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Horary Astrology Ask and answer any horary questions, and discuss theory and technique. Please post a chart of the time, date, and place you asked the question. Please do not ask the same question repeatedly, hoping for a different result: horary works best when you ask the question ONCE and then interpret the chart that results from when the question FIRST came into your mind. Horary forums are ONLY for discussion of horary charts and techniques.


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  #1  
Unread 03-25-2008, 06:02 AM
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Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Hello girls/boys

Let's talk about validity of charts. what makes the chart fit to be judged?

I think we should discuss this topic since people especially new people who are just entering horary astrology

anyone has any meaningful to say, feel free to post your charts and opinions.

thanks!!!
Cheers
Tik

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Unread 03-25-2008, 11:28 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

From the Astrologynotes Wiki

Considerations before judgement

William Lilly, considered an authority on Horary astrology by many practioners, wrote in his book Christian Astrology that not every horary chart is fit to be judged, and laid out twelve "considerations" about the chart that should be looked at to determine whether the chart is fit. The purpose of this was most likely to weed out questions that were asked frivolously or with malicious intent, or questions which the astrologer was not able to judge fairly. If the chart passes these twelve considerations, the astrologer deemed the question "radical" and fit to be judged:
  1. Planetary Hour - The Lord of the hour should be of the same triplicity or nature as the Lord of the Ascendant (most astrologers today consider additional indicators of a connection between hour ruler and ascendant ruler).
  2. The Ascendant must not be too early (0° - 3°). Something has to be learned or decided first
  3. The Ascendant must not be too late (27° - 30°), the querent may already know the answer
  4. The Ascendant, and the planet in the Ascendant, must describe the querent
  5. The Moon must not be in square on opposition the lord of the seventh house
  6. The Moon must not lie in the Via Combusta
  7. The Moon must not be Void of Course
  8. The cusp of the seventh house and its lord must not be afflicted
  9. Saturn should not be on the Ascendant or in the first house, especially if retrograde
  10. Saturn should not be in the seventh house
  11. First house ruler should not be combust
  12. There should not be an equal number of fortunate and unfortunate factors
However, many of these are not used today, and indeed they do not seem to prevent a fair judgement, they just make it somewhat less reliable. The ones most adhered to are the void of course Moon (nothing is likely to happen), Saturn in or ruling the seventh (the astrologer is being restricted), and the ruler of the Ascendant in relationship to the hour ruler (however more than just rulership or triplicity are considered). Also the Moon does not have to perfect an aspect before it leaves its sign to avoid being void of course, it merely has to apply to it by moiety, and that can be to an outer planet or the ascendant as well.



When a chart is radical and when it is not



The concept of radicality is used only in horary astrology, and it is virtually absent from all other branches of astrology. The general consensus among classical astrologers held that a chart was radical only if casted for a question asked for the very first time, by a querent sincerely concerned about a particular problem. The genuiness of the question was believed to be indicated by a very close correspondence between the querent’s state of mind and the information provided by the chart. As a rule, a chart is radical whenever it describes:
  • the appearance and state of mind of the querent.
  • events related to the question, that took place recently.
  • the general circumstances regarding the question.
  • the appearance state of mind of the quesited.
Classical authors used two methods to judge if a chart was radical. The first one involved considering if the chart could provide an accurate description of both the querent and the quesited. Besides analyzing planetary symbolism related to physical appearance, another method was that of spotting how many moles marks and scars the querent had on his body, and where. The second method was observing several conditions - known as considerations before judgement – related to the Ascendant, the Descendant and the Moon. These are the most important elements of any horary chart. The ascendant and its ruler signify the querent, while the Moon indicates the succession of events related to the question.

In horary questions not related to matters ruled by the seventh house (marriage, lawsuits, business partnerships, etc. ) the descendant and its ruler signify the astrologer.

A careful observation of the ascendant and its lord is needed to understand whether the astrologer will be able to judge the chart impartially or if he will be led astray. If the ascendant is in the first or in the last three degrees of a sign, any reading of the chart would be superflous. In some cases the question may have been forged or altered, therefore there would be no point in jugding it, as it is not genuine. In other cases indications yielded by the too early or too late placement of the ascendant regard the timing of the question. If the first degrees ascend, the question has been asked before the time is ripe. As nothing really significant may happen anytime soon, the astrologer should abstain from reading the chart. Indications given by a late placement of the ascendant are the opposite. The querent, having already taken his decision about a matter, or knowing that what worries him will soon come to an end, nevertheless visits the astrologer and asks him a question which is redunding. According to William Lilly this rule did not apply if the querent was very young, described by the ascendant and its lord. Another exception to this rule was the case of an horary chart erected for the precise time in which an even occurred. That the question was forged could be indicated, according to al-Kindi and other Muslim astrologers to which Lilly and other classical authors referred, by the placement of Saturn in the first house, particularly if Saturn was retrograde. A different reading of the symbolism of Saturn would be that the querent has lost all hope, or that the question will not have a good outcome. If this placement is reinforced by a concurrent retrogradation or combustion of the lord of the ascendant, then the querent is, according to John Gadbury, a “fool.” Otherwise, a retrogradation or combustion of the lord of the first would simply indicate a negative answer to the horary questions. Questions were judged radical whent the lord of the ascendant and the lord of the planetary hour were the same or of a similar nature.

A preliminary analysis of the descendant and its ruler was used to evaluate the querent’s intentions and the astrologer’s ability to read a chart objectively. These considerations were used mainly when the question did not pertain to the seventh house, yet the seventh house or its lord were afflicted.The risk that the astrologer may err, and therefore ruin his reputation was believed to bee high when Saturn was in the seventh house, or when either the cusp of the seventh or its lord suffered various affliction. These afflictions were a besiegement of the Descendant, or its receiving an hard aspect. As for the lord of the seventh, its combustion, besiegement, fall, retrogradation and placement in the terms of Saturn or Mars indicated that the astrologer would be led astray. Hard aspects between the lord of the seventh and the lord of the ascendant or the moon indicated that the querent was posing the question as a joke.

Restrictions concerning the Moon were used to assess how many chances of success the question has, and to understand whether the querent waa asking a genuine question, or if his intentions are insincere. If the Moon is void of course it is likely that there would be no evolution in the question. This placement of the Moon does not restrict the reading of the chart, rather it was used to indicate the existence of obstacles so strong as to preclude any favorable outcome, unless both significators had very strong dignities. According to William Lilly, whenever the Moon is in Taurus, Cancer, Sagittarius or Pisces it behaves as void of course. Other unfortunate placements of the Moon are it its lying in the via combusta or in the last degrees of a sign, as the last degrees of all signs are the terms either of Mars or of Saturn. Furthermore if the Moon casts an hard aspect to the lord of the seventh house, the querent is not asking a genuine question.

Contemporary authors dissent as to the usefulness of the considerations before judgement, and do not adhere to them completely. Their views are based on an examination of the frequency with which the considerations were used by classical authors, and on the observation that the most famous classical astrologers did not always use them. It is to be pointed out, however, that the considerations can be useful in all those cases where there is no face to face contact between the astrologer and the querent and hence the astrologer has no way to know what purpose motivates the querent to consult him. Besides chances that the querent has asked the question two or more times already, or has been consulting somebody else before contacting the astrologer can at times be quite high.
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  #3  
Unread 05-04-2008, 05:35 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

This was helpful, thank you.
I did a little chart for myself to help myself learn about horary astrology, but it isn't working out too well, its a bit hard to understand and take it everything at once, besides, I think the chart isn't.. valid? I don't know, saturn in the 7th house is bad right?
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Unread 05-04-2008, 06:36 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Now, hear a different perspective from horary master John Frawley: There are astrologers who make much of these considerations before judgement, deliberating long over whether a chart is 'radical' by which they mean capable of being judged. These astrologers have theiur own translation of that famous Hermetic dictum: As above so below. Every chart cam be judged. Astrology never stops working.

I subscribe 100% to that.

I think that all charts are valid, and it's astrologers who fail reading charts, not charts that cannot be read.

If you're using the horary chart set for the moment you receive the question, there is no way the chart is not valid. The resulting chart is also an event chart, the event being the horary reading. You may discard charts with afflicted 7th house (astrologer afflicted) or even those the 10th afflicted (possible unsuccessful reading), but the astrology chart WORKS. And the answer is right there. And may be the ASTROLOGER who cannot delineate it, possibly because of his/her limitations in understanding correctly horary astrology subtleness.

An example: a client of mine recently approached me with a horary question that had a late ASC. I gave her the chart interpretation and told her that she probably already knew the answer. In fact, she knew the answer as she had asked the same horary question to another horary astrologer but she was not content with the reading she received - that horary chart had Saturn and South Node culminating!

See my point here? These considerations before judgement don't invalidate the chart, that would be SO STUPID as the considerations are already PART OF THE HORARY CHART. So one analyses the horary chart and determines that is says that it isn't valid? A part cannot invalidate the entire.

John Frawley says that they shouldn't even taught to students, as his experience with students is that in too many cases once the considerations have been inserted into the head, it is impossible to completely flush them out again.

I think that they should be taught as signals. They have a very specific meaning, each of them and are VERY USEFUL in delineating a chart.
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Unread 05-04-2008, 04:50 PM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

I agree with Radu. We were discussing this in another horary thread: when do the considerations become strictures against judgement? I say, never. I used to think radicality depended on the considerations being fulfilled, but I have found through practice that any and every chart can be read, although if a querent asks the same question over and over again the chart becomes less and less clear. It's almost like the stars are saying (in a weary voice): We _already told you this_.

Late ascendants, early ascendants, void moons, even Saturn in the 7th, can be read. Many people get worried when they see Saturn in the 7th, but in a lot of these charts, Saturn is actually a major significator, and needs to be read into the chart.

I have only had one chart where Saturn was in the 10th and had nothing to do with the reading. I took this as a warning that the querent wouldn't pay any attention to whatever it was I said (they already had their mind made up before they asked the chart), and this turned out to be true. It wouldn't have mattered what I said: they wouldn't have believed me if it didn't agree with their already-made decision.

As for hour rulers and day rulers and such, these appear to be VERY useful in sports and bet-making astrology; in general horary, I am no longer sure they are really necessary, although it is fun to practice with them.

AG
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Unread 10-25-2011, 04:42 PM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

I'm of the opinion that any chart for a moment can be read, as well. I think it gets tricky for reader when the question is not decisive ~ when there are more than one question involved.
My own limited experience however has shown me not to consider a chart EVER when Saturn occupies 1st or 7th ( in case of questions of "other"), or in house ruling the question. There seems to be an innate blockage which prohibits me from seeing what's there in full spectrum. Those are charts I have had worst results with.
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Unread 10-25-2011, 10:38 PM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Here is an example of why a horary has considerations/strictures:

http://astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41892

Also, I think that Frank, in that thread, said it best; just because we can read a chart does not mean we should read a chart.

I also think it depends on your attitude. If you think you know everything, you'll just race past the considerations without a second glance. Like a Radu said above, the considerations are signals. Signals, I think, to slow down and consider what is trying to be addressed before rushing to the chart as normal. Or, trying to be clever and give an answer.

It is interesting to note, that all Oracles have at least one passage or reading, what have you, that basically says the Oracle cannot answer you now. Or, your question is muddy or unthoughful. Even the I-Ching basically comes out and calls the querent a fool, at times, for asking questions too many times or not having the sense to know what they are really asking.

On another note, we are fortunate in these times that, for the most part, we are not burned, dismembered, thrown off cliffs or ruined and dishonoured completely, for being wrong. If we lived in more oppressive or less tolerant times, I can assure you, you would watch the considerations more carefully. But, living in more liberal times does not mean that we ourselves can now become less considerate of the Cosmos or our fellow travellers on this planet.

Blessings,

Anachiel
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Unread 12-16-2011, 01:06 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Can someone please explain what is the "lord of the hour" ? And although I understand that we are to use the "considerations" for a "radical" chart to be read and so forth, as signals to watch for I would appreciate and example of what #1 meant: "The Planetary Hour: The Lord of the hour should be of the same triplicity or nature as the Lord of the Asc.". I just didnt get that. How can you manipulate the very things that are supposed to be spontaneous thus making horary the art/science that it is? Please help. Im really on the verge of really grasping this; its extremely exciting!

Thanks for everyone's patience with me on this but I am determined to get this!

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Unread 12-16-2011, 03:18 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Lord of the Hour is merely the planetary hour. In an ELECTION, you manipulate this relative to slecting the right time. IN HORARY, however, many use this to determine if the chart is "fit" (reliable) for judgement-so in horary the planetary hour is an indicator for the reliability (or unreliability) of the chart for delineation. Use of planetary hour in horary seems to date from around the time of Guido Bonatti (13th century), I myself have found no reference to its use in horary prior to around that time.
There are a number of threads about Planetary Hours to be found here on AW (check out the search function)

(Note: I myself do not use the planetary hour ruler/"lord of the hour" in horary delineation)
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Unread 12-16-2011, 10:54 PM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Lord of the Hour is merely the planetary hour. In an ELECTION, you manipulate this relative to slecting the right time. IN HORARY, however, many use this to determine if the chart is "fit" (reliable) for judgement-so in horary the planetary hour is an indicator for the reliability (or unreliability) of the chart for delineation. Use of planetary hour in horary seems to date from around the time of Guido Bonatti (13th century), I myself have found no reference to its use in horary prior to around that time.
There are a number of threads about Planetary Hours to be found here on AW (check out the search function)

(Note: I myself do not use the planetary hour ruler/"lord of the hour" in horary delineation)
Thank Gawd, Dr. Farr; one less thing to worry about (as I wipe my brow). As it is, there is enough to worry about.

Thanks again my horary "guru". Looks like you know your stuff. Tell me; are you a traditional astrologer or modern? I've been wondering if the traditional astrologers consider the use of our last 3 planets for astrology, and if so, what type of astrology (like natal, for example) and how much power does one give these planets if any at all?

I will check out the threads on the planetary hour; it cant hurt nothing, thanks.
S5
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Unread 12-17-2011, 04:36 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Neither, or perhaps actually, BOTH, since I am an eclectic I take what seems best to me, from both traditional and Modernist outlooks and experiences. In horary I follow an oldtime oral tradition (Ankara or Ottoman astrology) which predates the modifications made by Bonatti and other later authorities, to the original horary methods of the earlier Islamic era pioneers of Western horary (that's why I always put a disclaimer above all of my horary delineations to the effect that I am not using standard horary methods in such delineation)

I have not found it necessary to use the outers in horary except once in a great while. However, I fully count the outers in all other forms of delineation (natal, event, mundane, astro-therapeutic charts), although I mostly use the less-extensive meanings/indications for these planets found in the earlier Modernist authors (like Charles Carter, Vivian Robson, Manly P. Hall, Max Heindel, etc) I do accept the concept that the outers can be very important modifying factors, I can of consider them to be like the "3 Fates" of ancient mythology...
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Unread 12-18-2011, 03:10 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Neither, or perhaps actually, BOTH, since I am an eclectic I take what seems best to me, from both traditional and Modernist outlooks and experiences. In horary I follow an oldtime oral tradition (Ankara or Ottoman astrology) which predates the modifications made by Bonatti and other later authorities, to the original horary methods of the earlier Islamic era pioneers of Western horary (that's why I always put a disclaimer above all of my horary delineations to the effect that I am not using standard horary methods in such delineation)

I have not found it necessary to use the outers in horary except once in a great while. However, I fully count the outers in all other forms of delineation (natal, event, mundane, astro-therapeutic charts), although I mostly use the less-extensive meanings/indications for these planets found in the earlier Modernist authors (like Charles Carter, Vivian Robson, Manly P. Hall, Max Heindel, etc) I do accept the concept that the outers can be very important modifying factors, I can of consider them to be like the "3 Fates" of ancient mythology...
Like, for example, if these outers fall on our angles.....?

You are very well read, way over my head as of now, but later I will check out the histories you mentioned, as time and my life allows.

Thank you
S5
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Unread 12-18-2011, 08:34 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Yes, or if they are Parallel or conjunct in longitude any of the Traiditional 7; or if they are elevated (for example, Uranus in Cancer is the most elevated planet in my natal chart-up in the 11th house-and Uranian attributes certainly have been quite obvious in my life)
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Unread 12-18-2011, 08:45 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Neither, or perhaps actually, BOTH, since I am an eclectic I take what seems best to me, from both traditional and Modernist outlooks and experiences. In horary I follow an oldtime oral tradition (Ankara or Ottoman astrology) which predates the modifications made by Bonatti and other later authorities, to the original horary methods of the earlier Islamic era pioneers of Western horary (that's why I always put a disclaimer above all of my horary delineations to the effect that I am not using standard horary methods in such delineation)

I have not found it necessary to use the outers in horary except once in a great while. However, I fully count the outers in all other forms of delineation (natal, event, mundane, astro-therapeutic charts), although I mostly use the less-extensive meanings/indications for these planets found in the earlier Modernist authors (like Charles Carter, Vivian Robson, Manly P. Hall, Max Heindel, etc) I do accept the concept that the outers can be very important modifying factors, I can of consider them to be like the "3 Fates" of ancient mythology...
dr. farr are the 146 Considerations of Guido Bonatus of any value?http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/astrolo...strologiae.pdf Or would you advise a beginner to focus on just 'one or two' specific considerations (if any)?
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Unread 12-18-2011, 09:00 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Yes they are of value because they contain many of the earlier horary considerations of the Islamic transitional era pioneers of Western horary. However they also contain many additions from Bonatti himself (and not knocking him-he was one of the most accurate astrological forecasters of all time: Dante put him in the "Inferno" because of this!) But for a beginner, it would be better to get a good book on horary before venturing into other research; although differing from my approach in many ways, I would still recommend Anthony Louis "Horary Astrology" book as the place for beginners to start their studies in this field...
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Unread 12-18-2011, 09:06 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Yes they are of value because they contain many of the earlier horary considerations of the Islamic transitional era pioneers of Western horary. However they also contain many additions from Bonatti himself (and not knocking him-he was one of the most accurate astrological forecasters of all time: Dante put him in the "Inferno" because of this!) But for a beginner, it would be better to get a good book on horary before venturing into other research; although differing from my approach in many ways, I would still recommend Anthony Louis "Horary Astrology" book as the place for beginners to start their studies in this field...
That's good to know dr. farr - however one wonders, is there any way for the beginner to easily distinguish which belong to the earlier horary considerations of the Islamic transitional era pioneers of Western horary (apart from reading numerous volumes). Alternatively, which are the salient volumes one would be advised to obtain?
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Unread 12-18-2011, 09:15 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

A study of the now-translated earlier Islamic-era works which touch on early horary and which are currently fairly easily available are:
-Masalah's "On Reception"
-al-Kindi's "40 Considerations"
-Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction"*
-Al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction"
-Ibn Ezra's "Beginning of Wisdom"
:unfortunately the "Ottoman astrology" ("Ankara" tradition) information is rare and untranslated (that's largely what I learned from an oral teaching back in the 1970's and what I use in my approach to horary) Still, much of that approach can be found diffused in the available Islamic-era books I have just listed.

(*Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction" is rather rare, but still available; some of its information can be found in his "Abbreviation to the Introduction to Astrology", a smaller volume which is easily available at the present time)

Last edited by dr. farr; 12-18-2011 at 09:17 AM.
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Unread 12-18-2011, 09:45 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Thank you for the recommended reading dr. farr, I shall check for any volumes I may already have and obtain others as and when I have time - and since Guido Bonatus was apparently as you say one of the most accurate astrological forecasters of all time, that's quite an accolade - I shall consider time spent consulting his 146 considerations to have been time well spent!
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Unread 06-26-2017, 03:30 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Reviving this thread.. Sometimes i run a horary from my location its opposite if i have an astrologer look from his/her location. Anyone else running into that problem
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Unread 06-26-2017, 02:54 PM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Casting a horary chart for two different locations is much like asking the question twice. I have tried that myself. The earlier chart is most likely to be valid. The considerations can be used to evaluate such charts, But Lilly did not let them stop him from reading a chart. He seemed to say that they are primarily for beginners who lack experience.
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Unread 06-26-2017, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
Casting a horary chart for two different locations is much like asking the question twice. I have tried that myself. The earlier chart is most likely to be valid. The considerations can be used to evaluate such charts, But Lilly did not let them stop him from reading a chart. He seemed to say that they are primarily for beginners who lack experience.
Culpepper ...i agree but lets say 2 people querent and the astrologer sitting in chat running the question ..whose location do we pick?
T
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Unread 06-27-2017, 01:49 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

In the case where you as the astrologer are talking with someone and decide a chart should be cast, always use your own location not that of the querent.
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Unread 06-27-2017, 02:04 AM
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Re: Horary chart: how do you tell if the chart is valid

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
In the case where you as the astrologer are talking with someone and decide a chart should be cast, always use your own location not that of the querent.
I am experimenting with that, Culpeper.

i will post my findings once i am done.
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