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  #501  
Unread 10-16-2013, 04:45 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

These strictures appear pretty much for the first time with Bonatti in the 12th century (although Ibn Ezra warns about Moon Void of Course earlier in that century) We find no strictures in earlier authors (even with Ibn Ezra except for the VOC Moon stricture) going back to Sahl, Massalah, Abu Mashar, al-Biruni, al-Kindi, etc (nor do we find any equivalent strictures in the Vedic prashna literature going back to the 6th century origins of "horary")
However, simply because the originators did or didn't follow something, does not mean that later practitioners might not have made important new discoveries, leading to a better or more successful practice-maybe Bonatti and later practitioners realized a more successful way to practice, than the originators of horary had done! Not for me to say, although I don't follow these later considerations regarding judgement, because (for me) they add (what I consider to be) unnecessary complications to an already over-complicated methodology (standard horary practice) But that is nothing more than my personal opinion!

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  #502  
Unread 10-17-2013, 09:24 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
One wonders if Paul was familiar with the two books when he made those statements. l
Before personally requesting the site owner pwadm that his account be formally closed
Paul began by saying he had not read
Karen Hamaker-Zondag but then edited his post to include the fact
that he then that day had just reviewed Karen Hamaker-Zondag's book which he initially read many years ago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
I cannot speak for KHZ as I have not read her book, but if she disagrees with the greater tradition, then I do think we can say "she's wrong"
if of course we assume the opinion she's giving is to convey the tradition
and not pretending to be something she plucked out of the air as her own invention
.

EDIT
I quickly checked KHZ's understanding of reception and whatever it is it doesn't follow the tradition and either sources someone who got confused from Lilly or she herself does.

In any event I don't think KHZ's book should be taken as an authority on Horary and its wider tradition
So when it is said that Karen Hamaker-Zondag sources include Al-Biruni, Bonatti et al Paul has re-read Karen Hamaker-Zondag and found that her understanding does not follow the tradition and Karen Hamaker-Zondag therefore either sourced a writer who got confused with Lilly - or Karen Hamaker-Zondag was herself confused by Lilly's ideas
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Barclay was one of the early rescusitators of horary astrology, and her historical research was extensive. Her sources include Al-Biruni, Bonatti, Coley, Culpepper, Lilly plus Hellenistic astrologers whose works pre-dated the development of horary and traditional astrologers better known for other branches.

Karen Hamaker-Zondag's book is much more streamlined, but appears to agree with Barclay. More to the point, these women reported highly accurate results with their methods. Do we quarrel with success merely because they are "modern"? Seriously? In a field as tradition-bound as horary?

Both authors allow exceptions, or, more importantly, they explain how to read a chart when there is no point in going beyond step one. But how many wannabe death predictors are familiar with them?

Suffice it to say that the positions I expressed are those of widely respected experts whose works are published and available for discussion-- and who themselves based their textbooks on the works of traditional astrologers. If these authors disagree with a highly talented, well-read yet amateur(so far as I know) astrologer; this isn't an argument solidly in favour of the latter. For one thing, the authors I cited had far more extensive professional consulting practices prior to writing their textbooks.

Either we assume they were lying, or else we believe them that their methods produced superior results--- something hard to come by on an astrology Forum
As Paul explained, before he left the forum, that Karen Hamaker-Zondag and Barclay were both relying on other sources and not inventing anything because they were using very specific terms which have their roots in traditional astrology - for example 'reception'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_ View Post
We know that KHZ and Barclay are relying on other sources and are not inventing anything - we know this as they are using very specific terms which have their roots in the tradition (like, say, 'reception' or are referencing older authors or their opinions).

Now whilst on some universal way we must accept that all such opinions are subjective, the idea that one person relaying another's information is subjective is very limited.

Lilly and Bonatti etc. actually said certain things,

if I said he Lilly said something which he didn't, we can't retort with "well it's subjective what he said"
because it isn't,
of course I may interpret what he says one way and you another.
But again when we look to Lilly's actual examples we may well see that actually one person is 'right' and another 'wrong'.


It is from this and from the entire tradition - which KHZ and Barclay may not have been aware -
that we can now give more definitive responses not to what is Objectively Right
but rather
what is more inline with the tradition of astrology that these authors are drawing from
and what is not
.

So it is not like all opinions are equal here
- when we know that they are drawing on the tradition we only need to examine that tradition to see if they got it right or wrong,
and we have a LOT more information today than Barclay did when she wrote her book.


Just as Barclay sources and references back to Lilly,
so too does Lilly reference back to the likes of, say Bonatti who goes back to Sahl and so on,
and unlike in Barclay's time,
we now have easily available to us all those books that all those authors were using themselves
.
Clearly Barclay lacked the information we now have


Today, translations of original astrological ancient works are widely available

For example
http://www.projecthindsight.com/products/index.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Different astrologers seem to read "strictures" against judgment differently, ranging from real prohibitions to cautionary advisories, to ignoring them all together. Which is precisely my point. In a matter as crucial as death prediction, on what basis would amateurs confidently assume that they don't matter? To me, this is like an ice skater on a lake confidently assuming that a "Danger: Thin Ice" sign is irrelevant.

If anything, it seems to be a very recent interpretation that these strictures don't matter at all. A more antique perspective was Proceed With Caution. An earlier 20th Century consideration seems to be that the strictures operated as prohibitions-- yet with interpretive meaning and identifiable exceptions notwithstanding.

You may recall fastlane69's question with a late degree ascendant. The stricture here is that the events are past the point where the querent can affect them-- and indeed, he had previously answered his own question-- another stricture.

Bob Zemco's take is at:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=38273

This is a really interesting article, written by an author who examined Lilly's notebooks as well as his published work. Lilly relied heavily on planetary hours and querent's physical appearance: suggesting that neo-traditional astrology has equally streamlined its strictures.

http://www.horary.com/sward/Consids.html
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  #503  
Unread 10-18-2013, 03:32 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

JA, I recommend that you read these two books. Then we'll talk.

So is Paul now your expert? Barclay, in particular has an extensive bibliography that includes traditional sources. On another thread, should you choose to start one, I can go into Barclay's interpretation of reception, which does not vary from other sources, so far as I can determine. We could also discuss Al-Biruni and Bonatti; but since I know how eager you are to stop off-topic comments, I will look forward to another thread on them, should you care to start it.

I don't see the morality of death prediction as the focus of your latest post.
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Last edited by waybread; 10-18-2013 at 03:37 AM.
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  #504  
Unread 10-18-2013, 05:14 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
JA, I recommend that you read these two books. Then we'll talk
Paul has already had this conversation with you
anyone reading this thread has read that conversation as well

I recommend you read the sources of the horary methods that inspired Karen Hamaker-Zondag and without which her book could not have been written

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So is Paul now your expert?
Paul is Moderator on Skyscript Horary Forum
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Barclay, in particular has an extensive bibliography that includes traditional sources. On another thread, should you choose to start one, I can go into Barclay's interpretation of reception, which does not vary from other sources, so far as I can determine. We could also discuss Al-Biruni and Bonatti; but since I know how eager you are to stop off-topic comments, I will look forward to another thread on them, should you care to start it.

I don't see the morality of death prediction as the focus of your latest post.
The morality of death prediction is a matter for individual astrologers to decide for themselves
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  #505  
Unread 08-06-2014, 12:48 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Death was exactly predicted by Rome Emperor Nero. Astrologer had some special Formula, when he was going to die (to be killed). As he knew that Senat was going to kill him the day, he went early in the morning out of Rome with his soldiers and killed himself.

I have those Charts, but to study time of death is not good for me and less for other people. It has no sense and is not ethic at all.
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  #506  
Unread 02-26-2015, 07:48 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

how can you feel that being alive makes sense, when you know when are you gonna die? knowing that would be to your life what a bunch of dark clouds is to a solar eclipse
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  #507  
Unread 02-26-2015, 08:50 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by GemaaaSpirit View Post

how can you feel that being alive makes sense, when you know when are you gonna die?

knowing that would be to your life what a bunch of dark clouds is to a solar eclipse
For many people, simply being aware that death is inevitable, is depressing

fine-tuning that awareness of the inevitability of death
to a more 'exact date' makes little difference
death is inevitable

In any event,
due to advances in modern medicine
then
rather than being specific
these techniques are simply useful in highlighting times when one is advised to take extra care
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  #508  
Unread 02-26-2015, 10:27 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

i actually agree, i feel its about directing that instinctive fear of dying towards something else instead of just pushing it back from your conciousness.., but knowing a precise date is still scaary as hell
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  #509  
Unread 02-26-2015, 11:31 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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i actually agree, i feel its about directing that instinctive fear of dying towards something else instead of just pushing it back from your conciousness..,
but knowing a precise date is still scaary as hell
Doctors are not criticised for predicting death within a certain time-limit
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  #510  
Unread 02-27-2015, 12:38 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
fine-tuning that awareness of the inevitability of death
to a more 'exact date' makes little difference
death is inevitable
Pretty much this. It's going to happen to you. And me. And everyone else alive. Even if nobody predicts it.
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  #511  
Unread 02-27-2015, 01:09 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Venus View Post
Do you think it is morally acceptable to predict death for a client? (assuming that they asked)


If your answer is no because of the uncertainty of death, would your answer be the same if you found a surefire technique?


Imagine that you stumbled across something in the chart of a loved one that indicated a very likely time for their death. What would you do with this information? Would you tell the person or keep it to yourself?

How would you refrain from letting that "date" worry you, especially if you kept it to yourself?
A professional ethical astrologer will not address the issue of a client's or anyone else's demise as it violates the code of conduct.

There may be a surefire technique but as an astrologer I would never address the issue and I have been asked many times. Not many can deal with having a certain date for their death if they are not terminally ill for instance. There are many points in our lives when we may depart and for some reason do not. I believe we all have a contract and when the time is right, we depart.

There may be times when we are in danger and can avoid certain circumstances but to inform another person of that, we have to be very sure. If I feel that steps can be taken to avoid being vulnerable to violence or accident or whatever it may be, then I would suggest the person take avoidance measures if it is within their control to do so.

Sometimes I wish I knew for myself as I am a believer in life eternal and that we just pass on and that I could spend my money knowing that it does not have to last for decades. I am not the least bit afraid of "death". But really, do I want to know?

I can get a pretty good idea of when it may happen but it would take a lot of calculation into the future. I have an idea of the manner of "death" but again wont know until I have departed and looking back from the other side.
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  #512  
Unread 02-27-2015, 01:47 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Claire, I think you'll find that in most traditional astrology, 'death predictions' are actually 'predictions to keep you alive as long as possible'.

There's been stuff in my own chart that could easily have killed me a few times up until now. The last one, unfortunately, all I could do was to be careful with money because I knew if I lived there was going to be a lengthy hospital stay, so I'd better get the bills paid for a few months before it happened.

But oftentimes it's a matter of someone getting medical attention early, not having surgery on the wrong date (we don't control that much in most countries, but it's amazing how many times, especially in the case of seriously ill chldren, the surgery is scheduled for the worst time possible), or avoiding activities during a certain period - if it looks like your client is going to have an accident on water, then don't go boating for the next three months or whatever.

What pains me is that the truth of it has often come out after the fact - a woman who didn't go to a gynaecologist when I suggested wrote to me two years later after a complete hysterectomy with full blown cancer, another client didn't die on the water but suffered serious injuries requiring years of physical rehab.

I think I have a pretty good bedside manner when it comes to these things, and I certainly make every attempt not to be unduly alarmist, but how it works out really makes you wonder at times.
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  #513  
Unread 12-16-2020, 11:08 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I am so glad that someone posted this question.

Death is very much a part of life, despite the fact that it is a very unpopular subject for some people.

Everyone deals with death differently and I think it's very important that there are astrologers willing to look at it. If someone doesn't want to know, then they don't have to know. But what if knowing helps someone? Again, it's hard for some people to imagine why it would help someone but it's possible.

As someone who has many a difficult pluto aspect, I have been around a lot of death. I have had to be a caregiver a few times, to close loved ones who were terminal. It would have been nice to know, at least an estimate, when my father was more likely to pass, once he was on hospice. That is a very difficult situation and it's more difficult when you are told by a nurse "he could die tomorrow, he could die next month".

I think that if there are people who seek to know this, then they should be able to consult someone to know. There are still whole cultures of people who are very much comfortable with death. It isn't as shrouded from view in their day-to-day as it is in other countries.

If there are people who have a need, then it is important that there are those willing to explore that and offer answers to their questions. And considering the impact of death, it is, in my opinion, a diservice to not know how to predict such a big, important part of life.

That being said, as any profession surrounding death, it should be done with poise and professionalism and it would be wrong to go around and predicting death for those who don't want to know about it.
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  #514  
Unread 12-18-2020, 05:01 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Carmaela, I haven't seen anybody on this thread who is afraid of death.

I am a senior living in a community with many retirees. Death is a fact of life around here, given the demographics.

If you read back through this thread, you will see the arguments against death prediction.

Death predictions are often wrong. Which helps nobody.

There are major ethical questions. For example, with 3rd party questions, suppose granny in the hospital doesn't want her death to be predicted?

I'm sorry about your dad, but in my universe, it's up to God (however one understands divine consciousness) when a life is to end. Astrology cannot do away with all of your uncertainty.

Spend time with your loved ones. Tell them you love them now. Get your financial affairs in order. Then there will be no urgency associated with death prediction.
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  #515  
Unread 12-18-2020, 11:54 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Hey Waybread,

I think you missed my point entirely. I never suggested that anyone on this thread was afraid of death, only astrologers at large don't seem to want to touch the subject. At least that has been my experience.

My point was that I was thankful that this thread exists and that I had found astrologers willing to talk about it. I'm not afraid of death. My dad was one of MANY people I have lost. Thanks to heavy pluto aspects in my chart, I have had my fair share of experiencing death - close up. I'm actually quite comfortable with it but I find that for many it's still a taboo subject and for the western world, one that people feel should be hidden away from view.

I would also say that I agree that death predecitons can be wrong, so a client would have to take the prediction with a grain of salt.

Thanks.

Last edited by Carmaela26; 12-18-2020 at 11:56 AM.
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  #516  
Unread 12-18-2020, 02:25 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

While I find important that death, be considered an important part of life, and should be discussed, I am not sure if a public forum is the best place for death astrological discussion.

There are many that are curious about the astrology, and that can usually be considered a healthy study. After all, even Lilly has death prediction in his writings.

The problems to me, in a public forum there is too much room for, misunderstanding and the hurt that could be caused inadvertently to, I guess, anyone that could be seeking answers, to questions that without a more intimate knowledge, should maybe not be broached.

In a perfect freethinking world, yes, it should be discussed. But, we aren’t in a perfect world.

I do not discuss death prediction with my peers that ask. I say that yes, it can be done, but that I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to look at that in anyone’s chart. I have had people ask about themselves mostly.

I would fear the power of suggestion.

Asking will I win the lottery is one thing, asking of the lottery of life another.

Not sure what the answer is. Breaks down to rights vs rights.

Liability is a problem too. Public forum, you are not sure who you are talking to, or their motivations.

No easy answer here.
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  #517  
Unread 12-18-2020, 02:37 PM
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I would agree that a public forum is not the place to make an actual prediction for death as it is a very delicate topic and also any prediction should come with disclaimers.
But I think it's good for astrologers to discuss with each other techniques, stories of experience, etc. To at least explore it.
I haven't much knowledge on how to do it myself so I'm glad there is a place to come and learn.
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  #518  
Unread 12-18-2020, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carmaela26 View Post
I would agree that a public forum is not the place to make an actual prediction for death as it is a very delicate topic and also any prediction should come with disclaimers.
But I think it's good for astrologers to discuss with each other techniques, stories of experience, etc. To at least explore it.
I haven't much knowledge on how to do it myself so I'm glad there is a place to come and learn.
I am not so sure. While I would like to agree, cause I do find different subjects interesting, some, maybe are better suited to private, locked discussions with others that are of like mind. There are other avenues available for a subject that could be easily misunderstood.

Back to whose rights are more important, or should be protected. There are probably classes available to learn this, and books.

For those who have an interest, what is the best place to learn about it?

Seriously asking.
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  #519  
Unread 12-19-2020, 03:38 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
I am not so sure. While I would like to agree, cause I do find different subjects interesting, some, maybe are better suited to private, locked discussions with others that are of like mind. There are other avenues available for a subject that could be easily misunderstood.

Back to whose rights are more important, or should be protected. There are probably classes available to learn this, and books.

For those who have an interest, what is the best place to learn about it?

Seriously asking.
Well, one book I don't recommend is Richard Houck, The Astrology of Death. He seriously misjudged the timing and manner of his own death.

Traditional western astrologers made a more serious study of death prediction, but you might want to look into the curious story of Isaac Bickerstaff, a pen name of Jonathan Swift during his lampoon of astrologer John Partridge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Bickerstaff

Death prediction is an accepted part of Vedic astrology, but their methods also leave something to be desired. As in the case of the astrology client who really disliked his death prediction, so he committed suicide. Do we all get the irony?

I've got more arguments, links, and references a ways back in this thread.
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  #520  
Unread 12-19-2020, 09:00 PM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Astrology is not celebrity death pool, it's not a morbid fascination with someone they believe is going to die (astrologers never wish for that to happen), it's like to predict something all people will experience: the end of their lives, on a day and time, hopefully when you lived beyond age 100 and you're not youthful anymore.
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  #521  
Unread 04-21-2021, 01:32 AM
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Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

It's the same thing with being a psychic! I would keep it to myself, if I were the psychic, or astrologer, unless someone asked me upfront! And even then, I might not tell them! It's a very case-by-case scenario!
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  #522  
Unread 12-03-2021, 02:15 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Posts: 74,783
Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


While I find important that death, be considered an important part of life, and should be discussed, I am not sure if a public forum is the best place for death astrological discussion.

There are many that are curious about the astrology, and that can usually be considered a healthy study. After all, even Lilly has death prediction in his writings.

The problems to me, in a public forum there is too much room for, misunderstanding and the hurt that could be caused inadvertently to, I guess, anyone that could be seeking answers, to questions that without a more intimate knowledge, should maybe not be broached.

In a perfect freethinking world, yes, it should be discussed. But, we aren’t in a perfect world.
Ours is also a learning forum
where many members with zero astrological experience
are encouraged to PRACTICE their skills
and so

clearly

because OURS IS AN ONLINE BEGINNERS/AMATEURS ASTROLOGICAL FORUM

then
misunderstandings are rife
for example

IF told on Horary or Natal boards
that future relationship prospects are negligible
a questioner may feel depressed/upset, even suicidal
or
alternatively
IF told that there is a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship
AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCUR in reality
and the questioner then feels depressed/upset, even suicidal


Then

on that basis
in order to
"...prevent harm from depression/feeling upset, even suicidal..."
PERHAPS
all natal as well as horary relationship threads
whether the opinion offered be favorable
or unfavorable
should not be permitted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opal View Post


I do not discuss death prediction with my peers that ask. I say that yes, it can be done, but that I am not knowledgeable enough on the subject to look at that in anyone’s chart. I have had people ask about themselves mostly.

I would fear the power of suggestion.

Asking will I win the lottery is one thing, asking of the lottery of life another.

Not sure what the answer is. Breaks down to rights vs rights.

Liability is a problem too. Public forum, you are not sure who you are talking to, or their motivations.

No easy answer here.

Exactly - on a public forum there is no certainty as to peoples motives
and no certainty as to who one is talking to




.
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Opal (12-04-2021)
  #523  
Unread 12-04-2021, 03:22 AM
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Opal Opal is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Ours is also a learning forum
where many members with zero astrological experience
are encouraged to PRACTICE their skills
and so

clearly

because OURS IS AN ONLINE BEGINNERS/AMATEURS ASTROLOGICAL FORUM

then
misunderstandings are rife
for example

IF told on Horary or Natal boards
that future relationship prospects are negligible
a questioner may feel depressed/upset, even suicidal
or
alternatively
IF told that there is a definite prospect/likelihood of a relationship
AND THEN NO SUCH PROSPECTS OCCUR in reality
and the questioner then feels depressed/upset, even suicidal


Then

on that basis
in order to
"...prevent harm from depression/feeling upset, even suicidal..."
PERHAPS
all natal as well as horary relationship threads
whether the opinion offered be favorable
or unfavorable
should not be permitted

Exactly - on a public forum there is no certainty as to peoples motives
and no certainty as to who one is talking to




.
Thank you JA! Agreed!
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  #524  
Unread 12-05-2021, 05:42 AM
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Bunraku Bunraku is offline
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Join Date: May 2013
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 6,943
Re: Morality of Predicting Death?

I've based my life decisions based on your posts and suggestions. So you all better give me good advice so I can live a good life. Thank you
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  #525  
Unread 12-05-2021, 06:18 AM
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Opal Opal is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunraku View Post
I've based my life decisions based on your posts and suggestions. So you all better give me good advice so I can live a good life. Thank you
Hahahaha!

I’ve got a bridge……

Thanks for the smile!
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