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  #1  
Unread 04-22-2008, 09:25 AM
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lilly on saturn in 10th house

hi peeps

Okay
here is a question

saturn in 10th is in house of joy right?
so why does Lilly and Zakiel say that
saturn or south node in 10th house ususually deny honour as to person of quality and to vulgar little prosperity in a profession or

any ideas?
thanks
T

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Unread 04-22-2008, 09:45 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Hi Tik, I think Saturn is in his house of Joy in the 12th, not in the 10th.
Cheers, Star.
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Unread 04-22-2008, 09:48 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Okay thanks Starlink

but Saturn rules 10th house so it has to be some kind of accidental dignity not a debility

thanks
T
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Unread 04-22-2008, 11:33 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Yes, I would also think so, especially if he rules the 10th. Maybe he is bad only when he is not representing a querent, but only his job. So the person himself could be, lets say a nice Venus, but his job with that Saturn in there, could be less fantastic? Must look that up in Frawley. Maybe there is something else said by him. We should not take EVERYTHING Lilly writes as being the only true answer. He has been corrected by many modern horarists.
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Unread 04-22-2008, 07:52 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Quote:
but Saturn rules 10th house so it has to be some kind of accidental dignity not a debility
No, Saturn does not rule the Tenth house and gets no sort of special dignity other than the accidental dignity all planets receive when in an angular house. Also, I believe that snippet about Saturn's position in the Tenth is only appliciable to nocturnal charts. Though, I may be confusing it with something else, but I saw something very similar to this in a comparison of diurnal vs noctural chart interpretations.
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Unread 04-22-2008, 09:03 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

sorry Kai

you are right

Saturn rules Cappy .. Cappy is 10h house naturally

that is what i mean by saying special accidental dignity .. saturn is in its own house

Cheers
T
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Unread 04-22-2008, 10:58 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Tik
well, I don't know but I am very interested to find out cause my Saturn is elevated in the 10th H. conjucting my MC in Leo... Being 30ish Saturn is a very significant planet...
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Unread 04-22-2008, 11:20 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Wait, are we talking about horary or natal astrology here?

I know this was posted in the horary astrology board, but the conversation seems to be turning towards natal astrology...

If it's horary astrology, I'd have to agree with Kaiousei on this one; we shouldn't mix the astrological alphabet (i.e. tenth house = Capricorn = Saturn) with horary astrology. Although as he mentioned, Saturn does have accidental dignity in this house, although he would also have accidental dignity if he were in the first, fourth, or seventh house.

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Unread 04-22-2008, 11:46 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Arian

i am talking about horary not natal
i dont know why people bring up natal astrology

however, LIlly does mention that natural rulers should be considereed in horary astrology

T
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Unread 04-23-2008, 01:30 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Are you referencing a particular example question within Lilly's C.A.?
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Unread 04-23-2008, 02:11 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

No, Kai

there is no physical example. However

Lilly says this.. Ptolemy says this as well
i should have written down the page but i didnt

A king or a planet has dignity when it occupies a region that it rules or where it is exalted.

then
Lilly contadicts himself and says that Saturn in 10th is malefic

Raphael
says on page 100

... when a planet is in its own house, exaltation, or triplicity - that is essential
the latter are when any planet is in an angle and well aspect and not afflicted swift in motion increasing in light.

It is when a planet that may not be prominent but it is in a house of its own natural rulership.
They are in accidental dignity as well.
Mars 1st
Venus 2nd
Mercury 3rd
Moon 4th
Sun 5th
Mercury 6th
Venus 7th
Mars 8th
Jupiter 9th
Saturn 10th
Saturn 11th
Jupiter 12th

how can Saturn be debilitating when it is in its own house 10th house. Essentially it may be debiliated but it has some accidental dignity by being placed in its own house

Tik
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Unread 04-23-2008, 03:23 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Because you're using modern house rulers. Saturn has no affinity for the Tenth. In fact, that entire list you posted is incorrect. You based it off of the modern notion of Sign=House=Planet. This couldn't be more incorrect. In fact, this statement:

Quote:
It is when a planet that may not be prominent but it is in a house of its own natural rulership.
Is referring to this set-up:

Luna: Third, Seventh
Mercury: First, Sixth
Venus: Fifth, Twelfth
Sol: Ninth, Fourth, Eleventh
Mars: Sixth, Third, Tenth
Jupiter: Eleventh, Second, Ninth
Saturn: Twelfth, First, Eighth

This set-up refers to the stations in heaven where the planets rejoice. Those being their houses of joy and the houses they naturally co-signify. There is no connection with Saturn and the Tenth house as the modern set-up would have you believing.

It is impossible to take traditional sources and hold them to modern rules. They'll contradict every time. The only sort of dignity Saturn has the Tenth is the accidental dignity given to any planet in any of the four angular houses of heaven, as I said earlier. Saturn here can be seen as quite detrimental as he may very well be the highest poisted planet in the chart, which means he can "rule down" on all the other planets. If he is uncomfortable (afflicted by another planet, debilitated, etc), then he will rule with a lead fist, if he is comfortable, however, he could be quite a useful tool.

Hope this helped answer your question and cleared up any confusion.
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Unread 04-23-2008, 04:20 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Kai


as far as joys, you are wrong

Joys: This word was used two ways, which can lead to some confusion. One use was as a synonym for "exaltation." The second was an indicator of which house would be the top choice for a given planet. The joys by house are: Mercury = 1st House, Moon = 3rd House, Venus = 5th House, Mars = 6th House, Sun = 9th House, Jupiter = 11th House, and Saturn = 12th House.
http://www.leelehman.com/glossary_of_terms.html

have you seen this ?

http://astrologynotes.org/Accidental_Dignity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_dignity

page 121

Essential Dignity/house
if you find a planet in any of those signes we call his house or houses, he is the essentially strong, and we allow for that 5 dignities as Saturn in capcorn, jupiter in sagitarius

then in accidental dignities, Lilly says this
"accidentall fortitudes
in the MH or asce +5"

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/horary1e.html
Saturn only rejoys in 12th house .. okay fine

BUT my question remains

DOES SATURN GET EXTRA BOOST BY BEING IN 10th house IF IT IS A SIGNIFICATOR OF THE QUESTION? YES or NO.

How can SATURN be in the joy of 1st house?
When you get saturn in 1st house when it is NOT a significator, it is almost guarantee that the question will not work out as querent expects!

Alan Leo, who is semi-traditional astrologer says this

10th house
it is goveren by the sign of the cusp, its lord and in secondary sense the Sun and the Saturn
on 12th house he puts Venus and Jupiter
in 8th house he puts saturn and mars
in 7th house he puts moon and venus

What the h*ll is Secondary sense i dont know!

Tik
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Last edited by tikana; 04-23-2008 at 04:39 AM.
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Unread 04-23-2008, 05:27 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Quote:
as far as joys, you are wrong
No, Tik, I'm not incorrect. The planets rejoice in those houses listed above. The first house I listed was their house of joy, the houses following are the houses they naturally co-signify. I checked several astrological glossaries and could find no such double meaning, and when doing a search of the word "joy" in Tetrabiblios could not find it in any such context. Not saying the link is offering incorrect information, just that I can find nothing else to back it up.

Quote:
Saturn only rejoys in 12th house .. okay fine
No, Saturn only finds joy in the Twelfth house, however, he rejoices in two others as well. (It's kind of a sneaky, subtle difference, I know) These are given to us by Culpeper who states the very same thing I did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper "Astrological Judgment of Diseases
The Sun delighteth in the 4th, 9th & 11th houses.
The Moon rejoyceth in the 3rd and 7th houses.
Saturn rejoyceth in the Ascendant, 8th & 12th houses.
Jupiter rejoyceth in the 2nd, 9th and 11th houses.
Mars rejoyceth in the 3rd, 6th & 10th.
Venus rejoyceth in the 5th & 12th houses.
Mercury rejoyceth in the Ascendant & 6th.
I dub the case of the confusing planetary-specific benefical house placements closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikana
BUT my question remains

DOES SATURN GET EXTRA BOOST BY BEING IN 10th house IF IT IS A SIGNIFICATOR OF THE QUESTION? YES or NO.
This was actually not your question. If you're asking whether Saturn gains dignity for being in the Tenth house, the answer is an undeniable yes. Actually, I've answered this question three times now. This being the third.

Here was the first time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi
No, Saturn does not rule the Tenth house and gets no sort of special dignity other than the accidental dignity all planets receive when in an angular house.
And the second time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi
The only sort of dignity Saturn has the Tenth is the accidental dignity given to any planet in any of the four angular houses of heaven, as I said earlier.
Now, to answer your original question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikana
saturn in 10th is in house of joy right?
so why does Lilly and Zakiel say that
saturn or south node in 10th house ususually deny honour as to person of quality and to vulgar little prosperity in a profession or
We've already covered Saturn holds no sort of specific, Saturn-only dignity in the Tenth house. However, Saturn is the greater malefic, and so is found to be naturally unhelpful in this and any house unless somehow appeased through essential or accidental dignities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikana
How can SATURN be in the joy of 1st house?
When you get saturn in 1st house when it is NOT a significator, it is almost guarantee that the question will not work out as querent expects!
Well, obviously someone hasn't looked at my article. *wagging finger* :P Just kidding. However, you would have read that Saturn enjoys being in this house because he signifies the form and body (as Saturn signifies the bones and skin) which is also what the Ascendant signifies, the physical form of the native/querent. Saturn in the First can signify delays, as he can from anywhere, but the fact remains that he co-signifies and thus is capable of rejoicing in this house.

Quote:
Alan Leo, who is semi-traditional astrologer says this
You're joking, right? O.o

Quote:
10th house
it is goveren by the sign of the cusp, its lord and in secondary sense the Sun and the Saturn
on 12th house he puts Venus and Jupiter
in 8th house he puts saturn and mars
in 7th house he puts moon and venus
What he's saying is that you would first look at the Sign on the Tenth (let's say it's Pisces), so you'd look at that Lord - in this example - Jupiter. Obviously, this is the "accidental" lord of the house. Pisces is on the cusp, and so Jupiter "accidentally" signifies this house. However, the "essential" significator of the Tenth house is Mars as co-significator (Leo's assertion of Sol and Saturn are both incorrect, as neither planet has a natural connection with this house). So, you'd look at Jupiter first to get a good idea of what's going on, but then if you wanted more information you could look to Mars who naturally signifies this house. You could do this with any house using its natural co-significator as a secondary significator to the planet who rules the Sign on the cusp of the house like in the example I gave. That, specifically, is the secondary sense Leo is referring to.
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Last edited by Kaiousei no Senshi; 04-23-2008 at 05:30 AM.
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Unread 04-23-2008, 05:32 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Kai

thanks

i cant phrase the question right .. forget it ..

thanks again

Tik
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Unread 04-23-2008, 05:41 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

It's no problem. Just sleep on it and see if that helps. If it clicks, ask.
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Unread 04-23-2008, 05:53 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

saturn IS in accidental dignity in the 10th...so it IS a good place for saturn.....any place that makes saturn more comfortable is a good place to be.....

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Unread 04-23-2008, 10:20 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Yes Tik, Kai is right. Look in the internet, Skyscript horary Astrology course by Deborah Houlding.
Under Miscellaneous Terms (co-signifgicators of the houses) you can find a chart which shows you exactly in which houses the planets are rejoicing and where they are in Joy. Saturn in the 1st because he was the most important planet those days as well, then Jupiter in 2, Mars in 3, Sun in 4, Venus in 5 (where she also finds her Joy as only planet with both in the same house) Mercury in 6, Moon in 7. Then it starts all over again with Saturn in 8, Jupiter in 9, Mars in 10, Sun in 11 and Venus (yes Venus) in 12. these positions are all re.joicing positions, not JOY positions.
This scheme is based on the Chaldean order of the planets. So the re-joycing placements are like this because of the Chaldean order in this scheme, and not because it is the ruling planet of that house or sign.

Interesting and educational thread! Cheers, Star.

Last edited by starlink; 04-23-2008 at 10:23 AM.
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Unread 04-25-2008, 01:02 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Starlink

i was asking completely something else

but i found the answer in google books

cheers
Tik
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Unread 06-10-2008, 04:30 PM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Saturn in the 10th could mean 'an unsuccessful reading' according to a couple of posts I just read by Radu and AG. One of those old strictures against judgment, which really isn't.
Perhaps the querent won't listen to the answer.

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Unread 06-11-2008, 10:42 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Hi Barb, I did not know that! Thanks for letting us know about that. I am a bit occupied elsewhere these last weeks, lots to do,normal work and astrology consultations and now preparing to go on vacation till end of June ,so that's why I have not been so active lately. I will take Lilly along with me! Hope to be more active in July. Summertime is usually a bit lazy time, the sunshine does not really keep you indoors!

Cheers, Star.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 10:46 AM
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Re: lilly on saturn in 10th house

Barb

The issue is i mean was

in chapter about jobs, Lilly writes that having saturn in 10th is a restriction
but If you scroll through accidental dignity, he mentions that any planet on the angle is accidentley strenghtened! so my question was IS this a contradiction or an exception saturn giving 10th house or an issue invovling 10th house debilitation!
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