Another name for the sign of "Cancer"

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david starling

Well-known member
graay ghost said:
Ancient alternatives for Cancer were snapping turtles and various beetles... I don't think a mermaid would work well, here.
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I first got the idea from the symbol for Pisces, the two fish swimming in opposite directions, representing the the two Signs of Solstice. So, it's definitely a Tropical view. The lower fish symbolizing Capricorn was already envisioned as a Goatfish, or Sea-goat, and the Merman is a good counterpart for the upper fish. But, there's a feminine feel to the Sign of the upper fish, and a nice balance between masculine and feminine is achieved by the Mermaid specifically. Since the term "man" is commonly used to include women ("mankind", etc.) The term "Merman" might be more appropriate than Mermaid. I definitely think the Sign should be humanized though. I prefer the name "Mer", to emphasize the Water-element, the (Sign-ruler)Moon's effect on the Sea, and to avoid the gender issue.
 
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petosiris

Banned
david starling said:
I first got the idea from the symbol for Pisces, the two fish swimming in opposite directions, representing the the two Signs of Solstice. So, it's definitely a Tropical view. The lower fish symbolizing Capricorn was already envisioned as a Goatfish, or Sea-goat, and the Merman is a good counterpart for the upper fish. But, there's a feminine feel to the Sign of the upper fish, and a nice balance between masculine and feminine is achieved by the Mermaid specifically. Since the term "man" is commonly used to include women ("mankind", etc.) The term "Merman" might be more appropriate than Mermaid. I definitely think the Sign should be humanized though. I prefer the name "Mer", to emphasize the Water-element, the (Sign-ruler)Moon's effect on the Sea, and to avoid the gender issue.
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But Heracles was attacked by a crab, not a mermaid.
 
Whoam1

Whoam1

Well-known member
david starling said:
What sign is associated with him?
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None as he is his own constellation. However he has an entire group of constellations in his name. These are-
"The Hercules Family is a group of 19 constellations composed of Hercules, Sagitta, Aquila, Lyra, Cygnus, Vulpecula, Hydra, Sextans, Crater, Corvus, Ophiuchus, Serpens, Scutum, Centaurus, Lupus, Corona Australis, Ara, Triangulum Australe, and Crux. It is the largest constellation family, spanning from +60° down to –70°, mostly in the western hemisphere."

So if you ask me the most obvious choice of Hercules archetype in a sign is in sidereal sag. The picture of the Centuar with a human and dog head, wings, a giant cock and a scorpion tail tells a story so similar to Hercules. It's about turning from an animal/bestial-primal creature, into a strong fair and just man(and posibly becoming more than a man).

Sag is one of the weirdest placed constellations btw. It's shoved between a scorpion, a dude being chocked by a snake and a horny wild goat fish. It is considered slightly more civil and yet is shoved between constellations that are wild, vulgar,and down right nasty. Also doesn't this sound a bit like Hercules too?
 
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petosiris

Banned
david starling said:
What sign is associated with him?
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Greek mythology took a lot from Babylonian star-lore and religion. If you are asking about a sign related to Hercules, the twelve labours involve the twelve constellations of the zodiac and a few outside it like the Hydra.

The constellation of Heracles was not always associated with the god, Ptolemy and Manilius have the Engonasin (''on his knees'') instead.

''the one in the head in advance the same as Mercury; it is also called the star of Apollo; the one in the head that follows, the same as Mars; it is also called the star of Hercules'' - Robbins, http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Ptolemy/Tetrabiblos/1B*.html#9

Ptolemy had Heracles to Pollux. This is why it is associated with wrestlers traditionally. Not sure where and why the two star-lore traditions diverged.
 
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CapAquaPis

CapAquaPis

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Cancer can be Cancri - another Latin term for crab. Or Canis Media - middle dog, compared to adjacent constellations Canis Major - the big dog (with the brightest magnitude star of all, Sirius) and Canis Minor - the little dog. Dogs are thought to be representative of family relationships, just like the sign Cancer itself. I prefer to call it a crab instead of dog, even if both coincidentally start with the term "CAN".
 
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david starling

Well-known member
CapAquaPis said:
Cancer can be Cancri - another Latin term for crab. Or Canis Media - middle dog, compared to adjacent constellations Canis Major - the big dog (with the brightest magnitude star of all, Sirius) and Canis Minor - the little dog. Dogs are thought to be representative of family relationships, just like the sign Cancer itself. I prefer to call it a crab instead of dog, even if both coincidentally start with the term "CAN".
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Moonchild then, if it's just the association with a dreaded disease. That's how it's handled in those Sun-sign columns. But, consider the connection of the mermaid-image to children. Not a lot of crab connections. :biggrin:
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Another connection between the Seagoat for Capricorn and the Mer-person (since the Merman is included with the Mermaid) for the opposite Sign :cancer:, is that they both can exist in the water and on dry land. The lore has it that Mer-people (or, Mers, as I prefer to call them) can transform their fishes tails into legs, and walk. The Ancient Greek story about Pan, who symbolizes Capricorn in this context, was that he transformed his hind legs into a fishes tail in order to escape an enemy.
So, Mer for :cancer: has that same land/water ability as the conventional crab-image, and shares it with its Capricornian counterpart.
 
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petosiris

Banned
david starling said:
Another connection between the Seagoat for Capricorn and the Mer-person (since the Merman is included with the Mermaid) for the opposite Sign :cancer:, is that they both can exist in the water and on dry land. The lore has it that Mer-people (or, Mers, as I prefer to call them) can transform their fishes tails into legs, and walk. The Ancient Greek story about Pan, who symbolizes Capricorn in this context, was that he transformed his hind legs into a fishes tail in order to escape an enemy.
So, Mer for :cancer: has that same land/water ability as the conventional crab-image, and shares it with its Capricornian counterpart.
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Do you even know the origin of the twelve signs of the zodiac?
 
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petosiris

Banned
david starling said:
Why use modern language? Astrology is a language. Times have changed. I understand the meanings.
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Language is a great way to understand astrology, specifically the Greek language. The word zodiac comes from the Greek ''zωδιακός κύκλος'' or circle of zoidia and the signs themselves were referred to as ''zoidia'' which have the dual meaning of ''images'' or the diminutive form of animal - ''little animals''.

Translators of ancient astrological texts like Robert Schmidt and academics like Dorian Greenbaum initially left the word untranslated (because of the dual meaning), but have recently settled translating the word as ''image'' - for example instead of ''the sign of Cancer'', they would say ''the image of the Crab'' (it seems that the Greek authors used more in the sense of image).

One of the definitions of the Latin translation ''signum'' initially also meant image, but that is no longer relevant in modern English, so the word ''sign'' is actually no longer accurate and somewhat misleading in the context of understanding the development of the zodiac in western astrology.

Of course, the images are based on the constellations, since every single astrologer saw a crab instead of a mermaid, you have the image of the Crab in the zodiac. This equally applies to the other signs.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Language is a great way to understand astrology, specifically the Greek language. The word zodiac comes from the Greek ''zωδιακός κύκλος'' or circle of zoidia and the signs themselves were referred to as ''zoidia'' which has the dual meaning of ''image'' or the diminutive form of animal - ''little animal''.

Translators of ancient astrological texts like Robert Schmidt and academics like Dorian Greenbaum initially left the word untranslated (because of the dual meaning), but have recently settled translating the word as ''image'' - for example instead of ''the sign of Cancer'', they would say ''the image of the Crab'' (it seems that the Greek authors used more in the sense of image).

One of the definitions of the Latin translation ''signum'' initially also meant image, but that is no longer relevant in modern English, so the word ''sign'' is actually no longer accurate and somewhat misleading in the context of understanding the development of the zodiac in western astrology.

Of course, the images are based on the constellations, since every single astrologer saw a crab instead of a mermaid, you have the image of the Crab in the zodiac. This equally applies to the other signs.
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NO disagreement at ALL, in ANY of the versions of Astrology over the millenia?! Doesn't sound like the Astrologers of today!
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Here's a pet peeve of mine regarding the modern naming of the Planet :uranus:--it's not the name of a Greek OR Roman god. The Greek for the father of Cronus was Ouranos. The Roman version was Caelus. Like Cronus to Saturn, Zeus to Jupiter, Hermes to Mercury, etc. "Uranus" is an attempt to Latinize a Greek name, when there was already a Latin name for that same god. :annoyed:
 
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petosiris

Banned
david starling said:
Here's a pet peeve of mine regarding the modern naming of the Planet :uranus:--it's not the name of a Greek OR Roman god. The Greek for the father of Cronus was Ouranos. The Roman version was Caelus. Like Cronus to Saturn, Zeus to Jupiter, Hermes to Mercury, etc. "Uranus" is an attempt to Latinize a Greek name, when there was already a Latin name for that same god. :annoyed:
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Mars was known as the ''Fiery One'', Saturn as ''the Shining One'', Jupiter as ''the Radiant One'' Venus as ''Light-Bringer'', Mercury as ''Twinkling One'', by extension Uranus should be the ''faint one''.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
petosiris said:
Mars was known as the ''Fiery One'', Saturn as ''the Shining One'', Jupiter as ''the Radiant One'' Venus as ''Light-Bringer'', Mercury as ''Twinkling One'', by extension Uranus should be the ''faint one''.
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Reminds me of "A still small voice" from the Book of Kings, in Scripture.
And, "Uranus" is a false name. It's either Ouranos or Caelus.
 
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