I took a serial killer chart off WIKI and did only the U.S born killers and did the first 40 killers and 35 of them had at least one hard mars aspect, and out of those 35 quite a few had 2 or more hard aspects.
For serious astrologers, or people who really understand Hard Mars Aspects
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I took a serial killer chart off WIKI and did only the U.S born killers and did the first 40 killers and 35 of them had at least one hard mars aspect, and out of those 35 quite a few had 2 or more hard aspects.
Therese
Well-known member
I still don't agree with a statistical approach to astrology.
Read the biography of Gandhi, for example, and you will find that he would have had plenty of opportunities to turn violent. He lived through two world wars... There are different ways to "fight", some "fight" for what they believe in, some fight to help others, and so on. Check out the chart of Martin Luther King. Mars square Moon and Mars opposite Saturn. Albert Schweitzer's Mars is square both Uranus and Saturn. And so on.
So, your hypothesis is that a person with hard Mars aspects is more prone to violence than a person who is not. If you only gather the data of serial killers, of course you will prove your theory correct. The same way as if you had a hypothesis that red flowers attract more fleas than others, and, to check it out, you go to a field where you know there are a lot of red flowers. You will be checking the red flowers, the majority of them will have a lot of fleas, then you will check a few flowers in other colors, some of them will have the same amount of fleas, others will have less. But, as it is a field where the red flowers are in majority, you will have much more data on red flowers than on any other colour, so you will find that red flowers indeed attract more fleas. But your resarch hasn't been objective.
Even if you want to exclude any other ways a hard aspect from Mars can manifest and consider only violence, there's still the option that it will be committed against that person and not by them. Have you also checked the charts of victims of violence / murder victims? Perhaps you should.
Sharon Tate had a Mars-Neptune square (while Charles Manson's Mars, for example, has no hard aspects), Helene Althusser's Mars is squared by both Neptune and Uranus, while her husband's (her killer) Mars had no hard aspects. and so on.
Read the biography of Gandhi, for example, and you will find that he would have had plenty of opportunities to turn violent. He lived through two world wars... There are different ways to "fight", some "fight" for what they believe in, some fight to help others, and so on. Check out the chart of Martin Luther King. Mars square Moon and Mars opposite Saturn. Albert Schweitzer's Mars is square both Uranus and Saturn. And so on.
So, your hypothesis is that a person with hard Mars aspects is more prone to violence than a person who is not. If you only gather the data of serial killers, of course you will prove your theory correct. The same way as if you had a hypothesis that red flowers attract more fleas than others, and, to check it out, you go to a field where you know there are a lot of red flowers. You will be checking the red flowers, the majority of them will have a lot of fleas, then you will check a few flowers in other colors, some of them will have the same amount of fleas, others will have less. But, as it is a field where the red flowers are in majority, you will have much more data on red flowers than on any other colour, so you will find that red flowers indeed attract more fleas. But your resarch hasn't been objective.
Even if you want to exclude any other ways a hard aspect from Mars can manifest and consider only violence, there's still the option that it will be committed against that person and not by them. Have you also checked the charts of victims of violence / murder victims? Perhaps you should.
Sharon Tate had a Mars-Neptune square (while Charles Manson's Mars, for example, has no hard aspects), Helene Althusser's Mars is squared by both Neptune and Uranus, while her husband's (her killer) Mars had no hard aspects. and so on.
No, your right and this is what I said to that statement someone else made earlier about only using people who were known for violence.....
" Agreed......to a certain extent.
I used killers, people known for violence and out of 40, 35 had hard mars aspects, that's an extremely high number, for picking random killers.
Now if we mix killers, with average joes, then yes the number drops tremendously, as there are millions of people born with hard mars aspects and don't use violence,however how many of these people HAVE to use violence? Just because one has never been violent, doesn't mean they can't get violent, they just never been given a reason to.
I do you one better, I went back to my Middleschool and HS days and did charts on people who constantly were fighting all the time, and one's who were in prison now for violent acts, and a high number of them had hard mars aspects.
I also did charts on the ones, who when confronted or pushed never pushed back or fought back and they had no serious mars issues, and some had no aspects to mars, now I know no aspects to mars can make one extremely aggressive or extremely passive, all of them were the latter.
So it wasn't just one study I did, I've done a few, one thing I can bet is put a person with an afflicted mars back up against the one, I guarantee they will lash out, I'm going by real life experiences and people who were known killers.
There's something to people with hard mars aspects.""
Vista
Well-known member
Mars in hard aspect to Moon, Uranus or Pluto point to people who are prone to anger and being cruel, aggression, payback, and violence as the worse case scenario. Mars in hard aspect to Saturn, I haven't experienced this as a violent aspect necessarily, typically there is a lot of frustration in their lives. They can also be very hard workers. But I can see the potential to be sort of a ticking time bomb with two planets that don't like each other and completely opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of how they operate. When people work with this aggressive energy in a positive way, i.e. Martin Luther King, Ghandi, and many professional athletes, much of can be mitigated through channeling it in positive ways. Hard aspects have the same potential as easy aspects, you just have to work harder to make it happen.
Blaze
Account Closed
I agree 100%. I have an afflicted Mars in Aries located in my 12th house. It Squares Saturn, Neptune, Chrion, Jupiter and my MC (Afflicted term only applies to the Saturn and Neptune Square, yes?). Even with those aspects, I'm not violent at all, Just irritable at times.
Bunraku
Well-known member
Have you looked at the occurrence of hard Mars aspects among the general population? It is deviation from this norm that brings statistical significance.
Mars beholds some form of aspect in probably 95% of all charts. It is a rare thing to see an unaspected Mars. I would consider any planet in conjunction with Mars to be afflicted (in most cases). So we will call the conjunction a hard aspect. The conjunction's opposite, the opposition, has one occurrence in a chart, as does the conjunction. There are two possible squares, for a total of four possible hard aspects. There are two sextiles and two trines for a total of four flowing aspects. So there is a fifty-fifty chance that any aspect to Mars will be of the hard variety.
Mars seldom beholds just one aspect in a chart. Each added aspect brings the same 50-50 chance of being hard. It's a pretty good bet that a wide and random selection of charts for any time and place will yield a hefty chunk of hard aspects to Mars.
I don't think I'll be telling the next client to walk in the door with a hard Mars aspect that "You are a potential serial killer."
In astrology we are working with symbols capable of universal application, not with bits of data. The simplistic approach of assigning a fixed meaning to some planetary position just doesn't hold up. It is necessary not only to "read the whole chart", but to assess the significance of the chart as well. In most if not all cases a serial killer emerges from the ranks of the psychopath. Does the chart show a strongly psychopathic personality? If the psychopathic personality is not indicated by an accumulation of symptomatic markers, then Mars with hard aspects is unlikely to produce anything more than issues with anger (or other Martail attributes).
Mars beholds some form of aspect in probably 95% of all charts. It is a rare thing to see an unaspected Mars. I would consider any planet in conjunction with Mars to be afflicted (in most cases). So we will call the conjunction a hard aspect. The conjunction's opposite, the opposition, has one occurrence in a chart, as does the conjunction. There are two possible squares, for a total of four possible hard aspects. There are two sextiles and two trines for a total of four flowing aspects. So there is a fifty-fifty chance that any aspect to Mars will be of the hard variety.
Mars seldom beholds just one aspect in a chart. Each added aspect brings the same 50-50 chance of being hard. It's a pretty good bet that a wide and random selection of charts for any time and place will yield a hefty chunk of hard aspects to Mars.
I don't think I'll be telling the next client to walk in the door with a hard Mars aspect that "You are a potential serial killer."
In astrology we are working with symbols capable of universal application, not with bits of data. The simplistic approach of assigning a fixed meaning to some planetary position just doesn't hold up. It is necessary not only to "read the whole chart", but to assess the significance of the chart as well. In most if not all cases a serial killer emerges from the ranks of the psychopath. Does the chart show a strongly psychopathic personality? If the psychopathic personality is not indicated by an accumulation of symptomatic markers, then Mars with hard aspects is unlikely to produce anything more than issues with anger (or other Martail attributes).
dhundhun
Well-known member
Characteristic plays important role, which is expressed in several forms such as genetics. No matter what Mars and other planets do, a deer is not going to kill a lion.
A lion even has best aspected Mars aspect will be killer.
In few astrological treaties, importance has been given to consider the characteristic of individual, no matter what happens that does not change.
A lion even has best aspected Mars aspect will be killer.
In few astrological treaties, importance has been given to consider the characteristic of individual, no matter what happens that does not change.
Inline
Well-known member
I find it interesting that todays current genetic researchers use the terms 'genetic horoscopes' (your DNA) and 'genetic astrology' (your ancestors DNA) for their research when discussing whether-or-not 'it is all in the genes'?
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n7/full/ejhg2008246a.html
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So do you agree that astrologers who "TRY" to predict one's death by looking at a chart are extremely foolish?
No.
What does that question have to do with hard Mars aspects and serial killers?
Charles Manson has a Mars-Neptune conjunction. I consider that to be a hard aspect. Bill
Clinton has one too.
It is interesting that such a large percentage of serial killers have a hard Mars aspect.
But frankly, I think you are making Much Ado About Nothing, stirring up a hurricane in a teaspoon.
Mars has been associated with war, violence, force, compulsion, killing, blood, piercing instruments, high passions, brigands.......ever since the Beginning of Time.
I have a very strongly afficted Mars. He is at the focus of a massive T-square, squaring Sun and Pluto. He is conjunct Saturn. He is in his detriment. I step over ants and beetles in my path, not wanting to harm an innocent creature. Can I be cold, cruel, deadly? Sure, the potential is there. After all, I belong to the most violent, bloodthirsty, savage species to have ever walked the face of the Earth.
Some hard aspects to Mars produce excellent blacksmiths...or engineers, butchers, surgeons.... These people need the "force, violence, cutting nature" of Mars to perform their functions in life.
The same aspect present in a matrix (chart) inclined toward murder and mayhem may act that way. But only -- ONLY -- if that chart -- AS A WHOLE -- points in that direction. The hard Mars aspects you see in a high percentage of charts belonging to serial killers is only one factor that must be present to produce such a monster. It is only one of a combination of factors that must be present.
I saw in one of the replies in this thread that "Mercury will control Mars by thought...." But what if Mercury is distressed, distorted, etc.? This is the same kind of simplistic thinking as assigning serial killers to hard Mars aspects...
If we are to become competent astrologers, we must learn to read the chart as a whole.
What does that question have to do with hard Mars aspects and serial killers?
Charles Manson has a Mars-Neptune conjunction. I consider that to be a hard aspect. Bill
Clinton has one too.
It is interesting that such a large percentage of serial killers have a hard Mars aspect.
But frankly, I think you are making Much Ado About Nothing, stirring up a hurricane in a teaspoon.
Mars has been associated with war, violence, force, compulsion, killing, blood, piercing instruments, high passions, brigands.......ever since the Beginning of Time.
I have a very strongly afficted Mars. He is at the focus of a massive T-square, squaring Sun and Pluto. He is conjunct Saturn. He is in his detriment. I step over ants and beetles in my path, not wanting to harm an innocent creature. Can I be cold, cruel, deadly? Sure, the potential is there. After all, I belong to the most violent, bloodthirsty, savage species to have ever walked the face of the Earth.
Some hard aspects to Mars produce excellent blacksmiths...or engineers, butchers, surgeons.... These people need the "force, violence, cutting nature" of Mars to perform their functions in life.
The same aspect present in a matrix (chart) inclined toward murder and mayhem may act that way. But only -- ONLY -- if that chart -- AS A WHOLE -- points in that direction. The hard Mars aspects you see in a high percentage of charts belonging to serial killers is only one factor that must be present to produce such a monster. It is only one of a combination of factors that must be present.
I saw in one of the replies in this thread that "Mercury will control Mars by thought...." But what if Mercury is distressed, distorted, etc.? This is the same kind of simplistic thinking as assigning serial killers to hard Mars aspects...
If we are to become competent astrologers, we must learn to read the chart as a whole.
HoldOrFold
Well-known member
Usually you'd read that as conjunct the 2nd and 6th house cusps
astralrabbit
Account Closed
Where does a psychopath's journeys begin? With the first step they take at 10 months to 18 months (mars motivated)? Possibly the experience with such behavior is formulated in the mind relating to the first experience of one's home environment. What if Mars were trine to Jupiter venus and the moon (all good aspects right), but it made it easier for one to enjoy such a deviant action, or actually provided them with the luck of maintaining the stealth needed to commit such a dark act. The houses that deal with the conscious and sub-conscious thought as well as the houses that represent ones parental lineage and the planets that rule those houses could possibly give a better starting point for analysis when it comes to those who commit willful murder or pre-meditated murder. After all there is justification in each person's sub-conscious as to why they act the way they do. Thank you for asking this question and starting this thread.
thelivingsky
Well-known member
I have kept a file of people who have committed murder in a premeditated way. I also see hard aspects of Mars to Uranus or Pluto. But I also see a pattern of Pluto and/or the Black Moon falling in conjunction or on the nodal axis (see Ted Bundy, Charles Manson, Eric Harris, Michelle Bica, (woman here in Ohio who murdered a pregnant woman and performed Ceasarean to get the infant for her own. DOB Feb, 31 1961) Also, Orcus shows up often on the nodes or with Pluto or the Black Moon.
But the problem with his type of analysis is that for everyone of these killers there are very likely many people who were born on the same day at the same time who did not commit these types of heinous crimes.
I also would like to see the list of the killers whose charts you sampled.
But the problem with his type of analysis is that for everyone of these killers there are very likely many people who were born on the same day at the same time who did not commit these types of heinous crimes.
I also would like to see the list of the killers whose charts you sampled.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Personally, I think it's misleading to isolate a few aspects and attribute criminal behavior to them, especially when Mars makes hard aspects in most people's charts. It may be that these are common aspects for killers, but they are common aspects in the population--for people who are well adjusted, law abiding citizens. In my own, Mars makes hard aspects with the moon (tight conjunction), Pluto (tight square), Uranus (square), and Jupiter (square). According to some of you, I should be a serial killer, instead of being a full time volunteer/activist. But look beyond those aspects. My Mars is retrograde, so instead of the violent, stormy reactions one expects, my Mars is so tightly reined in, it can't even act without seriously contemplating the next move, confrontation, etc. And these planets it makes hard aspects to are all also retrograde. Of course, the moon is not retrograde--it cannot be--but it is OOB. So looking at aspects, everything one would expect with a tight moon/Mars conjunction or the emotional mess of moon/Mars square Pluto is false. The aspects are still there, they just behave differently than the textbook descriptions for them because the planets themselves are behaving differently. And all of these planets make other aspects as well, so there are many more influences at play. Unless you look at the whole chart, you can't see how Mars will manifest.
IleneK
Premium Member
The way you are interpreting this statistic is incomplete and I think your deduction from it may not be valid.
While a large percentage of killers may have hard Mars aspects, that same percentage may exist in the balance of population, the non-killers, that is. You really can't tell much from the single statistic you cite.