Libra Sun conjunct Pisces Moon?

tsmall

Premium Member
Hi tsmall. Good luck with your endeavours. Perhaps it would be relevant which way round the Nodal axis was too - i.e. North Node conjunct the Sun or North Node conjunct the Moon. Some people associate the South Node with habits remaining from the past (sounds very lunar) and the North Node with qualities needing to be developed in order for consciousness to increase (sounds very solar). So perhaps if the South Node is conjunct the Sun, and the North Node conjunct the Moon, there would be a merging of Sun and Moon energies.

Taking the Nodal axis to mean the kinds of associations you will make with others, having both the Sun and the Moon on the axis may bring them together through these associations, too.

However, without wanting to challenge your own perceptions of how your chart manifests, I would point out that your case is far from a straightforward example of a lunar eclipse. I didn't register it fully before but your Sun Moon opposition is part of a very large T-square, involving Sun, Moon, Mars, Chiron, Uranus and Pluto, as well as the Nodal axis. Some of the aspects involved in this are very close.

Although you said you could identify with the part about not feeling comfortable with asserting your own desires, this T-square suggests that nonetheless you are capable of being single minded - Sun square Mars, conjunct Uranus, conjunct Pluto - despite the sensitivities to others shown by the Libra and Pisces prominence.

I would also point out that in this case, the opposition of Sun and moon does not fall particularly close to the Nodal axis, and indeed the Sun is already over ten degrees separating from its conjunction to the South Node.

I'm inclined to tentatively speculate that the part of you that identifies with the Sun conjunct Moon quote that you posted is actually reflected in parts of your chart other than the Pisces Moon, and not in a merging of Sun and Moon through their contact with the Nodal axis. Do you feel in touch with your Pisces Moon? - whatever else is happening in the chart, you should look to cultivate the qualities associated with that planet sign placement. Even someone with Sun at one degree Aries and Moon at 29 degrees Pisces would need to do this - despite the 'New Moon' general interpretations telling them that they are single minded and decisive, they still have that rather diffuse and malleable Pisces Moon to feed!

I would urge anyone looking at their chart to keep a sense of proportion between the factors - to look for the prominent themes in one's life in the prominent chart factors before looking to more obscure and hypothetical to explain things. But I also respect your need to question and explore.

Hi miquar. I truly understand your caution to keep a sense of proportion about what may or may not be happening in a chart. I also do not mind at all if any experienced astrologer is willing to take the time to help me see where I am wrong in interpretations. Everyone was new at one time, and the only way we can learn to correctly understand is to try, and to have others show us where we are correct or incorrect in our thinking.

For a little history on how I came to ask the original question, in exploring my chart I was able to find much information about the aspects, and houses, some of which resonated, and a lot of which did not. Based on further study, I realized that what was missing was an indepth description of how planets behave in signs, as opposed to houses. This led me to look into more traditional interpretations of planets in signs, which then led to a "kinship" with whole sign. So I set about to understand each of my planets by sign, degree, rulership, terms, bounds, et. al. In my learning, I believe that though planets might be in aspect by mathematical degree, their sign and house position could or would negate the aspect. Some astrologers state unequivocally that out of sign aspects can happen, while others say just as strongly that they in fact cannot. The jury is still out for me on which to follow, but one needs to start somewhere.

Further, when using whole sign, and again after only two months I may have this incorrectly, planets are in their houses/signs. Period. Meaning that Moon in Pisces in 6th is in 6th, not 7th. This makes sense when one considers that in either Placidus or Equal house (both of the currently most used house systems) the "cusp" of the 7th would fall at 12* Aries in my chart, placing it approx. 15* away from my moon. If you looked at the chart in your preferred house system, you likely wouldn't describe the opposition as being between the 1st/7th houses?

Going back to the idea (just consider?) that out of sign aspects don't occur, we are looking at a Perigrine moon in Pisces in 6th house (house of servants/service to others,) cadent, whose traditional ruler is Jupiter, in detriment in Libra, (though accidentally dignified in the 1st house,) but inconjunct by sign with it's ruler, as well as inconjunct by sign and house with the Sun. Okaaayyy...but, that would mean Sun and Moon can't "see" each other. As you asked above, "Do I feel 'in touch' with" my Pisces Moon? Um, yes, so "in touch" it's almost scary, lol. So, sun and moon not seeing each other also doesn't work for me. Buuuttt...

I randomly found this thread here on AW,
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=277161#post277161

with this post by dr. farr

There are a couple of other ways (beside Cazimi) a planet can be "conjunct" the Sun yet free from combustion:
1) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by latitude" as the oldtimers called it (Al-Biruni, etc): that is, when the Sun and the planet are within about 1 degree (to 1.5 degrees) of declination (both either North or South of the ecliptic) In this circumstance the planet and the Sun might well be quite distant in longidtude and not necessarily either combust nor even under the sunbeams...

2) when the planet and the Sun are "conjunct by nature", a type of conjunction fully recognized as such by the ancients (and even as late as the Renaissance period) in which the Sun and the planet each occupy the exact degree in equipollent signs: for example, say Sun is @ 20 Aries and Jupiter is @ 10 Pisces: they are "conjunct by nature" because each planet is exactly the same distance from the "Line of Truth" (the Aries/Libra line); the Sun and Jupiter in this example are in fact the same as being either longitudinally conjunct or conjunct in latitude (Parallel in Declination), but, of course, Jupiter is nowhere near combust or under the sunbeams.

These concepts go back a long time:
-conjunct in latitude to at least 400 AD
-equipollent conjunction (conjunct by nature) to even earlier Greco/Roman times

Parallel of Declination is applied, strangely enough, more in Modernist astrology than in Traditionalist practice...Conjunct by nature (equipollent conjunction) has been forgotten by almost all practitioners, except perhaps a few of the neo-Hellenistic school.

So, wow, that applies, within 1/2* degree, both planets (Sun and Moon) below the horizon. A look at the tables, and parallel declination also applies, again within 1/2*. Parallel lattitude, and declination, led me to the OP, which is..are Libra Sun and Pisces Moon conjunct in this chart?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
For me, the answer is that they are AS IF IN STRONG CONJUNCTION since they are in close Parallel; that means their influence would be as if Sun and Moon were conjunct, but WITHOUT the combustion that would otherwise have been involved IF they had been conjunct in longitude.

Further, I follow the doctrine that a P trumps a conjunction in longitude.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
For me, the answer is that they are AS IF IN STRONG CONJUNCTION since they are in close Parallel; that means their influence would be as if Sun and Moon were conjunct, but WITHOUT the combustion that would otherwise have been involved IF they had been conjunct in longitude.

Further, I follow the doctrine that a P trumps a conjunction in longitude.

Thank you, dr. farr. :smile:

Since they are conjunct, with the moon in both the terms (Ptolemaic and Egyptian) and face of Mars, in this chart exalted in Capricorn, would that provide any reception for the square between Sun in 1st and Mars in 4th?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
This I cannot answer, since I have little experience with analysis using terms (which I long ago abandoned in favor of the monomoiria) and the often convoluted issue of arcane reception concepts as developed in medieval astrology.
 

miquar

Well-known member
Hi JerryRR. Thanks for putting up that chart data.

Hi tsmall. I've been really glad of this thread and will look more closely at parallels and contraparallels in the future. Thank you.

As for whether, in Whole Sign houses a planet approaching the cusp of the next house is considered to be in that house (as is the case with other house systems) I do not know. It would make sense I suppose if the same rules applied to houses as signs in the Whole Sign system, since the sign and house cusps are so tightly bound together - i.e. it is where is is, and not in the house/sign it is nearly in.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
Thank you, dr. farr. :smile: Since they are conjunct, with the moon in both the terms (Ptolemaic and Egyptian) and face of Mars, in this chart exalted in Capricorn, would that provide any reception for the square between Sun in 1st and Mars in 4th?

Libra Sun conjunct Pisces Moon? Not exactly. A conjunction differs from a parallel and vice-versa and dr. farr has explained that your Sun and Moon are as if conjunct (therefore not conjunct by Sign) but instead, conjunct by nature

Studying you Sun, Moon and Mars we find:
1. Your Pisces Moon is in the Exaltation of Venus, the Domicile of Jupiter, the Terms of Saturn and in the Triplicity as well as Face of Mars
and
2. Your Libra Sun (in Fall) in the Domicile of Venus is in Saturn's Exaltation, the Triplicity as well as Terms of Saturn and the Face of the Moon,
and
3. Your Exalted Capricorn Mars in Saturn's Domicile, is in the Triplicity, Terms and Face of Venus,

clearly, Saturn is one of the links for some mixed receptions but has no dignity (Venus provides a link also, however we are focussing on Saturn at the moment, due to Mars Exalted nature)
4. Your Saturn is in the Domicile as well as the Triplicity of Venus, the Exaltation of the Moon and the Terms and Face of Mercury
So, although your Libra Sun is received by Saturn, Saturn has no dignity and is therefore Peregrine

Both Saturn and the Sun apparently have no dignity so both are Peregrine
(however tell me if you notice something to the contrary!) :smile:

When a planet is in its own terms it is recognized as being in a situation of temporary strength, even though it may not otherwise be suited to the sign it is in. For example, Saturn is in detriment in Leo, yet if it is in the first 6 degrees it is in its own terms so this overall condition of weakness is somewhat alleviated. Ezra referred to such a planet as "like a man in his seat". We could compare the situation to someone who rents or owns a holiday villa abroad. The country may be generally unfamiliar but there is a sense of security when surrounded by one's own possessions. Source: Deborah Houlding, Skyscript

here's a useful link to a previous discussion on the astrological definition of 'Peregrine' and 'Terms' http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30140&highlight=monomoiria
and here's a link to a Table of The Monomoria http://www.projecthindsight.com/images/TablesPDFs/Tb2-Monomoria.pdf source: Project Hindsight Robert Schmidt
Hi JerryRR. Thanks for putting up that chart data.
Hi tsmall. I've been really glad of this thread and will look more closely at parallels and contraparallels in the future. Thank you.
As for whether, in Whole Sign houses a planet approaching the cusp of the next house is considered to be in that house (as is the case with other house systems) I do not know. It would make sense I suppose if the same rules applied to houses as signs in the Whole Sign system, since the sign and house cusps are so tightly bound together - i.e. it is where is is, and not in the house/sign it is nearly in.

In Whole Sign houses a planet in a Sign is in that Sign and no other. So your Pisces Moon tsmall is unequivocally in 6th House using Whole Sign Houses - however, many thanks to dr farr who has previously posted on a different thread a great explanation of the original meaning of the word 'cusp'
Cusps: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts), but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point"; now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other. And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded! In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses-each house-that is the "cusp" of each house-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.
Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything, but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

source http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39669&page=3
 
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tsmall

Premium Member
Libra Sun conjunct Pisces Moon? Not exactly. A conjunction differs from a parallel and vice-versa and dr. farr has explained that your Sun and Moon are as if conjunct (therefore not conjunct by Sign) but instead, conjunct by nature

Studying you Sun, Moon and Mars we find:
1. Your Pisces Moon is in the Exaltation of Venus, the Domicile of Jupiter, the Terms of Saturn and in the Triplicity as well as Face of Mars
and
2. Your Libra Sun (in Fall) in the Domicile of Venus is in Saturn's Exaltation, the Triplicity as well as Terms of Saturn and the Face of the Moon,
and
3. Your Exalted Capricorn Mars in Saturn's Domicile, is in the Triplicity, Terms and Face of Venus,

clearly, Saturn is one of the links for some mixed receptions but has no dignity (Venus provides a link also, however we are focussing on Saturn at the moment, due to Mars Exalted nature)
4. Your Saturn is in the Domicile as well as the Triplicity of Venus, the Exaltation of the Moon and the Terms and Face of Mercury
So, although your Libra Sun is received by Saturn, Saturn has no dignity and is therefore Peregrine

Both Saturn and the Sun apparently have no dignity so both are Peregrine
(however tell me if you notice something to the contrary!) :smile:

When a planet is in its own terms it is recognized as being in a situation of temporary strength, even though it may not otherwise be suited to the sign it is in. For example, Saturn is in detriment in Leo, yet if it is in the first 6 degrees it is in its own terms so this overall condition of weakness is somewhat alleviated. Ezra referred to such a planet as "like a man in his seat". We could compare the situation to someone who rents or owns a holiday villa abroad. The country may be generally unfamiliar but there is a sense of security when surrounded by one's own possessions. Source: Deborah Houlding, Skyscript

here's a useful link to a previous discussion on the astrological definition of 'Peregrine' and 'Terms' http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30140&highlight=monomoiria

No, I don't notice anything to the contrary, and I also notice I made not one but two mistakes. :smile: Moon is in Saturn's terms according to Ptolomy (I think still Mars according to the Egyptian table,) as you pointed out, and Jupiter in Libra is not in detriment but rather debilitated...and I believe joining Sun, Moon and Saturn in being peregrine.

As you pointed out, Saturn receives the Sun. Saturn makes no aspect directly to the Sun, isn't dignified, and yet trines Mars in the domicile of Saturn. Would this have any effect on the Sun/Mars square? And still what role, if any, would the moon play in all of this, unless read as being conjunct the sun?
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
No, I don't notice anything to the contrary, and I also notice I made not one but two mistakes. :smile: Moon is in Saturn's terms according to Ptolomy (I think still Mars according to the Egyptian table,) as you pointed out, and Jupiter in Libra is not in detriment but rather debilitated...and I believe joining Sun, Moon and Saturn in being peregrine.

As you pointed out, Saturn receives the Sun. Saturn makes no aspect directly to the Sun, isn't dignified, and yet trines Mars in the domicile of Saturn. Would this have any effect on the Sun/Mars square? And still what role, if any, would the moon play in all of this, unless read as being conjunct the sun?

Saturn is a tenuous link between Sun and Mars because Saturn receives both planets.
Saturn, being located in the Exaltation of the Moon, is received by your Moon
Your Moon, being in the Terms of Saturn, is received by Saturn
Therefore there is mixed mutual reception between Moon and Saturn by Exaltation and Terms
Saturn and Moon are sextile by Sign when using Whole Sign houses

- check out the Table of Monomoiria for other potential connections between planets :smile:
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
Here again we find a different meaning for the word "cusp" (see my comments on this in the recent "Whole Sign or Placidus" thread) "Cusp" now meaning "border" between houses, whereas originally meaning the "point" (cuspis) of the house (sensitive point or sensitive degree of the house, which in whole sign could be anywhere in the house, depending upon what the ascending degree of the chart is)

But considering the borders of the signs/houses (whole sign means signs = houses), there is an ancient practice of considering a planet in the final degree of a sign/house to be treated for all delineative purposes "as if" it were in the next sign/house; I myself follow this when I find a planet at 29:50 or more of a particular sign/house.
 
Here again we find a different meaning for the word "cusp" (see my comments on this in the recent "Whole Sign or Placidus" thread) "Cusp" now meaning "border" between houses, whereas originally meaning the "point" (cuspis) of the house (sensitive point or sensitive degree of the house, which in whole sign could be anywhere in the house, depending upon what the ascending degree of the chart is)

But considering the borders of the signs/houses (whole sign means signs = houses), there is an ancient practice of considering a planet in the final degree of a sign/house to be treated for all delineative purposes "as if" it were in the next sign/house; I myself follow this when I find a planet at 29:50 or more of a particular sign/house.
I quite agree, there is plenty of evidence backing this up..

Planets conjunct a house cusp
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=202304&postcount=7
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=205033#post205033
Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”
http://www.astrology-numerology.com/inhouses.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14887
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125412&postcount=4
Ptolemy says the influence of the house begins to be felt 5° before the actual cusp.
http://www.astrologycom.com/houses.html

 

tsmall

Premium Member
Here again we find a different meaning for the word "cusp" (see my comments on this in the recent "Whole Sign or Placidus" thread) "Cusp" now meaning "border" between houses, whereas originally meaning the "point" (cuspis) of the house (sensitive point or sensitive degree of the house, which in whole sign could be anywhere in the house, depending upon what the ascending degree of the chart is)

But considering the borders of the signs/houses (whole sign means signs = houses), there is an ancient practice of considering a planet in the final degree of a sign/house to be treated for all delineative purposes "as if" it were in the next sign/house; I myself follow this when I find a planet at 29:50 or more of a particular sign/house.

That does make sense, thank you. I am curious about something else you have posted here, on this thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29126

In that this particular moon is at 27* Pisces, so not likely to be read in the next house. But based on your above linked post is actually in "pitted" degree? I am really trying to make sense of how to put this all together. It's a 6th house cadent moon, perigrine, in pitted degree, with a tenuous link to Saturn (as JUPITERASC has shown.) Further looking as suggested shows that the moon is in the decan of Mars (also already linked above,) and the monomoiria of Pisces. Going deeper, at 27*45' Pisces it is in the dwad of Aquarius, adding to the connection to Saturn? And so far none of this has helped with understanding how a parallel conjucntion should be interpreted.

Everything I have read only says "as if" in conjunction. Well, ok, I can read descriptions of sun conjunct moon, but that won't help understand how it would play out. Does it "fuse" the houses? Meaning that 1st and 6th become one in the same? Does it make sun/moon able to change places in the chart? If Sun is conjunct Mercury, Jupiter, and ASC, is the moon also conjunct those? Is the reception of each transferable? And lastly, wouldn't this parallel form in the charts of everyone born in the hours preceeding a lunar eclipse?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
I quite agree, there is plenty of evidence backing this up..

Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”
Ptolemy says the influence of the house begins to be felt 5° before the actual cusp.

Thanks, astrologer50, that is actually why I started looking at whole sign. :smile: In Placidus and Equal house Jupiter conjuncts my ASC/1st house "cusp" and because Jupiter conjuncts Mercury conjuncts Sun, it seemed it would pull those into the 1st house as well. My understanding is that 12th house is cadent, but planets in the same sign as the ASC cannot be cadent? As the cusp is in Libra, it just made more sense for all the planets in Libra to be in 1 and not 12. So the "cusps" or sensitive points of the houses are now in the middle of the house and not on the boarder.
 

JUPITERASC

Well-known member
And so far none of this has helped with understanding how a parallel conjucntion should be interpreted
A parallel is not the same as a conjunction
it is important to realise the difference between a parallel and a conjunction

A parallel is a measurement of declination as measured from the Equator
A conjunction by celestial latitude is measured from the Ecliptic


Definition of ecliptic
The apparent path of the Sun's motion on the celestial sphere as seen from Earth is called the ecliptic. The ecliptic plane is tilted 23.5° with respect to the plane of the celestial equator since the Earth's spin axis is tilted 23.5° with respect to its orbit around the sun. The ecliptic plane intersects the celestial equatorial plane along the line between the equinoxes.
source: http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/eclip.html

In traditional astrology, conjunction by celestial latitude (which occurs when two planets are in the same hemisphere and equally placed north or south of the ecliptic) is important; but it was not part of the antiscia technique and should not be confused with the modem 'parallels of declination' which are measured instead from the equator. To ancient astrologers the direction and latitude of a planet were very significant, used to reveal much about a planet's power and fortitude. The best planetary position is to be in the northern hemisphere, rising in latitude; the worst in the south, descending. This consideration is especially relevant to the Moon, who is most fortuitous when northern, rising, and at the same time increasing in light. (Source: Skyscript Deborah Houlding)
Everything I have read only says "as if" in conjunction.
That's because the planets in question are not in conjunction. The planets in question are in parallel. A planet in Libra cannot be conjunct a planet in Pisces. However, due to the nature of this particular opposition in your natal chart which occurs at the time of a full moon lunar eclipse, your Libra Sun and your Pisces Moon being parallel are described "as if conjunct" Not conjunct - but "as if conjunct" :smile:
If Sun is conjunct Mercury, Jupiter, and ASC, is the moon also conjunct those? Is the reception of each transferable?
1. Sun and Moon are not conjunct as explained they are "as if conjunct". Therefore your Moon is not conjunct Mercury, Jupiter or your ASC.

2. However your Libra planets Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and your ASC are all in the Exaltation of Saturn and your Pisces Moon is in the Terms of Saturn - if you check in which Terms your Mercury, Jupiter and ASC are located then you can discover any reception or lack of it. You have said you are already considering the influence of the Monomoiria. :smile:

And lastly, wouldn't this parallel form in the charts of everyone born in the hours preceeding a lunar eclipse?

For an Eclipse to happen at all, the Sun, Earth, and Moon must be aligned, not only in Celestial Longitude, but also in Celestial Latitude (and therefore, in Declination). However, while this alignment in Celestial Longitude happens every 29.53 days, the alignment in Celestial Latitude can only happen near one of the Nodes, or the Nodal Axis. So, an Eclipse requires that there be either a New Moon (Solar Eclipse), or a Full Moon (Lunar Eclipse), near one of the Nodes. The limits upon Eclipses are called Major and Minor Ecliptic Limits.
Major Ecliptic Limit: A Lunar Eclipse MAY occur if there is a Full Moon within 11° 38' (Celestial Longitude), of a Node, and a Solar Eclipse MAY occur if there is a New Moon within 17° 25' of a Node.
Minor Ecliptic Limit: A Lunar Eclipse MUST occur if there is a Full Moon within 9° 39' (Celestial Longitude), of a Node, and a Solar Eclipse MUST occur if there is a New Moon within 15° 23' of a Node.
If a New or Full Moon occurs within 5° of a Node, the Eclipse will be Total or Annular.
Additionally:
For a Lunar Eclipse to occur, the Moon's Celestial Latitude at Full Moon cannot exceed about 55', and for that Lunar Eclipse to be Total, Celestial Latitude cannot exceed 26'.

For a Solar Eclipse to occur, the Moon's Celestial Latitude cannot exceed 1° 27', and must be less than 58' for the Solar Eclipse to be Total or Annular.

here's a link to eclipse data for beginners :smile:
http://www.mreclipse.com/Special/LEprimer.html

Thanks, astrologer50, that is actually why I started looking at whole sign. :smile: In Placidus and Equal house Jupiter conjuncts my ASC/1st house "cusp" and because Jupiter conjuncts Mercury conjuncts Sun, it seemed it would pull those into the 1st house as well. My understanding is that 12th house is cadent, but planets in the same sign as the ASC cannot be cadent? As the cusp is in Libra, it just made more sense for all the planets in Libra to be in 1 and not 12. So the "cusps" or sensitive points of the houses are now in the middle of the house and not on the boarder.
Planets in the same sign as the ASC when using Whole Sign Houses are not Cadent. The Strongest House position for a planet is either 1st, 4th, 7th or 10th House

Also, as you have said and as dr. farr very usefully explained earlier, the "cusps" or sensitive points of the houses are now in the middle of the house and not on the border. The cusps of course may appear anywhere in a Sign as they are based on the degree of the ASC :smile:
 
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dr. farr

Well-known member
TS:
With the Moon in a pitted degree, if one accepts the ancient doctrine related to pits and peaks (elevated degrees), then it means that the Moon is largely blocked-inhibited-from exerting its potential influences, and that the Moon is largely rendered "neutral" in the chart-this is basically what a pitted degree means, it blocks and neutralizes a planet as an element of the chart, and thus other considerations relative to that planet are rendered largely superfluous. Rather an extreme doctrine, and in later times it was toned down to indicate rather "some degree of inhibition for good or for ill", and became a rather minor consideration in delineating a planet in a chart; however, I have reverted to the original, more intense implication of a pitted degree, and, for me as for the ancients, it indicates blockage and neutralization of the planet's influence in the chart, to a very significant degree.
 

tsmall

Premium Member
A parallel is not the same as a conjunction
it is important to realise the difference between a parallel and a conjunction
A parallel is a measurement of declination as measured from the Equator
A conjunction by celestial latitude is measured from the Ecliptic

In traditional astrology, conjunction by celestial latitude (which occurs when two planets are in the same hemisphere and equally placed north or south of the ecliptic) is important; but it was not part of the antiscia technique and should not be confused with the modem 'parallels of declination' which are measured instead from the equator. To ancient astrologers the direction and latitude of a planet were very significant, used to reveal much about a planet's power and fortitude. The best planetary position is to be in the northern hemisphere, rising in latitude; the worst in the south, descending. This consideration is especially relevant to the Moon, who is most fortuitous when northern, rising, and at the same time increasing in light. (Source: Skyscript Deborah Houlding)

That's because the planets in question are not in conjunction. The planets in question are in parallel. A planet in Libra cannot be conjunct a planet in Pisces. However, due to the nature of this particular opposition in your natal chart which occurs at the time of a full moon lunar eclipse, your Libra Sun and your Pisces Moon being parallel are described "as if conjunct" Not conjunct - but "as if conjunct" :smile:

1. Sun and Moon are not conjunct as explained they are "as if conjunct". Therefore your Moon is not conjunct Mercury, Jupiter or your ASC.

2. However your Libra planets Sun, Mercury, Jupiter and your ASC are all in the Exaltation of Saturn and your Pisces Moon is in the Terms of Saturn - if you check in which Terms your Mercury, Jupiter and ASC are located then you can discover any reception or lack of it. You have said you are already considering the influence of the Monomoiria. :smile:

Yes, considering the influence of the Monomoiria, and anything else suggested. :smile: But, and again, please correct me if I am wrong, reception really only applies if planets are in aspect, and the only whole sign aspect determined for this sun and moon is inconjunct by sign? So we are looking at a sun and moon, parallel in declination. You mention that conjunct in lattitude means lattitude as measured from the ecliptic. Now, does that mean that when using the tables on astro.com, the lattitude given is from the equator, and not the ecliptic? If so, how would one find the lattitude from the ecliptic? The lattitude as described on astro.com says that the sun (of course) is at 0*0'0", and the moon is 0*36'36". Conjunct by lattitude?

In addition, as colored above, you mentioned the antiscia (I really thought delineating my planets would be a great place to start. :sad:) I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly what this means or how it would apply, but the same article quoted from Skyscript states:

Firmicus writes of antiscia:


In this way Gemini and Cancer send each other antiscia. For a degree, from whatever degree it receives an antiscion, sends an antiscion to that degree. Thus Taurus and Leo send an antiscion against each other, thus Virgo and Aries, Libra and Pisces, Scorpio and Aquarius, Sagittarius and Capricorn.[11]

Firmicus goes on to suggest that where planets are not in aspect with each other, we should consider whether they are connected through the relationship of the antiscia:


For when they send an antiscion in such a way that they are in aspect through the antiscion, in trine, square, sextile, or opposition, they portend just as if they were thus located in the normal arrangement.

Source: http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html (mods, pls forgive a few words over the limit?)

The signs in which the antiscia are reflected, or mirrored are:

Capricorn/Sagittarius
Aquarius/Virgo
Pisces/Libra
Aries/Virgo
Taurus/Leo
Gemini/Cancer

So, 2*14'37" Libra sun and 27*45'44" Pisces moon is less than 21" from exact antiscion?

they are in aspect through the antiscion, in trine, square, sextile, or opposition, they portend just as if they were thus located in the normal arrangement...

Meaning that in fact moon is as if square Mars? And how else would this affect the chart?
 

tsmall

Premium Member
TS:
With the Moon in a pitted degree, if one accepts the ancient doctrine related to pits and peaks (elevated degrees), then it means that the Moon is largely blocked-inhibited-from exerting its potential influences, and that the Moon is largely rendered "neutral" in the chart-this is basically what a pitted degree means, it blocks and neutralizes a planet as an element of the chart, and thus other considerations relative to that planet are rendered largely superfluous. Rather an extreme doctrine, and in later times it was toned down to indicate rather "some degree of inhibition for good or for ill", and became a rather minor consideration in delineating a planet in a chart; however, I have reverted to the original, more intense implication of a pitted degree, and, for me as for the ancients, it indicates blockage and neutralization of the planet's influence in the chart, to a very significant degree.

This I could very well accept as true, except that this particular moon's influence colors every aspect of my life. In the 6th, I have felt it's influence in every job I have had, from cleaning bathrooms to selling complex networking systems. Empathy beyond what would be considred normal. Guilt whenever I even consider putting my needs above those of others. So, am I completely missing something? (At two months, it would be highly unsual if I had anything right...)
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
This I could very well accept as true, except that this particular moon's influence colors every aspect of my life. In the 6th, I have felt it's influence in every job I have had, from cleaning bathrooms to selling complex networking systems. Empathy beyond what would be considred normal. Guilt whenever I even consider putting my needs above those of others. So, am I completely missing something? (At two months, it would be highly unsual if I had anything right...)


With your personal experiences, coupled with the concept of the Moon itself being pitted, I would attribute the Lunar-like influences to the Dragon's Head, the North Node of the Moon, in that 6th house, under Pisces; check the NN's declinations (and latitude), see if there are any P's with the Sun or other planets, and we'll take it from there...
 
With your personal experiences, coupled with the concept of the Moon itself being pitted, I would attribute the Lunar-like influences to the Dragon's Head, the North Node of the Moon, in that 6th house, under Pisces; check the NN's declinations (and latitude), see if there are any P's with the Sun or other planets, and we'll take it from there...
if you want to do further research
pitted degrees
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29126
http://astrologynotes.org/wiki/Pitted_degrees
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/deginf1.html


But, and again, please correct me if I am wrong, reception really only applies if planets are in aspect, and the only whole sign aspect determined for this sun and moon is inconjunct by sign? So we are looking at a sun and moon, parallel in declination.
they are stronger if in aspect and weaker if not, but still applicable....

mutual reception
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_reception
detriment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detriment_(astrology)
http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/understanding-the-three-debilities-of-detriment-fall-and-being-perigrine/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_dignity
http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/understanding-the-three-debilities-of-detriment-fall-and-being-perigrine/

Exaltation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exaltation_(astrology)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_(astrology)

In addition, as colored above, you mentioned the antiscia (I really thought delineating my planets would be a great place to start. :sad:) I'm not going to pretend to understand exactly what this means or how it would apply, but the same article quoted from Skyscript states:
It seems more you dig and research the more you are getting confused as Traditional astrology is far more complex with terms, faces etc than Modern. Why not try just simplying things with modern astrologer and then later go down that road?
 
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Thanks, astrologer50, that is actually why I started looking at whole sign. :smile: In Placidus and Equal house Jupiter conjuncts my ASC/1st house "cusp" and because Jupiter conjuncts Mercury conjuncts Sun, it seemed it would pull those into the 1st house as well. My understanding is that 12th house is cadent, but planets in the same sign as the ASC cannot be cadent? As the cusp is in Libra, it just made more sense for all the planets in Libra to be in 1 and not 12. So the "cusps" or sensitive points of the houses are now in the middle of the house and not on the boarder.

don't know where you got that information but it's incorrect.
The 12th dissolves planetory energies and can be cadent. If their in,it's their in. If within 5' of cusp (providng TOB is correct and tested with transits) then it has more effect in next house along going anti clockwise...

terminology like Monomoiria, pitted degree, terms faces are ALL Trad astrology terms and Modern don't use them, although i do look at fall, detriment, domicile. Modern is soooo much more simple, but hey if you want complex hard to understand in depth complex matters, go for it. I suppose if you have strong scorpio or virgo traits and enjoy digging and research you may enjoy this type of research....

With your personal experiences, coupled with the concept of the Moon itself being pitted, I would attribute the Lunar-like influences to the Dragon's Head, the North Node of the Moon, in that 6th house, under Pisces; check the NN's declinations (and latitude), see if there are any P's with the Sun or other planets, and we'll take it from there...

if you want to research your Node try here. Just remember it's not usually til mid life that we even start reaching for Life Lessons/North Node..

North node
http://www.cafeastrology.com/northnodesouthnode.html
http://www.astrologycom.com/nodes.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/astrology-articles/north-node-karma.php

http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/search/label/North%20Node%20and%20the%20Quest%20for%20the%20Authentic%20Self
http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/search/label/North%20Node%20in%20Taurus
http://northnodeastrology.blogspot.com/search/label/South%20Node%20Seventh%20House
http://www.north-node.com/astrology-tutorials/nodes
 
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JUPITERASC

Well-known member
To clarify then:
..are Libra Sun and Pisces Moon conjunct in this chart?
to which dr farr responded
For me, the answer is that they are AS IF IN STRONG CONJUNCTION since they are in close Parallel; that means their influence would be as if Sun and Moon were conjunct, but WITHOUT the combustion that would otherwise have been involved IF they had been conjunct in longitude.Further, I follow the doctrine that a P trumps a conjunction in longitude.
to which you responded
Thank you, dr. farr. :smile: Since they are conjunct, with the moon in both the terms (Ptolemaic and Egyptian) and face of Mars, in this chart exalted in Capricorn, would that provide any reception for the square between Sun in 1st and Mars in 4th?
to which dr farr responded to your question regarding reception thus
This I cannot answer, since I have little experience with analysis using terms (which I long ago abandoned in favor of the monomoiria) and the often convoluted issue of arcane reception concepts as developed in medieval astrology.
dr farr's has not clarified exactly what is meant by 'as if conjunct' - however at this stage it is clear that you are assuming that 'as if conjunct' is the same in meaning as 'conjunct' - but there is a difference.

Regarding your interest in delineating reception: Yes, mutual reception only applies when the planets in question are in aspect and yes your Sun and Moon are not in aspect by Whole Sign.

Planets that are in aspect as well as one-way reception (that means not mutual reception) are:
Mars receives your Moon because Moon is in the terms of Mars and Mars is sextile your moon
Saturn receives your Moon because your Moon is in the terms of Saturn and sextile Saturn
(retrospective correction and thanks for drawing my attention to this tsmall!
(1) Saturn in fact receives Mars because Mars is in Saturn's Domicile
and
(2) Mars is Exalted in the Saturn's Domicile
(3) Libra is Saturn's Exaltation)


Planets in aspect but with no reception:
Mars is in square aspect to your Sun but there is no reception

Inconjunct planets in one-way reception
Saturn receives your Sun which is in Saturn's Exaltation, Triplicity and terms but Saturn is inconjunct Sun

There is no conjunction between you Libra Sun and Pisces Moon and judging by your later comments, it seems that you have realised that.

However, it seems clear to me that you seek a way to understand and synthesise your opposing Sun and Moon energies and furthermore it seems to me that dr. farr's comments regarding planets in parallel being 'as if conjunct' appear to offer you a way towards some kind of Sun/Moon synthesis in your chart and that is the reason that you are asking how the parallel could be interpreted. Have I understood your questions correctly?

I understood what dr. farr is saying when he says 'as if conjunct' but it is clear that you need more guidance on the subject therefore I think it best to clarify the 'as if conjunct' meaning with dr. farr particularly since he has said and I quote
With your personal experiences, coupled with the concept of the Moon itself being pitted, I would attribute the Lunar-like influences to the Dragon's Head, the North Node of the Moon, in that 6th house, under Pisces; check the NN's declinations (and latitude), see if there are any P's with the Sun or other planets, and we'll take it from there...
you also said
Everything I have read only says "as if" in conjunction. Well, ok, I can read descriptions of sun conjunct moon, but that won't help understand how it would play out. Does it "fuse" the houses? Meaning that 1st and 6th become one in the same? Does it make sun/moon able to change places in the chart? If Sun is conjunct Mercury, Jupiter, and ASC, is the moon also conjunct those? Is the reception of each transferable? And lastly, wouldn't this parallel form in the charts of everyone born in the hours preceeding a lunar eclipse?
dr farr mentioned
TS:
With the Moon in a pitted degree, if one accepts the ancient doctrine related to pits and peaks (elevated degrees), then it means that the Moon is largely blocked-inhibited-from exerting its potential influences, and that the Moon is largely rendered "neutral" in the chart-this is basically what a pitted degree means, it blocks and neutralizes a planet as an element of the chart, and thus other considerations relative to that planet are rendered largely superfluous. Rather an extreme doctrine, and in later times it was toned down to indicate rather "some degree of inhibition for good or for ill", and became a rather minor consideration in delineating a planet in a chart; however, I have reverted to the original, more intense implication of a pitted degree, and, for me as for the ancients, it indicates blockage and neutralization of the planet's influence in the chart, to a very significant degree.
but you replied
This I could very well accept as true, except that this particular moon's influence colors every aspect of my life. In the 6th, I have felt it's influence in every job I have had, from cleaning bathrooms to selling complex networking systems. Empathy beyond what would be considred normal. Guilt whenever I even consider putting my needs above those of others. So, am I completely missing something? (At two months, it would be highly unsual if I had anything right...)
and dr farr advised you thus:
With your personal experiences, coupled with the concept of the Moon itself being pitted, I would attribute the Lunar-like influences to the Dragon's Head, the North Node of the Moon, in that 6th house, under Pisces; check the NN's declinations (and latitude), see if there are any P's with the Sun or other planets, and we'll take it from there...
Planets conj House cusp
“Ascendant at 15’ Libra and Jupiter 13’ Libra. That would place Jupiter in the 12th house, right? But many thoughtful astrologers would read this as Jupiter being conjunction with Ascendant, and end up reading it as bringing its action to bear in the first house, rather than in the 12th.
This same idea would apply for each and every house cusp. If the planet is IN THE SAME SIGN as the sign on the next house cusp, and close enough to be CONJUNCT WITH that next house cusp, the action of the planet will be directed into oncoming house”
you replied
Thanks, astrologer50, that is actually why I started looking at whole sign. :smile: In Placidus and Equal house Jupiter conjuncts my ASC/1st house "cusp" and because Jupiter conjuncts Mercury conjuncts Sun, it seemed it would pull those into the 1st house as well. My understanding is that 12th house is cadent, but planets in the same sign as the ASC cannot be cadent? As the cusp is in Libra, it just made more sense for all the planets in Libra to be in 1 and not 12. So the "cusps" or sensitive points of the houses are now in the middle of the house and not on the boarder.
You are correct in saying that for Traditional Astrologers using Whole Sign Houses, the 12th House is a Cadent Sign (the other Cadent Signs are: 3rd, 6th, and 9th houses. ) As you have realised, when using Whole Sign, your Libra planets are all strong 1st House planets and your Libra Ascendant is in the first Whole Sign House. Your Virgo Venus therefore in Whole Signs is Cadent in the 12th as is your Pisces Moon in 6th Whole Sign house.

Your Sun and Moon are Inconjunct as are your Sun and Saturn

The planets and points involved in a Inconjuncts don't understand each other. It's difficult to see common ground between the signs. Inconjuncts are: redirecting, challenging, requiring adjustments, diverting. Difficult to merge the energies of the planets involved: the two cannot be merged so compartmentalization comes into play. The areas of life described by the planets conflict with each other—not in as overt a way as is commonly seen with a square or opposition, but the individual separates them either consciously or unconsciously. This is why adjustment is associated with the inconjunct—both planets/points represent distinct needs and areas of life, and it can take a lot of energy to sort them into different compartments! Source: cafeastrology
....Modern is soooo much more simple, but hey if you want complex hard to understand in depth complex matters, go for it. I suppose if you have strong scorpio or virgo traits and enjoy digging and research you may enjoy this type of research....
That is an interesting comment - Tropically you have Venus in Virgo - however, on another thread http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?p=314544#post314544 'beginner' has had some success with rationalising his own chart as soon as he began using the Sidereal Zodiac! I say that because when using the Sidereal Zodiac your Libra Sun morphs into a Virgo Sun in opposition by Sign with a Pisces Moon. Your sidereal Mercury and Jupiter are in Virgo: sidereal Venus is in Leo: your sidereal Mars is in Sagittarius: sidereal Saturn is in Aries which alters your Earthy grand trine into a Fiery grand trine) Perhaps these Sign placements are more resonant with your understanding of yourself? Or perhaps not? Just an idea. Intriguing. :smile:
 
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