Does he love me?

My question is simple:does he love me???

Kacci said:

My question is simple:does he love me???

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you = Saturn and cosignified by Moon
he = Sun

You/Saturn are not so strong in this matter, being peregrine [without essential dignity] and in the unfortunate 8th house. With him/Sun in his dignity and his own house [within a few degrees of the 7th house cusp], its looks like he is pretty self-involved. There is neither favorable reception between Saturn and Sun, nor is there an applying aspect.

If we look to Moon as your cosignificator, it is in its fall in Scorpio, so again not favorable, and there is also no aspect between Moon and Sun.

So given all these indicators, it seems very likely that he does not love you.

IleneK said:

you = Saturn and cosignified by Moon
he = Sun

You/Saturn are not so strong in this matter, being peregrine [without essential dignity] and in the unfortunate 9th house. With him/Sun in his dignity and his own house [within a few degrees of the 7th house cusp], its looks like he is pretty self-involved. There is neither favorable reception between Saturn and Sun, nor is there an applying aspect.

If we look to Moon as your cosignificator, it is in its fall in Scorpio, so again not favorable, and there is also no aspect between Moon and Sun.

So given all these indicators, it seems very likely that he does not love you.

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Not sure, but I think my analysis may have to be withdrawn. My understanding is that from a traditional viewpoint, the first thing we are supposed to do is determine if the chart is radical, that is, can be read, by evaluating the Ruler of the Hour. I regret that I failed to do that ahead of time, and, as I do it now, it appears to me that the chart is not radical, cannot be read.

Perhaps someone with greater experience will come along and find an error in my Ruler of the Chart evaluation. But if not, then I must retract my delineation and suggest that if the question is truly a pressing, considered and meaningful concern to you, please re-ask it at a later time.

IleneK said:

Perhaps someone with greater experience will come along and find an error in my Ruler of the Chart evaluation. But if not, then I must retract my delineation and suggest that if the question is truly a pressing, considered and meaningful concern to you, please re-ask it at a later time.

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Well I'm no expert either but I think you are correct re hour ruler not being in agreement. That said, after all the debate on another thread(s) about a late ASC, I wonder if a non-radical chart really can't be read?

BobZemco said:

How odd is it that the one and only thing that actually, really, truly does prevent a chart from being read is an incongruous Hour Ruler....

Here's a great analogy....

Three men are brutally beating and raping a woman...and you all stand there screaming at a small child who dropped his ice cream cone on the ground.

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That thread evolved into a discussion on the strictures or considerations when judging charts, and it seemed pretty clear that a non radical chart was the only one not fit to be judged at all. Except

BobZemco said:

When does Bonatti say the chart is invalid?

He never once says so.

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I'm quoting Bob because those two ideas seem incongruous.

What is the hour ruler, and why is agreement important? The hour ruler is the hour watcher, and there are an awful lot of things to watch in an hour. So it seems to me that if there is no agreement between the ASC ruler and the Hour ruler it would be because the hour ruler is watching something else.

Which for me at least absolutely begs the questions...why does this render the chart unreadable, and can we tell from the chart what the hour ruler is watching, if it isn't the question posed? Is this just another warning for the astrologer that there is something else going on with the chart?

Aside from that Ilene, I agree with your first assessment, and I think that if we look a little harder (after or if we can answer the question about the hour ruler) we can even tell why.

Hello, tamara.

tsmall said:

Well I'm no expert either but I think you are correct re hour ruler not being in agreement. That said, after all the debate on another thread(s) about a late ASC, I wonder if a non-radical chart really can't be read?

...

That thread evolved into a discussion on the strictures or considerations when judging charts, and it seemed pretty clear that a non radical chart was the only one not fit to be judged at all. Except



I'm quoting Bob because those two ideas seem incongruous.

What is the hour ruler, and why is agreement important? The hour ruler is the hour watcher, and there are an awful lot of things to watch in an hour. So it seems to me that if there is no agreement between the ASC ruler and the Hour ruler it would be because the hour ruler is watching something else.

Which for me at least absolutely begs the questions...why does this render the chart unreadable, and can we tell from the chart what the hour ruler is watching, if it isn't the question posed? Is this just another warning for the astrologer that there is something else going on with the chart?

Aside from that Ilene, I agree with your first assessment, and I think that if we look a little harder (after or if we can answer the question about the hour ruler) we can even tell why.

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Thanks for confirming the lack of agreement between the hour ruler and the ascendant. I also confess that I don't know the underlying reason why a non-radical chart should not be read, or even for sure, if it should not be read, and that was bothering me. Also, as you now raise, what the hour watcher is watching. Good questions all.

Here is the comment from Bob that gave me pause in this matter, and perhaps I do not have all the context for his comment in my head:

BobZemco said:

...
This is the first thing done once a chart is cast. Identify the Hour Ruler then determine if the chart is Radical.

A non-Radical Chart cannot be read.

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If we become satisfied that it can be read, I would be most interested to analyze more closely as to why the delineation might be correct.

Cheers,

IleneK said:

Not sure, but I think my analysis may have to be withdrawn. My understanding is that from a traditional viewpoint, the first thing we are supposed to do is determine if the chart is radical, that is, can be read, by evaluating the Ruler of the Hour. I regret that I failed to do that ahead of time, and, as I do it now, it appears to me that the chart is not radical, cannot be read.

Perhaps someone with greater experience will come along and find an error in my Ruler of the Chart evaluation. But if not, then I must retract my delineation and suggest that if the question is truly a pressing, considered and meaningful concern to you, please re-ask it at a later time.

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Good call.

tsmall said:

What is the hour ruler, and why is agreement important? The hour ruler is the hour watcher, and there are an awful lot of things to watch in an hour. So it seems to me that if there is no agreement between the ASC ruler and the Hour ruler it would be because the hour ruler is watching something else.

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Is that how you think? That's excellent astrology right there. Incorporating the fundamental principles is key.

tsmall said:

Which for me at least absolutely begs the questions...why does this render the chart unreadable, and can we tell from the chart what the hour ruler is watching, if it isn't the question posed? Is this just another warning for the astrologer that there is something else going on with the chart?

Aside from that Ilene, I agree with your first assessment, and I think that if we look a little harder (after or if we can answer the question about the hour ruler) we can even tell why.

Click to expand...

IleneK said:

Thanks for confirming the lack of agreement between the hour ruler and the ascendant. I also confess that I don't know the underlying reason why a non-radical chart should not be read, or even for sure, if it should not be read, and that was bothering me. Also, as you now raise, what the hour watcher is watching. Good questions all.

If we become satisfied that it can be read, I would be most interested to analyze more closely as to why the delineation might be correct.

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It's extremely rare to cast an Horary and have the Hour Ruler out of agreement.

"Considerations Before Judgment" have a long and distinguished history of being garbled and mangled. These considerations are merely warnings to the astrologer that the astrologer may err.

That's different than the lack of Hour Ruler agreement. I think Bonatti classifies that as a Consideration but it really isn't, and it seems Lilly caught the error and corrected it.

The lack of Hour Ruler agreement indicates there's something fundamentally flawed with the Chart.

I realize it's rather unpleasant, but think of the chart as being "still-born."

I've always treated such charts as being a "Cease & Desist Order" issued by the Court of the Universe.

Am I surprised that this chart has an incongruous Hour Ruler?

No, I am not at all surprised.

That person has repeatedly asked the same question over and over and over, and has at least four charts in the last 6-8 weeks concerning a relationship with a certain guy.

Am I going on the trip? and Will we have sex on the trip? and Is he angry with me? and Does he love me? are all the same question.

They are all the same question, because the out-come/end goal/end-game/desired result is a relationship with a particular individual.

Her questions have been answered...accurately for the most part....and the answer is "NO."

Note that in this chart there is a Fixed Sign Ascendant and both the Primary Significator (Saturn) and Co-Significator (Moon) are in Fixed Signs.

That isn't "NO" rather that is "NEVER."

I've always been of the opinion that when such charts arise, the Querent should stop pursuing whatever matter it might be, and if they do not, then they will suffer serious consequences such as traumatic physical injury or death. Occasionally, a bad Hour Ruler will pop up on Buying and Selling, like a used car, or on Travel and similar things.

I don't have the time to spend on it, but you all have my blessing if you want to try and figure out the mystery behind the Hour Ruler. Research in Astrology is always welcome, and I trust the both of you. The problem is going to be finding enough charts with an incongruous Hour Ruler to study.

When i cast a horary chart for health related issue and the chart has NO relationship between the hour and the ascendant, does the chart simply unable to give answer or this means something else?


(sorry Kassi for asking on your thread but all threads are giving light to people with less or no knowledge)

DreamingTheSeas said:

When i cast a horary chart for health related issue and the chart has NO relationship between the hour and the ascendant, does the chart simply unable to give answer or this means something else?

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As I understand it, if the Planetary Hour house is not in agreement with the ascendant, then the chart is not radical and cannot be read [see Bob's quote below. You may want to read his entire post].

BobZemco said:

The lack of Hour Ruler agreement indicates there's something fundamentally flawed with the Chart.

I realize it's rather unpleasant, but think of the chart as being "still-born."

I've always treated such charts as being a "Cease & Desist Order" issued by the Court of the Universe.

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And again, as I understand it, agreement between them may be determined by examining if:
Hour Ruler is the asc ruler
Hour Ruler and asc [or asc ruler] are of the same triplicity
Hour Ruler has same humoral nature as asc

Thank you Ilenek. My question was not asked clearly, and that is my 100% fault.
Does the lack of the Hour agreement only shows us that the chart is not radical and thats it. I will cast another someday and i will forget the not radical chart like never casted. Right?

No aspect between the sat & sun means a no

DreamingTheSeas said:

Thank you Ilenek. My question was not asked clearly, and that is my 100% fault.
Does the lack of the Hour agreement only shows us that the chart is not radical and thats it. I will cast another someday and i will forget the not radical chart like never casted. Right?

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Yes, that is my understanding from this thread, to ignore the chart.