Most elevated planet

obsidianmineral

Well-known member
The Sun takes over and substitutes the planet's influences with its own (SOLAR) influences, and its as if the planet is not in the particular chart-

NOTE: I want to emphasize again that this is MY OWN outlook regarding delineation of a combust planet and it is not followed either in traditional, nor Vedic, nor Modernist astrological doctrine.

But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?
 
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david starling

Well-known member
But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?

Sun/Saturn may be a special case. I think it brings out the best in Saturn like no other matchup can. A transmutation rather than obliteration.
 
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AppLeo

Well-known member
Can someone tell me what my elevated planet is? Is it the moon, pluto, or chiron? Does chiron even count?

astro_2gw_01_chris.70572.39067.jpg
 

Rawiri

Well-known member
Because in combustion the Sun absorbs all of the energy of the planet-that's why if that happens, I use the SUN FOR ALL OF THAT ABSORBED PLANET'S CONNECTIONS IN THE CHART

While not entirely the same thing, Bhavartha Ratnakara has an idea on the same lines when it comes to timing events with dasas and suggests that if planets are with the sun, then the good they cause will actually be absorbed by the Sun and (mostly) occur in the Sun's dasa rather than the respective planets.

With the exception of Mercury, who supposedly will absorb the "good" from the Sun.

I've found it to work nicely with timing (Vimshottari) at least.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
But does the energy of the sun actually change? So if the Sun takes over and the planet is combust, does that mean that the Sun will exert its own solar qualities + the qualities that it got from the other planet?

I mean, the Sun is really powerful and all, but there has to be some influence from the other planet, right? If the Sun is conjunct Saturn, Saturn will be burned out. However, the Sun will take on the qualities of Saturn, right? For example, in said conjunction, would the Sun act 75% solar and 25% saturn?

I believe that the Sun will take on-as a part of its influence-a good portion of the quality of the planet it has absorbed (combust)-good example is the one cited above by 14C regarding Larry King and his combust Mercury: certainly King was a broadcast and news commentator (Mercury affinities) but he was MUCH more than just that-he was politically important, a star, a celebrity, etc etc, which are all Solar affinities.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Can someone tell me what my elevated planet is? Is it the moon, pluto, or chiron? Does chiron even count?

View attachment 66754

Pluto is the most elevated planet (actually planetoid) in your chart. However IF we followed a purely traditionalist approach (excluding the outers) then the Moon would be the most elevated planet. For me, I would consider Pluto to be your most elevated planet.
 

sylph

Well-known member
How much emphasis do traditional astrologers place on the sign, house and aspects to the most elevated planet when analyzing its effect in the native's life? I know it seems like it would probably be a given that one would take all of these factors into account, but I have looked at a few traditional astrology articles on the MEP and I don't remember seeing much about this.

What I guess I'm asking is, do traditional astrologers see the MEP as having a modified influence based on various factors (sign, etc), or is it supposed to act like essentially a dignified/pure expression of itself no matter what?
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
To my understanding, whereas Greco-Roman practitioners gave special attention and consideration to the MEP as such, traditionalists hold that the most elevated planet 's potential influence in the chart is subject to various modifying factors just like any other planet in the chart.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Dr. Farr, I have a logical problem considering Retrograde important (in the Natal-chart ONLY). The Natal-chart is a "snapshot", in which there is no movement in either direction, and is the STATIONARY foundation for the native, and remains so for an entire life-time. Transits and SRs are measured relative to the unchanging Natal-chart configuration. Horary is a different matter, because it's a projection into the future, and Retrograde makes perfect sense for that. I realize nearly everyone is convinced it's an important factor for Natal, but there's no way of proving it, as far as I can tell--Aspects can explain its supposed effects just as well. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about this, just interested in your opinion based on your experience. (Again, Natal only!)
Btw, Moderns can be just as touchy about their own chosen Astrological beliefs as Traditionalists! I tread lightly, even in the Modern Forum.


Ultimately I am undecided about the retrograde status: I do think its valid even from a frozen snap-shot in time perspective, since it represents A STATE of a given planet and not what will happen to that state in the future.
But what kind of a state of the planet does Rx indicate?? Vedic astrology considers it to be a MORE POWERFUL state than if the planet were direct; Western astrology considers it to be a DETRIMENTED STATE favoring the negative/adverse influences of the planet; me? I lean toward the Vedic position of Rx being a more powerful state of the planet, but I also consider the Rx state to be one of self-conflict for the planet, ultimately yielding a rather chaotic net influence of the Rx planet. So ultimately I would look at an Rx state as a detriment, but not as a debility-ie not as a weakening of the planet's influence-but rather as tending to bring out difficulties with the planet, but the planet's influences being increased, not diminished.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Grant Lewi shunned progressions. He said, if they work for you use them but I dont.
His predictive measures are recorded in astrology for the millions.

Personally I use them but I also see his reasoning

I do not use primary or secondary directions (the usual progressions); I use transits, and I also use the simple symbolic progression method of Charles Carter (1 degree advance for every year of life)...I'll also use Pauline profection for a more general indication of trends, and also Solar Returns, but I must admit that I favor Carter's simple symbolic progression method in predicting from the natal...
 

sylph

Well-known member
Both. When I've focused on the asc, it's ruler, moon and it's ruler and Mercury to an extent I've been able to get a good grasp on character without any recourse to the wider horoscope. I've also noticed this in the charts of the people I know. In modern astrology practice, oppositions indicate some distancing with the planet or point that is more "remote". At one point I was in a relationship with a girl who had Mercury opp. Jupiter and Venus opp. Pluto and my chart happens to have both Jupiter and Pluto strains strong.

To the concepts bit, IIRC correctly there are a number of techniques given by different astrologers over the years which mostly gear character delineation toward a few points in the chart and not much else. Lilly's manners takes planets in the 1st house, asc ruler, or any planets that are interacting with the Moon and Mercury to get a handle on personality, Ptolemy chronicled a technique whereby focus was placed primarily on Mercury and Moon, and I think Abu Mashar also focused on the ASC, Moon and Mercury paying much attention to the modality of the points in question.

Traditionally too within the chart, the houses are seen as differentiated areas of life and any planets placed within would be descriptive of that area. While in modern it seems as though the planet signifies the subjective experience that one has regarding a particular area of life. In practice, both reasons often end up aligning.

I don't typically tend to see anything from my chart as being "out there" -- I see it as all part of me. And I would probably feel like this even if I had no knowledge of astrology. But, I definitely have some trouble channeling or expressing energies in (what I view as) the best possible way. None of the planets you mentioned above are ruled by Mars, my most elevated, in my tropical chart; so it would make sense that Mars is somewhat difficult for me.

I have had a lot of violence and hatred directed toward me throughout my life, yet I still don't see this as Mars manifesting as an outside force. But maybe I am putting on the rose-colored Neptune glasses here because it's quite painful to think about. In all honesty though, I think this can be explained by other factors in the chart (not just mine, but in craft94's for example; I don't recall seeing her chart, however I'm wondering if there is some other factor that explains why she might experience Saturn more from the outside rather than in her personal conduct). In other words, I don't know that I can accept the idea that "rulership of X planet is the cause of manifestation within the personality, and non-rulership of X planet is the cause of possible external manifestation." But of course, I greatly appreciate your explanation and sources, and I can see the value in analyzing the personality by these standards. I just think there are other things to consider.

As far as my most elevated, I am either not expressing my Mars at all or I go completely overboard with it. No wonder, with it squaring my Libra ascendant. This is becoming less of a problem as I mature, but earlier in my life I did whatever I could to be viewed as lovable, beautiful, popular, sweet, good -- attractively Venusian, basically. Then when I would have an insane outburst of Mars emotion due to some injustice happening to me, many people would turn against me. Clearly their decision to accept me was dependent solely upon the Libra ASC "mask." I still don't know how to work with this Mars properly and it is admittedly an issue.

I would think, though, that the square to ASC is likely the cause of external problems rather than the lack of Mars rulerships in my chart. I don't know, this is all very subjective I guess. My main inability to accept the rulerships theory is due to the possibility of different sidereal rulerships. This is a particularly big thing for me because Mars becomes sidereal ruler of my Moon. But, then again, MEP seems to be something that is used pretty much only amongst tropical astrologers. I could be completely wrong here, just the impression I've gotten thus far.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
I would agree that the square to the ascending degree is the source of the problems.

Yes relative to what you posted re to tropical vs Vedic outlook-in the Vedic systems the planet with the highest number of degrees in a given sign, gets special consideration regardless of the placement of that planet relative to horizon/mid-heaven.
 
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david starling

Well-known member
Ultimately I am undecided about the retrograde status: I do think its valid even from a frozen snap-shot in time perspective, since it represents A STATE of a given planet and not what will happen to that state in the future.
But what kind of a state of the planet does Rx indicate?? Vedic astrology considers it to be a MORE POWERFUL state than if the planet were direct; Western astrology considers it to be a DETRIMENTED STATE favoring the negative/adverse influences of the planet; me? I lean toward the Vedic position of Rx being a more powerful state of the planet, but I also consider the Rx state to be one of self-conflict for the planet, ultimately yielding a rather chaotic net influence of the Rx planet. So ultimately I would look at an Rx state as a detriment, but not as a debility-ie not as a weakening of the planet's influence-but rather as tending to bring out difficulties with the planet, but the planet's influences being increased, not diminished.

Noticed that during the entire discussion in this Thread, no one has referred to Retrograde as an explanation for anything!
 

detectahead

Well-known member
I do not use primary or secondary directions (the usual progressions); I use transits, and I also use the simple symbolic progression method of Charles Carter (1 degree advance for every year of life)...I'll also use Pauline profection for a more general indication of trends, and also Solar Returns, but I must admit that I favor Carter's simple symbolic progression method in predicting from the natal...

From my own experience and observations over the years I have found that secondary progressions work. I also study patterns in family charts. Just recently the daughter of one of these families starting dating and normally she was a "good time" person who liked hanging with her friends. So, at my next opportunity I looked her chart over. There wasn't anything significant except her Saturn return approaching. Upon doing the progression completely different story. Venus had progressed to exact conjunction to the Asc. Now this is the funny part. The next time I saw her the first words out of her mouth was, and I'm quoting, "I'm in love!" I about fell over.
Primary directions I've looked into even gone as far as doing the calculations by hand which are quite difficult. You need for one the ternary proportional logarithms which I found years ago to calculate the math equations. I have the 2nd edition of AJ Pearce,The Textbook of Astrology which I treasure. He was an amazing man.
There's never enough time in the day.
 

david starling

Well-known member
From my own experience and observations over the years I have found that secondary progressions work. I also study patterns in family charts. Just recently the daughter of one of these families starting dating and normally she was a "good time" person who liked hanging with her friends. So, at my next opportunity I looked her chart over. There wasn't anything significant except her Saturn return approaching. Upon doing the progression completely different story. Venus had progressed to exact conjunction to the Asc. Now this is the funny part. The next time I saw her the first words out of her mouth was, and I'm quoting, "I'm in love!" I about fell over.
Primary directions I've looked into even gone as far as doing the calculations by hand which are quite difficult. You need for one the ternary proportional logarithms which I found years ago to calculate the math equations. I have the 2nd edition of AJ Pearce,The Textbook of Astrology which I treasure. He was an amazing man.
There's never enough time in the day.

Was Venus in a Direct or Retrograde state regarding its Conjuction with the Ascendant? Did the love affair work out for her?
Does it matter if the most elevated Planet is in D. or R. state in the Natal-chart? If so, how would that affect its overall influence?
 

craft94

Well-known member
Noticed that during the entire discussion in this Thread, no one has referred to Retrograde as an explanation for anything!

I mentioned retrograde Venus in response to CT's observation that I don't seem very Venusian despite a double (triple if you include Mercury which is my Asc. ruler) Venus rulership
 
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