The Twelfth House

MaeMae · Apr 24, 2012

jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.

Anachiel · Apr 24, 2012

MaeMae said:
jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.

Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.

JUPITERASC · Apr 24, 2012

MaeMae said:
jupiter, do you consider an "active" 12th house by it's ruler? more important than the residents doing the thinking and feeling.
Say Cap is on 12th and saturn's in 9th and what we have here is an excellent researcher, academic or philosopher.
no number of planets in 12th will support itself without help that way. the lost ones, floundering.
when in doubt, harness rulerships over placements.

Anachiel said:
Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.

Another drive-by shooting in the haze... Siriusly though MaeMae you raise a good point - and so does Anachiel obviously.

I use whole sign btw so fwiw then Cap 12th MUST mean Aquarius 1st.

Aquarius Ascendant then is influenced by helpful trine aspect from strong Libra Saturn Exalted in 9th...

so far none of this is necessarily linked to career...

Venus disposits Libra Saturn so Venus house/sign location important. In this case, IF Venus in 10th THEN 9th house Libra Saturn links to career

MaeMae IF you do NOT use whole sign houses then we need a natal chart for complete clarity regarding this question BUT can we find clarity in the hazy 12th?

Omnisphericus said:
1. The good or bad signified by a house emanates from the ruler of the house.
This is the basic rule. The ruler of the house is giver of the material of the house.

Zoller gives the example of his own chart where he has Combusted Mercury in 11th, ruler of 4th. He comments that this kind of placement brings adversity to ones home and dwellings.

5. Examine the planets which most closely aspects the Ascendant. These planets add to the whole Primary Motivation thing.

Planets aspecting the Ascendant represent powers the native can use in the world.

6. The Ruler of the Ascendant by its house position tells you where (what area of life) the native will seek to realize his/her Primary Motivation.

Look also at all 5 dignity rulers in the place of the ASC. The Almuten and Exalted ruler are almost as significant as the domicile ruler (sometimes even more).

The Ruler of the Ascendant (as well as the other rulers) by its nature and zodiacal state shows the methods the native will use and the success or failure of the drive.

The primary motivation is great deal of what we unconsciously and often consciously seek for. Once that motivation is broken or someone interrupt it, we seek to fix that in the every possible way we can do that.

I will continue with the tips in my next post.

i.e. For your example MaeMae, Libra Saturn is ruler of the Aquarius Ascendant which also shows the Primary Motivation of this person

MaeMae · Apr 24, 2012

Anachiel said:
Hijacking for a sec....well, really just a drive by....
The 12th will not point to career....by itself.....or, maybe, anytime. How did we go from the 12th haze to the career thing? It has nothing to do with career. Gah! Don't throw that hot mess out there.

no hot mess. saturn ruler of 12th and placed in 9th with planets in 12th would lend itself to serious research and study of non-material world ~ giving the planets within, a purpose for study.
there are other " institutions " than psych wards and jails and crack houses.
and what the f*** do you care if i muddy it? you guys are already knee deep in muck.
as if.....

Anachiel · Apr 24, 2012

You're making me laugh, MaeMae.

Well hell! Why not a cemetary then? Undertaker fits perfectly with what you are saying.

MaeMae · Apr 24, 2012

you're stretching it, Anachiel...
i used what i thought was a clear example of structured academia where 12th house planets might express themselves best because of house rulership.
academia is as "other worldly" as you can get.

which many of you have proven, i might add....

(i'll check in again at post 800 to see if you guys have made any progress in your 12th house strides of evolved ego~lessness.
right now, your thought boxes seem as tiny as any jail cell i've ever seen...

poyi · Apr 24, 2012

MaeMae said:
no hot mess. saturn ruler of 12th and placed in 9th with planets in 12th would lend itself to serious research and study of non-material world ~ giving the planets within, a purpose for study.
there are other " institutions " than psych wards and jails and crack houses.
and what the f*** do you care if i muddy it? you guys are already knee deep in muck.
as if.....

I support MaeMae. My empty 12th house Leo cusp, ruler Sun is in 3rd house conjunct Mercury and Saturn as part of the Scorpio Stellium; Sun sextile AC Virgo, while Mars is the traditional ruler of Scorpio including Pluto, Saturn, Sun, Mercury and Mars exalts in Capricorn Moon, Conjunct Libra Venus.

I really do think it affected my career as a nurse working in hospital. By the way, some people with planets physically in the 12th house at time using this 12th house's energy by actually working in charity, institution and hospital. Need to look at the whole chart.

View attachment 28873

SniperBomber328 · Apr 25, 2012

MaeMae said:
you're stretching it, Anachiel...
i used what i thought was a clear example of structured academia where 12th house planets might express themselves best because of house rulership.
academia is as "other worldly" as you can get.

which many of you have proven, i might add....

(i'll check in again at post 800 to see if you guys have made any progress in your 12th house strides of evolved ego~lessness.
right now, your thought boxes seem as tiny as any jail cell i've ever seen...

I just have to say I laughed at this for a good five minutes. It's true, after so many posts no one has agreed upon (or at least found a level of comprimise or reasoning) on issues regarding the 12th house. Perhaps no one ever will, I mean it's the house of the unseen right?

The 12th house wants to remain a secret and will remain to do so....no? I hope everyone can find a middle-ground sooner, rather than later. That way everyone can leave the poor 12th house alone.

Judy_AzVirgo · Apr 25, 2012

Anachiel said:
Personally, I think unless you have an ACTIVE 12th house, not a bunch of planets in the 12th or some other lame natal event but, an ACTIVE 12th house, then none of us are really qualified to speak about the "real world" or how positive we've "handled" it. It's moot.

Now, you want to know the 12th house? Then go to where the 12th house is and meet the people that LIVE in the 12th house; prisons, institutions, secluded lonely places, places where large animals roam (think elephants and, more locally, horses which by the way are all endangered and hunted and probably live in fear if I may anthopomorphize for a moment). Of course, most people don't won't or can't do this so, comments about it are really, at best, trivialized and uninformed.

What was true THEN is the same NOW. Nothing has changed except the scenery (and the fact that we can kill more people, animals and things, faster, and more efficiently than back in the days of camels as one poster put it.) BUT, people are still the same, same needs, weakness, dreams and desires. Humans have evolved.....I'm sorry, I ran out thoughts on that. Where have they evolved besides tools? And who would recognize an evolved person it if it landed in front of them?

And, AGAIN, the 12th house is NOT the only house in/out there. However, stripping it of it's essential (albeit, traditional) meaning by those who can sit, free and relatively well-heeled and philosophise about it does nothing for those who really MAY have an ACTIVE 12th house and need more than fluff to keep them safe or free. If you are free and well-heeled it is safe to say you have no idea, really, about the 12th.

Perhaps my hang-up while we are hanging out in the 12th is that I even care what people think about the 12th. Why should I? I'm not here to convince or convert. But, it makes for almost non-existant conversation if we cannot evaluate our own perspectives through discussion.

The key word is perspective, however. The 12th IS the 12th regardless what people think about it. One really has to be objective to see what is going on rather than just blaming astrology or the ancients for being wrong, or primitive or out-of-date. Perhaps it's just plain ol' denial.

"Things are tough all over, cupcake. It rains on the just and the unjust alike."
-Sally, from Watchmen

Following your thought, we're all incapable of doing a chart interpretation for a client who has an "active" 12th house unless we have our own "active" 12th house. I think the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life is worth consideration, if it can help lift some of the fog. Otherwise, since I can't imagine what it feels like to be permanently locked up, I guess I'll need to visit the Phoenix zoo so I can do natal charts for elephants and try to share their pain.

Caro · Apr 25, 2012

for those with 12th House planets jjust keep sending the love! :- ) and help them release.
sure we can all list suffering. it likes the chant of a mob. and 50 people said 'crucify him'/thank you!
so what is it that' you' do to alleviate the 12th h suffering you percieve.how do you bring the light in that is the hard part.

just as an aside I sent a letter to World Wildlife Fund to complain about the King of Spain shooting and killing elephants. They are looking into it.
This was clearly one of my more lucid moments between drugs/drink/alcohol/dodging the bullets/

like the ocean - it seems some people think they can dump anything in the 12th House.
some placements are cool and trendy and some are not.

Carris · Apr 25, 2012

Judy_AzVirgo said:
Rapt - There does seem to be a lot of that going around in many threads on this website, with people quoting ancient sources that may or may not be relevant to the experiences of people in today's world. I think your description of the 12th house is very clear and direct. Carris makes some excellent points, as well. I agree that suffering/sorrow and self-undoing are relics of bygone eras (camels, anyone?), and that the matters of the house can be far more positive for those who stop fearing it and start living it. It needn't be a "weak" house!

All astrologers have probably known someone who has been burdened in some way by the 12th house, through imprisonment, long-term hospitalization, and other negative manifestations. These types of experiences can be aggravated by aspect, transit, or other means, rather than simply because planet(s) occupy the 12th house. I would hope we've all seen people who handle the house's energy in more positive ways, as you do.

Thanks Judy

Yes those interpretations no longer apply. I don't think they were accurate in the first place. Those astrologers did no proper research before propounding their theories and postulations. And they obviously had a very low rate of accuracy of their predictions - or why would they keep coming up with more and more convoluted and arbitrary methods of predictions. Besides that, how do we know if they really got accurate birth times - since clocks were few and far between - and most of the populace were illiterate - and all calculations had to be done by hand. What the astrologer considered unfortunate might have actually been very fortunate for the person himself - its a matter of perspective. Besides, is there any statistical research at all that shows people with a prominent 12th are imprisoned /incarcerated /hospitalized or any of the other interpretations?

On the contrary, Gauquelin found planets in 12th to be very influential in determining a person's career, vocation, psychology. I posted a quote on this thread which showed that the chaldeans considered planets rising in the 12th to be very influential on a person's fate - jupiter, venus and moon rising in the 12th indicated a very fortunate life. Many presidents, including president Obama (jupiter and saturn in 12th) have prominent 12th houses.

And: The world is no where near the same. Our culture, values, thinking have changed completely from then. For example - being born out of wedlock is no longer a problem or the scandal it used to be. Neither is getting a divorce or being homosexual. There are so many professions which are available now - that no one needs to feel trapped into anything. I read somewhere that a person with strong uranus used to be considered weird and unfortunate - but now is considered very fortunate because it indicates talent and career in the latest high technology - and now there are so many colleges that can teach this technology - whereas earlier the poor native would have suffered from the lack of knowledge. In todays world, only very dogmatic, conservative, regressive, repressive, closed societies would consider anything to be unfortunate.

I believe in this:

"Compassion comes when you accept that each person has taken a different spiritual path to your own, and people spiritually choose what they wish to experience for an incarnational reason, you suspend all judgment. From this viewpoint, you understand what is happening, because a person’s beliefs, behaviour, and actions are the incarnational conditions they chose to experience during their lifetime. You understand that every soul volunteers to participate in every event or situation in their personal lives."

I also believe in this quote from Dolores Cannon: "There is no evil, no devil, no hell. There are only lessons to be learnt. Earth is only a school that we souls decide to attend. Each lifetime is a class with many lessons to be learned. You cannot go on to the next class until you have learned the lessons of this one. This as a school where you cannot skip a grade but you can certainly have to repeat a grade until you get it right – no matter how many lifetimes it takes. If you didn’t get it right this time around, then you will be presented with the SAME problems and lessons until you get it."

If we are here to learn, then everything, all the houses and planets are here to teach us. How can anything really be unfortunate in the long run?

MaeMae · Apr 25, 2012

i can't post a chart on phone, but here is an example some of you might appreciate. if anyone is willing to post this chart ~ advanced thanks ~ it might be interesting in this discussion.
JS
4-23-65
3:45 am
santa monica, ca

this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life. as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District. His father committed suicide when he was 13 years old.
he has spent 3 separate terms in prison, a total of 16 years combined.
for past 5 years, he has been well employed, is buying his home and has found the institution of "hard work" with a very large construction firm, to be quite satisfactory. he has a 401k, savings and promotion opportunities.
he has not been involved in criminal activity since his last release from prison, other than he still "chips" at his drug of choice.
he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself.
~ anyway ~ it would be interesting to see practical application of this discussion...

JUPITERASC · Apr 25, 2012

Judy_AzVirgo said:
Following your thought, we're all incapable of doing a chart interpretation for a client who has an "active" 12th house unless we have our own "active" 12th house. I think the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life is worth consideration, if it can help lift some of the fog. Otherwise, since I can't imagine what it feels like to be permanently locked up, I guess I'll need to visit the Phoenix zoo so I can do natal charts for elephants and try to share their pain.

Clearly you have some sympathy for elephants in Phoenix zoo - however, perhaps you would like to consider a visit to the "Death Row" area of a penitentiary that houses inmates condemned to death and chat with some humans in order to assist "the exploration of matters of the 12th (or any other house) and how it plays out in real life"

poyi · Apr 25, 2012

MaeMae said:
i can't post a chart on phone, but here is an example some of you might appreciate. if anyone is willing to post this chart ~ advanced thanks ~ it might be interesting in this discussion.
JS
4-23-65
3:45 am
santa monica, ca

this person had been a drug addict, alcoholic & dealer most of his life. as a school kid, he was dx'd with ADHD and spent K-8 in the same special needs class with the same teacher in L.A. Unified School District. His father committed suicide when he was 13 years old.
he has spent 3 separate terms in prison, a total of 16 years combined.
for past 5 years, he has been well employed, is buying his home and has found the institution of "hard work" with a very large construction firm, to be quite satisfactory. he has a 401k, savings and promotion opportunities.
he has not been involved in criminal activity since his last release from prison, other than he still "chips" at his drug of choice.
he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself.
~ anyway ~ it would be interesting to see practical application of this discussion...

Here is your chart

12th house Pisces, traditional ruler is Jupiter and modern ruler is Neptune. Jupiter 0 Gemini 12 in detriment 2nd house, Neptune Rx conjunct Pluto Rx and Uranus Rx both malefic in 6th house, work and co-worker/health in the sign of health and service to others or provide service to other.

Saturn opposite Pluto Rx at 0 approaching aspect exact degree. Saturn opposite Uranus Rx and Mars Rx in Virgo.

In term of addiction, Neptune trine Saturn, Quintile Mars Rx, biQuintile Mercury.Quintile and biQuintile usually means native's Special Talent...in his case as addiction....very interesting.

Did he sell drugs in the past?That was the reason he got into jail?

Mercury inconjunct Uranus Rx and Pluto Rx, Mercury rules 6th house but Mars ruled Mercury and 3rd house where Rahu/NN is located obsession of the 3rd house?

You said :"he will tell you that his criminal convictions came because he was protecting others and took the rap himself."

Gemini Jupiter 2nd square Virgo Mars approaching aspect, perfected at the age of 9.Capricorn Moon detriment, Sesquisquare Uranus Rx, Pluto Rx (exact degree), and NN
Capricorn Moon semi-square Saturn in 12th (exact degree)

Well.... I am not too good at looking at the whole chart. So far these are what I see.

sandstone · Apr 25, 2012

greybeard,

thanks for the civil exchange on sigmund freuds chart.. i like the fact we can converse using a different house system and arrive at similar conclusions regardless.. this is one of the many reasons i like to see chart data given, if for no other reason it gives us a chance to process the info in our own manner of interpretation.

maemae,

i haven't figured out how to post charts, but your example sounds like an interesting one.

here is a chart for someone who i think qualifies for discussion on this thread... he is born in 1917 - the year of the saturn/neptune conjunction that i was mentioning on my last few posts.. this conjunction is high up near the midheaven, while moon in virgo in the 12th house by whole-sign 11th by placidus rules the midheaven and the 10th house saturn.. mercury rules the moon from the 8th in conjunction to jupiter, while moon applies directly to mars which is also in the 8th.. a fair amount of 8th house focus - 3 by whole-sign, 5 by placidus.. many things could be said about this chart, but i will quote from astrodatabank- a learning tool that hopefully many here will find a useful tool to work with..

"Plagued by constant illness and forever scarred in his boyhood by an absentee father and a cold, remote mother, he emerged as a rogue who was by turns funny, raunchy and charming. His biographers paint a picture of a dysfunctional family...."
http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Kennedy,_John_F.

MaeMae · Apr 25, 2012

poyi - so kind! but i typo'd. above data (date/hour is incorrect. should be:
3-23-65 @ 3:40 am
i'm sorry.
as soon as i looked at chart, i realized my error.
are you willing to change it?
3-23-65
3:40 am
my moment of distraction.
a thousand pardon's and thank you's.

JUPITERASC · Apr 25, 2012

Carris said:
Thanks Judy Yes those interpretations no longer apply. I don't think they were accurate in the first place. Those astrologers did no proper research before propounding their theories and postulations. And they obviously had a very low rate of accuracy of their predictions - or why would they keep coming up with more and more convoluted and arbitrary methods of predictions

That is solely your opinion Carris which furthermore is a sweeping generalization, unsubstantiated by any evidence from quoted sources

Carris said:
Besides that, how do we know if they really got accurate birth times - since clocks were few and far between

Exactly, the same question may be directed towards anyone requesting interpretation of their natal chart today in the 21st Century... i.e. how accurate is ANY alleged time of birth? :smile:

Carris said:
- and most of the populace were illiterate - and all calculations had to be done by hand.

just because someone is not officially 'educated' does not mean they are unintelligent. You have no proof that 'most of the populace' were unable to do basic mathematics.

In fact, their lack of computers is a testimony to the superior mathematical ability of astronomer astrologers of those times who were more than capable of calculating a natal chart unaided (unlike today's astrologers the vast majority of whom are unable to calculate natal charts without resorting to computer software)

Carris said:
What the astrologer considered unfortunate might have actually been very fortunate for the person himself - its a matter of perspective.

How many ancient astrological texts have been read and/or studied in any depth by you Carris?

Carris said:
Besides, is there any statistical research at all that shows people with a prominent 12th are imprisoned /incarcerated /hospitalized or any of the other interpretations?

On the contrary, Gauquelin found planets in 12th to be very influential in determining a person's career, vocation, psychology. I posted a quote on this thread which showed that the chaldeans considered planets rising in the 12th to be very influential on a person's fate - jupiter, venus and moon rising in the 12th indicated a very fortunate life. Many presidents, including president Obama (jupiter and saturn in 12th) have prominent 12th houses.

an ongoing discussion on this thread is currently exploring a serious challenge to the Gauquelin data - here's a recent post on the matter

spock said:
.......More recently Geoffrey Dean thinks he has a non-astrological explanation for the Gauquelin findings, which he calls social attribution. He thinks parents, especially during the 19th century and especially in the rural areas from which much of the Gauquelin data was drawn, have tended to avoid reporting births on dates or for times considered unlucky or evil, such as Halloween, Friday the 13th, midnight, etc., and have tended to prefer fortunate dates. Also, he claims that following almanacs in which rising, culminating and setting times are given was much more common then than now. I have read his arguments carefully since I last wrote here and there is something about them that bothers me, but I'll need to reread (and ponder) several more times before I can get clear on it. It's a serious challenge, not to be taken lightly. I'm not entirely convinced, but neither am I willing to dismiss his statistics and the interpretation he puts on them until I understand both more fully.

Carris you then comment

Carris said:
And: The world is no where near the same. Our culture, values, thinking have changed completely from then. For example - being born out of wedlock is no longer a problem or the scandal it used to be. Neither is getting a divorce or being homosexual. There are so many professions which are available now - that no one needs to feel trapped into anything. I read somewhere that a person with strong uranus used to be considered weird and unfortunate - but now is considered very fortunate because it indicates talent and career in the latest high technology - and now there are so many colleges that can teach this technology - whereas earlier the poor native would have suffered from the lack of knowledge. In todays world, only very dogmatic, conservative, regressive, repressive, closed societies would consider anything to be unfortunate.

On the contrary Carris, I agree with dr. farr's recent useful comments on the 12th house which are as follows

dr. farr said:
To me, it can mean persons in bondage: legal, financial, marital, fettered by chronic disease, debts, etc; also "wage slaves" locked into jobs they dislike but from which then cannot free themselves; to me it can also mean bondage to habits/compulsions/obsessions, from which it is not easy to free oneself.

sandstone · Apr 25, 2012

as for the 12th and slavery and etc. etc.. perhaps another way for those so attached to the old method of doing astrology is to see about 'modernizing' the terminology without going so far as to referring to yourself as 'modern' astrologer, lol... perhaps this is what modern astrology has tried to do over the years in spite of the slavish appearance of those who want to 'modernize' while still seeing themselves as 'traditionalists'.. what a merry go round..

poyi · Apr 25, 2012

MaeMae said:
poyi - so kind! but i typo'd. above data (date/hour is incorrect. should be:
3-23-65 @ 3:40 am
i'm sorry.
as soon as i looked at chart, i realized my error.
are you willing to change it?
3-23-65
3:40 am
my moment of distraction.
a thousand pardon's and thank you's.

MAN....I took half an hour to look at a wrong chart... :crying:

Here you are~

MaeMae · Apr 25, 2012

omg!
talk about my own neptunian confusion...
i had his chart time reversed and one day off. please reference chart time/date is 3-23-65 @ 3:40 am.
however, still one and poyi and sandstone, et al.
i hope that you will see fit to accommodate my blunder. apologies.
however, the noted planetary aspect discussion on chart is spot on thus far.

~annoyed with myself and micro-cell-phone capabilities

The Twelfth House

MaeMae

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Anachiel

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