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Fixed stars, asteroids and other cosmic objects For astrology talks on fixed stars, Chiron, Sedna, Eris or any other newly discovered or little known cosmic object.


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Unread 01-30-2014, 09:00 PM
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Chiron: where it hurts

I thought it would be helpful to have a discussion about Chiron, which often doesn't show up in conventional astrology sites and books.

A lot has been written about Chiron from an esoteric perspective, but my take on it is much more practical. Chiron shows us "where it hurts;" but where, with an open heart and life experience, we can gain wisdom and compassion for other people.

By sign and by house, Chiron indicates how you experience the Big Ouch, and the area of life where you are liable to feel it. By the same token, if we stay open to Chiron, it can show where our wisdom and empathy are to be found. Aspects to Chiron show the other planets or sensitive points engaged in Chiron's project.

For example, Chiron in the 3rd house may show brother-troubles. Chiron in Cancer might ongoingly set us up for hurt feelings.

I usually feel that well aspected planets (especially the domiciled ones) are experienced positively; whereas planets with hard aspects are more likely to have a negative experience and manifestation in the individual's life. (Jupiter and Venus tend to soften the hard aspects.) However, I believe that with diligence, ingenuity, and practice, we can create more constructive expressions of the difficult parts of our horoscopes-- and lives.

Chiron seems to me like an exception to the above rule about aspects. I think it shows where we feel emotional pain even with a decently situated Chiron. I think the reason for this, is that without Chiron's wounds, we never deeply experience the turn-over into maturity about life's hardships. We can't gain in compassion if we can't relate personally to someone else's hurts.

Possibly with a well-aspected Chiron, the turn-over comes more easily. But Chiron reminds us that we are not just just Ken and Barbie dolls in their celophane packages, wearing perpetual smiles in a perfect make-believe world. At some point, Ken and Barbie have to get out of the toy store boxes, and get scuffed up by real life.

Chiron is symbolized by the letter K as a key (in Greek, its name comes out as Keiron.) I think it offers the key to the door between an unhappy state and a more mature and wiser one.

I would love to read your take on Chiron, or your questions about it!

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Unread 01-31-2014, 07:35 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Hi Waybread,
There are many threads on Chiron is this section of A.W.
I found an old one of mine, which might find current member interest in its revival.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ead.php?t=1897

Still checking for the one with the Chiron-Lilith connection thread. It may have gone......didn't realise I had been perched here for so long.
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Unread 01-31-2014, 09:06 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Recently I've been reading what I can into Magi astrology.
They emphasize on geometry in charts and your ASC is not an issue.

Chiron is a very important asteroid in their study.
Having Saturn aspecting Chiron during a period is considered "heartbreak clash" and if your marriage chart has Saturn clash onto Chiron, they say the marriage will usually end in heartbreak. So on your date of marriage you must avoid Saturn aspecting Chiron (and some other planets as well).

However if you have Jupiter aspecting Chiron, especially with a trine it means success. Having Neptune aspecting Chiron can mean long term loving relationship.
http://www.makeagreatchoice.com/magi...ogyLessons.php
Quote:
Chiron is both a Financial Planet and a Romance Planet and is the planet that has rulership over emotional ties, marriages, weddings, the family, spouses, and children. It represents the target of a person's romantic and marital interest. Chiron also has rulership over promises and commitments of love, including engagements and marriage vows. It governs fertility and pregnancies, and the act of giving birth to children in marriage. Chiron rules the marital and romantic instinct and desire of romance, as well as romance itself. It also signifies karmic bonds and intuitive trust. Chiron has dominion over charisma and a person's public image; and being noteworthy, esteemed, distinctive, and distinguished in appearance. Chiron is ruler of your career and how you choose to make a living, as well as where you could be most successful. It also signifies your earning power, the economy, and economics. Chiron imparts extraordinary qualities. It also represents life, death, and reincarnation, and it is symbolic of the future. To say that Chiron is a very important planet is an understatement!
Magi astrology and Chiron is indeed very interesting.
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Unread 01-31-2014, 10:44 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Hi. Thannks for starting this Waybread.

That quote from magi astrology places a very wide spectrum of experiences under Chiron's watch. Though I'm sure any experience can have a Chironian element to it, I'm not sure that we can associate any of those areas primarily with Chiron. I'd be interested to see the chart of the author of the quote to see if they had Chiron conjunct Jupiter rising or culminating, or something similar!

I think its interesting that Chiron probably arrived in the solar system after life began to evolve on Earth. I see it as a symbol of the transition stage between raw and unreflective bestiality, and whatever the human race of today is gradually evolving into. That's why we feel so helpless and/or angry where Chironian energy touches our lives - now that we can see a dim and distant light at the end of the tunnel of our evolution, its difficult to accept the way things are in the world. But we are emerging from a natural world where selfishness and a 'kill or be killed' mentality are synonymous with survival, and so perhaps the key thing with Chiron is to be able to accept each stage of the journey as necessary - to carry woundedness and unfairness gracefully, and perhaps to use it creatively, and thus set an example for others to do the same.

They say that one day Chiron will be ejected from the solar system, but not for a very long time...
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Unread 01-31-2014, 08:18 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Interesting ideas, everyone.

Frisiangal, I looked at your thread. I don't know if I have scars corresponding to Chiron transits. However, I used to ignore it completely, because I was kind of put off by the esoteric approach to it. Then a few years ago I broke my ankle by slipping on some ice during a hike in a provincial park. I checked the usual transits and progressions but nothing seemed to explain what happened. Then I realized that transiting Chiron conjuncted my Aquarius Mercury in the 5th house. Click. Mercury rules walking, Aquarius rules the ankles, and the 5th house includes various recreational activities! It took a long time to heal, and due to troubles with the walking cast, that foot now turns out slightly.

This made me think that Chiron's wounds can be physical, not merely spiritual.
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Unread 01-31-2014, 10:57 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Quote:
This made me think that Chiron's wounds can be physical, not merely spiritual.
Hi again, Waybread,
Chiron's scars resulting from a physical wound will themselves be physical of nature of course. Yet the manner through which I look at physical disorders, of which you must be more than aware by now, would suggest that the physical complaint is an inner manifestation and result of either a non-manifested emotional or spiritual nature. I believe there to be a difference between them, just as there is a difference between how Moon, Mercury and Sun influences 'work'.

I remember you mentioning your broken ankle after it happened, although not the exact period. I'd look for the usual suspects where slipping, ice, accident-breakage is concerned.
If the cast (Saturn?) caused physical problems (Virgo?)[gained from your dream experience], Chiron's transit could have initiated the foot problem. When you write 'the foot turns slightly' I'd be inclined to wonder whether, emotionally-spiritually, one's mind and/or feelings didn't turn enough (change of perspective) regarding a long-standing (no pun intended) Saturn issue, so the 'inner pain' comes out via the physical foot. You've mentioned other physical issues of a Saturn-Virgo nature recently. It would seem that natal Saturn squares natal Chiron; a constant theme in life regarding the two?

Miquar wrote:
Quote:
I see it as a symbol of the transition stage between raw and unreflective bestiality, and whatever the human race of today is gradually evolving into
I mention yet again Robert van Heeren's original thoughts regarding the Kuyper Belt Objects representing 'that which is beyond human understanding.' Chiron represents the transition from lower to a more conscious level of understanding. As world affairs reach us through the media, we have become aware of the 'inhuman' atrocities that occured in the past, and still do, that make us wonder 'how is such possible?' which, hopefully, creates the energy to turn and make the necessary change.
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Unread 01-31-2014, 11:27 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Chiron's wounds can also be past-life - a negatively aspected Chiron with perhaps the Node or Vertex can indicate past-life wounds carried over into this life for resolution. A well-aspected Chiron can indicate someone who can eventually assist others with their wounds and healings - it doesn't mean you yourself are immune to pain, only that you are better able at dealing with it and helping others after you've assimilated the lessons. Some people with a very negatively aspected Chiron may spend their entire lives just dealing with their own pain, and not be in the position to counsel others. While I suppose it can represent physical pain (as in a Chiron-Mars square, for example), but I think most of the time the pain will be emotional, mental, or spiritual.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 04:19 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Frisiangal, as I've mentioned before, I think some illnesses and injuries have an emotional/spiritual cause, but not all of them. For example, if a baby is born with a genetic disorder passed on by the parents' genes, or birth defects, I don't think you can say that these have an emotional or spiritual cause. Of course, many illnesses and injuries can be exacerbated by negativity.

I do have natal Chiron square Saturn and Mars, but also sextiling Mercury and Venus and trine moon, so on the balance I don't find it to be such a hard placement.

With a Saturn-Mars opposition, I've been working on it and with it for some time, to the point where I don't necessarily experience it as troublesome, as I did even 8 years ago. To me, the key to oppositions and squares is to find some sort of activity or challenge that integrates both planets' meanings in a way that coordinates their optimal natures. An athletic activity (Mars) that stresses self-discipline and endurance (Saturn) has helped significantly.

Chiron reminds me of the saying, that we avoid mistakes through wisdom. We gain wisdom through experience. We gain experience by making mistakes.


Re: mdinaz's point about past lives karma. I am increasingly persuaded about reincarnation, but I don't know that we can say that wounds or bad karma from one life transfers to the next one. I suppose this is because I first began to take reincarnation seriously in reading the Jane Roberts "Seth" books. "Seth" describes reincarnation into a particular format as more of a choice to work on various issues or to expand one's creativity, rather than a burdensome legacy necessarily carried from one life to another.

BTW, just a great book on past lives, written by a psychiatry professor who interviews children who claim to have had past lives is: Jim Tucker, Return to Life.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 02:19 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Interesting ideas, everyone.

Frisiangal, I looked at your thread. I don't know if I have scars corresponding to Chiron transits. However, I used to ignore it completely, because I was kind of put off by the esoteric approach to it. Then a few years ago I broke my ankle by slipping on some ice during a hike in a provincial park. I checked the usual transits and progressions but nothing seemed to explain what happened. Then I realized that transiting Chiron conjuncted my Aquarius Mercury in the 5th house. Click. Mercury rules walking, Aquarius rules the ankles, and the 5th house includes various recreational activities! It took a long time to heal, and due to troubles with the walking cast, that foot now turns out slightly.

This made me think that Chiron's wounds can be physical, not merely spiritual.
Swiss Ephemeris for 6000 years shows the daily location of Chiron
note that Chiron is on the same degree for up to fourteen days
and so as Frisiangal mentions
'look for the usual suspects'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisiangal View Post
Hi again, Waybread,
Chiron's scars resulting from a physical wound will themselves be physical of nature of course. Yet the manner through which I look at physical disorders, of which you must be more than aware by now, would suggest that the physical complaint is an inner manifestation and result of either a non-manifested emotional or spiritual nature. I believe there to be a difference between them, just as there is a difference between how Moon, Mercury and Sun influences 'work'.

I remember you mentioning your broken ankle after it happened, although not the exact period. I'd look for the usual suspects where slipping, ice, accident-breakage is concerned.
If the cast (Saturn?) caused physical problems (Virgo?)[gained from your dream experience], Chiron's transit could have initiated the foot problem. When you write 'the foot turns slightly' I'd be inclined to wonder whether, emotionally-spiritually, one's mind and/or feelings didn't turn enough (change of perspective) regarding a long-standing (no pun intended) Saturn issue, so the 'inner pain' comes out via the physical foot. You've mentioned other physical issues of a Saturn-Virgo nature recently. It would seem that natal Saturn squares natal Chiron; a constant theme in life regarding the two?

Miquar wrote:

I mention yet again Robert van Heeren's original thoughts regarding the Kuyper Belt Objects representing 'that which is beyond human understanding.' Chiron represents the transition from lower to a more conscious level of understanding. As world affairs reach us through the media, we have become aware of the 'inhuman' atrocities that occured in the past, and still do, that make us wonder 'how is such possible?' which, hopefully, creates the energy to turn and make the necessary change.

Consider also any solar or lunar eclipses occurring at that time

Celeste Teal describes their effects
http://www.moonvalleyastrologer.com/
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Unread 02-01-2014, 03:33 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Frisiangal, as I've mentioned before, I think some illnesses and injuries have an emotional/spiritual cause, but not all of them. For example, if a baby is born with a genetic disorder passed on by the parents' genes, or birth defects, I don't think you can say that these have an emotional or spiritual cause. Of course, many illnesses and injuries can be exacerbated by negativity.
We all choose the challenges of our lives before we are born, and that includes those born with defects. While we may never understand, while in this dimension, WHY a soul would choose this, they do. Every aspect of life is to be learned and understood, and this includes the difficult aspects. We cannot understand light without dark, dark without light. God and the Universe are the sum of all experiences, positive and negative. While the birth defects are not caused by an emotional crisis in this life, they may have been created in a previous life. An example of past-life carryover are birth marks, traces of a previous crisis on our bodies. I was born with the strangest mark, an absolutely perfectly square patch that was about two inches square on my abdomen, and my mother swears there was nothing that occurred to me as a baby to cause that. My daughter has a mark on her back that looks exactly like a stab wound. I know another woman, who when I first met her, appeared to have a gunshot wound on her face. She later related a past life she experienced in which she was shot in the face in her most recent incarnation. Another man I know had a mark around his neck like a rope burn, and also related a past life in which he had been hanged. The trauma was still there, in a very subtle, but visible fashion. My mark eventually faded and disappeared as an adult, other people's remain their entire lives. Other traumas from past lives come out as current-life phobias - drowning in a past life comes out as a fear of water in this life. I was hanged in a past life and in this life I absolutely hate anything tight around my neck, whether a tie, shirt. or people even touching my neck. I also hate anything on my wrists, like a watch - likely because I had been bound as well.

Quote:
With a Saturn-Mars opposition, I've been working on it and with it for some time, to the point where I don't necessarily experience it as troublesome, as I did even 8 years ago. To me, the key to oppositions and squares is to find some sort of activity or challenge that integrates both planets' meanings in a way that coordinates their optimal natures. An athletic activity (Mars) that stresses self-discipline and endurance (Saturn) has helped significantly.
I have the same opposition. The hardest part is getting started. After that the hardest part is stopping.



Quote:
Re: mdinaz's point about past lives karma. I am increasingly persuaded about reincarnation, but I don't know that we can say that wounds or bad karma from one life transfers to the next one. I suppose this is because I first began to take reincarnation seriously in reading the Jane Roberts "Seth" books. "Seth" describes reincarnation into a particular format as more of a choice to work on various issues or to expand one's creativity, rather than a burdensome legacy necessarily carried from one life to another.
I've read these also so I know what you are talking about. Sometimes our work isn't finished in one life. We don't just abandon it however, but continue it in another time that is also conducive to allowing that resolution. My ex-wife and I had a very powerful karmic relationship that was not resolved in the last life. I remember it and what happened. We (or I, anyway) was forced to confront it again and I worked very hard to resolve our issue, no matter how the relationship ended. This is why suicide is never an option - you'll still have to confront the issues at some point, in this life or another. It isn't a burden to the soul - this is why we are here. It may seem a burden to the ego, but it isn't to the soul.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 05:15 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

mdinaz, I will come full-circle to Chiron and past-lives in a moment! I need to preface it with some background information.

I hope you do read the Jim Tucker book, Return to Life! The author is a University of Virginia profesor of psychiatry, with an endowed chair. I know you are sceptical of credentials, but his are solid. http://www.jimbtucker.com/

Tucker's work isn't about past-life regressions or hypnotism, but rather he interviews little kids who either claim to remember past lives; or else who start saying things and exhibiting behaviours at a young age that a little child wouldn't normally have the life experience or cognitive development to do. Tucker covers the sceptics' bases, which he has to do in order to publish his findings in academic journals. The main sceptics' base that he covers is actually locating the child's previous incarnation through research.

I think anybody can claim to be a reincarnation of somebody or other, or of having had a specific past-life experience, yet without external verification. What impressed me about Tucker's work is that he and his research team painstakingly verify that these previous people existed and match the child's memories in specific ways-- he's able to trace military records, living family members, biographical materials, and so on.

Tucker is highly sceptical himself of past-lives claims of older individuals, as usually the child's memories fade when they get older. Also, as a psychiatrist, he's well aware that several adults can simultaneously claim to be the identical famous figure from the past; or simply have a good-faith yet unverifiable belief about a past life.

I think it is a good idea to keep an open but sceptical mind about past-lives and astrology, namely because astrology itself is not an exact science, and because few astrologers (outside of Nicholas Campion) seem to have much background in history.

I became very sceptical of the past-lives astrology of Jan Spiller and others, based largely on the moon's nodes and pre-natal eclipses, when their pronouncements about people today with a given placement just couldn't match up with the historical demography. There just weren't enough members of the clergy or royal families to match up with the millions of people in the population today who would have the diagnostic placement. Mary Devlin's book is some better, but not entirely convincing.

I am so tempted to write to Tucker to see whether it might be possible to get some birth data, and to match up horoscopes between a past life and a child today. One doubts that he would agree, but this is where you could look at Chiron across lives to see whether your theory (or any other astrological theory about past lives) pans out. What sorts of placements would you anticipate for Chiron between this life and the previous one?

And then some phobias have clear present-life associations. For example, I once had a friend who was terrified of dogs. But she was bitten as a child and had to undergo the whole series of rabies shots when the dog couldn't be found. Possibly in her case we would see an afflicted Chiron in the 6th house of small animals or something; but I've lost touch. But we don't need to postulate a previous life trauma to explain her fear. I've known two women with severe cat phobias, and it is hard to see how a cat might have killed them in a past life. (No, cats do not jump up on baby's cribs to suck the life out them, as the old wives' tale would have it.)

My feeling with Chiron is that there are probably enough this-life episodes to explore that we don't need to delve into past lives episodes that cannot be externally substantiated-- and may be primarily the intriguing result of a vivid imagination.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-01-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 05:27 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

BTW, here is an image of the orbit of Chiron from Wikipedia-- it swings between just inside the orbit of Jupiter to just outside the orbit of Uranus. Perhaps a metaphor for faith (Jupiter), harsh realities (Saturn) and personal liberation (Uranus.)
Attached Images
File Type: png Chiron_orbit.png (25.0 KB, 5 views)
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Unread 02-01-2014, 07:23 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
mdinaz, I will come full-circle to Chiron and past-lives in a moment! I need to preface it with some background information.

I hope you do read the Jim Tucker book, Return to Life! The author is a University of Virginia profesor of psychiatry, with an endowed chair. I know you are sceptical of credentials, but his are solid. http://www.jimbtucker.com/
I read many such books years ago, I may have read it already and just don't recall. I'd have to look at it and see.



Quote:
Tucker's work isn't about past-life regressions or hypnotism, but rather he interviews little kids who either claim to remember past lives; or else who start saying things and exhibiting behaviours at a young age that a little child wouldn't normally have the life experience or cognitive development to do. Tucker covers the sceptics' bases, which he has to do in order to publish his findings in academic journals. The main sceptics' base that he covers is actually locating the child's previous incarnation through research.

I think anybody can claim to be a reincarnation of somebody or other, or of having had a specific past-life experience, yet without external verification. What impressed me about Tucker's work is that he and his research team painstakingly verify that these previous people existed and match the child's memories in specific ways-- he's able to trace military records, living family members, biographical materials, and so on.

Tucker is highly sceptical himself of past-lives claims of older individuals, as usually the child's memories fade when they get older. Also, as a psychiatrist, he's well aware that several adults can simultaneously claim to be the identical famous figure from the past; or simply have a good-faith yet unverifiable belief about a past life.
The vast majority are going to be unverifiable because the vast majority of people who have ever lived were not documented in any meaningful way. Unless they lived in the 20th century there is just too little data to check and make positive confirmation. I understand what he's trying to do but too few will be ever able to be proven conclusively. In my particular cases, I cannot prove them nor would I ever attempt to convince anyone of them - I am personally satisfied with everything I have perceived and achieved and that's good enough for me.

One thing none of these researchers manage to understand is that lives don't always follow in a perfectly linear fashion - lives can over lap and you can live more than one life at one time. I am aware of at least six lives that I lived in the late 19th century, and I have vivid memories of several. That period of history was very dynamic and a tremendous source of learning and life experience. There are other periods of history that I also know I lived many lives in. Because of this, yes, more than one person can claim to be connected to a particular life. I am aware of at least two other lives I'm living at this moment elsewhere in the world. The soul is not limited in such a fashion - it can project and experience any where at any time because the Universe is not constrained by ideas of time or distance. Everything occurs at once in a perpetual now, there is no past or future in a linear fashion. Psychics and channelers can "see" the future because the future already exists. I am aware of several future lives as well, and so are many other people.

All the ones I remember have not been derived from regression therapy or hypnosis, all are the result of vivid or lucid dreams over many years. Seldom do I get enough specific details that I could actually track one of them down to a specific individual. I have, however, on many occasions gotten details in dreams, such as the name of a town in a particular place and after research discovered that it did indeed exist in the location indicated. Another example was once I saw a photo of a mountain that I had never seen before, yet I instantly knew where it was - not only the country, but the name of the region as well. I went on to read the article the photo was in and it indeed was where I thought it was. The reason I instantly knew where it was without even thinking about it was because of a past life I was already aware of that had been in that area and my one current parallel life that is there now.

Everything you do in this life affects your other lives, and they you. The more you grow spiritually in this life enables them to grow as well. It's not static. Sudden talents or inspiration are often from your other selves, places where they have experience that maybe you do not in this life. We've also all seen the child prodigy - a kid who shows sudden and great talent in music, math, whatever.

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I think it is a good idea to keep an open but sceptical mind about past-lives and astrology, namely because astrology itself is not an exact science, and because few astrologers (outside of Nicholas Campion) seem to have much background in history.
I have a strong background in history and I do understand the ability or tendency for people to want to embellish. I always take any dream or vision I have at face-value; I don't interpolate or try to manufacture a narrative around a snippet I may perceive. Some of the lives I'm aware of have taken years to develop into a coherent whole - small snippets here and there that eventually coalesce into a narrative. Your higher self only lets you see what you need to see when you need to see it.

As an example, I became aware recently that one of the lives that I was only vaguely aware of was actually also a famous historical entity (and no, I will not name it). I was aware of tiny bits of it over the past 20 years, but could not ever really place it or put a face on it. But then recent events between myself and other people whom I have karmic relationships came to a head in a dramatic fashion and then it all came together - I only need to see what is needed at that time, and at that time finally, as Paul Harvey used to say, "now you know the rest of the story". These other people were also part of that life and it was finally time to resolve it and put it to rest. I don't believe you remember any past life just for entertainment, but because there is still something to resolve or to learn from it.


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I became very sceptical of the past-lives astrology of Jan Spiller and others, based largely on the moon's nodes and pre-natal eclipses, when their pronouncements about people today with a given placement just couldn't match up with the historical demography. There just weren't enough members of the clergy or royal families to match up with the millions of people in the population today who would have the diagnostic placement. Mary Devlin's book is some better, but not entirely convincing.
Most of us have lived hundreds if not thousands of past lives, and many of us are living more than one right now. No astrology chart can reflect that - it can only reflect YOUR life, right now. While who you chose to be in this life can be influenced by some of your other adventures, your incarnation today is still highly specific.

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I am so tempted to write to Tucker to see whether it might be possible to get some birth data, and to match up horoscopes between a past life and a child today. One doubts that he would agree, but this is where you could look at Chiron across lives to see whether your theory (or any other astrological theory about past lives) pans out. What sorts of placements would you anticipate for Chiron between this life and the previous one?
I don't think you would get anything meaningful out of it. The only real place where I see past life connections that have clear current-life implications are when doing composite charts of karmic relationships, in which case I can often see very clear past-life connections. This is because a relationship between two people is very specific and often tied to a very specific life. Your natal chart is the sum of all of YOUs, however many there were.

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And then some phobias have clear present-life associations. For example, I once had a friend who was terrified of dogs. But she was bitten as a child and had to undergo the whole series of rabies shots when the dog couldn't be found. Possibly in her case we would see an afflicted Chiron in the 6th house of small animals or something; but I've lost touch. But we don't need to postulate a previous life trauma to explain her fear. I've known two women with severe cat phobias, and it is hard to see how a cat might have killed them in a past life. (No, cats do not jump up on baby's cribs to suck the life out them, as the old wives' tale would have it.)
Not if they had been fed to the lions in a previous life, for example. That's pretty traumatic. Some phobias people have are completely irrational, such as a morbid fear of the ocean for a person who has never seen the ocean, for example.

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My feeling with Chiron is that there are probably enough this-life episodes to explore that we don't need to delve into past lives episodes that cannot be externally substantiated-- and may be primarily the intriguing result of a vivid imagination.
When I deal with Chiron in a person's natal chart, I always stick to current life issues, unless node-vertex-chiron aspects indicate otherwise, which is pretty seldom. Past-life patterning is still pretty powerful and cannot be completely discounted, but you are correct that it should not be a first-resort.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 08:08 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

mdinaz, past lives and simultaneity of time are fascinating topic, regardless of one's views of them. A subject for a new thread, perhaps?

Personally, I've got my hands full of this incarnation. I've had vivid dreams and day-dream types of experiences of myself as looking out through the eyes of someone in the past, yet I am not prepared to assert that this was me at some other point in time. I hardly think the frequency of cat phobias today has anything to do with prisoners being fed to the lions: again, the historical demography and the times and locations of this practice just do not match up.

I don't want to invalidate your personal experiences, so I will leave it at that.

Heaven help the other poor soul/s with whom I currently share myself, if there are any just now! S/he has my sympathies.

Whatever one's views of the influences of past lives on this one, Chiron does keep our hands full in this incarnation.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 11:37 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I have Chiron in the 8th house in Gemini. I suppose perhaps I can say I am all too familiar with pain, and using pain as a transformative mechanism?
I've also always wondered why I had this rather painful reaction to my, and other people's, sexuality... I used to think it was my rather conservative upbringing, but my siblings don't suffer the same. Interestingly I've found sex very therapeutic, and I've been told I have certain "talents".
I often have very strange sexual dreams... I can't describe them here, but they often morph into something bizarre (think shape-shifting, etc). Aspects are Mercury conjunction Chiron, Jupiter sextile Chiron, Saturn opposition Chiron, Uranus opposition Chiron. All of which are tight except the last with an orb of 5. I'm not sure how to interpret those. I think perhaps Uranus has something to do with my odd dreams (4th house of sleep is ruled by Uranus). Saturn opposition perhaps explains my rigidity when it comes to my and other's sexuality, especially that of a partner... something that can easily wound me I've realised. Not sure about the other planets. But I suppose it's not just sexuality, but also the possession of others and their possessions. in my mind, when it comes to partnerships and friendships I've felt the best way to be "whole" is approach each other as "what is mine is yours and what is yours is mine". I've attributed it to my Scorpio Rising, but perhaps Chiron in 8th house is where my problem with jealously and possessiveness is routed. Luckily I've always known this and avoid it "acting it out", but I still allow it to eat me up inside. Until someone I like is possessive of me and for some reason that's a pleasant feeling.

Let me know if I'm on the right track.
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Unread 02-01-2014, 11:43 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I've also found that sex is the easiest and most enjoyable topic to talk about, just out of sheer curiosity, from an intellectual standpoint. But depending on whom I'm speaking with, and on how the conversation goes, it can secretly become painful. Which always bothered be because I've never been sexually abused, yet I internally feel like I react as a victim of such abuse... I wouldn't be surprised if I was in a "past life"
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Unread 02-02-2014, 09:39 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

There are enough cookbook studies available to discuss and get a grip on Chiron in its general terms . What might be more difficult is to separate the functions which have been applied to it, from those that can be said to be found in, or obtained from the functions in the known planets, traditional and modern. Maybe it IS a case of taking the whole chart and seeking the kink or link in the cable that can offer a manner towards complete picture unity.

That done, imho there is also a strong difference according to in which element Chiron is placed.
A good example is given by Dioskouris regarding Chiron in Air (mental abstract). One might ask how is Air affiliated in the rest of the chart and is it felt to work beneficially or otherwise with the rest of the chart.

Chiron in Earth (matter), and the most heavily aspected object in my chart definitely refers to my 'thing' with the evidence (Virgo) found in physical (day-to-day) existence. Although it suits 'the proof of the pudding' of an Earth trine, it 'cuts like a knife' in its harsh aspects to Mars in Water and Uranus in Air. Yet it's the harsh aspects that had to bring about the mental change of perspective to a Earth content that lacked feeling (NN in Cancer).

My grand trine in Earth/Air son has a well-aspected Chiron in the 2nd house in Fire(spirit). He always said that materialism was not important to him as long as he had enough to live on (strong Virgo!). He had never had to fend for himself until a traumatic divorce left him financially penniless. He was mentally and emotionally depressed and his Uranian Spirit was broken. With a 1st house NN in Aquarius, there appears to be a necessity towards personal independence. You can't be independent without the financial means to do and be so, can you?? Is this where his Chiron comes in?
He is still financially supported and the 'inner pain that fires him up' is that he is not yet completely, independentally, financially sound and solvent to support himself and go his own way.
His Chiron trines natal Neptune-M.C. in Sag. His profession is in the teaching emergencty response sector, that suits both Chiron and Neptune. A vocation that I've always felt optimistic about for him. After a dreadful and now separating tr. Neptune square itself, and tr. Uranus and Pluto to natal Chiron, work is beginning to pick up again. The first 'positive' bank balance due to all his own effort has had a good effect and made him feel much better about himself.

Mdinaz wrote: 'suicide is never an option'.

Unexpected events yesterday stopped me from completing a post in which I expressed the thought whether Chiron does refer to 'scarred for life' events which can relate to suicide attempts.

A person with Chiron-Moon in water(feeling) has the conjunction with Pluto in Leo across the 6th-7th houses. The mother committed suicide when the individual was still a child. Yet the feeling that a mother did not care enough for her children 'hurt so much inside' when old enough to reflect upon the why of it. Several failed attempts at suicide occured. The individual entered a profession in which dealing with the pain of children played a significant role, and stayed in an unhappy marriage 'for the sake of the children.' Walking the mile in their shoes? Later divorced, re-married and step-parent to 4 other children.

Within the family circle, someone has a very strong 12th house influence with natal Pluto-Chiron in the 7th house opposing 1st house Mars. The individual was severely bullied as a child at junior school. Too young to understand the why of it and living with such an inner pain, the now teenager attempted suicide, being found in time by a close relative. Under psychological treatment the individual was asked what they wanted to do later in life. 'Something like you....helping people' was the reply.

In all examples there is no physical scar as a result of an accident or medical intervention. The scar lies inside, yet, imho, it is just as painfully felt as anything physically inflicted.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-02-2014 at 09:55 AM. Reason: editing!
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Unread 02-02-2014, 09:59 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Chiron is the only mythical character that I can think of who commits suicide. He begs Zeus to transfer his immorality to Prometheus so that he can die. Of course other archetypes (namely Neptune and Pluto) are also very connected with suicide, especially when these energies overwhelm the Sun and turn the aggression of Mars back on the individual.

None of us live life to the full. So we are all engage in an ongoing act of partial suicide. Chiron, Neptune and Pluto say a lot about where and how we do this - how we would rather be in control (Pluto), back in the womb (Neptune) or free from pain (Chiron) than fully alive.
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Unread 02-02-2014, 10:15 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Chiron is the only mythical character that I can think of who commits suicide. He begs Zeus to transfer his immorality to Prometheus so that he can die. Of course other archetypes (namely Neptune and Pluto) are also very connected with suicide, especially when these energies overwhelm the Sun and turn the aggression of Mars back on the individual.

None of us live life to the full. So we are all engage in an ongoing act of partial suicide. Chiron, Neptune and Pluto say a lot about where and how we do this - how we would rather be in control (Pluto), back in the womb (Neptune) or free from pain (Chiron) than fully alive.
I noticed the suicide thread elsewhere and felt this comment from Waybread fitted the bill for Chiron:
Quote:
suicide is a tragic "permanent solution to a temporary problem," generally following huge amounts of emotional pain
I deleted but will now add what I wrote in the previous post. ALL people go through periods when 'ending it all' seems like a good solution to issues with wich they are contending. They just want the inwardly agonising period they are going through to go away. Unfortunately, many going through such mentally and/or emotionally difficult...or unstable... periods are unable to visualise the other possibilities. E.g. The number of suicides in this country as a result of recession unemployment and financial difficulties is eye-boggling.
Chiron, as the therapist sought for help, can offer these perspectives and hopefully bring about 'the breakthrough' towards Uranus's 'enlightment'.

Last edited by Frisiangal; 02-02-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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Unread 02-02-2014, 10:52 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Hi. Yes, I was more referring to the way we kill off bits of ourselves in order to avoid the ongoing struggle to be more fully alive.
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Unread 02-02-2014, 07:02 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I am a big fan of studying mythology to inform astrology, but I think it has its limits. After all, Jupiter was a constant philanderer! Young mercury was a liar and thief, which is why he rules such people today.

The main thing about Chiron is the promise of wisdom, as the light at the end of the tunnel. The centaur Chiron was not only a great physician but also the tutor to many Greek legendary heroes. In one version of his mythology, he was immortalized as the constellation Sagittarius. In another, Centaurus.

To my way of thinking, suicide is an arrested process so far as Chiron is concerned. Sometimes emotional pain has a verifiable physical or chemical cause: severe depression, as we know, is not merely a string of bad days. I don't wish to sound insensitive to it. Yet Chiron asks us to push through the pain-- with mental health professions and medication-- if needed. Or to transform our pain.

Some prime examples would be former drug addicts who become addictions counselors; or war amputees whose charity includes work with fellow veterans with disabilities or with children missing limbs. They have the capacity to be extremely effective because of their painful first-hand experience.
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Unread 02-02-2014, 11:24 PM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

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Yet Chiron asks us to push through the pain-- with mental health professions and medication-- if needed. Or to transform our pain.
I hope it is okay for me to jump in here briefly. wb, you make a good point.

I would go further and say that Chiron asks us to respect our pain, to bring dignity to it. Like Chiron, we can never escape suffering in this life or even transform it. Suffering is a natural part of life in birth, illness and death.

But we can respect it by being with it, and by not making up or drawing upon and continually replaying story lines about it. By just being with the unadulterated, direct experience of our pain, we bring dignity to an inescapable aspect of all our lives. Our aspiration here is that all young folks to make it far enough in life to learn this invaluable lesson.

Best to all for an interesting thread,
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Unread 02-03-2014, 06:47 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

Hi. I don't mean to advocate suicide as an expression of Chiron - just to point out that it can be expressed that way, just as Mercury can be expressed as cunning, and Jupiter as philandering.
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Unread 02-03-2014, 09:52 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

It is indeed interesting how you see Chiron as hurtful - but as I did point out earlier, Magi astro society has researched Chiron's effects for decades - and they do indeed call Chiron- Saturn aspects heartbreak clashes, meaning that it will be devastating experience occuring. They do especially warn people not to marry on a day with a Saturn clash to Chiron. One example of this heartbreak marriages is Woody Allen with Mia Farrow - I can imagine her heartbreak and pain when her husband has (allegedly) been abusing their children and then goes on to marry one of their adopted daughters. That would be considered sick in most families. But there are many more examples they list of these heartbreak marriages ... so now I am indeed on the lookout not to have Saturn hard aspects on the day I will marry.

It is interesting to see your thoughts on past lives. I was once hypnotised and what came out of it were my stories of two past lives and when I came out of it, I laughed to myself and admired my own poetic and story making abilities - but the skeptic in me cannot get over the thought of "having parallel lives, a few at the same moment in time". How would that be possible? I think not.
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Unread 02-04-2014, 04:21 AM
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Re: Chiron: where it hurts

I'm starting to think of Chiron like I think of the 4 goddess asteroids - in terms of themes present in ones live whenever the asteroid conjuncts personal planets. Then it is very pronounced.

I know that square and opposition aspects to Chiron (like Venus sq Chiron) are very valid too, but I feel it is a very important theme when conjunct.

The reason I feel this way is: I've read for a few people where Chiron do not touch personal planets/ or angles and they cannot relate to the reading of wounding in the sign or house. For some people it is just not strong on the radar. They may feel more wounded by their Venus sq Saturn or Sun conjunct Neptune for example...
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