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  #26  
Unread 04-02-2019, 12:01 PM
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Chrysalis Chrysalis is offline
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Re: Contact?

From what ive learnt about an in/out of sect mercury is this. In a day chart he should be occidental, which means rising before the sun. In a night chart he should be oriental, rising after the sun. Mercury in this chart is rising before the sun, so is occidental, but as its a night chart, mercury is not in the correct sect.

As mercury is occidental, this makes him a masculine planet, which would favor him in a masculine sign, but mercury is in a feminine sign, which i referred to as a [contrary] sign. Mercury being masculine should also be above the horizon but its not.

So i came to my final conclusion that mercury was very much indeed in very bad shape, so this moon/mercury sextile will not bring anything positive for the querent, and this seems to have been the case.

I wasn't talking about dignity of mercury, i know this is a seperate issue.

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  #27  
Unread 04-02-2019, 12:17 PM
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post

From what ive learnt about an in/out of sect mercury is this. In a day chart he should be occidental, which means rising before the sun. In a night chart he should be oriental, rising after the sun. Mercury in this chart is rising before the sun, so is occidental, but as its a night chart, mercury is not in the correct sect.

As mercury is occidental, this makes him a masculine planet, which would favor him in a masculine sign, but mercury is in a feminine sign, which i referred to as a [contrary] sign. Mercury being masculine should also be above the horizon but its not.

So i came to my final conclusion that mercury was very much indeed in very bad shape, so this moon/mercury sextile will not bring anything positive for the querent, and this seems to have been the case.

I wasn't talking about dignity of mercury, i know this is a seperate issue.
thanks for the clarification - it is important
because

beginners/learners are often confused by statements such as

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis View Post


Mercurys in fall, retrograde, stationary,

and in a contrary to sect sign,
BUT in fact SIGN is not related to SECT
and therefore

it is important for beginners to be aware
that SECT is determined by the SUN alone initially
i.e.
If a planet is not of the sect in favor
then
it is the wrong time of day for the planet.

by the way
keep in mind that

the following more detailed explanation
is for beginners only


Saturn and Jupiter are not of the sect in favor in NIGHT charts
and Venus and Mars are not of the sect in favor in DAY charts.

Mercury as a morning star makes it a diurnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a NIGHT chart

Mercury as an evening star makes it a nocturnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a DAY chart.

Saturn and Jupiter are of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Saturn and Jupiter are the Sunís co-sectarians.

Venus and Mars are of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Venus and Mars are the Moonís co-sectarians.

Mercury as a morning star is of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as a morning star is the Sunís co-sectarian
along with Saturn and Jupiter.

Mercury as an evening star is of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as an evening star is the Moonís co-sectarian
along with Venus and Mars.

THUS
If the chart is a day chart

THEN
the diurnal sect is in favour
and the Sun is the sect leader
and Jupiter and Saturn are the planets of the sect in favour:
and IF Mercury is a morning star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour.

If the chart is a night chart
then the nocturnal sect is in favour
and the Moon is the sect leader
and Venus and Mars are of the sect in favour:
and if Mercury is an evening star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour
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  #28  
Unread 04-02-2019, 11:04 PM
Aria Venue Aria Venue is offline
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
thanks for the clarification - it is important
because

beginners/learners are often confused by statements such as


BUT in fact SIGN is not related to SECT
and therefore

it is important for beginners to be aware
that SECT is determined by the SUN alone initially
i.e.
If a planet is not of the sect in favor
then
it is the wrong time of day for the planet.

by the way
keep in mind that

the following more detailed explanation
is for beginners only


Saturn and Jupiter are not of the sect in favor in NIGHT charts
and Venus and Mars are not of the sect in favor in DAY charts.

Mercury as a morning star makes it a diurnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a NIGHT chart

Mercury as an evening star makes it a nocturnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a DAY chart.

Saturn and Jupiter are of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Saturn and Jupiter are the Sunís co-sectarians.

Venus and Mars are of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Venus and Mars are the Moonís co-sectarians.

Mercury as a morning star is of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as a morning star is the Sunís co-sectarian
along with Saturn and Jupiter.

Mercury as an evening star is of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as an evening star is the Moonís co-sectarian
along with Venus and Mars.

THUS
If the chart is a day chart

THEN
the diurnal sect is in favour
and the Sun is the sect leader
and Jupiter and Saturn are the planets of the sect in favour:
and IF Mercury is a morning star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour.

If the chart is a night chart
then the nocturnal sect is in favour
and the Moon is the sect leader
and Venus and Mars are of the sect in favour:
and if Mercury is an evening star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour
hello dear Jupiterasc

I have a question here and i would like you to clarify that if it's possible....I find mercury's orientality occidentality puzzling

ok so the planets are said to be masculine or feminine by:
A.from its own self or from its proper nature...active qualities predominate masculine ...whereas the passive ones predominate feminine
B.by an accidental formality due to extrinsic causes...for example from their own location with respect to that of the sun and the moon..if preceding the Sun (oriental), nocturnal if following it (occidental);those who are oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon are said to be masculine..while those that are occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon feminine.
C.Masculine or feminine by their own location with respect to the horizon 4 quadrants...thus heat and cold prevail said to be masculine...while those planets in the quadrants where passive qualities preside are said to be feminine...etc
D.Masculine or feminine by their position in the signs

Mercury however has a mixed male/female nature and again becomes diurnal if preceding the Sun (oriental), nocturnal if following it (occidental).In relation to the sect though, if poised before the Sun in a diurnal chart, he naturally remains part of the day-time sect, while adheres to the nocturnal sect if placed in a night-time chart....always strictly relative to the Sunís location.

Benefic of the Sect in Favor:In this chart since it's nocturnal and Venus becomes the benefic of the sect in favor, where her reconciliatory nature is heightened as Ďqueení of the nocturnal sect and the Moon is the sect leader...Mercury as an evening star is the Moonís co-sectarian along with Venus and Mars.,,,so as you said Mercury too is of the sect in favour!

Moreover Frawley states that: "If Mercury is oriental it is diurnal, if occidental it is nocturnal.If a diurnal planet is above the Earth (in houses 7-12) in a daytime chart, or below it (in houses 1-6) in a night chart, it is in its halb. So is a nocturnal planet that is above the Earth by night or below it by day. Halb is so minor a consideration that it can always be ignored: it pales into insignificance beside other testimonies.... Mercury takes the nature of whichever planet is (in order of preference) close to conjunction with it, close to aspect with it, or its dispositor. A planet is in its hayz if it is in its halb and also in a sign of its own gender.(2005,p:68)

So in other words here we have a mercury which is: 1.oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon in a nocturnal chart...and then according to J. B. Morin is maskuline by accidental formality (B) while by sect becomes nocturnal placed in a night-time chart.

2.since it's mercury he blends with the feminity of Pisces.(Frawley)

Anyway...i hope you understood what is my point here.I cannot understand if by default mercury is regarded as occidental or oriental..and then if he takes the nature of whichever planet is!

many thanks in advance

Last edited by Aria Venue; 04-03-2019 at 06:23 AM.
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  #29  
Unread 04-03-2019, 12:21 AM
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post


hello dear Jupiterasc
I have a question here and i would like you to clarify that if it's possible....
I find mercury's orientality occidentality puzzling
with the proviso that I'm no expert and simply a learner as is yourself
with reference to Mercury the quicksilver shapeshifter puzzle planet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

ok so the planets are said to be masculine or feminine by:
A.from its own self or from its proper nature...active qualities predominate masculine ...whereas the passive ones predominate feminine
B.by an accidental formality due to extrinsic causes...for example from their own location with respect to that of the sun and the moon..if preceding the Sun (oriental), nocturnal if following it (occidental);those who are oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon are said to be masculine..while those that are occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon feminine.
C.Masculine or feminine by their own location with respect to the horizon 4 quadrants...thus heat and cold prevail said to be masculine...while those planets in the quadrants where passive qualities preside are said to be feminine...etc
D.Masculine or feminine by their position in the signs

Mercury however has a mixed male/female nature
and again becomes diurnal if preceding the Sun (oriental),
nocturnal if following it (occidental).
In relation to the sect though, if poised before the Sun in a diurnal chart,
he naturally remains part of the day-time sect,
while adheres to the nocturnal sect if placed in a night-time chart....always strictly relative to the Sun’s location.
SECT CONDITION OF MERCURY ACCORDING TO HELLENIST ASTROLOGY
source VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY
translated by professor Mark Riley of CSU
and genrously provided free online
at https://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt...s%20entire.pdf

Mercury AS A MORNING STAR is of the DIURNAL sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
thus
Mercury AS A MORNING STAR is the Sun’s co-sectarian
along with Saturn and Jupiter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Benefic of the Sect in Favor:In this chart since it's nocturnal
and Venus becomes the benefic of the sect in favor, w
here her reconciliatory nature is heightened as ‘queen’ of the nocturnal sect and the Moon is the sect leader...
Mercury as an evening star is the Moon’s co-sectarian
along with Venus and Mars.,,,
so as you said Mercury too is of the sect in favour!
If you read over my comments
NOTICE THAT

I have not stated which sect Mercury is of in the chart on this thread
since this is an important issue for this chart
I shall now do so
and
since this chart is nocturnal
and Mercury is a MORNING STAR
because
Mercury rises BEFORE the Sun
and is seen as a MORNING STAR
FOR APPROXIMATELY OVER AN HOUR
BEFORE SUN RISES

then
since MERCURY in this specific chart is a MORNING STAR in a NOCTURNAL CHART
then
MERCURY is NOT of the sect in favor
because

Mercury as a MORNING STAR is the Sun’s co-sectarian
along with Saturn and Jupiter.
thus in this particular chart
Mercury, along with Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are NOT of the sect in favor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Moreover Frawley states that: "If Mercury is oriental it is diurnal, if occidental it is nocturnal.If a diurnal planet is above the Earth (in houses 7-12) in a daytime chart, or below it (in houses 1-6) in a night chart, it is in its halb. So is a nocturnal planet that is above the Earth by night or below it by day. Halb is so minor a consideration that it can always be ignored: it pales into insignificance beside other testimonies.... Mercury takes the nature of whichever planet is (in order of preference) close to conjunction with it, close to aspect with it, or its dispositor. A planet is in its hayz if it is in its halb and also in a sign of its own gender.(2005,p:68)
IN THIS PARTICULAR CHART
using HELLENISTIC SECT DEFINITION

Shapeshifter puzzle quicksilver Mercury is a diurnal planet

and
two thousand years ago VETTIUS VALENS HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGER stated that
If the diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart are below the horizon they are also hayz
so a little more natural
so Mercury in this particular case being a diurnal planet in a nocturnal chart
AND
below the horizon
is therefore a little more natural
albeit not of the party in favor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

So in other words here we have a mercury which is:
1.oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon in a nocturnal chart...
and then according to J. B. Morin is masculine by accidental formality

(B) while by sect becomes nocturnal placed in a night-time chart.

2.since it's mercury he blends with the feminity of Pisces.(Frawley)

Anyway...i hope you understood what is my point here.
I cannot understand if by default mercury is regarded as occidental or oriental..
that's unsurprising

Mercurys default is quicksilver shapeshifter
and so
good luck with finding a default re: Mercury
because
when considering Mercury
the basic default is:

Yes and No
it depends


which is why a certain outer planet is extraneous
Mercury is far more unpredictable

VETTIUS VALENS STATES IN THE ANTHOLOGY AS FOLLOWS


'........MERCURYS effects go in many directions
depending on the changes of the zodia
and the interactions of the stars
and yields quite varied results:
knowledge for some, selling for others, service for others
trade or teaching for others, farming or temple service or public employment for still others.
To some it grants authority, rentals, labor contracting, rhythmical performance
the display of public service, the acquisition of personal attendants
As for the end result
Mercury will make everything capricious in outcome and quite disturbed.

Even more, it causes those having this star in malefic signs or degrees
to become even worse......'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

and then if he takes the nature of whichever planet is!
many thanks in advance
that too
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  #30  
Unread 04-03-2019, 12:54 AM
SunConjunctUranus SunConjunctUranus is offline
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Re: Contact?

Greetings everyone,

I just wish to add that Vettius Valens is not a horarist, so the question now whether sir William Lilly have ever been using planetary sect in his horary practice.

Quick looking at his book, Christian Astrology, I didn't find any sect of the planets. Or maybe because Lilly use other "phrase" when he was elaborating the sect of the planets? May I inqure the page reference for it?

Thank you,
R
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  #31  
Unread 04-03-2019, 01:59 AM
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

Greetings everyone,
I just wish to add that Vettius Valens is not a horarist, so
To Sun

Agreed that Sect concepts of HELLENISTIC ASTROLOGY
were not used for Horary by Vettius Valens
because
there was no Horary at that time
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post

the question now whether sir William Lilly have ever been using planetary sect in his horary practice.
Quick looking at his book, Christian Astrology, I didn't find any sect of the planets.
Or maybe because Lilly use other "phrase" when he was elaborating the sect of the planets?
May I inqure the page reference for it?
Thank you,
R
As a matter of interest
and for discussion and clarification solely
we are in midst of discussion on the original concept of SECT
according to Hellenistic astrology
in order to distinguish from
occidentality and orientality relative to
later Horary astrology
so now we continue our discussion with occidentality and orientality

Benjamin Dykes explains https://www.bendykes.com/product-category/questions/
in introduction to his translation
of Bonatti's 'Book Of Astronomy'
three different ways
in which astrological literature used the terms oriental and occidental:

Quote:

1. Planets are oriental if they rise visibly before the Sun
and occidental if they set visibly after him.
There were differing opinions on the longitudinal interval a planet had to be in
and whether the intervals were of equal significance.

2. Planets are oriental if they are in the eastern quadrant between the Ascendant and Midheaven
i.e., where the Sun rises
or the one opposite to it
and occidental if they are on the western quadrant between the Midheaven and the 7th
i.e.,when the Sun sets
or the one opposite to it.

3. Planets are oriental if they are currently
or within 7 days before or after the nativity
rising out of the Suns beams and will become visible at sunrise or sunset;
they are occidental if they are currently
or within seven days before or after the nativity
sinking into the Suns beams
and will become invisible at sunrise or sunset.
In Hellenistic astrology this was known as phasis
and the distance from the Sun at which this arising or sinking would happen
was standardised at 15 degrees.
According to this definition
the inferiors can be oriental
or pertainingto-arising
on either side of the Sun
since they can arise both while going direct and on their retrograde path.
Book of Astronomy, Guido Bonatti, translated by Benjamin Dykes, 2007, page Ixxxii-Ixxxiii
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  #32  
Unread 04-03-2019, 04:44 AM
Dmarie11 Dmarie11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafaella View Post
There is contact, Moon applied to Mercury, mutual aspect. Moon is angular but in detriment could be describing the heaviness you feel. It is not clear who will contact whom, but it most probable that you would be the one to reach out. Moon has slightly more strength in this. Mercury is just mute and weak.

I don't know why people are mentioning Saturn? Moon is in 8 degree, Mercury rx 16, Saturn at 19. No prohibition.
Thank you for this info!
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  #33  
Unread 04-03-2019, 05:22 AM
Dmarie11 Dmarie11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
thanks for the clarification - it is important
because

beginners/learners are often confused by statements such as


BUT in fact SIGN is not related to SECT
and therefore

it is important for beginners to be aware
that SECT is determined by the SUN alone initially
i.e.
If a planet is not of the sect in favor
then
it is the wrong time of day for the planet.

by the way
keep in mind that

the following more detailed explanation
is for beginners only


Saturn and Jupiter are not of the sect in favor in NIGHT charts
and Venus and Mars are not of the sect in favor in DAY charts.

Mercury as a morning star makes it a diurnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a NIGHT chart

Mercury as an evening star makes it a nocturnal planet
so Mercury is not of the sect in favor in a DAY chart.

Saturn and Jupiter are of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Saturn and Jupiter are the Sunís co-sectarians.

Venus and Mars are of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Venus and Mars are the Moonís co-sectarians.

Mercury as a morning star is of the diurnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as a morning star is the Sunís co-sectarian
along with Saturn and Jupiter.

Mercury as an evening star is of the nocturnal sect
whether or not that sect is in favour.
Mercury as an evening star is the Moonís co-sectarian
along with Venus and Mars.

THUS
If the chart is a day chart

THEN
the diurnal sect is in favour
and the Sun is the sect leader
and Jupiter and Saturn are the planets of the sect in favour:
and IF Mercury is a morning star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour.

If the chart is a night chart
then the nocturnal sect is in favour
and the Moon is the sect leader
and Venus and Mars are of the sect in favour:
and if Mercury is an evening star, then Mercury too is of the sect in favour
Thank you for the explanations, as Iím most definitely a beginner!
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  #34  
Unread 04-03-2019, 12:50 PM
Aria Venue Aria Venue is offline
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Re: Contact?

First of all I would like to thank Jupiterasc and SunConjunctUranus for this very useful information that provided us and of course Tikana, Chrysalis and Rafaella, since without their participation on this thread we wouldn't have started this useful conversation.Till now i used to think that mercury becomes male if with male planets,female if with female....by taking the nature of whichever planet is (in order of preference) close to conjunction with it, close to aspect with it, or its dispositor.

So to sum up according to all the above ...and please correct me if i am wrong:

In this chart since we have a mercury that is:

A)regarding his male or female nature:

1a) oriental to the sun{ since the clockwise distance from him to the sun is shorter than the anticlockwise distance} or seeing differently as Jupiterasc enlightened us before...located in the eastern quadrant between the Ascendant and Midheaven where the Sun rises.

1b)Is occidental to the moon since if follows it

1c)So that makes him masculine {those who are oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon are said to be masculine..while those that are occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon feminine} (Astrologia Gallica Book 13, p:47)

B)regarding the Sect in Favor

As Jupiterasc said before... and keeping in mind that he's indeed oriental...so since this chart is nocturnal and Mercury is a MORNING STAR, thus diurnal and he retains this attribute also in a nocturnal chart...then indeed he's not of the sect in favor...such as Sun, Jupiter and Saturn ...because simply they are diurnals.

In order to be of the sect in favor in this particular chart he should have been occidental to the sun and then along with Venus and Mars.,he could become benefic of the sect in favor and Moon’s co-sectarian ...and then in such case he would also change his nature to a female one, by being occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon.

All in all mercury in this chart is located in a sign which is contradictory to its masculine nature and he's not of the sect in favor!...though these two things are different. And since he's diurnal in a nocturnal chart and below the horizon is in his hayz... so a little more natural!

Yet Frawley states the following:"A planet is in its hayz if it is in its halb and also in a sign of its own gender"(2005, 68) and then he continues ...."Lilly and authors working from him without other reference state mistakenly that a nocturnal planet should be above the Earth by day and below it by night. Lilly (Christian Astrology p.113) is following the French astrologer Dariot, who gives the correct version, but in such a muddy fashion that it is easy to see how Lilly picked up the wrong end of the stick ....The correct version is clearly explained in Abu'l-Rayhan Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Al-Biruni, The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, trans. R Ramsey Wright, Lmac, London, 1934; reprinted Ascella, Nottingham, n.d.; para. 496." (Frawley, 2005,p: 68)

So seeing in this chart mercury in its halb (diurnal planet below the Earth (in houses 1-6) in a night chart) but masculine (oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon) is indeed in his gender...thus in its hayz...OR NOT?

Moreover I realize, as you already stated that these considerations have minimum application to horary charts...since sect in favor belongs to other methodologies(Hellenistic technique for the purposes of chart delineation) mostly used in natal interpretation.The latter is indeed also stated from Frawley in his book "is with reference only to natal charts, where the distinction between oriental and occidental is important" (2005, p:68).

However they are considered important as to judge the power that moon has to act
...thus:"The Moon occidental is increasing in light, oriental is decreasing in light." Generally, the more light the Moon has - the closer it is to full- the stronger it is and so the more able it is to act. It is also stronger if it is increasing in light (moving from new to full Moon) than if it is decreasing in light (moving from full to new).
But at full it is weak so its optimum position is around separating trine to the Sun: there it has lots of light and is still increasing. This point is important if the Moon is the planet whose aspect is showing the event in question.!(Frawley,2005, p:64-65)

***By definition, the word ‘sect’ implies a separation, or bisection, that forms a grouping of astrological similitudes. Sect introduces the concept of astrological alliances (not unlike a ‘religious sect’) that establish unification within a specified division. Essentially, sect divides planets, signs, and hemispheres into two main polarities: diurnal and nocturnal. By doing so, a clearer understanding of planetary affiliation arises, an insight applicable to any given chart. Primarily, sect is a qualitative factor that modifies the benefic or malefic implications of planets in any given chart.

By default, the traditional planets are deemed diurnal if they are masculine, while the nocturnal planets are considered feminine, respectively. Therefore, the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are of the diurnal (or day-time) sect, while the Moon, Venus, and Mars belong to the nocturnal (or nighttime) sect.

Malleable Mercury
What about Mercury? Well, the flexible, fleet-footed Messenger takes a semi-neutral stance on the topic of sect, since the Messenger relies on the position of the Sun. In other words, if poised before the Sun in a diurnal chart, he naturally remains part of the day-time sect, while adhering to the nocturnal sect if placed in a night-time chart....Mercury’s position relative to the Sun determines its sect. If Mercury rises ahead of the Sun, even in a night chart, it is diurnal. If it rises after the Sun, even in a day chart, it is nocturnal.

{https://saturnandthesun.com/2018/10/17/sect-in-astrology/}

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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

First of all I would like to thank Jupiterasc and SunConjunctUranus
for this very useful information that provided us
and of course Tikana, Chrysalis and Rafaella, since without their participation on this thread
we wouldn't have started this useful conversation.
Agreed that sharing our opinions enhances our individual perspectives
and thank you for engaging in this deeper discussion
inspired by Mercurys shapeshifting quicksilver puzzling disposition
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Till now i used to think that mercury becomes male if with male planets,
female if with female....
by taking the nature of whichever planet is
(in order of preference) close to conjunction with it,
close to aspect with it,
or its dispositor.
So to sum up according to all the above
...and please correct me if i am wrong:
In this chart since we have a mercury that is:

A) regarding his male or female nature:

1a) oriental to the sun { since the clockwise distance from him to the sun is shorter than the anticlockwise distance}
or seeing differently as Jupiterasc enlightened us before..
.located in the eastern quadrant between the Ascendant and Midheaven where the Sun rises.

1b)Is occidental to the moon since if follows it

1c) So that makes him masculine
{those who are oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon
are said to be masculine..
while those that are occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon feminine}
(Astrologia Gallica Book 13, p:47)
Thank you for a very clear summary based on Astrologia Gallica info
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

B) regarding the Sect in Favor

As Jupiterasc said before...
and keeping in mind that he's indeed oriental...
so
since this chart is nocturnal

and
Mercury is a MORNING STAR, thus diurnal
and he retains this attribute also in a nocturnal chart...
then indeed he's not of the sect in favor
...such as Sun, Jupiter and Saturn ...because simply they are diurnals.

In order to be of the sect in favor in this particular chart
he should have been occidental to the sun
and then along with Venus and Mars.
he could become benefic of the sect in favor
and Moon’s co-sectarian ...
and then in such case he would also change his nature to a female one,
by being occidental to the sun and oriental to the moon.
Let's keep in mind also that we are discussing VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY SECT doctrine
and it is important to remember
as SUN usefully reminds us
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunConjunctUranus View Post
Greetings everyone,

I just wish to add that Vettius Valens is not a horarist,
so the question now whether sir William Lilly have ever been using planetary sect
in his horary practice.
Quick looking at his book, Christian Astrology,
I didn't find any sect of the planets.
Or maybe because Lilly use other "phrase" when he was elaborating the sect of the planets?
May I inqure the page reference for it?
Thank you,
R
William Lilly was wealthy and had access to vast libraries
so honed his methods from wide reading
William Lilly also wrote on NATAL ASTROLOGY AS WELL
Christian astrology pdf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

All in all mercury in this chart
is located in a sign which is contradictory to its masculine nature
Yes and No
Mercury may be either "masculine" or "feminine"
dependent on the conditions of any particular chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

and he's not of the sect in favor!...
though these two things are different.

And since he's diurnal in a nocturnal chart
and below the horizon is in his hayz...

so a little more natural!
"a little more natural" for Mercury is aka shapeshifter quicksilver puzzler
as is increasingly obvious
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Yet Frawley states the following:
"A planet is in its hayz if it is in its halb and also in a sign of its own gender"(2005, 68)
and then he continues ....
"Lilly and authors working from him without other reference state mistakenly
that a nocturnal planet should be above the Earth by day and below it by night.
Lilly (Christian Astrology p.113) is following the French astrologer Dariot,
who gives the correct version, but in such a muddy fashion
that it is easy to see how Lilly picked up the wrong end of the stick ....
The correct version is clearly explained in Abu'l-Rayhan Muhammad Ibn Ahmad Al-Biruni,
The Book of Instruction in the Elements of the Art of Astrology, trans.
R Ramsey Wright, Lmac, London, 1934; reprinted Ascella, Nottingham, n.d.; para. 496." (Frawley, 2005,p: 68)

So seeing in this chart mercury in its halb
(diurnal planet below the Earth (in houses 1-6) in a night chart)
but masculine (oriental to the sun and occidental to the moon)
is indeed in his gender...thus in its hayz
...OR NOT?

seems that Mercury as usual remains a puzzling quicksilver shapeshifter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Moreover I realize, as you already stated

that these considerations have minimum application to horary charts...
since sect in favor belongs to other methodologies
(Hellenistic technique for the purposes of chart delineation)
mostly used in natal interpretation.
The latter is indeed also stated from Frawley in his book
"is with reference only to natal charts, where the distinction between oriental and occidental is important" (2005, p:68).
As SUN mentions previously
these considerations have minimum application to horary
albeit they provide useful background considerations
throwing more light on the issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post


However they are considered important
as to judge the power that moon has to act

...thus:
"The Moon occidental is increasing in light, oriental is decreasing in light."
Generally, the more light the Moon has - the closer it is to full
- the stronger it is and so the more able it is to act.
It is also stronger if it is increasing in light (moving from new to full Moon)
than if it is decreasing in light (moving from full to new).
But at full it is weak so its optimum position is around separating trine to the Sun:
there it has lots of light and is still increasing.
This point is important if the Moon is the planet whose aspect is showing the event in question.!(Frawley,2005, p:64-65)

In horary Moon is most important planet regarding outcome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

***By definition, the word ‘sect’ implies a separation, or bisection,
that forms a grouping of astrological similitudes.
Sect introduces the concept of astrological alliances (not unlike a ‘religious sect’)
that establish unification within a specified division.
Essentially, sect divides planets, signs, and hemispheres
into two main polarities: diurnal and nocturnal.
By doing so, a clearer understanding of planetary affiliation arises,
an insight applicable to any given chart.
so by highlighting the concepts of ASTROLOGICAL ALLIANCES
which clearly may affect the outcome of the horary
then
sect may usefully be applied to horary as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

Primarily, sect is a qualitative factor
that modifies the benefic or malefic implications of planets in any given chart.

By default,

the traditional planets are deemed diurnal if they are masculine,

while the nocturnal planets are considered feminine, respectively.

Therefore, the Sun, Jupiter and Saturn are of the diurnal (or day-time) sect,

while the Moon, Venus, and Mars belong to the nocturnal (or nighttime) sect.

Malleable Mercury
What about Mercury?

Well, the flexible, fleet-footed Messenger takes a semi-neutral stance on the topic of sect,
since the Messenger relies on the position of the Sun.

In other words, if poised before the Sun in a diurnal chart, he naturally remains part of the day-time sect,
while adhering to the nocturnal sect if placed in a night-time chart....
Mercury’s position relative to the Sun determines its sect.

If Mercury rises ahead of the Sun, even in a night chart, it is diurnal.

If it rises after the Sun, even in a day chart, it is nocturnal.

{https://saturnandthesun.com/2018/10/17/sect-in-astrology/}
well summarised
many thanks
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf

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  #36  
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Re: Contact?

I have to thank you all my dear Jupiterasc cause you gave me the chance to gain another perception of the matter...though in this specific chart I am still puzzled if mercury is indeed in its hayz or not (regarding him as masculine and diurnal)As you said Mercury as usual remains a puzzling quicksilver shapeshifter


Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Agreed that sharing our opinions enhances our individual perspectives
and thank you for engaging in this deeper discussion
inspired by Mercurys shapeshifting quicksilver puzzling disposition

Thank you for a very clear summary based on Astrologia Gallica info

Let's keep in mind also that we are discussing VETTIUS VALENS THE ANTHOLOGY SECT doctrine
and it is important to remember
as SUN usefully reminds us

William Lilly was wealthy and had access to vast libraries
so honed his methods from wide reading
William Lilly also wrote on NATAL ASTROLOGY AS WELL
Christian astrology pdf

Yes and No
Mercury may be either "masculine" or "feminine"
dependent on the conditions of any particular chart


"a little more natural" for Mercury is aka shapeshifter quicksilver puzzler
as is increasingly obvious



seems that Mercury as usual remains a puzzling quicksilver shapeshifter

As SUN mentions previously
these considerations have minimum application to horary
albeit they provide useful background considerations
throwing more light on the issues




In horary Moon is most important planet regarding outcome

so by highlighting the concepts of ASTROLOGICAL ALLIANCES
which clearly may affect the outcome of the horary
then
sect may usefully be applied to horary as well

well summarised
many thanks
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

I have to thank you all my dear Jupiterasc
cause you gave me the chance to gain another perception of the matter
...though in this specific chart I am still puzzled
if mercury is indeed in its hayz or not
(regarding him as masculine and diurnal)
As you said Mercury as usual remains a puzzling quicksilver shapeshifter
our generous member benefactor petosiris
has prepared and posted a tabular illustration for us
summarizing Chapters 4 - 7 of the Tetrabiblos in table
relevant to puzzling quicksilver shapeshifter mercury
and I quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post






Chapters 4 - 7 of the Tetrabiblos in table

Mercury is diurnal when morning rising, and nocturnal when evening rising,
but this is result of the fact that it is more drying in the west,
and thus attains good admixture as in the case of Mars.
I plan to make more tables for the other chapters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post



__________________
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Re: Contact?

this is amazing!!!!! i love you guys still the road to Vettius Valens its a hard one for me
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Unread 04-12-2019, 09:39 AM
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Re: Contact?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aria Venue View Post

this is amazing!!!!! i love you guys
still the road to Vettius Valens its a hard one for me
petosiris summary is very helpful

on a road with magnificent scenery for interesting as well as useful travels
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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