Narcissistic personality disorder-a research

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
Alrescha -

I have a question regarding your research findings -

Do you think it is a given that Narcissistic men hate their mothers?

The "sailor" whom I shared about earlier, always spoke kindly and loving about his mother, but when he spoke with her on the phone, he was always talking trash on the "F*d-up* women he had had in his life. He would discuss explicit sexual encounters that he had with past women and he would say things to her like "you know how women can be..." in very angry tones as well as calling them C's and W's to her. But he never said angry things to or about her. Of course I noticed this stuff right away, and even discussed my perspective about his perspective, with him. His way of handling it was "pedestalizing" me - and saying stuff like "oh, you're different, you're better than that", and so on....and to a dumbstruck heart, that often works as an easy "out" to dissuade any doubts, as well as to manipulate, by discussing the 'quality' or 'specialness' of the narcissist's prey.

Anyway - I am and was grateful to get out of that relation fairly quickly, but still embarrassed that I let those warning flags go unheeded for as long as they did.

His mother appeared to be doting - sending him cookies and sweaters and gifts frequently - but she had divorced his father when he was 12 and all he ever did was talk about the "string of @ssholes" that marched in and out of her life after that.

He always talked badly about his own father, but whenever the 45 year old sailor needed anything ~ cash, nautical advice, new equipment for his sailboat, etc, his father was the first person he called.

I don't even like to recount this stuff from memory because it was so damaging and ugly at the time, but as I said, I am curious if the misogyny is a main character trait of narcissistic men (or women, I guess, for that matter).

Yes, they do seem to hate their mothers. Their Moons are often challenged by either Saturn or Pluto or both.

Those that have strong Cancer energy seem to make a special sub-category that enjoys being both submissive and dominating to their mothers. Some exploit the wife/gf at the mother's advancement, while others do the opposite. And some just are submissive to their mothers and the wife takes the mother's place when the mother is gone. I was just reading another one's chart today, 5th house CaSo90LiPl, 6th house Le Sa 0 Mo, his gf is around 20 years younger, he is still living with his mom. ahahahahhaha 7 subjects are co-dependents with their mothers and/or wives
 
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graay ghost

Well-known member
When my dad died and we were at the funeral home, as soon as the funeral director stepped out to do some figures my grandmother (dad's mom) started telling my mother (dad's wife) that she needed to find someone else (to date) right away, and that doing this would be best for her and inevitable. Keep in mind my dad was not even in the ground yet, he was in a freezer in the same building.

There is something very wrong with the people in my life. But I don't know if they follow the same patterns you're describing...
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
Then it is your dad. I'm sorry for your loss.

They aren't necessarily narcissists, yes. There are at least 5 different scenarios I can think of at the moment judging your situation.

This might not be OT. But I'd like to warn you that there is a chance that you're being triangulated. That's just one of the options. I've seen that happen with families in case of the son's passing, especially in those where people value traditional roles of men and women. The mother and the daughter in law need a new person to triangulate. If there is a chance that's you, set your boundaries right away.

I can see how such an offense (and what your grandma said was offensive to your dad) could be directed to narcs that are like the sailor Kitchy mentioned. He was most likely triangulated as a little kid, therefore he learned that's how people act to win people. That's why some of them deliberately do it to divide and conquer.

It could be that the mother is taking revenge by suggesting your mother that over feeling abandoned. Some mothers, those whose children have their Moons challenged by either Saturn and/or Pluto tend to control their children's psyche and feel threatened by their independence, that being the married life.

You see how the sailor had to corrupt her by complaining about other women to make her believe he'll never leave. He did the same with his lovers. That's because he is co-dependent. (Some narcs later use that strategy to cause sympathy and manipulate to gain whatever) The man I've mentioned, the Cancer Sun hasn't dated anyone for years. The gf won't allow it. She's getting married soon, but, as soon as he meets a woman, any woman, not just a potential partner, he reports that to her and then they attack the woman. He's an emotional slave. And now she's joined some relationship support group and she let everyone know she enjoys being beaten during intercourse. That's her corrupting him, telling him he'll get to get back at his mom on her body. Freud has gone to heaven for sure! I can't wait to see how things will develop between those two.

All of those 7 subjects had narcissistic mothers and gfs/wives, except for the one that died. He developed schizophrenia as a teen.

Narcs don't understand Venus, so they misuse her energy. They are always jealous and envious. One thing you'll notice about them all is how they can go on and on about the magnificence of their children for hours, for example. They need to weigh out two opposites, so they'll spend the same amount of time talking badly about other people always only in comparison to themselves. The majority of them don't really have anything to be proud for, so they need to put others down to feel appreciated instead.

I'm not saying defending your mom in case of offense or sharing her opinion is wrong if she's right, in that case, please do. Maybe your grandma is just supportive of your mom.

In any case, I believe it's best to find happiness away from them.
 
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ALRESCHA

Well-known member
Thank you very much for sharing! That does sound like something a narc does, comparing people like that to make them compete to feel appreciated. The golden child is always happy about that. I hope none of your siblings turned into one in those circumstances.

We can measure the progress of the illness in percentages. I'll read the chart and see what questions I have to make sure if she was one or not and to what degree.
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
Like I said, triangulation is a typical Pluto conspiracy, and she was fairly manipulative and cunning, but it seems to me like she couldn't have controlled it as easily as the others who have their Suns creating enemies to define identity do. She didn't do it out of her own will with a purpose and a long-term goal, for the lack of better description. I believe all manipulators are narcissists, but she isn't your typical one. It's like she never got a handle of keeping all her lids closed at the same time and she applied the pattern to her children's upbringing. At times she didn't seem to understand how to, and at times she was bored and curious.

There is a Mars - Psyche - Pluto yod and a pretty insecure Moon and ascendant who got the people to do the work for her and she manipulated to organize them and never allowed them to see how they served her in order to instantly feel secure.

Here is the best description I've found yet, perhaps you'll find the answer if she was one http://www.thespiritualeclectic.com/2010/08/22/the-relationship-between-empaths-and-narcissists/
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
SORRY! for being late to the ball game and coming with no idea, but here's what I've been thinking about.

General Narcissistic Traits--

Magical Thinking
Arrogance
Envy
Entitlement
Exploitation
Lack Boundaries
Shame-based personaltiy
Rejection of the Real Self in exchange for a beholded false self
Narcissistic Supply - Attention, adulation, affection, praise, etc... (Self-esteem regulation)


Heres some placement ideas for Narcissism

Narcissus (37117)
You can tell by the name..Basically if this astroid touches something personal in your chart, or something personal in another persons chart, then you'll be narcissistic.

Echo (60)
Echo represents giving yourself away to others. Your personality is "echoed" in another person. Echo shows narcissism because she is essentially rejecting her real self by craving affection and love from another person to feed her false self.
So if echo touches something personal, could also be narcissistic, but an inverted narcissism

Zodiac Signs
I don't think zodiac signs determine if someone is narcissistic really, but it's something to think about.

Aquarius - Sun in the 11th
detachment
associated with the god complex ("I'm above all or special")
genius or intelligent - triggers the "above all"
opposite of Leo, an outward friendship rather than inner. Focusing on your outer world means you don't have to get deep or in intimacy; easy narcissistic supply, especially by doing charity or performing in large groups and organizations

Libra - Sun in the 7th
similar to echo... Libra seems to be a little fake--shaping themselves just so they can be liked or have friendships--rejecting the true self

Aspects
North Node conjunct Sun
North node is agressive and wants to take shortcuts
The north node is destiny and isn't achieved until later, so the person could develop narcissism I guess

VENUS-PLUTO
This aspect seems to be the most influencial in determining narcissism. Usually narcissist aren't found unless you are in a relationship with one
Venus is about relationships of course and when aspect by pluto it triggers insecurities and or a sense of rejection either in yourself or in relationships bringing our defense mechanisms such as narcissism.

I've seen Venus Pluto and Pluto in general come up a bit
In a personal relationship where I accused someone of being a narcissist we had this as an EXACT negative aspect

And astrologers with these websites have claimed so that pluto or venus/pluto mean narcissism

These websites claim that Pluto has a huge influence regarding narcissism
http://www.thespiritualeclectic.com/...-in-the-stars/

http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/na...elf-rejection/

http://angstoic.com/2015/03/pluto-and-narcissism/


Lastly as my personal opinions
Neptune-Sun Aspect and Pluto-Sun or Moon

Narcissists are extremely delusional and lack boundaries. Similar to Neptune and Sun lacking boundaries and being aware of their ego.
This aspect has a lot to do with imagination and wanting to live the grander and more glamorized life. Like a narcissist and their fantasies

Pluto-Sun, Pluto-Moon triggers a need to be powerful and manipulative or in control because of some underlying fear, especially fear of intimacy


I think it's extremely important to note that people who are selfish aren't narcissistic. They have to reject their true self.

So like a Leo wouldn't really be narcissistic because they are very good at expressing themselves from the heart and being who they are. Sun signs in general shouldn't determine narcissism.
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
SORRY! for being late to the ball game and coming with no idea, but here's what I've been thinking about.

General Narcissistic Traits--

Magical Thinking
Arrogance
Envy
Entitlement
Exploitation
Lack Boundaries
Shame-based personaltiy
Rejection of the Real Self in exchange for a beholded false self
Narcissistic Supply - Attention, adulation, affection, praise, etc... (Self-esteem regulation)


Heres some placement ideas for Narcissism

Narcissus (37117)
You can tell by the name..Basically if this astroid touches something personal in your chart, or something personal in another persons chart, then you'll be narcissistic.

Echo (60)
Echo represents giving yourself away to others. Your personality is "echoed" in another person. Echo shows narcissism because she is essentially rejecting her real self by craving affection and love from another person to feed her false self.
So if echo touches something personal, could also be narcissistic, but an inverted narcissism

Zodiac Signs
I don't think zodiac signs determine if someone is narcissistic really, but it's something to think about.

Aquarius - Sun in the 11th
detachment
associated with the god complex ("I'm above all or special")
genius or intelligent - triggers the "above all"
opposite of Leo, an outward friendship rather than inner. Focusing on your outer world means you don't have to get deep or in intimacy; easy narcissistic supply, especially by doing charity or performing in large groups and organizations

Libra - Sun in the 7th
similar to echo... Libra seems to be a little fake--shaping themselves just so they can be liked or have friendships--rejecting the true self

Aspects
North Node conjunct Sun
North node is agressive and wants to take shortcuts
The north node is destiny and isn't achieved until later, so the person could develop narcissism I guess

VENUS-PLUTO
This aspect seems to be the most influencial in determining narcissism. Usually narcissist aren't found unless you are in a relationship with one
Venus is about relationships of course and when aspect by pluto it triggers insecurities and or a sense of rejection either in yourself or in relationships bringing our defense mechanisms such as narcissism.

I've seen Venus Pluto and Pluto in general come up a bit
In a personal relationship where I accused someone of being a narcissist we had this as an EXACT negative aspect

And astrologers with these websites have claimed so that pluto or venus/pluto mean narcissism

These websites claim that Pluto has a huge influence regarding narcissism
http://www.thespiritualeclectic.com/...-in-the-stars/

http://www.elsaelsa.com/astrology/na...elf-rejection/

http://angstoic.com/2015/03/pluto-and-narcissism/


Lastly as my personal opinions
Neptune-Sun Aspect and Pluto-Sun or Moon

Narcissists are extremely delusional and lack boundaries. Similar to Neptune and Sun lacking boundaries and being aware of their ego.
This aspect has a lot to do with imagination and wanting to live the grander and more glamorized life. Like a narcissist and their fantasies

Pluto-Sun, Pluto-Moon triggers a need to be powerful and manipulative or in control because of some underlying fear, especially fear of intimacy


I think it's extremely important to note that people who are selfish aren't narcissistic. They have to reject their true self.

So like a Leo wouldn't really be narcissistic because they are very good at expressing themselves from the heart and being who they are. Sun signs in general shouldn't determine narcissism.

Thank you very much for your insight! I'm sorry if you got the wrong impression, and I've already said nothing here can be about the Sun signs, but, the fact is that the narcissitic traits are certainly the flaws of the Leo energy. (that doesn't necessarily mean the Leo Sun) I've been studying narcissism for over 4 years now. 100% of the individuals whose charts I've inspected, and I'm counting the charts that have arrived since I've started the thread, and I'm talking coverts, have prominent Leo/5th house/the Sun.

When I first started the research on the matter, I expected the Suns to be in a harsh aspect to Neptune in a number of them. That wasn't the case, but I am certain that aspect could mean the individual has to deal with the narc situation, either as the bully or the bullied.

I'll try to find the website that explained the illness in a way children could understand what it is. I remember it had tables and neon colours, but that was about 3 years ago.

Here's the definition

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy.

More, briefly:
...individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder also crave attention from others,
they usually want praise for their "superiority," ...

Diagnostic criteria

(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or highstatus people (or institutions)

(4) requires excessive admiration

(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

https://justines2010blog.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dsm-iv.pdf

I do not believe in such thing as evil charts. A baby is just a baby. However, the map of the human experience that develops with age the chart is is not the same for anyone. Labeling a person violent, for example, just because they have Aries ASC and Mars squaring Uranus, for example is ridiculous. I've seen people do that with the charts of the domestic violence victims. There are plenty of decent people with personal planets Algol conjunctions too.

I happen to have an exact Mercury-Narcissus conjunction. Mercury rules my 1st and 10th houses and is in my 3rd house. It is squaring the vertex and pulling the monsters towards me. I have a narcissistic father who tried to make me a golden child when I was little and made my brother one when I opposed him instead. I've had to deal with the situation in my classes, at home, online, at work. And yes, I've been tested negative for the illness.

So saying that basically someone is a narcissist just because they have a conjunction is much like the inquisition, exactly what we said this thread will not be about. Whoever is using astrology to demonize people has an issue.
 
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ALRESCHA

Well-known member
Having inspected the chart, I've concluded that there is a possibility that the person is cunning and manipulative since their aspects show certain abilities. If you are not sure what NPD is, and I can't find the website, here is a wonderful text that woke me up to it: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
Please study it and further analyse the behavior to determine if the subject is ill.
I can look at the synastry chart if you'd like :happy:
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
Having inspected the chart, I've concluded that there is a possibility that the person is cunning and manipulative since their aspects show certain abilities. If you are not sure what NPD is, and I can't find the website, here is a wonderful text that woke me up to it: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html
Please study it and further analyse the behavior to determine if the subject is ill.
I can look at the synastry chart if you'd like :happy:

http://prntscr.com/azsrfr <--- Synastry chart of his and my chart

http://prntscr.com/azsss8 <--- my chart itself

That would be so awesome if you look at the synastry chart and tell me what's going on!

BTW, I'm wondering if I could be a narcissist. I think I could be more manipulative than he is, but I'm not sure about narcissism.

And I'm sorry for using Sun signs or just saying that people who have certain aspects are narcissistic; I was just saying them as a food for thought. Especially the sun signs. I don't think someone can be narcissistic by just looking at the sun sign haha.

I think I understand Narcissim pretty well, but thanks for the texts anyway :)
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
http://prntscr.com/azsrfr <--- Synastry chart of his and my chart

http://prntscr.com/azsss8 <--- my chart itself

That would be so awesome if you look at the synastry chart and tell me what's going on!

BTW, I'm wondering if I could be a narcissist. I think I could be more manipulative than he is, but I'm not sure about narcissism.

And I'm sorry for using Sun signs or just saying that people who have certain aspects are narcissistic; I was just saying them as a food for thought. Especially the sun signs. I don't think someone can be narcissistic by just looking at the sun sign haha.

I think I understand Narcissim pretty well, but thanks for the texts anyway :)

How come you're not sure if he is a narc then :happy:

Go get tested at a psychiatrists office :) But narcs don't often seem to ask themselves if there's something wrong with them. :wink:

And just inspecting the chart and finding any placement isn't enough to tell if a person is evil, including any placement or aspect, especially the asteroids, not just the Sun sign. Every moment is a blessing, there's no such thing as evil charts. It is the matter of understanding the context as a good man put it, the latest So90Pl I've met.

I'll have a look, but I won't get deep into it, as that would be off topic.
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
How come you're not sure if he is a narc then :happy:

Go get tested at a psychiatrists office :) But narcs don't often seem to ask themselves if there's something wrong with them. :wink:

And just inspecting the chart and finding any placement isn't enough to tell if a person is evil, including any placement or aspect, especially the asteroids, not just the Sun sign. Every moment is a blessing, there's no such thing as evil charts. It is the matter of understanding the context as a good man put it, the latest So90Pl I've met.

I'll have a look, but I won't get deep into it, as that would be off topic.

Well I'm not sure because I've never met a narcissist before. I need to like see what one actually is like. I'm no psychologist!!! I could diagnose people narcissists right and left and be a crazy person. He's also been an online friend, so I've never really seen him for who he was, but he had a huge impact for me online and it felt like we knew each other really well.

I can't get tested for that; what if I got tested positive? Sometimes people get diagnosed for things they're not and I don't want that to be me.

Thanks for checking out the charts though! Really appreciated. And I'm not trying to say if someone is evil for placements, I'm just talking I guess.
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
You are still very young and therefore able to correct your personality traits if there are any that could be harmful to your development and your environment, should you have any. And a number of tests are always run when it comes to such diagnoses to make sure.

It is mandatory in my country for all people ages 6 and older to see psychologists at certain points in their lives, and the statistics show that to be beneficial to the general mental health. Nothing scary about mental hygiene. It is also normal to have different dopamine activity at your age, so no worries. I suggest you embrace your adorable Moon when you're ready!

It is essential to check and educate everyone on the illness, I believe, because it may be too late if you start living with a Cluster B. It is fairly easy to recognize one, as the mechanism of the condition is quite simple, be a psychologist or not, and that's fortunate, I've met a number of women who escaped and ended their bad relationships on time.

I cannot tell if a person is ill just by looking at the chart, I'm no longer sure what the purpose of the synastry inspection should be then, please explain, as I would like to help. I urge the people to explain the reasons of their judgement when they send the charts and explain the context of the person's life. You understand very well what narcissism is, but you don't know what it is. You would like to know if he is one, but you can't diagnose him? I'm no psychologist either, so I shouldn't diagnose anyone either. What is your question? :)
 

AppLeo

Well-known member
You are still very young and therefore able to correct your personality traits if there are any that could be harmful to your development and your environment, should you have any. And a number of tests are always run when it comes to such diagnoses to make sure.

It is mandatory in my country for all people ages 6 and older to see psychologists at certain points in their lives, and the statistics show that to be beneficial to the general mental health. Nothing scary about mental hygiene. It is also normal to have different dopamine activity at your age, so no worries. I suggest you embrace your adorable Moon when you're ready!

It is essential to check and educate everyone on the illness, I believe, because it may be too late if you start living with a Cluster B. It is fairly easy to recognize one, as the mechanism of the condition is quite simple, be a psychologist or not, and that's fortunate, I've met a number of women who escaped and ended their bad relationships on time.

I cannot tell if a person is ill just by looking at the chart, I'm no longer sure what the purpose of the synastry inspection should be then, please explain, as I would like to help. I urge the people to explain the reasons of their judgement when they send the charts and explain the context of the person's life. You understand very well what narcissism is, but you don't know what it is. You would like to know if he is one, but you can't diagnose him? I'm no psychologist either, so I shouldn't diagnose anyone either. What is your question? :)

I'm not sure what the synastry inspection should be either :lol:. I was just wondering if narcissism could be found in our charts or in our relationship, but you said that you can't really determine if someone is ill from a chart, which I do agree with. So i have no question. Thanks for noticing my Moon, though! :joyful:
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
I'm not sure what the synastry inspection should be either :lol:. I was just wondering if narcissism could be found in our charts or in our relationship, but you said that you can't really determine if someone is ill from a chart, which I do agree with. So i have no question. Thanks for noticing my Moon, though! :joyful:

Like we agreed, no placement can be evil, therefore we can't tell. We can determine the probability at which the person is likely to be the bully or the bullied at some point in their lives reading their charts.

So, it is a matter of probability. What my research is about is finding the lowest common denominator in coverts to determine a bad time to have a baby so that the baby doesn't have to meet the challenge of fighting a narc/being one. Inspecting the charts should be combined with the subjects behavioral patterns analyses. And I'm working on obtaining the certificate that'll allow me to officially do so.

My own karma is that of the Sun, so I am looking to heal it in my family. Interestingly, heart familial diseases are common in a family that has a great number of individuals who are coverts.

Please stay safe and talk to your parents about your online interaction with people regularly and openly.

Have a nice day. :)
 

Eleanor D

Member
A very interesting thread indeed. This coincides with some research I've begun within a single family line which has mulitple generations characterised by abuse of power. I have started examining charts for the generations born in the 20s and the 40s-early 60s. These charts powerfully illustrate how the abused become the abusers.

The following chart belongs to one pivotal member of this family group - recently deceased - who was thought to suffer from extreme narcissistic personality disorder. She was a powerful woman; brilliant, rebellious - spellbinding to some. This woman was the - quite possibly illegitimate - daughter of a woman from a powerful, deeply religious family. At birth she was placed in a convent with no contact from her mother. She nearly died there. At age 5, her mother came to collect her with a man she said was her father. This man beat and humiliated her until she left home. The man who was probably her real father, a politician, attempted to communicate with her, but was blocked. It is little wonder she suffered from a personality disorder. How can someone overcome such appalling neglect and abuse, and a chart such as this? It is said that our mission in this lifetime is to transmute negative situations and attributes and to become a force for good. But I wonder how such a thing is possible when a person is dealt with a hand such as this?

I'm new to this forum, and useless with computers, but I will attempt to attach her chart below:

Jd.gif
 

ALRESCHA

Well-known member
I have been thinking about this chart and I still concluded the same thing. I can see how that person is actually equipped with thinking and feeling patterns to understand the situation and forgive and rise from the experience. Every abused person is. But they CHOOSE to turn narcs instead. I don't judge them, because I've never experienced physical abuse, so I have no right, but I don't think anything justifies narcissism.

I have a theory about the 12th house role in this case.

I'd like to know what other things you've found :) I've noticed that there are years that are particularly critical because many subjects are born within a couple of months the same year. 1977 Arieses for example.
 
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Dubyadude1986

Well-known member
hmm. Have any of you found any patterns with the abused or abusers nodes? Any pattern of nodes being in the same house, degree, or house for family members?
 
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ALRESCHA

Well-known member
No, the nodes are different. There should be one that'll be discovered sooner or later. :) Pluto, the house she occupies in the narcs chart shows the area they attack in their victims. I'm 100% sure about that.

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks should be done with the enablers too.
 
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