Do you agree with this? (House Positions = Sign Placements)

VonFinck

Active member
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong. Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?
 

waybread

Well-known member
There is a big problem in modern astrology, (which is the kind I practice,) of conflating signs and houses. You read these cookbooks that say something like "Venus in Aries or the first house. Ok, but then the Aries Venus is actually in the 12th house. You read further and find a description of "Venus in Pisces or the 12th house." Which is completely different. Venus in Aries is not like Venus in Pisces. The 12th house is not like the first house This gets pretty crazy-making.

I think a better approach is to consider that:

1. A sign says how or in what manner a planet operates.

2. A house says where or in what domain of life a planet operates.


So, if we've got Venus in Aries, we consider that Aries is the cardinal fire sign, ruled by Mars. Venus takes the initiative, and generally with some enthusiasm or action orientation. In a woman's chart, this might be the tomboy or feisty lady. In a heterosexual man's chart, the feisty lady suits him a whole lot better than Ms. Pink N. Fluffy. Venus also says something about our tastes, as she rules the arts.

The first house indicates one's body and outward personality. If we found Venus in Aries here, we'd expect an attractive (Venus) person, but one who was assertive (Mars ruled.)

But the 12th house is the "house of self-undoing," the house of people who are shut-in or sequestered in some way. Very different from the first house of one's body and personality. 12th house people tend to be fairly private. So if we move Venus here, we might get a woman who either prefers to be solo, or finds herself single, as both Aries and the 12th incline in that direction. In either sex, we might find someone who finds it tough to establish a relationship with a partner, because it is hard to put oneself out there.

Pisces is different yet again from Aries. The mutable water sign, ruled by Jupiter (traditional) and Neptune (modern) may prefer to daydream or meditate, with none of Aries' martial qualities.

I hope this makes sense. There are a few areas where signs and houses match up a lot better. I think Sagittarius and the 9th are one of the better match-ups, whereas Aries and the first house are about the worst. The rising sign is so important, and unless someone actually has Aries rising, their body and personality will probably be very different from Aries.
 

wilsontc

Staff member
astro-sentence, to VonFinck

VonFinck,

An even simpler way to think of it is as an "astro-sentence" where sign modifies planet focused on house. Using your example:

Aries modifies Venus focused on the 12th house
Action modifies Relationships/Values focused on Spirituality (12th house)

You get the picture of a take-charge person in relationships and personal values when it comes to their spirituality - their relationships and values take on a spiritual tone to them

Using your other example:
Venus modifies Pisces focused on the 12th house
Relationships/Values modifies Spirituality focused on Spirituality

You get the picture of a person who has relationships and values that have a strong awareness of spirituality

More about using "astro-sentences" in the link below this post.

Astro-sentencing,

Tim
 
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waybread

Well-known member
Re: astro-sentence, to VonFinck

Tim, I totally agree with the concept of an astrological grammar, although I might read the 12th house a little differently.

I wrote:

1. A sign says how or in what manner a planet operates.

2. A house says where or in what domain of life a planet operates.

Accordingly, a planet operates like the noun or subject of a sentence.

A sign operates like an adverb or adjective, modifying the noun.

A house operates like a prepositional phrase, such as: "in my marriage" (7th house,) or "with my friends" (11th house.)

The 12th house can be very spiritual, but more in the sense of solo mysticism, or in Vedic astrology, the release of one's attachments as the prerequisite for obtaining enlightenment. It is a good fit for a nun in a convent, where it has that sense of being confined. The 9th house deals with conventional religion, as in a Catholic attending mass.

Not everyone picks up on the spiritual dimensions of the 12th house: my daughter has a 12th house sun-Mercury and she is not a spiritual person. A number of political leaders have 12th house suns, which I think comes from their identifying with a cause or constituency greater than themselves.

With the 12th house Venus in Aries example, I think something like yoga would be a good use, because it would pick up on sign-ruler Mars and its athleticism, while creating the opportunity for a spiritual practice. Ideally, Venus in this house could thereby open up to some of Venus's rulerships, like feelings of peace and love.

The 12th house rules people who are shut-in in some way or otherwise misfortunate, so an alternative use of that Aries Venus might be working in a VA hospital (Mars rules soldiers, hospitals are places of confinement.)

But to give an example of an astrological sentence using a 12th house Aries Venus:

"I get enjoyment (Venus) from doing challenging (Aries) yoga exercises alone in my room (12th house) every morning."

Does a planet modify the sign, or does the sign modify the planet?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why?
Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

Well said :smile:


A PLANET acts

A HOUSE shows the area of life
in which the planet acts


as well as
how strongly the planet can act

the quality of the planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of the PLANET


houses-labeled.gif



But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method
but I'm still new to this
and I could be wrong.
Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?
Each astrologer has their own individual opinion regarding methodology :smile:
so it is individual choice regarding choice of method
you are not necessarily 'wrong'
- some astrologers would agree with you
others would disagree
 

wilsontc

Staff member
sign modifies planet, to waybread

waybread,

You asked:
"I get enjoyment (Venus) from doing challenging (Aries) yoga exercises alone in my room (12th house) every morning."

Does a planet modify the sign, or does the sign modify the planet?

I think of it as sign modifies planet. To me prepositional phrases are too "messy" (must be a Virgo thing). So you get "challenging enjoyment" focused on spirituality/ aloneness (using your alternative word suggestion). I like to use "spirituality" simply because it seems to me as one of the best ways to use Pisces/Neptune/12th house. As you say, more frequently this is used for deception/aloneness/addictions/escapism/etc.

Astro-simply,

Tim
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
Originally Posted by VonFinck

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method
but I'm still new to this
and I could be wrong.
Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?
[COLOR=Navy[COLOR=Navy]Each astrologer has their own individual opinion regarding methodology :smile:
so it is individual choice regarding choice of method
you are not necessarily 'wrong'
- some astrologers would agree with you
others would disagree
[/COLOR]

JUPITERASC. You are surely not saying that you would not disagree with astrologers who follow the idea that a sign has the same meaning as its natural house???

If that is so, does that mean that I lose all worldly consciousness in my Pisces on 7th house cusp marriage, that my married life revolves around hospitals, ashrams, rehab. centres, and the like, and that I shall be assured of a place in the great wide Cosmos with all my ancestors through the circumstances of my marriage....or after it???

I wonder where my 3rd house under influence of Scorpio will lead me.:devil:

No;..... surely not?????.:wink::smile:
 

aquarius7000

Well-known member
Hi,

You may want to remember a simple formula.

The planet = What we do or action (verb)

The sign = How or the quality (adverb)

The house = Where or which area of life we do it in

Venus (what = I love) in Aries (how = passionately) in the 5th house (where = hobbies and pleasure, e.g. music).

Since the sign provides the energy, it colours the planet with its own energy for the planet to perform its function (Venus = love or value, the Sun = focus, the Moon = to feel and to nurture, etc.) in a particular area of life or the house it is placed in.
 

blacksun?

Well-known member
If we look at people with Venus or Sun in 12, we see a lot of expressive power.
The 12th house is rather our reserves, our most personal gifts. We withdraw into that house because of our rich inner world. Nothing to do with forced seclusion.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
JUPITERASC. You are surely not saying
that you would not disagree with astrologers
who follow the idea that a sign has the same meaning as its natural house???

If that is so, does that mean that I lose all worldly consciousness in my Pisces on 7th house cusp marriage,
that my married life revolves around hospitals, ashrams, rehab. centres, and the like,
and that I shall be assured of a place in the great wide Cosmos with all my ancestors through the circumstances of my marriage
....or after it???

I wonder where my 3rd house under influence of Scorpio will lead me.:devil:

No;..... surely not?????.:wink::smile:
There are more than thirty house systems
with just fourteen of the more popular available as options on astro.com
as well as multiple astrological methodologies such as
Sidereal, Tropical, Chinese, Vedic to name just a few
and so
Surely you are not disagreeing that each astrologer has their own individual opinion and methodology :smile:
because it is obvious that astrologers do all have their own methodological preferences
to which all astrologers are entitled


so clearly it is individual choice regarding choice of method
- some astrologers would agree with that choice
others would disagree with that choice

 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house.
They'll act like an Aries in a relationship
but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits.
(Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)


Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description,
pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.


I personally don't agree with this method
but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong.
Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?
To be clear then using the analogy of a 'performance' or 'play' :smile:

we have

12 basic 'backdrops' to the theatre or movie of a natal chart
Aries, Taurus, Gemini, Cancer, Leo, Virgo, Libra, Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn, Aquarius, Pisces


wheel-layers-3d.jpg



Each of those 12 'backdrops'
- dependent on time of birth -

is pinned as an individual 'background or cusp'
on each of the 12 basic 'scenes' aka 'houses'





houses-labeled.gif

1. Birth/Self/Appearance/Vitality/Strength


2. Resources, material comforts, earnings
and all issues concerning wealth or of a financial nature
including the manner of attaining wealth, personal goods and belongings,
assets, income, gain, money lent to others, profit (or loss when afflicted),
support and assistance from others. http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h2.html


3 Brothers and sisters, cousins or general members of the family
(not parents, they belong to the 4th scene aka house).
Neighbors and local neighborhood. The environment in which we live and work.
Short journeys or those made on a regular basis.
Letters, rumors, reports, messages and messengers.
Communications generally. Newspapers, magazines, telephones, postal service.
Written deeds and contracts. Speeches and debates.
Our ability to express ourselves and communicate to others.
Languages, mobility skills and self-expression http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h3.html


and so on..........



each 'scene' aka 'house'
features
planets as 'actors' 'performing'
with different 'backdrops' of the 12 'signs' dependent on time of birth
within any one of the 12 basic 'scenes' or 'houses'


SAME PLANET MAY PLAY DIFFERENT ROLES
Venus and Jupiter are in general thought of as the 'good guys'
Mars and Saturn are traditionally the 'villains'
Mercury can be the 'dodgy' sometimes good
sometimes not so good
dependent on the company Mercury keeps via conjunction, phase and aspect :smile:


Scenes often 'merge'
as planets in each others domiciles
influence the 'script'



keep in mind also our "travelling players"
aka transiting planets
putting in temporary appearances
transiting MOON is "on the scene" for approximately only 2.5 days
before travelling on to the next venue
MERCURY puts in an appearance "for one week only" then on to the next scene
after nineteen days
VENUS goes to the next stage
SUN sticks around for a month
MARS fifty-seven days
JUPITER a year
SATURN two and a half years
adding layers to the drama
an analysis may be as complex or as basic as one prefers





seven-ages-of-technology-in-education-2-728.jpg
 

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
In actual astrology

Sign =/ House
Planet =/ House
Sign =/ Planet

Aries for example, is a sign that also has solar qualities such as enthusiasm, creativity, etc. That's why the Sun has also dignity in Aries. An Aries isn't the Mars energy personified in a sign. Aries is seen traditionally as a good sign, while Mars is a malefic planet. In what part in the description of the sign of Aries have you ever read in a decent astrology source that Aries modifies the personality (1st house) of the person? Never.


People also commit other mistakes such as

Sun in Virgo in 5th house = You have a Virgo Sun with Leo-qualities

This is not true. At all. It's plain stupid to think so.

People also do stuff like: Mars is in the 7th house. Libra=7th house so Mars is in damaged since Libra is the detriment of Mars, therefore Mars is damaged in the 7th house. No, no, no, no.

If you want to see what the favorite house of a planet see then check planetary joys

Which would be

Mars - 6th house
Venus - 5th house
Moon - 3rd house
Mercury - 1st house
Saturn - 12th house
Jupiter - 11th house
Sun - 9th house
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member

In actual astrology

Sign =/ House
Planet =/ House
Sign =/ Planet

Aries for example, is a sign that also has solar qualities such as enthusiasm, creativity, etc.
That's why the Sun has also dignity in Aries.
An Aries isn't the Mars energy personified in a sign.
Aries is seen traditionally as a good sign, while Mars is a malefic planet.
In what part in the description of the sign of Aries have you ever read in a decent astrology source
that Aries modifies the personality (1st house) of the person? Never.
Many have Aries 1st House yet are not all identical personalities

because

the quality of the planet's expression
is influenced by the SIGN location of the PLANET
and clearly

MARS ruler of ARIES may be placed in any of twelve signs
and
MARS ruler of ARIES may be placed in any of twelve houses
obviously
that makes the difference
:smile:
People also commit other mistakes such as

Sun in Virgo in 5th house = You have a Virgo Sun with Leo-qualities

This is not true. At all. It's plain stupid to think so.

People also do stuff like:
Mars is in the 7th house.
Libra=7th house so Mars is in damaged since Libra is the detriment of Mars, therefore Mars is damaged in the 7th house.
No, no, no, no.

If you want to see what the favorite house of a planet
see then check planetary joys

Which would be

Mars - 6th house
Venus - 5th house
Moon - 3rd house
Mercury - 1st house
Saturn - 12th house
Jupiter - 11th house
Sun - 9th house

joys.gif
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1e.html
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
The most ancient planetary joys (Manilius 14 CE), some of which were switched by the mid 2nd cnetury, were:

1st house = Mercury
3rd house = Moon
4th house = Saturn
6th house = Mars
9th house = Sun
10th house = Venus
11th house = Jupiter

Traditional astrologers (from the 3rd century to the present) use the planetary joys as given above by JA (Saturn switched to the 12th house, Venus switched to the 5th house) I, however, have continued to use the "original" (historically oldest) planetary joys as given in Manilius (NOT because they are the oldest, but because they make sense to me, and seem to work-when looking at dignities-quite well)
 

NRodin

Well-known member
I agree with the thread maker's outlook almost completely. I just see the signs to be the characteristics, while the planets are the resources the signs draw archetypes from in order to develop characteristics, and the houses exist because we are all bound to experience the entirety of the Zodiac throughout our destined experiences (the Houses). Our Zodiac signs and planets, or lack thereof, give us special qualities and make us unique.

I believe we all experience the Zodiac through the Houses, and the houses do represent the Zodiac signs. I'm kind of tired of people saying they're not correlated, and some saying they're overtly the same: they're expanded versions of the Zodiac sign.

If you have Aries in the 12th house, you will take on an Aries approach when dealing with relationships, and the 12th house will create a secretive exterior surrounding love due to the level of deep seated insecurity imbedded within the 12th house, as nothing is certain in this house (love itself is a vague thing which means it meshes well with the 12th house)

Others may disagree but I think the first post is pretty well perfect.
 
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Cupid Arrow

Well-known member
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong. Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?

I found an article that uses this method.
Heres the article http://realitysandwich.com/148225/mars_neptune_orgasm_addiction_sharing_sexual_energies/
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Just wanna add my incentive.. :3

As we've all heard a million times, a planet in a sign determines how it expresses itself and a planet in a house determines where it expresses itself yada yada..

I kind of feel like the houses tell us what their complementary sign would be doing if they were on earth.

So like, if you put a full-fledged capricorn on earth what would that energy as a tangible entity be doing?? Well, the cappy would be doing activities related to the 10th house. 10th house is our life's work, reputation, and all that jazz. Capricorns work hard and want to make something of themselves; it only makes sense that they would want to pursue 10th house endevours.

So... for example, for my chart, I have Leo Sun in the 7th house. I'm a Leo doing Libra activities. So having my Sun in the 7th house seems very similar to a Libra because I'm doing Libra activities, BUT quite different because of the fact that I'm a Leo. I put my Leo energy into my relationships, or on this tangible plane called earth, my inner soul sun expression comes out most in the 7th house (relationships, marriage, contracts). Which again, makes me appear Libra, but not really.
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
Okay so Muchaco posted this on my 9th house or 8th house moon thread...

9th house Moon shows emotions openly and needs to go out and explore the world. A rather happy-go-lucky position, more interested in variety of experiences than quality of experience. 8th house Moon doesn't show emotions openly and needs a lot of time alone. A rather serious and no-nonsense position, more interested in quality (or depth) of experience than variety of experience.

His description literally sounds like what the moon would be in the signs.

I think we can all agree that the houses and signs can be used interchangeably on a superficial level.

Obviously if you dig deeper when reading someone's chart, the houses and signs are separate, but from a bird's eye view, they are pretty much the same.
 

Cupid Arrow

Well-known member
This is how I see it:

Ex. A person has Aries Venus in the 12th house. They'll act like an Aries in a relationship but their romantic relationships may have 12th traits. (Secretive, Spiritual, Forbidden, Unavailable Partners)

Why? Because the sign would be how you experience the energy and the house would be where.

But I've seen a lot of people do this:

Ex. Venus In Pisces/12th House > Description, pretty much saying the 12th house and Pisces are the same.

I personally don't agree with this method but I'm still new to this and I could be wrong. Do you think it's acceptable to interpret it that way?

I think you have to blend the house with the planet. Mars in Aries in the 1st house is different than Mars in LEO the 1st house, but it still is impulsive and independent, the expression is different because its Aries and Leo. Aries cardinal are headstrong, takes initiative. Leo fixed is dramatic and stubborn. And its in the 1H so its in the house of the self. Venus in Aries is still Arian but its in the 12H so the expression is different than an Aries in the 1H.
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
I think you have to blend the house with the planet.

Mars in Aries in the 1st house
is different than Mars in the 1st house,


but it still is impulsive and independent,
the expression is different because its Aries and Leo.
Aries cardinal are headstrong, takes initiative.
Leo fixed is dramatic and stubborn.
And its in the 1H so its in the house of the self.


Venus in Aries is still Arian
but its in the 12H
so the expression is different
than an Aries in the 1H.
tsmall illustrates the concept well
with her own chart
as follows :smile:

That is going to depend on what you mean by "more 12 house."

Best example I can give is my own chart.
I have a 12th house Sun at 2* Libra,
with the ASC at 14* Libra.
Make no mistake, it's a 12th house Sun,
but that it can actually "see" the ASC means that
...well, the nature of the Sun is to select,
and wanting to be in the 1st because you can see it taste it,
almost touch it, yet stuck behind the glass in the 12th
speaks differently than a Virgo Sun with Libra rising.

So if a planet in the 12th is described as being "behind the scenes,"
but a planet is in the 12th but the same sign as the ascendant,
its more like stuck behind the scenes
when you really want to be center stage.
 
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