Confused by the 12th House.

K

katydid

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
Even if birth is "a long process"
the defining moment is the first breath :smile:
However, the moment of the first breath is often missed
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I think that is the point. The 'first breath' is open to interpretation. It is not that cut and dry. Some take their 'first breath' while they are still partially in the mothers body. Does that count? Or do we wait until they are fully freed and on their own?

The difference in time between various interpretations may mean bigger changes in the house cusps than some of the house systems do.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
katydid said:
I think that is the point. The 'first breath' is open to interpretation. It is not that cut and dry.
Some take their 'first breath' while they are still partially in the mothers body. Does that count?
Or do we wait until they are fully freed and on their own?
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That's a matter for personal opinion :smile:
 
K

katydid

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
That's a matter for personal opinion :smile:
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Of course it is a matter of personal opinion. And that is why Birth Times are not always accurate or consistent. When watching a natural birth, there are various factors to consider when trying to ascertain when the newborn took it's first breath. Some come out blue and need to be resuscitated. Some need to be lightly slapped awake because they need to be startled to take that breath. Others are gasping and need to have their throats cleared. Some just magically take a breath instantly. Some are 'born' immediately upon being taken from the womb while others need some medical care first.
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
katydid said:
Of course it is a matter of personal opinion. And that is why Birth Times are not always accurate or consistent.
When watching a natural birth, there are various factors to consider when trying to ascertain when the newborn took it's first breath.
Some come out blue and need to be resuscitated. Some need to be lightly slapped awake because they need to be startled to take that breath.
Others are gasping and need to have their throats cleared.
Some just magically take a breath instantly.
Some are 'born' immediately upon being taken from the womb while others need some medical care first.
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There is no consensus amongst astrologers on this topic :smile:
 
K

katydid

Well-known member
JUPITERASC said:
There is no consensus amongst astrologers on this topic :smile:
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Right, exactly. There is no consensus among astrologers about how to determine the exact moment of birth. And that was my original point. It makes no sense to quibble about various house cusps when there is such inconsistency in determine the time of birth.
 
waybread

waybread

Well-known member
Actually, once you've determined the moment of birth by whatever means, the ascendant point will be identical in all house systems. It may be co-equal with the first house cusp (quadrant and equal house systems) or it may not be (whole signs house system.)

The ascendant degree moves (if I recall correctly) about every 3 minutes, so as long as the birth can be pegged to a couple of minutes, the ascendant degree probably won't change that much. If the birth window of time is longer, it probably won't be a huge deal for most astrological techniques unless the ascendant is right on the cusp
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
katydid said:
Right, exactly. There is no consensus among astrologers about how to determine the exact moment of birth.
And that was my original point.
It makes no sense to quibble about various house cusps when there is such inconsistency in determine the time of birth.
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Without a reliable time of birth there is no reliable ascendant :smile:
 
JUPITERASC

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
.
mercurial OP said:
"...Since reading about Astrology, by looking at someone's 'star sign' through to deeper learning
about houses and aspects, I'm a bit confused still about the 12th house.
Naturally I've been looking at a lot of charts along the way and its helped me understand how things work,
and has made me see people differently when I look up charts with my friends
and we talk about them and if they relate. However, I have a friend whose chart confuses me somewhat,
because she is so placid, very nice but quiet.
She has Taurus rising which seems very prominent - but the Sun and Moon tightly conjunct in Aries in the 12th
which I cannot pick up at all and we've been friends a long time.
Does anyone have any thoughts on this? She has 2 other personal planets in the 12th too, Mercury in Aries
and Venus in Pisces (which puzzles me more still).."

Friends Taurus ascendant
indicates Ascendant ruler VENUS is in Placidus H12
&
Friends ARIES Sun Moon conjunction H12 indicates a NEW MOON
keep in mind
H12 signifies matters that are hidden, secret :)
incapable of being fully understood
so
unsurprisingly
the friend is an enigma


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