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  #1  
Unread 11-08-2007, 06:25 PM
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Red face Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

My son has lots of planets in his natal 12th house (i.e. Mars, Saturn, N. Node, Vesta, Moon & Jupiter consecutively). Can anyone give an interpretation? He also has his Moon/N.Node opposite Pluto rx which is in his 6th house. He is only 5 years old, and I am worried these aspects portend a difficult future for him. My ex-husband left us when my son was 3, and he and my son didn't get on at all - don't know if that gives any clues. Help!



Last edited by ALST123; 11-08-2007 at 06:27 PM.
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Unread 11-08-2007, 06:57 PM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

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Originally Posted by ALST123
My son has lots of planets in his natal 12th house (i.e. Mars, Saturn, N. Node, Vesta, Moon & Jupiter consecutively). Can anyone give an interpretation? He also has his Moon/N.Node opposite Pluto rx which is in his 6th house. He is only 5 years old, and I am worried these aspects portend a difficult future for him. My ex-husband left us when my son was 3, and he and my son didn't get on at all - don't know if that gives any clues. Help!
When you said "he didn't get on at all", do you mean that he didn't get along with his father, or that he was terribly hurt when his father left?

He is still a very little boy.

My gut reaction is that he is especially senstive emotionally to what goes on around him. First, Cancer rising is a very sensitive indication. When Cancer is involved, people tend to pick up much more than they show. He may, for instance, have an unusually vivid memory of things that happened to him at age three, or even younger.

In general, 12th house placements indicate shyness, lack of confidence. Your son would need a great deal of encouragement. If there was any violence at all in the home, even verbal violence (yelling, shouting, arguments), he would be especially sensitive to this.

I'm being very general because it is dangerous to play the "seer" and say too much without more information.

My number one worry would be that this child might learn to alternately hold everything in and then lash out because of what he mirrors, from seeing other people (mostly adults) who are themselves lashing out in some manner.

If I'm wrong, please correct me. He's still so young.

Gaer
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Unread 11-08-2007, 08:39 PM
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

I think the 12th House has been given a bum rap generally, as has Pisces. As being above the horizon it is hardly as unfortunate a House as tradition would have us believe as by progression the planets rise into the 11th and 10th, both of which are undoubtedly "fortunate" Houses.

In any event this looks like a pretty good chart to me, with all the planets except Pluto being elevated, an exalted Jupiter conjunct the ASC (while technically in the 12th it is a 1st House influence), and a nice sextile between Sun and Uranus, which is always fortunate for relationships and often indicates considerable popularity and success in a general. It is pre-eminently the politician's aspect.

Jupiter in ASC sextile Mercury, three planets in Gemini and POF in the 3rd also points to financial success through writing or communication. This would be a fine position for a journalist.

Sun, Venus, Jupiter and Uranus are all in excellent signs, and Saturn is not unhappy in Gemini. Moon conjuncts the NN. These are all very positive.

This little guy will have tons of friends and be highly successful in his career. You might want to steer him toward a scientific or literary career with Mercury in exact to sextile Jupiter. He is probably very intelligent, inventive, strong-willed - perhaps a little too much so at times, independent, explorative. The only caution would be that he will need to regulate his temper and the tendency to be hot-headed, and he will sometimes be rash and excitable.

But I don't think you have anything to worry about - I would certainly be quite happy to have this chart myself.

Last edited by wayne penner; 11-08-2007 at 08:48 PM.
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Unread 11-08-2007, 10:12 PM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
I think the 12th House has been given a bum rap generally, as has Pisces.
I agree, Wayne. I have three planets in the 12th myself. I have a suprising number of charts of friends and family with two, three or four planets in the 12th.

I'd also like to mention something that I'm sure you're very well aware of, but many people are not. 50 degrees N, while hardly near the Arctic Circle, is far enough north so that the "tilt" of the MC starts to become rather severe, and it is most "tilted" when the ascendant is Capricorn or Cancer.

This gives the largest possible difference between house systems. Placidus shows a 12th house that is almost a sign and a half. Equal houses shows a different picture here. Suddenly Mars is no longer in the 12th but in the 11th, and Saturn is just barely in the 12th.

I always look at both and keep in mind which planets "move".

In addition, as you pointed out, Jupiter is very close to the AC. If the recorded birth-time were just a bit late, Jupiter actually would be in the 1st. If anything, birth-times (if not accurate) are usually recorded late.

Gaer
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Unread 11-08-2007, 10:41 PM
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaer
I agree, Wayne. I have three planets in the 12th myself. I have a suprising number of charts of friends and family with two, three or four planets in the 12th.

I'd also like to mention something that I'm sure you're very well aware of, but many people are not. 50 degrees N, while hardly near the Arctic Circle, is far enough north so that the "tilt" of the MC starts to become rather severe, and it is most "tilted" when the ascendant is Capricorn or Cancer.

This gives the largest possible difference between house systems. Placidus shows a 12th house that is almost a sign and a half. Equal houses shows a different picture here. Suddenly Mars is no longer in the 12th but in the 11th, and Saturn is just barely in the 12th.

I always look at both and keep in mind which planets "move".

In addition, as you pointed out, Jupiter is very close to the AC. If the recorded birth-time were just a bit late, Jupiter actually would be in the 1st. If anything, birth-times (if not accurate) are usually recorded late.

Gaer
Gaer it's one of the biggest problems with Placidus but it has been debated for years. In fact at extreme latitudes the MC can be lower than the Ascendent, certaionly a bizarre situation.
I suppose from a pholosiphical point of you it could be argued that very few people are born in extreme latitudes, but it is an issue.

I tend to prefer Equal House (Western) but we still have enormous issues with House division and these have not been resolved to my mind.

Some years ago in England the BAA set up a commitee chaired by Margaret Hone I believe to try to resolve this. They ended up with a not illogical position, that Placidus is how the planets actually play out in life while Equal is the ideal.
So while the two House systems can move a planet from the 10th the the 9th for example, the Placidus position would show the planet in real life as it is, while the Equal would indicate the "essence". Logically this would mean that planets that are in the same Houses by both system would show someone who is more "comfortable" with themselves in that how they express the planet and the external effects are in sync, while the opposite would be true when the planets are shifted by House, a sense of being out of control so to speak. I would expect criminal charts especially to shift planets by House, but I haven't done much research on this

Once again, astrology is a huge subject and really only 100 years old so we obviously still have a lot of work to do.
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Unread 11-08-2007, 11:04 PM
gaer gaer is offline
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

Quote:
Originally Posted by wayne penner
Gaer it's one of the biggest problems with Placidus but it has been debated for years. In fact at extreme latitudes the MC can be lower than the Ascendent, certaionly a bizarre situation.
I suppose from a pholosiphical point of you it could be argued that very few people are born in extreme latitudes, but it is an issue.
Wayne,

In fact, I have a contact in Hammerfest, which is above the Artic Circle, with an AC of 4Aqu16. The MC is conjunct the AC.

And it's not just Placidus. Any house system that uses the MC/IC to divide the chart into four qudrants simply doesn't work so close to the poles. As you know already.
Quote:
I tend to prefer Equal House (Western) but we still have enormous issues with House division and these have not been resolved to my mind.
Yup. Complete agreement there.
Quote:
Some years ago in England the BAA set up a commitee chaired by Margaret Hone I believe to try to resolve this. They ended up with a not illogical position, that Placidus is how the planets actually play out in life while Equal is the ideal.
Obviously the planets can't play out at all in life if you live in Hammerfest.
Quote:
So while the two House systems can move a planet from the 10th the the 9th for example, the Placidus position would show the planet in real life as it is, while the Equal would indicate the "essence". Logically this would mean that planets that are in the same Houses by both system would show someone who is more "comfortable" with themselves in that how they express the planet and the external effects are in sync, while the opposite would be true when the planets are shifted by House, a sense of being out of control so to speak.
I would not dispute this idea. It's as logical an answer as any other I've heard. It does, however, mean that you are much more likely to be uncomfortable with yourself with Capricorn or Cancer rising, most comfortable with 0 Aries or 0 Libra. And being born closer to the equator would be a huge advantage.
[/QUOTE]
I would expect criminal charts especially to shift planets by House, but I haven't done much research on this.
[/QUOTE]
I would want to see that idea carefully researched before assuming it might be correct, although I'm all for testing ANY idea that might have merit.
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Unread 11-09-2007, 12:26 PM
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Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

ALST, hi! I just discovered this post and would like to have a look as well for you. First of all I ran the chart again, taking out all the Stars, Asteroids etc. which clog things up tremendously and give little more information. As you can see your printout is FULL of aspects, half of them unnecessary.
I dont entirely agree with Wayne when he says that you have nothing to worry about. There are certain things that most certainly are bothering me and do need to be mentioned I think.
Sure, the 12th house is often connected with sadness, self sacrifice and worse but it does not have to be like that. Prime example for me is the chart of Hemmingway, chockeblock full. He was a writer and needed to be alone in order to write and for that purpose a 12th house is good. Nevertheless, he did have strong psychological issues . My 12th house has Moon ,Jupiter and Chiron in it so I am also familiar with a 12th house Moon. It is a very complicated house and astrologer Karen Hamaker-Zondag even decided to write a whole book about it (I read it).
You have to look not only at the house but especially to the ruler of the house and where that one is placed and which aspects it makes.
The ruler of your son's planets is Mercury who coincidentally also rules the 4th house of family and early childhood.(12th house is earliest, usually showing house circumstances even before birth and shortly after).
So 4th and 12th houses are strongly connected with one another. His Mercury and his Venus are both intercepted in the 11th house of friends, hopes and wishes. Intercepted planets have a hard time to express themselve so it will be hard for him later to relate to his friends because Venus, co-ruler of the intercepted 11th keeps her distance, seen in the square with Uranus and the inconjunct to Pluto shows that he could feel insecure with friends, even though he has a great need for friendship also shown by his Sun and ruler of all his 12th house planets.He will probably try to show off what he can do in quite a dominant fashion(Venus as ruler of his 5th house of selfexpresion) and could attract friends who are difficult themselves or who have radical ideas (Venus square Uranus).He will probably only trust a handful of friends later in life.
Although his Sun is very strongly placed in Aries ,it does make a semi-square to his Saturn and his MC. and it's ruler Mars is also situated in the 12th! This alone shows that he had a hard time with his father as does the square from Mercury to Neptune in his 8th house, showing confusion of the mind because of this. He might occasionally have nightmares as well. With Mars and Saturn in the 12th house, and especially Saturn being ruler of his 7th and Chiron conjunct the 7th and in opposition to his Ascendant, he could develop a fear for others. Saturn conjuncts his Moon and Moonnodes (to do with relationships) and he could therefore be prone to depressions.
The very sensitive Cancer Ascendant has by itself already a "selfdefensive" attitude and it's ruler being in the 12th house accentuates this.Lawrence could have very strong intuitive talents (connections with Neptune, Pluto, Uranus are strong). This boy will be very careful regarding other people as a result from what he experienced at a very young age. You can say what you want, but Mars and Saturn in 12 show fear, fear of being hurt again (conj. with Moon) and of how to behave in public life (conjunction to Mars, ruler of 10th).
He will strongly need privacy but at the same time he could be very afraid of being left alone (Saturn placement always shows where fear exists and the 12th house is a lonely house). He could be afraid of hospitals as well.
Even though Jupiter is very strong conjunct his Ascendant helping him staying cheerful,and this position is generally a very fortunate one, it is also the ruler of his 6th house and with the inconjunct to Neptune in the 8th, it could show psychosomatic illnesses,(like not wanting to go to school for example and all of a sudden having stomach pain) also shown by Pluto in his 6th in opposition to his Moon and Saturn. Transits, especially slow ones, going through his 6th house and coming to 8-10° Sagittarius could trigger illness as then a YOD is being formed between his Jupiter, inconjunct Neptune in 8 and inconjuct the transiting planet in 6. I dont think he would get a serious illness, it will probably have a psychological cause, something that triggered his early memories (he probably does not even know anymore by then).
Lawrence will need a lot of attention (Moon opposition Pluto) and his mind is strongly security orientated (Mercury in Taurus in the 10th, a Capricorn house). His optimism will help him a great deal overcoming problems in his life which is fortunate. He is intelligent but could need a bit more time to absorb things with Merc. in Taurus and with the square to Neptune daydreaming could be possible. I wrote all this so that you are more or less informed to what could emerge and how to understand him and help him. With a lot of encouragement he will grow up fine. All the best for the both of you. Starlink
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Unread 11-09-2007, 06:00 PM
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Talking Re: Interpretation of many planets in 12th House

Wow! I am overwhelmed by the response. Many of your points are uncanny.

I do feel the need to give Lawrence a lot of support and encouragement. He is gaining in confidence, but still experiences shyness in large group situations (i.e. birthday parties). He doesn't like being alone and has one very, very close best friend (who is incidently very tall - he seems to go for very tall best friends! - while Lawrence himself is short for his age). They seem to have their own language and are like brothers together.

He may well develop a fear of hospitals as this year his older sister (Pisces) has had to spend a couple of weeks as an in-patient, and also my father (aquarius) died in hospital this year.

He does need a lot of nurturing and security from me (sagittarius) - which of course I provide. He also seems to light up when with my brother (gemini), who is a great role model for him.

Regarding intelligence, Lawrence seems to have a lot going on in his head, but has only just started to want to be involved in learning to write it down. I just go at his pace with this.

Apart from that, he has lots of energy and indeed can be very exhuberant - he is allergic to "e numbers".

I don't know if this helps aswell, but his father is also a sagittarius (like me), and he (father) also has the moon opposite pluto aspect that Lawrence has which as I understand it leads to leaving your family because you just don't fit in and need to be by yourself (hope this isn't true of Lawrence but his Pluto is retrograde anyway).

Thanks for your help, guys. Lots to go on there.

Cheers and smiles,
Ax.
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