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Fixed stars, asteroids and other cosmic objects For astrology talks on fixed stars, Chiron, Sedna, Eris or any other newly discovered or little known cosmic object.


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  #51  
Unread 03-22-2014, 05:03 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Because it is difficult to develop a cookbook for each and every aspect involving so-called minor points in your horoscope, it is best if you develop an understanding of how Chiron and Lilith operate in your chart, in terms of (a) what they represent, (b) their signs and houses, and (c) any aspects they make to planets or chart angles. The 11th is your house of friends, as well as hopes and wishes for the future. With Chiron there, possibly one of these 11th house meanings is important for you. Transiting Lilith may stir the pot.

Whether a transit goes smoothly or with difficulty depends not only on the nature of the heavenly bodies or points involved, but also the degree to which you have gained some mastery over what they represent.

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  #52  
Unread 03-22-2014, 05:33 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Yes, Waybread, no cookbook, that's okay. But even when I reflected on this, there is no real conclusion because it is so difficult to interprete your own chart, you know it.
The natal chart aspects between Lilith and Chiron are fine (sextile), but the square from Chiron to Uranus (8th), and Lilith transitting next on Chiron, so some surprises are expected, suddenly (from Uranus), and with deep changes (the 8th, house of dead) - but what could it be? What can you master about Lilith, and what about Chiron? If you master the meaning of Chiron which is suffering AND healing from suffering, there I cannot see a sens, because if it is mastered, then there is no more suffering and perhaps you don't even notice it. Or you have the fortune to understand by wisdom your suffering (the 11th, house of Aquarius), then it could be a mentally perhaps even spiritually healing?
But all this are only speculations.
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Unread 03-22-2014, 06:10 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

It would be easier to respon if you post your chart. I firmly believe that you can guide your transits in a more empowering way by (a) thinking through the core meanings, and then (b) deliberately implementing in your life some positive meanings of the transit in question. Then we are less likely to get blind-sided by whatever the heavens dish out to us.

Uranus can mean either sudden upsets or liberation.

Chiron, where we get hurt, or how we grow in wisdom from the hurts that are part of life. Painful experiences will continue to happen, but we can mature in what we learn from them and how we apply those lessons. Of course, a lot of suffering is psychosomatic or worsened by attitudes of denial or fear, so Chiron can help us to relax around chronic pain or emotional hurts. Spiritual healing, for sure.

Black moon Lilith: the spoiler or the independent woman.

8th house: contemplating the meaning of life in the face of death, the phoenix, where we can kill off anything metaphorically dead or dying in our lives.

If you keep a journal, you might list some positive ways this transit could play out, and then deliberately input some ways to incorporate them into your life.
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  #54  
Unread 03-22-2014, 07:02 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Originally Posted by Sunny View Post
A very interesting discussion, indeed, and so actual for me because I wonder what will happen next to me with Lilith conjuncting exactly on the same degree my Chiron in the 11th house. I still have no answer to this aspect. Any suggestions?
The natal chart is understood as a whole and so the 'cookbook astrology' or 'one-size-fits-all astrology'
of 'everyone with Chiron in 11th is affected this way or that way' is simply unreliable....
and so,
the sign ruler of the 11th and aspects made by that sign ruler are important considerations for assessment
because no single element of any natal chart acts to the exclusion of all others.
A natal chart is a composite of planets, Fixed Stars, signs, aspects and many other considerations
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  #55  
Unread 12-01-2014, 05:07 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I have Chiron conjunct Ceres in my 8th house. Mars is also conjunct part of fortune in my 8th house.
Within the last years, I have lost a total of 12 people whose deaths have totally devastated me. I have psychic gifts and see and hear spirit all the time but death still is quite painful.
All my life, I have been drawn to assisting others in the dying process. As an RN, I have been with hundreds of dying people and families over the last 42 years in practice.
Chiron is a challenge as well as a gift in the 8th house. Part of fortune has helped me to understand my placement.
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  #56  
Unread 12-23-2014, 01:29 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I have Chiron in Cancer in my natal 9th house. The degree at which it is located is right on where Sirius is in the chart. I have no clue what that could signify.

Another interesting aspect of my Chiron placement is that a male friend of mine has his Venus conjuncting it. We had a fling but nothing came of it in the long run.
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Unread 12-23-2014, 02:13 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I have Chiron and Lilith conjunct at my ascendant. Lilith represents the exiled feminine. This is a foundational wounding in our patriarchal society. Expect transformational awareness of the subjugated subjective part of yourself imo.
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  #58  
Unread 12-29-2014, 11:55 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I was enjoying this thread the other day. Very good read; the discussion on past lives was engaging.

I got into a discussion with someone that reminded me of Chiron.

My Chiron is in 1st house Gemini. Ruler Rx Mercury in Leo, combust, 3rd house. Chiron is square to Jupiter in 11th house Pisces, opposing Uranus in 7th house Sagittarius (t-square with Jupiter).

My conversation partner has Chiron in 3rd house Aries, square nodal axis and Mars, opposed to Uranus in 9th house Libra (t-square with Mars, "grand cross" with nodal axis). Ruler Mars is in 1st house Capricorn.

The conversation went like this:

Gemini Chiron: "I find it very painful when I realize how we are creatures interacting with other creatures."

Aries Chiron: "I don't understand. Why is that painful?"

Gemini Chiron: "It's hard to explain. Say you have two hungry people. One of them has a sandwich. The other ones sees the sandwich. Then the sandwich holder sees that the other person is seeing him and seeing the sandwich, and understands the other is hungry and may take the sandwich. That moment when intentions are realized and communication takes place. That hurts. How do we communicate at all when we can never experience what it is the be someone other than yourself? Do you really know? Whenever I realize that boundary my skin crawls."

Aries Chrion: "I'm not sure I get that feeling. I do understand that kind of pain when communication is severed because people do not take the time or effort to allow communication to actually happen. It is up to the speaker to make sure the listener has complete understanding of their words. The listener does not recognize they have some responsibility in the interaction. I've spent so much of my life trying to be understood, to be as clear as possible, feeling like I've done something wrong, but then I realize how much the listener isn't interested in communication but in proclamations that absolve them of responsibility or they have no time for you; "Do you know the answer? Do you know the answer?" It is painful when people do not participate in understanding one another. I see people buy into a false sense of security that allows them to stop participating in real communication."

Do you think the position of Chiron in the charts is shown in these statements? Our house/signs for Chiron are essentially reversed. These seem to be reverse arguments of "suffering" through communication/identity as well. One is sensitive to communication occurring, the other from it not occurring, as it relates to the self.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 12:48 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Originally Posted by theoddone View Post
I have Chiron in Cancer in my natal 9th house. The degree at which it is located is right on where Sirius is in the chart. I have no clue what that could signify.

Another interesting aspect of my Chiron placement is that a male friend of mine has his Venus conjuncting it. We had a fling but nothing came of it in the long run.
Check your Moon placement. Without more information, I would think Chiron here would have to do with your instinctual and emotional reactions; you might have an instinctual understanding of justice, rightfulness, meaningfulness of life. Yet you also have to deal with your feelings and sense of security not fitting in with or being damaged by a framework of law, religion, culture. There could be a sense of inadequacy when it comes travelling, getting an education or looking for a higher purpose.

But that's a bit of a shotgun interpretation.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 12-30-2014 at 12:50 AM.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 01:05 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Originally Posted by Flapjacks View Post
Check your Moon placement. Without more information, I would think Chiron here would have to do with your instinctual and emotional reactions; you might have an instinctual understanding of justice, rightfulness, meaningfulness of life. Yet you also have to deal with your feelings and sense of security not fitting in with or being damaged by a framework of law, religion, culture. There could be a sense of inadequacy when it comes travelling, getting an education or looking for a higher purpose.

But that's a bit of a shotgun interpretation.
Natal moon conjunct natal Venus in the 3rd house with Capricorn ruling it on my chart. My moon and Venus signs are in Aquarius...I'm thinking that's not a very good combo for love or emotions at all.

I think your shotgun interpretation hit the nail on the head for me.

I am a firm believer in equality. I know we're all equal and that no one is better than anyone. I get irritated when people say otherwise. I can't stand seeing pictures of sick children or animals because I find it disturbing and seeing some of those pictures makes me feel ill. I always feel like an outsider and that I don't fit in anywhere and three years of my life were completely controlled by a religious fanatic father. I'm terrified of airplanes, I just failed out of college, and I'm looking into alternative spiritual forms because I will never have anything to do with organized religion or any Christian-based spiritualities again.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 02:31 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting post, Flapjacks. But does anybody truly understand somebody else? We're not mind-readers and I would view someone attempting to do so as intrusive. It would be a kind of psychic invasion.

(Chiron in Sag in the third, Aquarian sun, Mercury, Venus.)
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Unread 12-30-2014, 05:44 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Originally Posted by theoddone View Post
Natal moon conjunct natal Venus in the 3rd house with Capricorn ruling it on my chart. My moon and Venus signs are in Aquarius...I'm thinking that's not a very good combo for love or emotions at all.

I think your shotgun interpretation hit the nail on the head for me.

I am a firm believer in equality. I know we're all equal and that no one is better than anyone. I get irritated when people say otherwise. I can't stand seeing pictures of sick children or animals because I find it disturbing and seeing some of those pictures makes me feel ill. I always feel like an outsider and that I don't fit in anywhere and three years of my life were completely controlled by a religious fanatic father. I'm terrified of airplanes, I just failed out of college, and I'm looking into alternative spiritual forms because I will never have anything to do with organized religion or any Christian-based spiritualities again.
Sounds like you've been going through a lot.

Why wouldn't Aqua Moon/Venus be a good combo? I suppose Aqua isn't the most warm and cuddly sign, but Moon/Venus are unified and the quirkiness of Aquarius is something to embrace, imo. "Equality" is a very Aquarian ideal (values being in the domain of Venus). I imagine you'd be a very egalitarian parent.

Moon in Aqua definitely points to how you might believe your feelings are "wrong" or "weird" or not accepted, even though you show a great deal of empathy. I've noticed personally that showing empathy seems to be taboo (because we're supposed to be tough as nails and empathy is weakness, or something).

Complimenting men on their beards seems a similar taboo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Interesting post, Flapjacks. But does anybody truly understand somebody else? We're not mind-readers and I would view someone attempting to do so as intrusive. It would be a kind of psychic invasion.

(Chiron in Sag in the third, Aquarian sun, Mercury, Venus.)
Ha. (read my mind? how rude!)

One of my good friends was very upset one day but wouldn't tell me why. We were in high school, so it was something we'd probably look back on and laugh about now. Despite the fact that she was near tears, we had to get to class. We stopped in front of the door, and she stared at me and appeared to be concentrating very hard on my eyes.

I said, "I'm so sorry. I can't read your mind. I don't know what is wrong or why you're upset. I wish I did so you wouldn't have to tell me."

She relaxed her face, didn't say anything, and we went to class.

It felt like I failed her.

--

Another instance where Chiron showed itself was when I was asked to give a speech (3rd house Mercury, ruler of Chiron, Gemini = speech) about myself (1st house, Leo) to a large audience. I've only done that once. It was a very bizarre experience. I felt like I lost all sense of self on that stage. Nerves got the best of me, but it was like I shut down and just spoke as if I was a different person. I didn't even recognize my own voice. If you've read The Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison, it is similar to how the protagonist describes speaking to an audience (a very good book, by the way).

At the reception of the event, a man came up to me in tears and said he felt no one else understood what he went through but he knew I did. I didn't know how to respond to him. I didn't know what he went through, but I said something that touched him deeply and I had no idea how to provide whatever healing he was seeking from me. We stood in silence for a while before some other people asked for my attention and I left him. I still wonder if I could have handled that better. That was 10 year ago.

I still have a hard time describing this. It's not that I think we should have psychic powers to communicate. I'm bothered by these divisions and where they blur... if it's a wall or a veil. Contemplating it more than a few seconds feels like falling off a cliff. Perhaps it's also a bit of Saturn conj. DSC that causes this.

Another attempt to explain would be considering the relationship between plants and certain phyla of fungi, which have developed a symbiotic relationship that is difficult to comprehend. They live inside each other. They put out chemical signals to find one another and fuse together, deform one another. Rhizobium bacteria lose their ability to be free-living organisms once they enter the root system of a legume. They shed their cell wall. Totally exposed. Can you imagine an equivalent interaction among humans? Would you shed your skin to live inside someone else, because they provide you with safety and comfort and are much bigger than you? Sometimes I feel that way living within a society.

Creatures interacting with creatures. Merging with creatures, separating from creatures. Misunderstanding each other. Needing each other, being stuck together. It's all very disturbing to me.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 12-30-2014 at 06:47 PM.
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  #63  
Unread 12-30-2014, 09:01 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Great botanical analogy, Flapjacks.

I studied ecology at one point in my life, and learned about commensalism, synergism, parasitism, &c. From an ethology perspective, people are social animals. We are structured to belong to interactive groups. If a type of interaction furthers the survival potential of a group, it's a good thing. If a type of interaction harms the group, then it's not. From the gene pool perspective, harm to an individual organism may actually lead to stronger survivability of the group as a whole. (Darwin said it best.)

From this evolutionary perspective, humans probably engage in all kinds of thoughts and behaviours that don't help or hinder one way of the other. Some ethologists (cf. Jeffrey Masson, When Elephants Weep) seem to think that mutual aid and even affection and compassion are highly viable from a natural selection perspective.

Enter Chiron. Go ahead and feel the heartache of unrequited love. Go ahead and try out for the school play when you won't get the part; or for the team when you won't make the cut. Recognize that a friend craves your understanding but you just won't have it to give. Know that you can touch someone profoundly with an offhand remark, whether hurtful or healing. Feel a lover slip away from you, without knowing why or how to fix the relationship. Detach from a too-negative friend. Bury a parent. Sob at a sad movie-- even knowing these are actors, for goodness sake.

These episodes are what make us the human species. We can grow in Chironic wisdom from them. We can reach out compassionately to others who are hurting. We can listen. A touch, a hug. A meaningful ceremony. A compliment.

We don't have to understand much more than this, really.
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  #64  
Unread 12-30-2014, 09:30 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting that the word 'wound' also means tightly bound, like the gears of a spring loaded clock. A person who is wound up is agitated, and ambitious to recover of the agitation. Chiron is the wounded one, but also the great healer. Without some pain, we would never heal. An unwound clock never ticks.

Also interesting that the name Chiron sounds so similar to the name Charon, which is the name of Pluto's moon. Charon was the mythological ferryman of souls across the river Styx after they die, to move them on into the next world after this one. Death is the greatest wound of all, and Charon would renew them.

My own Chiron is in the eighth house, and also in Taurus, which is blocking my sun.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 10:24 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Great botanical analogy, Flapjacks.

I studied ecology at one point in my life, and learned about commensalism, synergism, parasitism, &c. From an ethology perspective, people are social animals. We are structured to belong to interactive groups. If a type of interaction furthers the survival potential of a group, it's a good thing. If a type of interaction harms the group, then it's not. From the gene pool perspective, harm to an individual organism may actually lead to stronger survivability of the group as a whole. (Darwin said it best.)

From this evolutionary perspective, humans probably engage in all kinds of thoughts and behaviours that don't help or hinder one way of the other. Some ethologists (cf. Jeffrey Masson, When Elephants Weep) seem to think that mutual aid and even affection and compassion are highly viable from a natural selection perspective.

Enter Chiron. Go ahead and feel the heartache of unrequited love. Go ahead and try out for the school play when you won't get the part; or for the team when you won't make the cut. Recognize that a friend craves your understanding but you just won't have it to give. Know that you can touch someone profoundly with an offhand remark, whether hurtful or healing. Feel a lover slip away from you, without knowing why or how to fix the relationship. Detach from a too-negative friend. Bury a parent. Sob at a sad movie-- even knowing these are actors, for goodness sake.

These episodes are what make us the human species. We can grow in Chironic wisdom from them. We can reach out compassionately to others who are hurting. We can listen. A touch, a hug. A meaningful ceremony. A compliment.

We don't have to understand much more than this, really.
Hehe! Yes. Hamiliton's Rule is a popular one. The degree of separation of kinship influences how altruistic one is to others. It's a bias of kin selection to advance one's own genetic heritage that resolves the apparent requirement of selfishness for "survival of the fittest" (a poorly understood phrase).

I read a study where someone used some fancy maths to point out that this "rule" did not explain most interactions in nature; that selflessness had very little to do with kinship. The backlash from evolutionary biologists was huge and makes one wonder how much scientists want to discover vs. preserve their own biases [also, if you read that article, it's a strong example of the observation from the person I spoke with who felt communication is severed when the listener takes no responsibility in understanding the speaker].

... is the Jupiter/Uranus square showing yet?

This is a good way to put it though: Chiron in my chart seems to point to these dynamics you describe through evolutionary biology. There is a gut reaction that is difficult to process. It's an innate feeling of wrongness about existence that comes from it. Yes, as humans we don't have to think about it. But I'm compelled to. Existence as a creature is a bizarre and scary reality. Chiron appeared at the beginning, coming into the world was a wounding and as I age I am healing. Developing a relationship with the universe that isn't filled with shock and unease is the starting point. That is what it is like for 1st house Chiron, perhaps.

The Body (1st house/6th house) and all it's trappings is a cruel thing that one must not think much about to avoid going mad.

I apologize. I'm muddling your much more salient message about compassion!

Last edited by Flapjacks; 12-30-2014 at 11:09 PM.
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Unread 12-30-2014, 11:03 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

All these Chiron stories are interesting.

I did mention that I share a Chiron/Venus conjunction (both in the sign of Cancer in my 9th house, Chiron is also retrograde) with one of my good male friends; I'm Chiron and he's Venus. We had a fling for roughly four months until he found someone he wanted to date. I had developed feelings for him and was heartbroken. It took me a month to get over it. I do know what love should feel like now and I'm glad that Chiron allowed me a glimpse at that. And yes, I'm still friends with the guy and I'm going to try and become friends with his girlfriend.

Is there any truth that having a Chiron/Venus indicates a bond that can't be broken between two people once it's established?
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Unread 12-30-2014, 11:28 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting article, Flapjacks. It points out problems of agreed-upon common definitions (such as altruism) and the significant biological unit, which is probably not the individual, but some type of interacting population, such as the hive, the herd, or the clan. Of course, if genes between prospective mates consistently are too similar, you can end up with downstream genetic defects, suggesting long- vs. short-term evolutionary strategies; as well as the all-important role of habitat and its variability in weeding out narrow gene pools.

Living now as a couple of city slickers in a small rural community where we have no relatives, I can really see the advantages of cooperation and doing things for and with the neighbours. This isn't raw altruism (which doesn't exist in a pure state,) but enlightened self-interest. Building a stock of social capital would have real survival benefits in the event of some type of natural or civil disaster.

Ok, OK, enough pseudo-scientific posturing. Back to Chiron:

You, my dear Flapjacks, are an individual. As such you are of inestimable value. You partake of human dignity and kinship with the divine.

But individuals in human society, as with bees in the hive, get subsumed within the population, however one defines the significant units.

Chiron teaches us to suffer with dignity, because then we can give back our gleanings for the good of the population. You are in a unique position to contribute to those who share your type of anxiety, because you've been there.

(Gotta run, more later.)
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  #68  
Unread 12-31-2014, 03:35 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Flapjacks wrote:

Quote:
Creatures interacting with creatures. Merging with creatures, separating from creatures. Misunderstanding each other. Needing each other, being stuck together. It's all very disturbing to me.
I hope you're OK with a personal chart reading. I took another look at your chart, and note:

1. With Uranus in the 7th exactly opposite Chiron in the first, and Saturn opposite your AC, I wonder if you fundamentally mistrust people to support you. Just when you think you know who somebody is, the relationship can blow up in your face. Possibly because you are attracted to unusual people?

2. This sense is deepened by sun square Pluto. I think this has to be one of the most difficult natal aspects. Pluto deals with things that are dark, deep, irrevocable, brutal, and unstoppable. Children with this aspect were often bullied, and they grow up learning not to trust people; and that relationships deal with inter-personal power relations, in a zero-sum game kind of way. A Cancer sun fundamentally yearns to merge with another human being; yet Pluto says this isn't safe-- you can't trust it.

3. I just finished reading Judy Hall's Hades Moon, about difficult mothers and moon-Pluto aspects. While I think she's excessive, a moon-Pluto square can mean family secrets, experiencing the mother as Plutonian in some way, or even simply being subjected to powerful, difficult emotions. With that brave and true Leo Mercury in the mix, it may be helpful to think of a metaphorical journey, similar to the light-vs. darkness motif in Tokien's fiction.

Quote:
[re: Chiron]..... There is a gut reaction that is difficult to process. It's an innate feeling of wrongness about existence that comes from it. Yes, as humans we don't have to think about it. But I'm compelled to. Existence as a creature is a bizarre and scary reality. Chiron appeared at the beginning, coming into the world was a wounding and as I age I am healing. Developing a relationship with the universe that isn't filled with shock and unease is the starting point. That is what it is like for 1st house Chiron, perhaps.

The Body (1st house/6th house) and all it's trappings is a cruel thing that one must not think much about to avoid going mad.
OK, but the primary mythological meaning of Chiron was his role as a teacher. He was also esteemed as a medical doctor. The point being that planetary Chiron's wounds don't keep a good person down; but are meant to lead to enhanced wisdom, teaching, or healing. And whatever metaphorical sustenance one derives from mythical Chiron being immortalized in the heavens. http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/KentaurosKheiron.html

So handled well (I. e., better than I could,) with Chiron in the first opposed by Uranus and sun square Pluto, you are constantly being called upon to transform yourself. Not once, but ongoingly. Gemini rising likes variety, which is helpful. Mars retrograde in the 8th looks highly suitable for depth psychology.

Existence is monstrous, no? But it can also be happy, funny, or any other emotion we care to project onto it. I recommend happy. Not in any shallow way, but like a deliberate choice despite the bad things life throws at us.
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Last edited by waybread; 12-31-2014 at 03:37 AM.
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Isn't that basically how Chiron is interpreted anyway? As some kind of wound?

I have Chiron in the first house in Gemini.The main thing that comes to mind is that I was born via C-section at a University Hospital, to a team of student doctors. I mean, the symbolism is amazingly concrete here... the birth (Ascendant/first house) involved Chiron (a physician/healer), in Gemini (hands and students).

In terms of personality, it could suggest a level of pain relating to self and identity. That certainly seems accurate enough, as well. Still, I'm not sure if any interpretation of Chiron would work for everyone.
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I really like reading about Chiron. I do agree it effects some people, but not others depending on how it's aspected in the natal chart.

Chiron is the great wounded healer.

My personal impression of Chiron is during our younger years we receive our wounds (per house/aspects) as we mature and grew as a person, we learn how to heal our own wounds (maybe if well aspected) this person becomes the great teacher or healer to others going through similar wounds.

An example, a young adult becomes a drug addict, then suffers through all the pain and misery that this lifestyle has. Then later in life this person cleans up, gets stable, then becomes an advocate for other drug addits. Helps others clean up and get stable. I feel this is Chiron at its greatest. (Sort of)

Chiron must somehow suffer first, and go through the life experience to be able to help people. Chiron healer side, must walk a mile in a Their shoes, so to speak.

The world has many ways of suffering, drugs, family, abuse, at some point every human goes through some sort of suffering, some more than others.
Well aspected chitons will become the healer for the next generation. The cycle never ends..


I have a bowl pattern with Chiron (I believe it's called a bowl, but I could be wrong)

I have Chiron in Aries H1

Chiron sextile Saturn
Chiron trine, sun/moon/merc (conjunction)
Chiron opps Uranus.


Chiron sextile Saturn, Saturn sextile sun/moon/mercury, this sextile Uranus, Uranus opps Chiron.
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Interesting article, Flapjacks. It points out problems of agreed-upon common definitions (such as altruism) and the significant biological unit, which is probably not the individual, but some type of interacting population, such as the hive, the herd, or the clan. Of course, if genes between prospective mates consistently are too similar, you can end up with downstream genetic defects, suggesting long- vs. short-term evolutionary strategies; as well as the all-important role of habitat and its variability in weeding out narrow gene pools.

Living now as a couple of city slickers in a small rural community where we have no relatives, I can really see the advantages of cooperation and doing things for and with the neighbours. This isn't raw altruism (which doesn't exist in a pure state,) but enlightened self-interest. Building a stock of social capital would have real survival benefits in the event of some type of natural or civil disaster.

Ok, OK, enough pseudo-scientific posturing. Back to Chiron:
-insert suitable happy nerd-face here-

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You, my dear Flapjacks, are an individual. As such you are of inestimable value. You partake of human dignity and kinship with the divine.

But individuals in human society, as with bees in the hive, get subsumed within the population, however one defines the significant units.

Chiron teaches us to suffer with dignity, because then we can give back our gleanings for the good of the population. You are in a unique position to contribute to those who share your type of anxiety, because you've been there.

(Gotta run, more later.)
That is a great phrase to remember. I think my anxiety is often too ridiculous to be useful for the population, though.

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Flapjacks wrote:

I hope you're OK with a personal chart reading. I took another look at your chart, and note:

1. With Uranus in the 7th exactly opposite Chiron in the first, and Saturn opposite your AC, I wonder if you fundamentally mistrust people to support you. Just when you think you know who somebody is, the relationship can blow up in your face. Possibly because you are attracted to unusual people?

2. This sense is deepened by sun square Pluto. I think this has to be one of the most difficult natal aspects. Pluto deals with things that are dark, deep, irrevocable, brutal, and unstoppable. Children with this aspect were often bullied, and they grow up learning not to trust people; and that relationships deal with inter-personal power relations, in a zero-sum game kind of way. A Cancer sun fundamentally yearns to merge with another human being; yet Pluto says this isn't safe-- you can't trust it.

3. I just finished reading Judy Hall's Hades Moon, about difficult mothers and moon-Pluto aspects. While I think she's excessive, a moon-Pluto square can mean family secrets, experiencing the mother as Plutonian in some way, or even simply being subjected to powerful, difficult emotions. With that brave and true Leo Mercury in the mix, it may be helpful to think of a metaphorical journey, similar to the light-vs. darkness motif in Tokien's fiction.
Thanks for the look! I'm not sure if trust is the issue, but rather a deep sense of undeserving. I trust that people are generally good and supportive, but I don't deserve for them to be. Any act of kindness or show of interest makes me feel like I'm lying to the person in some way to convince them that I'm worthy of such consideration (even having this conversation). I believe that Pluto has forced several transformations, and that creates a lot of those feelings. I certaintly didn't have an inferiority issue when I was a kid (quite the opposite ).


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
OK, but the primary mythological meaning of Chiron was his role as a teacher. He was also esteemed as a medical doctor. The point being that planetary Chiron's wounds don't keep a good person down; but are meant to lead to enhanced wisdom, teaching, or healing. And whatever metaphorical sustenance one derives from mythical Chiron being immortalized in the heavens. http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/KentaurosKheiron.html
A chart with strong Chiron: I have a friend who has 6th house Chiron conjunct Moon in Gemini, opposed to Saturn/Uranus conjunct in the 12th house, and inconjunct 10H Scorpio Mars. To top all that off, he has Sun/Neptune/Mercury conjunct ASC in Capricorn 1st house. He has difficulty making decisions, prioritizing tasks, understanding social cues (mild Aspergers) and focusing; the state stepped in and made him start seeing a psychologist and now he takes medication (this bothers me a lot personally. It's come to a point where he feels he needs the medication to do anything, and if that is true, then there is a lot more wrong). He lacks common sense and can't handle money very well; he is also generous to a fault and allows others to walk over him or make unfair demands. He has a hard time saying "no" to anyone. He doesn't really operate in the same time as everyone else and that causes problems.

But his difficulties navigating mundane life create a great deal of empathy for other animals that are misunderstood (such as spiders, snakes, lizards, mutts, small wild animals). He would like to create a sanctuary for dispossessed animals and work as a vet, also being an advocate for endangered or threatened wildlife. However, because of all his barriers it's hard to know if he'll manage to do any of that. I know a lot of Capricorn influence can show delays in development, and that is very evident here. Chiron conjunct Moon seems like a very significant placement in all this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion o ness View Post

An example, a young adult becomes a drug addict, then suffers through all the pain and misery that this lifestyle has. Then later in life this person cleans up, gets stable, then becomes an advocate for other drug addits. Helps others clean up and get stable. I feel this is Chiron at its greatest. (Sort of)

Chiron must somehow suffer first, and go through the life experience to be able to help people. Chiron healer side, must walk a mile in a Their shoes, so to speak.
This is a good summary.

Last edited by Flapjacks; 12-31-2014 at 07:36 AM.
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Unread 12-31-2014, 07:24 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting example, Flapjacks, and thanks for the feedback.

A rule of modern astrology is, don't work with the minors until you've analysed the majors. I think the effects of Chiron are very real, but having Saturn oppose one's ascendant can very well create feelings of personal inadequacy. With regard to Pluto square sun, maybe the person you most mistrust is yourself. Also for your friend, this by no means happens in all cases, but hard aspects or conjunctions with the moon are often found in horoscopes of people who have a mental health disability. We might interpret Saturn opposite moon as "negative (Saturn) feelings (Moon,)" and Uranus opposite moon would heighten someone's rapidly changing or unusual (Uranus) emotional nature (moon.)

Chiron adds a lot of explanation to your charts, but the basic life issues can be seen in the major planets and angles.

I do think Chiron's effects are real, and they can be felt in very physical ways. About 10 years ago I slipped on some ice at the end of a hike and broke my ankle. I hand to stump around in one of those plastic boot casts for months, as the fracture took some time to heal. The bone fused all right but not perfectly-- I still walk with that foot turned out slightly. Probably the bigger wound was a continuing dread of walking on icy pavement.

I couldn't find anything in my transits or progressions to explain the accident, till I realized that transiting Chiron conjuncted my Mercury, in the 5th house, in Aquarius. We can really put this together with an astro-grammar: Chiron=wounds, Aquarius rules the ankles, Mercury rules walking, the 5th house rules recreation. Saturn rules the bones as well as ice and traditionally rules Aquarius.

I can't claim any wisdom stemming from the above, except that it was a real wake-up call. At that time, my husband and I were beginning to plan for my retirement (Saturn again,) and I was hoping to dedicate much of it to outdoor recreation (5th house.) Subsequently, with so much time off my feet, I really had to rethink this, and found myself thinking that the goal should be to be helpful to other people.

Incidentally, my Chiron is in Sagittarius in the 3rd, which suggests long distance travel (by me) and siblings. You can guess what some of these visits to their homes have felt like, but I persist in thinking it's the right thing to do.

Chiron can be the Big Ouch in the horoscope, but at some point it asks us to step up to its challenge to make something constructive out of its life experiences.

At some point in our lives, it's not about us, but about what we can contribute. We don't have to be particularly "normal" to be a blessing to others.-- one at a time.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
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Unread 01-16-2015, 11:54 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting also to learn that Chiron is stationed between Saturn and Uranus. The space between Saturn and Uranus was whence astrology transformed from ancient astrology to modern or new age astrology, as Aquarius found a new home on Uranus instead of Saturn and transformed the universe. The Aquarian age is one of great severity, transformation, and trouble for which we must feel rebellion against or for, but also an age of great healing and purification, as we grow to understand more about the depth of universal truth behind the cosmos. Look out for that asteroid!

Last edited by Halo; 01-16-2015 at 11:55 PM. Reason: Minor detail.
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