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  #1  
Unread 03-30-2014, 06:24 AM
blossomintobeing blossomintobeing is offline
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LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Just read someone describe the 12th house as the house of "self-undoing".

Hm, OK.

I happen to have my Venus and Mars (NOT conjunct), in this house in LEO, both positively aspected (although, Venus is positively aspected by SATURN of all planets). Yah. Lots of juicy soulmate relationships going on, in my dreams ;-)

OK what's of interest here are two things for me:
1) IS THIS REALLY the house of self-undoing and how does this apply to me?
2) What does this mean for my T-Square opposing the "empty leg" in the 7th house... Will I ever find "LOVE"???

Boy, does my soul yearn for it, and this misguided yearning has certainly created some undoing for me, as I am now a mother of a little boy with a very bad match for me that has created a lot of tumult in my life. That booboo is going to take some time to make better... HOWEVER, I know that it will get better over time and with better choices and I have learned A LOT in the process.

Any tips on how I can prevent myself from continuing to make the same mistakes, and am I really doomed in relationships? I certainly hope not, as I need them to complete my T-Square (wink wink), not to mention satisfy some serious soul yearnings (12th house, nudge nudge).

Thanks guys 'n' gals.

<3

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Unread 03-30-2014, 07:19 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

The Twelfth is a dark house.
It holds the personal unconscious -- repressed contents.
It is a house of bondage -- and of liberation.
It may be that to escape the frying pan we leap iinto the fire, or possibly find true freedom.
A house of endings, it symbolizes dissolution in preparation for rebirth into a new cycle.
Here is found the Vale of Tears...mourning, sadness, alienation, the unspeakable.
This is the mansion of adversity, affliction, anxieties (unseen ghosts),captivity, debt (both material and karmic), disease, secret enemies working to undo us, fear, misery and fraud (deception, both by others and by ourselves).

If we consider the above ideas carefully, we can see that this house may engender feelings of powerlessness as we find ourselves somehow at the mercy of others -- or of the hidden aspects of ourselves.

Ghosts, ghouls, demons, witches live here. This is the place of the gas chambers of Auschwitz, the horrors of the Inquisition. It is the Labyrinth of Theseus...and the thread to the upper world may be very tenuous and so hard to find in the darkness. Here in the depths of the mountain, the Precious ring of Gollum -- its power enslaves and destroys.

So...is this the house of Self-undoing? You bet. Suicide is often indicated by planets in this house. Jung said that until the unconscious is made conscious, it will rule us and we will call it fate. This is where we sweep things under the rug in a vain attempt to hide them and banish them from memory.

Can we say anything good about the Twelfth House? Yes we can. But it's a secret.
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Unread 03-30-2014, 07:59 PM
blossomintobeing blossomintobeing is offline
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The Twelfth is a dark house.
It holds the personal unconscious -- repressed contents.
It is a house of bondage -- and of liberation.
It may be that to escape the frying pan we leap iinto the fire, or possibly find true freedom.
A house of endings, it symbolizes dissolution in preparation for rebirth into a new cycle.
Here is found the Vale of Tears...mourning, sadness, alienation, the unspeakable.
This is the mansion of adversity, affliction, anxieties (unseen ghosts),captivity, debt (both material and karmic), disease, secret enemies working to undo us, fear, misery and fraud (deception, both by others and by ourselves).

If we consider the above ideas carefully, we can see that this house may engender feelings of powerlessness as we find ourselves somehow at the mercy of others -- or of the hidden aspects of ourselves.

Ghosts, ghouls, demons, witches live here. This is the place of the gas chambers of Auschwitz, the horrors of the Inquisition. It is the Labyrinth of Theseus...and the thread to the upper world may be very tenuous and so hard to find in the darkness. Here in the depths of the mountain, the Precious ring of Gollum -- its power enslaves and destroys.

So...is this the house of Self-undoing? You bet. Suicide is often indicated by planets in this house. Jung said that until the unconscious is made conscious, it will rule us and we will call it fate. This is where we sweep things under the rug in a vain attempt to hide them and banish them from memory.

Can we say anything good about the Twelfth House? Yes we can. But it's a secret.
Yah, was wondering if there was something positive to say right about halfway through... Wow. Secrets. I have a lot of secrets. and find it painful to share them, but I feel like I have to in order to be known or to share my heart: Venus/Mars. Thanks for all that info... Wondering if you or someone else could illuminate what having Venus and Mars in Leo in this house does to a person?

Wish the mystical could be positively framed. It seems like the house of the mystic, no?
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Unread 03-30-2014, 08:53 PM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Hi. Every house has fortunate and unfortunate manifestations. Certainly (from the point of view of the individual trying to establish some sense of continuity and contentment in this strange and ever-changing world) the 12th house is one the houses where the fortunate manifestations are often less obvious than the unfortunate ones. But the whole point of astrology, as far as I can see, is that it helps us to see both the unfortunate and fortunate possibilities inherent in every symbol, so that we can make more conscious and effective decisions about how to find fulfilment.

The 12th house symbolises, potentially at least, experiences of deep fulfilment, as Rudhyar points out in The Astrological Houses. As Greybeard says, it is defined largely by its position at the end of the cycle. (Although a cycle doesn't really have a beginning and an end, certain points of each astrological cycle resonate with our intuitive sense of what it means to begin anew, and in the house cycle this point, imo, is the ascendant, which means that the 12th house is generally considered to be the last house.) Where the first six houses symbolise experiences of being relatively self-absorbed, the last six houses symbolise experiences of being more conscious of the larger life of which we are part. The two hemicycles (half cycles) feed into one another. In the 12th house we look back on how we have responded to being part of some greater whole, and try to tie up the loose ends so that the next cycle is not contaminated by unresolved issues.

Part of the problem with 12th house placements is that when we have natal planets in this house, the functions represented by those planets are permanently at that phase of the house cycle - permanently porous to unresolved issues floating around in collective consciousness (the 'collective unconscious'). From the very start of life, unresolved issues that resonate with the 12th house planet(s) impress themselves upon the native as things needing to be dealt with before a new beginning can occur. There is a sense of being held in bondage with regard to the planets concerned, but all this may be very unconscious. Thus the label, 'hidden enemies'.

In terms of your Venus and Mars in Leo in the 12th house, one possibility is that your family as a whole had issues around the wholehearted expression (Leo) with regard to desires (Mars) and values (Venus). These zodiacal placements suggest a great appetite for life and for enjoying being oneself. But since they are in the 12th house, this may have been a hidden and frustrated need within your family, and it may have fallen to you to redeem it as part of your contribution to humanity as a whole.

Mars and Venus are generally considered the relationship planets, and this interpretation is fine as far as it goes. Thus, you need relationships in which you can really shine as yourself. If your family had issues around wholehearted self-expression, then they couldn't celebrate your uniqueness in the way you needed them to. And they may have taught you (however subtly) that there is something wrong with having these needs at all. If you are carrying pain around this, it is probably not just your pain but also the pain of your family, imprinted on your consciousness during your childhood. You are perhaps yearning for a relationship which makes you feel special at last, but until you withdraw within and get in touch with the roots of this yearning, this search may continue to lead to your 'undoing', because you will be trying to take a short-cut that life seems to have decided to deny you. If you can redeem this issue, you will find a fulfilment with regard to these planets that others don't even realise is possible. I suppose the 12th is a 'make or break' house in this sense.

I don't know if this will resonate with your experience, but I wanted to try to offer you a more positive view of this part of your chart. If you'd like to respond to this, it would be useful if you can post your whole chart.

Best wishes,
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Unread 03-31-2014, 08:59 AM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Yes, the 12th is a house of mystics and mysticism.

The 12th has its origin, in one point of view, in the 4th. It belongs to the "watery" triad of houses -- 4th, 8th, 12th. All three are unfortunate houses, the 4th being less so. All three are dark houses...they are secret, mysterious, unconscious realms. What's in them is "hard to get at", because it's either in the deep unconscious (beyond reach) or within the personal unconscious (which may be accessible under the right conditions).

Mysticism, as I use the word, implies a belief that God (the Mystery) can be accessed directly by an individual, a subjective perception of the divine beyond the ordinary range of human experience. The divinity can't be explained or reasoned because of its paradoxical and unlimited nature; the mystic attempts to experience the divine directly, through what we might call revelation.

The three water houses are the most concerned with this sort of thing. They are the least attached to "the world". And so all three tend to seek "divine union" in one way or another.

The 12th holds things like isolation...the hermit in his cave, the monk in his monastery...self-sacrifice, martyrdom, abnegation, altruistic dedication to the outcasts of the world (the oppressed, the marginalized, etc.).

One of our problems in this world is found in our categorization of things into "good" and "evil". The original sin (in the Bible) involved eating the frut of the tree of the knowedge of good and evil. Seems to me the student should ask "Why is this made the Original Sin?"... Because, on the cosmic scale, there is no good and evil. It's a human invention. Good means "I like it. It somehow profits me". Evil means "It causes me pain and suffering. It brings loss. I don't like it."

And so with this sort of thinking, we find ourselves bound to "good" and "evil", and fail to see that all things carry within them the seed of their opposite. So we say the 12th House is "evil." And it is if all we are looking at and for is our immediate comfort and happiness.

But it the house is Bondange (prison, handicap, addiction, insanity), then it also must be LIberation. But to become liberated, we must first be enslaved. All houses, planets, signs (astrological symbols....and in truth all things in the universe) have both a positive and constructive aspect intimately connected with a negative, destructive aspect. Shiva, god of destruction, is also the god of creation. All things manifest on a "sliding scale" (an axis with two poles) of "good" and "evil"; the two are not separate.

In overcoming our blindness to this unversal fact -- the bipolar nature of good and evil -- lies the secret to liberation. A mystery fit for the 12th House.

If Venus and Mars are in Leo, and in the 12th, and especially if the cusp of the house is held in that same sign....

Then might it not be that false or unearned pride might be a self-defeating power in the life? And the answer to that might be found in the exercise of magnanimity, of open-handed generosity, of letting one's personal light shine disinterestedly (ouch) for the good of all...and other sorts of Leonine positive manifestations.

The Sun disposes Leo and the planets and houses contained within the sign. So Sun is the first place to look in understanding this configuration in your chart. What is his condition, what does he "say" in your chart? In most cases, you will discover "underlying causes" and "final outcome" in the dispositor of house and planets. Look up the word in your dictionary..."dispose", "disposition", and "determine", "incline", "order"...in order to understand the function of a dispositor. Rulership is of first importance.

Astrology is an art founded upon analogy. Only when you have trained your mind to think in terms of analogy will astrology open itself to your understanding.

Mars is red. So he symbolizes, by analogy, all things that are characteristically red: blood, rust, anger ("seeing red") and all passions (which are "red hot")..............and then, the more direct and obvious analogies carry even more analogies within them.

Fire is ruled by Mars. Oxygen is necessary to combustion. Mars rules oxygen. Blood comes forth from cutting and piercing. All sharp edges and points are ruled by Mars, and things characterized by them, such as swords and needles.

Both Venus and Mars are directly and personally -- and inherently -- concerned with different aspects of sexuality. Mars, who rules penetration, is lord of the phallus and of the aggressive, outwardly active passions. Both are in your 12th house. (Gandhi had a conjunction of these two in Scorpio there -- in the chart I use, which is not the commonly accepted one), and he fought with "lust" all his life. Twelfth House difficulties can often be overcome by sublimation. Gandhi finally tamed his lust through the practice of Brahmacharya, and then had access to that immense power of lust directed toward purposes other than sex.
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Unread 03-31-2014, 11:37 AM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

hello guys
you are discussion a good house.12th house is always a mystery .it plays in abroad travel ,sex relationship,love affair and court cases.it is also considered as bad house like 6th and 8th.
by pt ketan bhargav
http://www.astroketan.com
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Unread 04-01-2014, 01:18 AM
blossomintobeing blossomintobeing is offline
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Then might it not be that false or unearned pride might be a self-defeating power in the life? And the answer to that might be found in the exercise of magnanimity, of open-handed generosity, of letting one's personal light shine disinterestedly (ouch) for the good of all...and other sorts of Leonine positive manifestations.
I was just wondering what you meant when you said "letting one's personal light shine disinterestedly".... that particular phrase didn't compute for me, but then, I have the a slow methodical learning process... not sure if that has something to do with my Mercury in Libra or not...

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The Sun disposes Leo and the planets and houses contained within the sign. So Sun is the first place to look in understanding this configuration in your chart. What is his condition, what does he "say" in your chart? In most cases, you will discover "underlying causes" and "final outcome" in the dispositor of house and planets. Look up the word in your dictionary..."dispose", "disposition", and "determine", "incline", "order"...in order to understand the function of a dispositor. Rulership is of first importance.
My sun is in the 1st house in Virgo conjunct in exact degree to my Ascendant.... ?? I have tried for years to understand what this MEANs and have failed. It is also the focal point of a T-Square, as well as a Singleton (the only earth planet) in my chart...

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Both Venus and Mars are directly and personally -- and inherently -- concerned with different aspects of sexuality. Mars, who rules penetration, is lord of the phallus and of the aggressive, outwardly active passions. Both are in your 12th house.
I have often been able to feel other people's unconscious sexual energy, and it has been a rather "difficult" part of my life, as it can make me immediately uncomfortable and unable to bond or connect, especially if the other person is male, as I know they can feel it too (since I bring it to light somehow with my presence).

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
(Gandhi had a conjunction of these two in Scorpio there -- in the chart I use, which is not the commonly accepted one), and he fought with "lust" all his life. Twelfth House difficulties can often be overcome by sublimation. Gandhi finally tamed his lust through the practice of Brahmacharya, and then had access to that immense power of lust directed toward purposes other than sex.
First: I wonder what chart you use that gives this location of his mars and venus, as in the charts I have seen of his those planets are in his first house.

Second: I have heard that he did not have sex, yes, but has quite a "perverted" sexual history that has been kept under wraps for many years and was recently revealed by a former associate/woman. He would sleep with women naked but never sleep with them, etc. It was a recent article/expose. :\ Interesting, and yes... I agree that sublimating the energy seems to be useful for spiritual energy, as my own energy seems to deplete if I use it.
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Unread 04-01-2014, 01:23 AM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

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Unread 04-01-2014, 03:30 AM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

For Gandhi I use a chart I found in La Astrologia Racional by Adolfo Weiss many years ago. I have worked with the chart a good deal and find it reliable. It was supposedly a chart for Gandhi rectified by an unnamed astrologer. It has Saturn rising a couple/few degrees below the horizon. The chart matches Gandhi's life much more closely than any of the several other charts I've seen published for him.

I even brought it by transit to the incident upon his return to Durban when he was mobbed, and Mars opposing Pluto by transit stand on his horizon at the appropriate time in the afternoon for the event, with Jupiter in the 10th (the police chief's wife) saving his life.

To "read" the Sun...and you can't interpret Venus/Mars/Leo very well without it...you have only to write down each astrological fact pertinent to the Sun with its interpretation/significance, then put them together. This means 1. write down every single astrological condition you notice that involves Sun. 2. write down the significance of each of these as given in textual sources (books, websites) and 3. Develop your own interpretations based on the available material to the extent that your knowledge of astrology allows it,because blindly "sticking to the book" usually fails to paint the true picture. One of the great obstacles to effective delineation of a chart is lack of self-confidence. Just do the best you can. If you want to be effective in astrology you have to go beyond the superficial "readings" books and websites provide and dig deep into the principles underpinning the astrological symbols (e.g., What does Virgo "mean"?... It's a Common sign, an Earth sign, is disposed by Mercury (what's he doing?), is the 6th sign -- the last in the first hemicycle, is a sign of long ascension, etc etc....each of these things holds meaning and affects the way the sign behaves.)

I don't use that idea of "singleton". In my opinion it is in gross error.

But apart from that, your brief outline of the Sun in your chart shows the Sun to be a very powerful figure in your personality. Not only is he dispositor of the 12th configuration, but an imposing figure in the scheme of the whole chart.

I'm just guessing, but I think your chart has a triplex rulership of Sun-Mercury-Venus. Sun is clearly the predominant figure in this triplet by accidental dignity (conj. Asc and focus T-square).

As for "Purpose in Life", astrology aside, your purpose is whatever you are doing at this moment. If you are "called" to save the world, invent the AIDS vaccine, convert the Muslims to Scientology, or paint the barn....you will know. It's what's in front of your nose, and what you love. Back to astrology, the function implied by the whole-chart, its unitary synthesis, shows your purpose. More often than not, our purpose is not grandiose. It requires an entire nation to support a king, and most of that nation are commoners....fishwives and cobblers. Even a dead dog has purpose.

You can be a prophet or a saint if you want to, but I have noticed in my wanderings through history books that most of those guys find their head in a basket one fine day or end up as a barbecue on someone else's platter.

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Unread 04-01-2014, 06:41 AM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Thanks for your description of the 12th house greybeard. I have trouble understanding that house in particular (which seems appropriate, I suppose). Whenever I have a transit to the 12th house, it always seems like that planet's influence is "swallowed up" or goes into some kind of void (I don't have any planets in 12 natally). Your comments are particularly insightful.
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Unread 04-01-2014, 11:18 PM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

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Thanks for your description of the 12th house greybeard. I have trouble understanding that house in particular (which seems appropriate, I suppose). Whenever I have a transit to the 12th house, it always seems like that planet's influence is "swallowed up" or goes into some kind of void (I don't have any planets in 12 natally). Your comments are particularly insightful.
Cheers to that... thanks too for helping me understand this mysterious subject with your descriptions and explanation. Yeah, not sure I really want to be a prophet or a saint just have always had a fervent desire to do something truly meaningful and worthwhile. Like, fervent. Sometimes it makes me feel insane, how strong my desire to manifset a "greater goal" on earth is... Anyway, it all seems to be about relaxing, which 'trying to manifest' anything doesn't achieve... so. Counterintuitive seemingly but all for the best in the grand scheme. Thank you again.
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Unread 04-02-2014, 05:34 PM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
The Twelfth is a dark house.
It holds the personal unconscious -- repressed contents.
It is a house of bondage -- and of liberation.
It may be that to escape the frying pan we leap iinto the fire, or possibly find true freedom.
A house of endings, it symbolizes dissolution in preparation for rebirth into a new cycle.
Here is found the Vale of Tears...mourning, sadness, alienation, the unspeakable.
This is the mansion of adversity, affliction, anxieties (unseen ghosts),captivity, debt (both material and karmic), disease, secret enemies working to undo us, fear, misery and fraud (deception, both by others and by ourselves).

If we consider the above ideas carefully, we can see that this house may engender feelings of powerlessness as we find ourselves somehow at the mercy of others -- or of the hidden aspects of ourselves.

Ghosts, ghouls, demons, witches live here. This is the place of the gas chambers of Auschwitz, the horrors of the Inquisition. It is the Labyrinth of Theseus...and the thread to the upper world may be very tenuous and so hard to find in the darkness. Here in the depths of the mountain, the Precious ring of Gollum -- its power enslaves and destroys.

So...is this the house of Self-undoing? You bet. Suicide is often indicated by planets in this house. Jung said that until the unconscious is made conscious, it will rule us and we will call it fate. This is where we sweep things under the rug in a vain attempt to hide them and banish them from memory.

Can we say anything good about the Twelfth House? Yes we can. But it's a secret.
I really love that explanation and I really love the way you write. That was all true and very poetic. It also inspires me to take a hard look in my own 12hse and meditate what it means for me and those in my life.

Thank you!
S5

To Flapjacks: I feel the same way about my 12th hse too (20degs Libra).....well put!
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Unread 04-20-2014, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
For Gandhi I use a chart I found in La Astrologia Racional by Adolfo Weiss many years ago. I have worked with the chart a good deal and find it reliable. It was supposedly a chart for Gandhi rectified by an unnamed astrologer. It has Saturn rising a couple/few degrees below the horizon. The chart matches Gandhi's life much more closely than any of the several other charts I've seen published for him.

I even brought it by transit to the incident upon his return to Durban when he was mobbed, and Mars opposing Pluto by transit stand on his horizon at the appropriate time in the afternoon for the event, with Jupiter in the 10th (the police chief's wife) saving his life.

To "read" the Sun...and you can't interpret Venus/Mars/Leo very well without it...you have only to write down each astrological fact pertinent to the Sun with its interpretation/significance, then put them together. This means 1. write down every single astrological condition you notice that involves Sun. 2. write down the significance of each of these as given in textual sources (books, websites) and 3. Develop your own interpretations based on the available material to the extent that your knowledge of astrology allows it,because blindly "sticking to the book" usually fails to paint the true picture. One of the great obstacles to effective delineation of a chart is lack of self-confidence. Just do the best you can. If you want to be effective in astrology you have to go beyond the superficial "readings" books and websites provide and dig deep into the principles underpinning the astrological symbols (e.g., What does Virgo "mean"?... It's a Common sign, an Earth sign, is disposed by Mercury (what's he doing?), is the 6th sign -- the last in the first hemicycle, is a sign of long ascension, etc etc....each of these things holds meaning and affects the way the sign behaves.)

I don't use that idea of "singleton". In my opinion it is in gross error.

But apart from that, your brief outline of the Sun in your chart shows the Sun to be a very powerful figure in your personality. Not only is he dispositor of the 12th configuration, but an imposing figure in the scheme of the whole chart.

I'm just guessing, but I think your chart has a triplex rulership of Sun-Mercury-Venus. Sun is clearly the predominant figure in this triplet by accidental dignity (conj. Asc and focus T-square).

As for "Purpose in Life", astrology aside, your purpose is whatever you are doing at this moment. If you are "called" to save the world, invent the AIDS vaccine, convert the Muslims to Scientology, or paint the barn....you will know. It's what's in front of your nose, and what you love. Back to astrology, the function implied by the whole-chart, its unitary synthesis, shows your purpose. More often than not, our purpose is not grandiose. It requires an entire nation to support a king, and most of that nation are commoners....fishwives and cobblers. Even a dead dog has purpose.

You can be a prophet or a saint if you want to, but I have noticed in my wanderings through history books that most of those guys find their head in a basket one fine day or end up as a barbecue on someone else's platter.
Just what I was looking for! GB you are my hero. Plz share Gandhi's chart. I am working with a 12th house stellium in Scorpio. Mars/venus/sun/Uranus in it. Plz discuss Gandhi's .

Love the discussion & Miquar's input is fantastic!
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Unread 04-20-2014, 08:04 PM
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Re: LOVE, SELF-UNDOING and the Mystical 12th HOUSE

Try 2 Oct 1869, 1019 LMT (GMT +4:38:24=05:40:36 GMT), Porbandar, 21N38, 69E36 -- 8 Sagittarius 23 rises.

Last edited by greybeard; 04-20-2014 at 08:13 PM.
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