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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #26  
Unread 11-27-2013, 05:55 PM
Blacknight Blacknight is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I think about this idea a lot... If you can't change the past and future inevitably becomes the past what makes you think the future can be changed? And if we exist in the present, how can we change something that hasn't even happened? It is what it is.

I think the greeks had it right on their philosophy of the fates. You can't change fate. You can't change destiny or the motions of the universe.

And if you go back to the the very beginning of the universe, you might say everything is a simple chain reaction. I mean really, what is the state of free will? I would say it only exists, if a realm outside of the universe exists. If an afterlife of spirits exist and they choose their lots in life then maybe I could see that there is a choice of will.

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  #27  
Unread 11-27-2013, 06:12 PM
Lucid Lucid is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknight View Post
I think about this idea a lot... If you can't change the past and future inevitably becomes the past what makes you think the future can be changed? And if we exist in the present, how can we change something that hasn't even happened? It is what it is.

I think the greeks had it right on their philosophy of the fates. You can't change fate. You can't change destiny or the motions of the universe.

And if you go back to the the very beginning of the universe, you might say everything is a simple chain reaction. I mean really, what is the state of free will? I would say it only exists, if a realm outside of the universe exists. If an afterlife of spirits exist and they choose their lots in life then maybe I could see that there is a choice of will.

In the article I posted he speaks about free will as something that concerns the past, not the future:

Your recent paper in Physics Today (co-authored with Jeff Tollaksen, also at Chapman, and Sandu Popescu of the University of Bristol) suggests that the universe might have a fully determined final state as well as a beginning state. Does that cause you to wrestle with the idea of free will?
A. I don't have any problem with that because free will means you are only freed from the past. You're not freed from the future. If somebody would know your future, but not tell you about it, and we would not use (the information) in any way, it's as if we waited till the future came.
If something comes back from the future, like this destiny state, to the present, but it is not available to to tell you what this future is, you're still free from the past. You can change your mind. If you change your mind, you change your fate, and it will be the new state.


It is somewhat similar to the idea that fate exists... and the actions and decisions we make using our free will is always bound to respond with our fate.... as the op said, everything that we were, are and will be is already shown in the chart.
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  #28  
Unread 11-27-2013, 07:00 PM
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Cap Cap is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

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Originally Posted by Lucid View Post
If time is an illusion, since we are what we will be/what we already were, and the only thing that changes is our perception, than why is our natal BIRTH chart counts as OURS? I mean, the birth chart is one point in the PAST time, so aren't we supposed to be constantly influenced by the planets as they move around? as opposed to the idea that only the outer planets are influencing on a generational level?
I've always wondered how do transits work. Say, how does a current pluto "remember"s that my natal sun was at this degree, and then would square it, after 10 years, and the general way in which it would function.
There are several schools of thought on this but fundamental difference is:

a) Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view The planets CAUSE things to happen, they are causal agents. Therefore, astrology is virtually a branch of physics.

b) Stoic view The universe is governed and determined by all-permeating cosmic intelligence. Here planets are objects which SIGNIFY things, but not cause them.

Personally, option b is closer to my understanding of astrology.
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  #29  
Unread 11-27-2013, 07:34 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I have recognized myself as a Stoic for a long time now.

The planets are not causal. They are descriptive.

The configuration of the heavens at the Moment of Birth describes the State of the Cosmos at that Moment. We, each of us, are the Embodiment of that Moment, and therefore the configuration of the heavens describes us equally with the Moment, because we are of the nature of that moment.

We continually seek to separate ourselves from Nature, to put ourselves outside and above, in our arrogance, our infatuation with what we see as our Power (to control and direct our lives -- a delusion). For my part, I will do my best to ride the flow of the River, to stay within the current of my Destiny. I have fallen into angry rivers here in real life, and know how to survive; you don't fight the River.

And Lucid -- I wrote out and sent an answer to your questions about deja vu, "remembering" natal positions and all...but I sent it off as a PM and don't know to who. I don't have the desire to write it all over again.

Last edited by greybeard; 11-27-2013 at 07:38 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 11-27-2013, 07:47 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknight View Post
I think about this idea a lot... If you can't change the past and future inevitably becomes the past what makes you think the future can be changed? And if we exist in the present, how can we change something that hasn't even happened? It is what it is
There's one way of changing the Past and the Future and that is NOW DURING THE PRESENT MOMENT

The Past is History
The Future is a Mystery
The Present is a Gift

The Present is the place from which to change Past and Future

The Future is always changing and never happens

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blacknight View Post
I think the greeks had it right on their philosophy of the fates. You can't change fate. You can't change destiny or the motions of the universe.

And if you go back to the the very beginning of the universe, you might say everything is a simple chain reaction. I mean really, what is the state of free will? I would say it only exists, if a realm outside of the universe exists. If an afterlife of spirits exist and they choose their lots in life then maybe I could see that there is a choice of will.
"Through the round of many births I roamed

without reward,

without rest,

seeking the house-builder.

Painful is birth, again & again.

House-builder, you’re... seen!

You will not build a house again.

All your rafters broken,

the ridge pole destroyed,

gone to the Unformed,

the mind has come to the end of craving."- Dhammapada ~Buddha~



Photo credit- Kevin Plumb
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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  #31  
Unread 12-02-2013, 06:00 PM
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poyi poyi is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

Fascinating scientific finding on how memories can be passed on through generation through the bloodline. The personality and past events are stored within genetic so as the principles of Sun, Moon and Ascendant as well as POF perhaps a lot more. The most important points are your Father, Mother, physical combination of these two to be born into another form as you the combined product.

Quote:
Behaviour can be affected by events in previous generations which have been passed on through a form of genetic memory, animal studies suggest. Experiments showed that a traumatic event could affect the DNA in sperm and alter the brains and behaviour of subsequent generations.
To read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-25156510
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“I believe there is something of the divine mystery in everything that exists. We can see it sparkle in a sunflower or a poppy. We sense more of the unfathomable mystery in a butterfly that flutters from a twig--or in a goldfish swimming in a bowl. But we are closest to God in our own soul. Only there can we become one with the greatest mystery of life. In truth, at very rare moments we can experience that we ourselves are that divine mystery.” --Jostein Gaarder, Sophie's World
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  #32  
Unread 12-13-2013, 06:09 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: The Future Already Exists

I look at the birth chart this way...and it is only my conception, which means it is a convenience to my thinking processes, a particular vantage point from which I choose to "see":

Carl Jung that "Anything born in a given moment is of the nature of that moment."
I would carry that a step further and say "Anything born in a given moment is that moment." I see us as manifestations of a Moment in spacetime (the emergence of Consciousness into our realm of reality), the manifestation having duration in spacetime just as the ripples in a pond "live on" beyond the moment a rock strikes the pond.

Regarding transits (and other predictive tools), the idea of duration speaks to that, in part. We must also understand that the transits are preordained (in time) from the moment of birth. The motions of the planets can be predicted for a very long time into the future, and if they depart from a known point of beginning (the birth chart), their "contacts" with sensitive points in that birth chart are foreordained...the Moment which we are fulfills its purpose and destiny just as the unfolding of a flower does.

This is another way of seeing that the future already exists (and our present is always nothing more than the past come to the present.) It's all One, from alpha to omega, from here to there. Earth is a little planet right in the Middle of Heaven. We never left Heaven, and have no need to return. We are there now, and forever, because All is One...it is Consciousness.

Over the years I have read the bible, the story of Jesus, a bit. And it has always seemed to me that Jesus spent an inordinate amount of time "making the blind to see." The message is, it seems to me, "Cast off your blindness, open your eyes and see the Truth. And the truth shall set you free."

Last edited by greybeard; 12-13-2013 at 06:39 AM.
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