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Medical Astrology Astrological diagnoses and other health issues are discussed here. Given that there are so many outer and inner influences on one's health (alimentation, sports, medication, past medical antecedents, state of mind, etc.), an astrological diagnosis is only one of many things to consider when determining your healthiness.


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Unread 02-24-2012, 03:30 AM
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Lightbulb Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Here I have the anonymized chart of a clinically diagnosed narcissist. I invite everyone to take a look and of course, this can lead to an open-ended discussion about what people think of the chart, and how it might be the chart of a Narcissist.

Please, though if you don't mind, read this disclaimer first on that matter, as there are a few concerns when it comes to reading charts and looking for any kind of particular characteristic related to anything (just as merely is the case for astrology, it does require an in-depth look), but especially the labels we use socially.


A brief background on the chart: a good buddy of mine is a practicing psychologist, and once he stops seeing a patient/client of his after five years, he sometimes gives me their anonymous birth information and diagnosis, allowing me a look at their charts. I don't assist in his practice in anyway, but he respects my interest in astrology and agrees with it philosophically. I don't do it with many, just particularly unique cases, like personality disorders. Moreover, since he is planning on publishing anonymous case studies, he is has sought to creatively unite some of the archetypes in astrology with his Jungian analysis, but not knowing astrology, I have been the one to assist him.

The birth time is derived, in most cases, from a physical description of the individual, but sometimes there is also discussions of birth times, since he is a practioner of psychotherapy, and it would seem then, not surprisingly, these things can come up.

Over the years, I have found it easier, and with a bit more grace and confidence, to identify personality disorders. It seems there is an excellent cross-over between the means of identifying personality disorders according to psychological criteria, and a well-honed look at someone's chart and the aspects it makes. I have never to this date found a tell-tale signature of any one personality disorder, I don't plan to.

I am sharing this chart though, because I thought it would be an interesting exercise. I have what I think are the "clues" or "factors present in the chart," which could very well be what born and bred the personality disorder. Of course, remember, this would then be a purely pathological reading of the chart, meaning we are looking at it from a highly specific perspective, one of illness. No longer would it be the 6th house, but rather the chart as a whole. To that end, please do not read this chart and draw any conclusions about mental illness and planetary placements.

This man is, as I said earlier, a Narcissist. Here is a definition of Narcissism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism It's wikipedia, so it may be accurate. For our purposes, I am sure its safe to use it as a general guide and understanding of what Narcissism is, for anyone who might not be aware of it, or needs a refresher. If anyone has any better sources, of course, please feel free to share.

Here is his chart, the time is not exact, but pretty close, as he did share an estimation of his birth time for whatever reasons it may have come up. I have included Equal and Placidus, attached in that order. I am willing to add asteroids, POF, and other things, if people would like.


I am excited to see what people have to say about the chart, since we know it is the chart of a Narcissist. What aspects or elements, planetary considerations, could be playing a role?
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File Type: jpg narcissist- Equal.jpg (77.9 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Narcissist- Placidus.jpg (79.3 KB, 59 views)

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Unread 02-24-2012, 02:33 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Hey QE,
I'm a noob to astrology, but I'll put my 2 cents in as I'm interested in this topic. Also, I'm not a medical professional or anything... I work in finance and there is an incredible amount of narcissism in this business hence my interest in this topic!

I think fundamentally this condition could be attributed to Taurus Asc conj Jupiter which gets a square from Mars. I think the Jupiter expands the Taurean qualities only to be negatively affected by that Mars square. Taurus ruled by Venus can have some vanity I believe. Jupiter can expand this and the Mars square can negatively impact this.

Next I noticed that both Mercury and the Sun receive a square from Pluto. Also both have Quincunx aspects to them as well.

I'd say the combination of these two situations would promote a narcissistic behavior... That Mars square to the Asc could add the violent element possibly

Last edited by StillOne; 02-24-2012 at 11:05 PM.
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Unread 02-24-2012, 09:38 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

If you have not got an accurate birth time for this individual, it might be best if you post the birth time as "unknown." This will give you a noon default time, so you have to recognize that the moon could move forwards or backwards 6 degrees. You won't get houses showing up, but I think it is better to dispense with them than to read a chart using bogus house cusp: these could be way wrong. If you have a close birth time but not an accurate one, I would suggest using whole sign houses.

If you hadn't given the diagnosis for this person, I don't think most of us would have caught it.

But one thing I will note is that this person has a Cancer stellium, and they can get awfully self-protective. Once the Crab goes into its shell, it is apt to protect that tender little sea creature living inside. With the square from Pluto, possibly s/he was bullied as a child. As an adult, s/he remained mistrustful of people and construes inter-personal power relations as a "dominate or be dominated" scenario.

I would read the moon-Neptune in Sagittarius quincunx sun-Mercury as difficulty in establishing a realistic self-imagine. Moon-Neptune in Sagittarius appears highly idealistic; yet Neptune lives in the world of illusion and disillusionment. Although the quincunx is a minor aspect, the sun-moon quincunx is exact. It indicates a kind of unease, where a situation is uncomfortable, yet there isn't enough "oomph" (as you would see with a square) to do much about it. This can lead to a lot of worrying, while sitting on the couch.

Mars would normally be the planet of violence. It sextiles Uranus, signalling sudden anger; though in a way suggesting pleasure or excitement with the sextile. Oddly, it is too bad this person didn't take up boxing or a martial art. That would have been a constructive use of this aspect. Maybe s/he did?
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Last edited by waybread; 02-24-2012 at 09:41 PM.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 05:15 PM
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Lightbulb Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Hey QE,
I'm a noob to astrology, but I'll put my 2 cents in as I'm interested in this topic. Also, I'm not a medical professional or anything... I work in finance and there is an incredible amount of narcissism in this business hence my interest in this topic!

I think fundamentally this condition could be attributed to Taurus Asc conj Jupiter which gets a square from Mars. I think the Jupiter expands the Taurean qualities only to be negatively affected by that Mars square. Taurus ruled by Venus can have some vanity I believe. Jupiter can expand this and the Mars square can negatively impact this.

Next I noticed that both Mercury and the Sun receive a square from Pluto. Also both have Quincunx aspects to them as well.

I'd say the combination of these two situations would promote a narcissistic behavior... That Mars square to the Asc could add the violent element possibly
The violent element is interesting one. As an important caveat which I originally left out, this person was an alcoholic, and got violent and rageful during those times, but could also easily flip. There may have been a secondary diagnosis of Bipolar. It has been awhile but I vaguely recall that. The hard part as I have learned with Narcissists, true Narcissists, is getting them to open up. Asking them "what's making you so angry," can actually be interpreted as an attack, as if you were saying something like, "you have no reason to be angry, so explain yourself," or even, "this anger is bad, therefore you are bad, so stop being bad." That's a really simplified example but then again I don't know much, just how its been explained to me.

I like, however, in a snarky way, that your work in finance as made you keen to narcissistic behavior. Perhaps its important to note that we all exhibit a certain degree of narcissism, and its actually healthy, but I'm sure you've seen the kind of damage total self-involvement and self-interest can do.

To me, the biggest keys here are the Mercury Square Pluto, and the Sun receiving no harmonious aspects, but rather an exact Quincunx from the Moon, and within-orb Square from Pluto. I'm also not inclined to believe the Moon receives any positive aspects either, considering that it already makes a wide (and potentially problematic) conjunction to Neptune, which is, itself widely trine Saturn.

It is interesting you point out the Vanity component, this is I missed, having been baffled as to why anyone with Jupiter sextile Venus would be an uncaring Narcissist. Yet, the potential is there, as you pointed out in the many ways that it could be. I suppose I questioned the influence of Neptune conjunct Moon potentially increasing empathy and receptiveness, but I guess it ended up making the boundaries of the person very poor. The thing about Narcissism is that in order to be diagnosed, part of the criteria is that blame everyone else for your problems, including the ones you caused. Perhaps that Jupiter conjunct the ASC creates a bloated sense of self-worth (though I've met some delightful people with Jupiter conjunct the ASC, but I will say, there is also some element of the grandiose though its that typical "well-meaningness" of Jupiter) and the sextile to Venus just makes it easier to "smile" while you basically blame others.




Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
If you have not got an accurate birth time for this individual, it might be best if you post the birth time as "unknown." This will give you a noon default time, so you have to recognize that the moon could move forwards or backwards 6 degrees. You won't get houses showing up, but I think it is better to dispense with them than to read a chart using bogus house cusp: these could be way wrong. If you have a close birth time but not an accurate one, I would suggest using whole sign houses.

If you hadn't given the diagnosis for this person, I don't think most of us would have caught it.

But one thing I will note is that this person has a Cancer stellium, and they can get awfully self-protective. Once the Crab goes into its shell, it is apt to protect that tender little sea creature living inside. With the square from Pluto, possibly s/he was bullied as a child. As an adult, s/he remained mistrustful of people and construes inter-personal power relations as a "dominate or be dominated" scenario.

I would read the moon-Neptune in Sagittarius quincunx sun-Mercury as difficulty in establishing a realistic self-imagine. Moon-Neptune in Sagittarius appears highly idealistic; yet Neptune lives in the world of illusion and disillusionment. Although the quincunx is a minor aspect, the sun-moon quincunx is exact. It indicates a kind of unease, where a situation is uncomfortable, yet there isn't enough "oomph" (as you would see with a square) to do much about it. This can lead to a lot of worrying, while sitting on the couch.

Mars would normally be the planet of violence. It sextiles Uranus, signalling sudden anger; though in a way suggesting pleasure or excitement with the sextile. Oddly, it is too bad this person didn't take up boxing or a martial art. That would have been a constructive use of this aspect. Maybe s/he did?
Waybread, the point you make about whole house system is an excellent one and one I had never considered nor heard of. We (and I say my psychologist friend and I) are pretty confident on the time, since it was admitted in therapy, though the exact minute is unknown, the patient apparently called his mother during therapy to get the birth time because he was telling his "story" about how he "had" to be born the day after his mother to get his "own" birthday. So 2am is based on what she said, which may have been from the actual birth certificate, but for me of course, the details get fuzzy from there as I was not there and I only know even this much because I asked a few questions.

With that said, I did include the whole house as I am 98% confident on the time. I say this because he was a Philosophy Professor, and often spoke about things in terms of grand Philosophies. Having people know and be aware of how intelligent he was of his knowledge, constantly discussing or bringing it up inappropriately, fixating on it, he did all of this. I am inclined then, to want to keep the birth time close to this time as well, for this reason.

Considering the violent component, it is also worth noting that if we keep his birth time within this vincinity, fixed star Algol is close to conjunct his ASC and Jupiter, within orb. I cannot get away from that personally once I realized it. It speaks volumes in my humble opinion.

I hope you'll also read what I wrote to StillOne above, and see what you think of it. I agree, had no one told me this person was a narcissist, I would have thought more along the lines of an astrologer and been inclined to say "easily discontented/contented" as well as "fixated on soothing and pleasure."

The Cancer Stellium struck me as well. Using Whole House, it ends up in the third house, as it does for Placidus, and stretched out over the second and third houses in Equal. For some reason I find it highly remarkable that in this scenario, though the birth time is imperfect, we see Mercury and the third house highlighted. Mercury receives an exact square from Pluto. He was known to be absolutely cutting verbally, unleashing attacks upon an perceived "predator." The Cancer energies were in full effect, and also with a significant impulse to act cruelly to those which might offend, given from what we see with Sun receiving solely a quincunx and square.

The Sun-Moon quincunx, being exact (if we allow), is stunning. Its influence would, in my opinion, be felt in the 8th house, no matter the house system we use. I wonder if this added to his dis-ease with power issues, a need to completely control his environment, to fend off attacks.

The other interesting thing is this, while Uranus is trine Mercury (and he was very intelligent), as well as sextile Mars, he seemed to revel in his impulsiveness and rebelliousness. The square from Saturn, however, to Uranus, I wonder if it made him feel rotten as well, not good enough perhaps, and not stable/secure enough, meaning he sought thrills, or "narcissistic supply." I know he also made strong attempts to secure and procure people's knowing of him as unique.

Its interesting you point out how, if this person had gotten involved with martial arts training, it may have helped. He took the route of the intellectual, pursuing, as I said, a PhD in Philosophy, though apparently he hated teaching. He was more inclined to use it to look down on others, including his students. He was also very fixed in his ideologies. Not surprisingly however, he started to show some changes when he began working on his father's farm, an interesting connection to what you are saying about working and using his body and energy. He may have eventually left teaching altogether to work on the farm, which may have been when he left therapy, since it was also significant that he repaired his relationship with his father (or so it seems, I'm making a conjecture here).


I wonder... Chiron... anyone?
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Unread 02-25-2012, 05:55 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Hi QE-- In my former line of work I was surrounded by university profs, and I found sun conjunct Mercury to be common. This was when I stopped believing that a combust planet or a planet "under the beams" was weakened. Rather I interpret sun conjunct Mercury as the person identifying (sun) with his intelligence (Mercury.)

I think your comments about narcissists having difficulty in dealing with their anger would be especially true about Cancer, because this sign can get extremely defensive when it thinks it is being attacked.

I have a family member who normally is the sweetest guy you would ever want to meet, but he drinks his share and can be a mean drunk. I can only guess that certain transits trigger this kind of behaviour, because it is only occasional. The moon making a harsh aspect to a personal planet can show up as a propensity to substance abuse. Moon-Neptune in Sagittarius might simply mean a lot of idealism, but perhaps when transiting Mars or Uranus hits it, he's got to release that erasure (Neptune) of inhibitions (moon) somehow. Ditto for those exact Saturn-Uranus and Mercury-Pluto squares, which can be real pressure-cookers. Pluto square Mercury-Sun could read as, "D*mn! I'm better than you!"

Jupiter and the 9th rule both higher education and philosophy. With Jupiter conjunct AC square Mars, you may find the kind of competitiveness that academics so often exhibit ("Mirror, mirror on the wall.... who's the best researcher of us all?") A Mars square would drive someone to succeed, but probably not happily so.

I wouldn't see philosophy (9th house) a super-good match with this individual. His 9th is ruled by Saturn in the 4th but possibly he found a specialization within philosophy that suited his outlook on life.

Anyway, I hope farm life suits this man. Nobody deserves to feel miserable.
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Last edited by waybread; 02-25-2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 09:33 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

I noticed he has,SU=ME/VE,0.54"D (90 Midpoint)
A sense of beauty,vanity or conceit,self-glorification.

He also has SU/MA
Restlessness,the inclination to quarrel,violence.

May I ask if the subject of rape came up during therapy?

J.R.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 09:46 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

I see that Chiron is opposite Uranus
Chiron is trine Mars
Chiron is square Saturn

Chiron/Mars I've read is a bit of a warrior type with an almost unstoppable energy. I also have this aspect so I can relate to the energy of it.
But the Chiron is in square to Saturn plus opposite Uranus, this adds a stop/start feel to that unstoppable energy. It feels almost frustrating, all that build up from the t-square comes out through the Mars. I wonder if any of those planets are in the 7th house of projection.

Mercury/Neptune though I agree adds a bit of unreality to their thoughts and ideas, the narcissism of over emphasising their ego to cover up a deep seated feeling of worthlessness. Ooo though the Mercury is in square to Pluto, powerful punch to those words!

Saturn in Leo may be a feeling of worthlessness, especially so as its the midpoint of Mercury and Mars, and this is channelled out through that aspect I mentioned above. The Mercury here is also linked into the quincunx Mercury/Neptune and those illusions/delusions.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

had a boyfriend for several months who was diagnosed NPD by dsmIII criteria.
cardinal angles within orb of aspect to venus cancer, mars aries, mercury aries.
had a penchant for meeting influential/weatlthy women and then humiliating them by leaving them hanging after he used them up.
his moon aquarius trine sun gemini ~ dad was a cheater and mom was long suffering irish catholic.
narcissists have a strange view of righting wrongs.
i've read that children of narcissistic parent will replicate relationships in adult life with narcissists.
he always spoke of his dad as if he was speaking of himself.
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Unread 02-25-2012, 11:51 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

I'm not a natal astrologer but, traditionally the Moon represented the mind. I find it curious in this chart, the Moon is unaspected and void, as if the Mind is simply unattached and floating without having anything to hinge itself upon.

It's only real relationship, in this chart, is the mutual reception with Jupiter, on the ASC, giving a rather larger-than-life perspective to the mind, blowing things out of proportion.

Also, the Moon has no relationship to the Ascendant, the ruler of the Ascendant, the Sun or Mercury which, are vital parts of the personality and body. In fact, the Moon not only does not aspect them but, is disjuct showing the Mind out of relationship with the self, the body, the personality and the brain.

As for Mercury being combust, I don't think Mercury is as affected by this as other planets are because Mercury naturally is close to the Sun and also takes on the qualities of whatever and whoever it is configured with. Mercury is really little affected personally but rather becomes what it is in relation with.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 02:08 AM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Also, the Moon has no relationship to the Ascendant, the ruler of the Ascendant, the Sun or Mercury which, are vital parts of the personality and body. In fact, the Moon not only does not aspect them but, is disjuct showing the Mind out of relationship with the self, the body, the personality and the brain.
Such a tight orb on that quincunx. Plus, the moon is in the 8th house in Whole Houses and Placidus (pretty much in Equal also).

Cafeastrology says:
Quote:
Sun Quincunx (Inconjunct) Moon

Your perceptions of others and of life circumstances alter as you get older. As others misunderstand your intentions and you misjudge others' motivations, natural corrections occur for you. It is through concentrating on the core values of communication in relationships that you make major adjustments between your ego drives and your emotional needs. This becomes a critical mechanism for personal growth and development.
I also find it interesting that the Sun has mostly/only challenging aspects to it.

The majority of the planets in water are afflicted.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 10:41 AM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

We don't really know what time this person was born though, which leads the Moon several degrees either way..
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Unread 02-26-2012, 11:55 AM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

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Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Such a tight orb on that quincunx. Plus, the moon is in the 8th house in Whole Houses and Placidus (pretty much in Equal also).
Again, I am looking at the chart from a tradtitonal perspective so, quincunx does not really "count". This is what I meant above by mentioning 'disjunct'...it's the same as quincunx.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising View Post
We don't really know what time this person was born though, which leads the Moon several degrees either way..
True, in which case, if the time on this chart is approximated, then all bets are off. Even speculation is pointless without more precision! I mean we are talking about the personality here, not how to fit two Lego blocks together.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Anachiel, I agree. We can't speculate with the houses. The OP says its fairly close time based on an estimation... The Moon in this case may be unaspected, or singleton - I found this observation interesting as I live next door to someone I suspect is narcissitic and they have the same aspect but also they have Mercury/Neptune conjunction plus other aspects which can lead to that type of personality.

I am curious to see where Lilith is in this chart.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 03:11 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Quaternity Eagle-- It would be interesting if you could pass these interpretations along to your psychologist friend, and get his feedback on them! I am thinking that if particular interpretations do/do not match up with the psychologist's records, it would be helpful for us to then see which chart placements seem most "diagnostic."

Of course, I don't think most of us (any of us?) here are clinical psychologists, so we would be trying to interpret the chart through a lay-person's eyes.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 07:38 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Wiki has two pages on N.P.D.

Here's the other one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narciss...ality_disorder

DSM-IV-TR 301.81

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
  1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
  2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
  4. Requires excessive admiration
  5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
  6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
  7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
  8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
  9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
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Unread 02-26-2012, 08:31 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

My younger brother's case would be a perfect example to study.

He's never been diagnosed, but I believe he is an overlapping case
of schizoid, paranoid and narcissistic personality disorders.

In terms of violence, he abused his younger son three years ago.

Currently, instigated by his wife, he's driving me crazy with all kinds
of harassing tactics in order to drive me out of the house, knowing that
that they can't do it by legal means, since I am half owner.

Hasn't turned violent on me yet, but my spiritual friend who checked out
his photo said he could easily do so, since I am currently the target of
his extreme hatred. She said that when I am gone, she thinks he will
likely turn his paranoid hatred on his wife.

He sticks "notices" and "orders" on the front of my bedroom door,
much like an SS guard at a concentration camp.

My friend said he definitely has mental problems, as did a local famous
clairvoyant whom I consulted.

An Indonesian "bomoh" (witch doctor) friend, with his psychic powers,
said he is like Hitler.

He has a stellium in his 8th house (as did Hitler, using one of his birthtimes).

Jupiter exactly at Algol. (Hitler had Saturn two or three degrees from this
famours star.) Essentially "lost his head".

Ate, the Goddess of evil, rashness, impulse, mischief and vengeance,
and Zosma, the star of abuse and suffering, are exact with his Sun.

I am certain that he needs to take drugs like risperidone and olanzapine.

This is the profile of a RM 15,000-a-month 47-year old Principal Engineer
at the Malaysian plant of Western Digital. Hollers at his subordinates as
if they were stray dogs, much like he does to me. I have been told that
everybody there hates him.
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Unread 02-26-2012, 09:23 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

This is where I have a problem with the currently-accepted "disease model" of psychoanalysis. According to those criteria posted by Cold Fusion (which look to be legitimate), I could qualify every person on Earth as being narcissistic. Everyone has those tendencies to some extent or another. Only when they pass a purely subjective and nearly arbitrary line of "too much" do we call them "symptoms of a disease." Further, anyone who could be classified as truly being a "violent narcissist" is not going to suddenly turn into a decent person. Someone who is careless and self-absorbed can be given a pill, and that will make them careless, self-absorbed, and stoned. There is no magic bullet. Long, hard work and a willingness to change is the only way to reliably effect change. Narcissists are at such a severe disadvantage because they don't feel any motivation to change at all. Narcissism, when you really break it down, is little more than extreme hubris and conceit. "I'm already better than everyone else, so why should I change? I should make you more like me!"
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Unread 02-26-2012, 09:44 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

There have been so many interesting responses to this thread. For those who expressed the "needing to know right time" concerns, I am going to try to address them. I will be spending some time with my psychologist friend this Wednesday, it was not going to be about this, but I wouldn't be out of the blue for me to ask either, I would just need to give him a heads-up about it, since this would require him to do a little research.

So I went ahead and did that, and he remembers the patient, has a file on him, and he will get me, and then us, the exact birth time, which he has only because he received a copy of the man's birth certificate. I don't know why he has the man's birth certificate, and I'm not allowed to know (Jerry RR it might have something to do with a criminal act, potentially perverse).

I never even thought to ask, since he's given me quite a few charts over the years, in which I've usually drawn up "house-free/birth-time" unknowns for.
We'd talk more about the planetary influence in terms of archetypes. He's writing a book about Jungian archetypes and men, focusing on violence and self-image, and the consequences of one on the other. He's studying the psyche, so its not astrology he's interested in, but images of fictitious/mythological males in various forms of spiritualities, cultural productions (like art and meda), and contemporary cross-national warfare.

If people who are interested... I will have an exact birth time on Wednesday. I want to thank-you again for your posts. This si very cool!
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Unread 02-26-2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cold Fusion View Post
Wiki has two pages on N.P.D.

Here's the other one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narciss...ality_disorder

DSM-IV-TR 301.81

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders fourth edition, DSM IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines narcissistic personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as:[1]

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
  1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
  2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
  4. Requires excessive admiration
  5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
  6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
  7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
  8. Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
  9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
gosh! This would describe at least half the university faculty in the English-speaking world. The other half don't have tenure, so they have to be nice to other people.
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Unread 02-27-2012, 03:20 AM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
gosh! This would describe at least half the university faculty in the English-speaking world. The other half don't have tenure, so they have to be nice to other people.

Yes, interesting remarks on this - if I may stray for a moment - that you and Mark made.

It seems that there is a "fashion" or trend toward certain 'disorders' getting more attention or becoming popular or stressed.

It used to be that being 'depressed' was the "fashion". Then it was ADD or ADHD was the "fashion". Now it seems that NPD is the fashionable or trending or stressed disorder.

I wonder if the general transits or ingresses reflect this somehow.....just pondering.

Maybe we need a book that is the opposite of the DSMIV so that people can look up how good/sane/healthy they are, too? Sort of like a book for pronoiacs?
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Unread 02-27-2012, 10:59 AM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Yes, it also makes me think that the western society and/or its influences is tending bring out more narcissism in people - immediate gratification being required, rewards wanted for no work or effort being put in, buy now and pay later (or not at all, as long as people can have what they want now)... no thought or remorse for future implications of current actions/reactions. The consumer 'throw away' society....

I've had close associations with two narcissists in my life, their behaviours were problematic to the point of abuse (one physical and one emotional/mental). I must say though, these two people were rareties out of all the people I know and have known, their cases stood out. The delusions of grandiour or feelings of superiority, using people as objects/tools rather than fellow human beings, abuse and manipulation, an excessive need for power (one even had an obsessions with being an rich ogliarch). He wanted people to work for him, with no recompense or reward, that is, he wanted people, his women, to do his various chorse for him. One of these guys had a string of women who always seemed to abuse him, or so he would say. It wasn't until I realised just how he used them all, manipulated them and played on their weaknesses, that I understood why they were all so upset with him. Of course, he thought he was perfect and that women were all evil. By-the-by, he had an interesting Sun/Lilith/Jupiter opposition across his Nadir/MC axis, as well as other aspects pointing towards his personality type - he projected all his internal unconscious beliefs outwards about women. If anyone would make a critique of his personality, he would take it as an attack and react completely irrationally. As I understood it, its a protection of a very very fragile ego and the image that the person has built up about themselves - when something threatens this image, like someone invading a castle, a counter-attack is launched against the perceived threat.

The other guy, I lived with one for 3 or 4 years over a decade ago, he was a violent one but I was way too young to know much different. It was all the same traits though, to the excess - manipulation, control (he took over my finances so I had no freedom), he thought he was the 'all powerful' one and had his own problems with authority and lived partly outside of the law. I bought into this image that he portrayed of himself totally (I was young and very naive when we met) but when I started to challenge this image, a full on assult was launched that put me back in my place. It was a learning experience which taught me alot.

The majority of people I know now or have known, may show various tendencies of narcissism, but when it makes their life as well as other people's lives detrimental, that it's a problem.
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Unread 02-27-2012, 12:09 PM
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

I believe this is your patient's ephemeris.

http://www.true-node.com/eph1/?input...M&longitude=on


Using Chaldean/Indian numerology, it is not difficult to
see why he is a narcissist.

He is a 9-3 person (9 birth, 3 destiny).

9 = Mars (Hot tempered, arrogant, violent)
3 = Jupiter (Dominating, tyrannical, conceited)


He is also a Dragon. So is my brother. Dragons are known to be
cold, tyrannical, arrogant, explotative, selfcentered, without any
conscience and cares little about others.

Lastly, note also that Jupiter conjuncts his Algol, as in my brother's case.
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Unread 03-02-2012, 02:31 AM
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Exclamation Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Hello everyone... as promised I can back to this thread. Hope people are still interested.

Here is the exact birth chart (I'm going to keep all the specific details private, I suppose its just my inner ethics kicking in), of patient J.

(NeptuneRising, I included Lilith as I thought you might be interested and I'm sure others including myself are interested in hearing your thoughts).

I hope it serves our purposes well

It would be really inappropriate, in my opinion, to equivocate any astrological aspect with a category of personality disorders... so I just want to ask, that while I think it is cool, this whole concept... can we really find an astrological signature for these things? I mean, to be honest, this was why I started this thread... I'm not sure if it's totally possible, so I guess we are all just hypothesizing on a very interesting subject...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising View Post
I see that Chiron is opposite Uranus
Chiron is trine Mars
Chiron is square Saturn

Chiron/Mars I've read is a bit of a warrior type with an almost unstoppable energy. I also have this aspect so I can relate to the energy of it.
But the Chiron is in square to Saturn plus opposite Uranus, this adds a stop/start feel to that unstoppable energy. It feels almost frustrating, all that build up from the t-square comes out through the Mars. I wonder if any of those planets are in the 7th house of projection.

Mercury/Neptune though I agree adds a bit of unreality to their thoughts and ideas, the narcissism of over emphasising their ego to cover up a deep seated feeling of worthlessness. Ooo though the Mercury is in square to Pluto, powerful punch to those words!

Saturn in Leo may be a feeling of worthlessness, especially so as its the midpoint of Mercury and Mars, and this is channelled out through that aspect I mentioned above. The Mercury here is also linked into the quincunx Mercury/Neptune and those illusions/delusions.

Chiron Square Uranus would be generational right? Though it also seems to be a long cycle, in that many actual generations seem to have this aspect, in different signs, and I suppose that has to do with the Uranus/Saturn conjunction that happened about 25 years ago. That said, I think without question in chart like this, especially, it still has some significance. Patient J has Mercury Trine Uranus= Uranus is made personal, and with this chart, I feel like any links we make to Mercury, is important. Narcissism is an issue with idealization, and how that's communicated to others, and one's own thoughts about one's self.

I also though it was interesting Chiron was desposited by Venus, and then being trine Mars, perhaps I wonder then if a) the isolating feeling of the square from Saturn, plus Chiron being in the 12th, also the 11th might b) come out as an issue with relating harmoniously to others, feeling devoid, or even "holier than thou," finding others unworthy of the person's time, which really is to hide the wounding then of Chiron.

The psychologist who worked with this guy indicated this guy had a lot of pent up rage which resulted in a myriad of self-defeating behaviors which I don't think the Sun-Pluto square self-sabotage element can wholly account for, because instead, he blamed other people. To me, this is again, indicative of Chiron's relationship to Mas/Venus/Saturn. He was definitely unstoppable once he got going, but there was no channel, and the 12th house influence made him retreat, lash out, sulk, and become absorbed in his alienation and difference (Chiron-Uranus opposition perhaps?) and yet also found some sort of spiritual gratification from this. He was very interested in the idea of God punishing others/rewarding him, if he played it like he was the one being punished, which I thought was interesting since Chiron does deal with the wound of isolation, and it being the 12th house, deceptive then?

Mercury square Pluto exact-- I was told the man could speak some fo the cruelest words, and the kinds of things you would not say unless you really wanted to hurt someone. He felt empathy later, and so long as it made him feel better, which isn't really empathy, just a break in the act of the pathology.

Lilith is near conjunct Chiron.... thoughts Neptune?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JerryRR View Post
I noticed he has,SU=ME/VE,0.54"D (90 Midpoint)
A sense of beauty,vanity or conceit,self-glorification.

He also has SU/MA
Restlessness,the inclination to quarrel,violence.

May I ask if the subject of rape came up during therapy?

J.R.
Hi JR yes rape was a big topic. The man experienced a huge split between masculine and feminine in himself. He also entertained not rape fantasies, but saw women as a way to heal and soothe himself within, entertained fantasies, and even acting on, using them. He would incite quarrels to then elicit sex as a way to make himself feel better (quite literally), and assumed she would too. My friend commented this guy did not seem to know how to actually relate in sex, and seemed preoccupied with a constant sense of disatisfaction but not understanding, getting angry with rather, his partner's dissatisfaction. He did not know how to please a woman and he blamed women for this, often discussing in sexually perverse terms (w/o even realizing as I was told), what he expected of women, and of men.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaeMae View Post
had a boyfriend for several months who was diagnosed NPD by dsmIII criteria.
cardinal angles within orb of aspect to venus cancer, mars aries, mercury aries.
had a penchant for meeting influential/weatlthy women and then humiliating them by leaving them hanging after he used them up.
his moon aquarius trine sun gemini ~ dad was a cheater and mom was long suffering irish catholic.
narcissists have a strange view of righting wrongs.
i've read that children of narcissistic parent will replicate relationships in adult life with narcissists.
he always spoke of his dad as if he was speaking of himself.
This is really interesting, the association with the Father. Sun square Pluto in this chart does indicate Father issues. My friend and I did not really talk too much about Dad in this case, but there was again, a pre-occupation with his father, but also his mother. He never felt he could satisfy either, and thought it was God's way of punishing him. At first this might seem opposite to Narcissism, but my friend was quick to point out how this guy got a sense of glory from this punishment. A narcissistic masochism I might think, which is interesting considering Moon conjunct Neptune... 7th house projections and the like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
I'm not a natal astrologer but, traditionally the Moon represented the mind. I find it curious in this chart, the Moon is unaspected and void, as if the Mind is simply unattached and floating without having anything to hinge itself upon.

It's only real relationship, in this chart, is the mutual reception with Jupiter, on the ASC, giving a rather larger-than-life perspective to the mind, blowing things out of proportion.

Also, the Moon has no relationship to the Ascendant, the ruler of the Ascendant, the Sun or Mercury which, are vital parts of the personality and body. In fact, the Moon not only does not aspect them but, is disjuct showing the Mind out of relationship with the self, the body, the personality and the brain.

As for Mercury being combust, I don't think Mercury is as affected by this as other planets are because Mercury naturally is close to the Sun and also takes on the qualities of whatever and whoever it is configured with. Mercury is really little affected personally but rather becomes what it is in relation with.
Mercury to me, as I spoke with my friend, and I look at this chart more, seems like an interesting "pinball" being bounced around in this machine. It seems to expose his crueler components, and what he found gratifying (Mercury trine Uranus), and how he didn't really expose himself to it on an intuitive level, or feeling level (Moon inconjunct). He could not feel for others, because he could not feel for himself. The biggest secret I have learned about Narcissists, is that they hate themselves the most, care for themselves the least: everyone else matters, and satisfying the delusions of self through these people. Moon in Sag would make for BIG and conjunct Neptune, blurried boundaries, and so he relies then as his sole connection, Mercury sort of acts on behalf of his Sun, which is not in a great position. The man thought he thought he could think/speak/write his way out of anything. He was thus brilliant to himself, but always unsatistfied with other's responses to him. (Moon in 7th?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StillOne View Post
Such a tight orb on that quincunx. Plus, the moon is in the 8th house in Whole Houses and Placidus (pretty much in Equal also).

Cafeastrology says:


I also find it interesting that the Sun has mostly/only challenging aspects to it.

The majority of the planets in water are afflicted.
The water planets affliction... I thought about this some. On an elementary level, when water is prevented from movement, it stagnants, builds, pressure. Eventually you get this explosion of stale, lifeless water. I think this interesting to think about given that this guy felt no one could understand his emotions, prevented access to them, and then with great vitriol, unleash them and douse those who touched upon his pained emotions with this stale water. Kind of like being thrown into a swamp. He had a hard time keeping and making close connections, unless the person somehow could not be in touch with his emotions... classic for Narcissism then because he could only be with those who had particular importance, but were out of his reach, though he pretended like they weren't. Anyone who burst this bubble got a lot of ugly emotional backwater thrown on them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising View Post
We don't really know what time this person was born though, which leads the Moon several degrees either way..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising View Post
Anachiel, I agree. We can't speculate with the houses. The OP says its fairly close time based on an estimation... The Moon in this case may be unaspected, or singleton - I found this observation interesting as I live next door to someone I suspect is narcissitic and they have the same aspect but also they have Mercury/Neptune conjunction plus other aspects which can lead to that type of personality.

I am curious to see where Lilith is in this chart.
Hi put lilith in. Moon is still aspected

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Quaternity Eagle-- It would be interesting if you could pass these interpretations along to your psychologist friend, and get his feedback on them! I am thinking that if particular interpretations do/do not match up with the psychologist's records, it would be helpful for us to then see which chart placements seem most "diagnostic."

Of course, I don't think most of us (any of us?) here are clinical psychologists, so we would be trying to interpret the chart through a lay-person's eyes.

Hi Waybread, this I brought up. The Sun-Moon inconjunct, the Moon-Neptune conjunction, the Sun-Pluto Square, Mercury-Pluto Square, and Jupiter-Mars trine with Mars square Uranus and what they say about a person matched up with a lot of the diagnostic practices of my friend. I didn't say much else since my friend doesn't know much about astrology, so I spent a lot of time explaining, and he pondered. We got this far.

In particular, anything that eluded to restlessness, a propensity to unleash violence/terror/mayhem/criticism onto those who got too close and touched his pain, also excerbated what is described by the Sun-Moon inconjunct. This was big. My friend said everything which could be read from this chart should be located back on this Sun-Moon inconjunct. I wonder what people thought of this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark View Post
This is where I have a problem with the currently-accepted "disease model" of psychoanalysis. According to those criteria posted by Cold Fusion (which look to be legitimate), I could qualify every person on Earth as being narcissistic. Everyone has those tendencies to some extent or another. Only when they pass a purely subjective and nearly arbitrary line of "too much" do we call them "symptoms of a disease." Further, anyone who could be classified as truly being a "violent narcissist" is not going to suddenly turn into a decent person. Someone who is careless and self-absorbed can be given a pill, and that will make them careless, self-absorbed, and stoned. There is no magic bullet. Long, hard work and a willingness to change is the only way to reliably effect change. Narcissists are at such a severe disadvantage because they don't feel any motivation to change at all. Narcissism, when you really break it down, is little more than extreme hubris and conceit. "I'm already better than everyone else, so why should I change? I should make you more like me!"
I agree Mark. this guy was in therapy a long time and I think when it was concluded that he no longer felt obligated by his own high and mighty spiritual beliefs to act venomously and cruelly to those around him, that that was as far as they were going to get. There was no magic bullet. It seemed as if once the Narcissistic blister on his Ego got a little bit smaller, and he no longer believed in particular the delusions of grandeur and thus allowances to be violent, he was deemed no longer needing therapy. My friend, and as most psychologists know, Narcissists are hard to treat, many don't get better (because they don't want to, as you know), and instead my friend helped focus on the sadness of the guy's isolation, sort of getting him to mature enough not to act narcissistically in some situations. The guy never knew he was a narcissist. He was just sick of being alone, and my friend described it like he treated therapy as if he was "taking classes" or "building his resume." It wasn't so much deceitful as the guy was completely unable to see that he needed to actually change to get better. In fact, it became about giving him a more realistic sense of confidence that seemed to be the best antidote. Yes, my friend complimented him a lot during therapy, a sort of narcissistic supply as it was described, but it only went so far. The biggest changes came when they dealt with parent issues (Patient J blamed his parents for everything, until it came to blaming women in his life).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tham View Post
My younger brother's case would be a perfect example to study.

He's never been diagnosed, but I believe he is an overlapping case
of schizoid, paranoid and narcissistic personality disorders.

In terms of violence, he abused his younger son three years ago.

Currently, instigated by his wife, he's driving me crazy with all kinds
of harassing tactics in order to drive me out of the house, knowing that
that they can't do it by legal means, since I am half owner.

Hasn't turned violent on me yet, but my spiritual friend who checked out
his photo said he could easily do so, since I am currently the target of
his extreme hatred. She said that when I am gone, she thinks he will
likely turn his paranoid hatred on his wife.

He sticks "notices" and "orders" on the front of my bedroom door,
much like an SS guard at a concentration camp.

My friend said he definitely has mental problems, as did a local famous
clairvoyant whom I consulted.

An Indonesian "bomoh" (witch doctor) friend, with his psychic powers,
said he is like Hitler.

He has a stellium in his 8th house (as did Hitler, using one of his birthtimes).

Jupiter exactly at Algol. (Hitler had Saturn two or three degrees from this
famours star.) Essentially "lost his head".

Ate, the Goddess of evil, rashness, impulse, mischief and vengeance,
and Zosma, the star of abuse and suffering, are exact with his Sun.

I am certain that he needs to take drugs like risperidone and olanzapine.

This is the profile of a RM 15,000-a-month 47-year old Principal Engineer
at the Malaysian plant of Western Digital. Hollers at his subordinates as
if they were stray dogs, much like he does to me. I have been told that
everybody there hates him.
Yes, I do believe Algol is important. But I think only in terms of astrology. This might be the best signature out there in my humble opinion. The guy was a grandiose delusional philosophy professor, and then very physically aggressive and out of touch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anachiel View Post
Yes, interesting remarks on this - if I may stray for a moment - that you and Mark made.

It seems that there is a "fashion" or trend toward certain 'disorders' getting more attention or becoming popular or stressed.

It used to be that being 'depressed' was the "fashion". Then it was ADD or ADHD was the "fashion". Now it seems that NPD is the fashionable or trending or stressed disorder.

I wonder if the general transits or ingresses reflect this somehow.....just pondering.

Maybe we need a book that is the opposite of the DSMIV so that people can look up how good/sane/healthy they are, too? Sort of like a book for pronoiacs?
I am not sure if NPD is as fashionable as ADD but I hear what you are saying. From my friend: "personality disorders are hardest and rarest, particularly narcissism." The reason is, Narcissists don't come to therapy because they don't think they need it! My friend pointed out that the codependent lovers and children of narcissists come for therapy, and that's usually how narcissism is first discovered, if it ever is at all.

I *love* this idea of the pronoiac book!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neptune Rising View Post
Yes, it also makes me think that the western society and/or its influences is tending bring out more narcissism in people - immediate gratification being required, rewards wanted for no work or effort being put in, buy now and pay later (or not at all, as long as people can have what they want now)... no thought or remorse for future implications of current actions/reactions. The consumer 'throw away' society....

I've had close associations with two narcissists in my life, their behaviours were problematic to the point of abuse (one physical and one emotional/mental). I must say though, these two people were rareties out of all the people I know and have known, their cases stood out. The delusions of grandiour or feelings of superiority, using people as objects/tools rather than fellow human beings, abuse and manipulation, an excessive need for power (one even had an obsessions with being an rich ogliarch). He wanted people to work for him, with no recompense or reward, that is, he wanted people, his women, to do his various chorse for him. One of these guys had a string of women who always seemed to abuse him, or so he would say. It wasn't until I realised just how he used them all, manipulated them and played on their weaknesses, that I understood why they were all so upset with him. Of course, he thought he was perfect and that women were all evil. By-the-by, he had an interesting Sun/Lilith/Jupiter opposition across his Nadir/MC axis, as well as other aspects pointing towards his personality type - he projected all his internal unconscious beliefs outwards about women. If anyone would make a critique of his personality, he would take it as an attack and react completely irrationally. As I understood it, its a protection of a very very fragile ego and the image that the person has built up about themselves - when something threatens this image, like someone invading a castle, a counter-attack is launched against the perceived threat.

The other guy, I lived with one for 3 or 4 years over a decade ago, he was a violent one but I was way too young to know much different. It was all the same traits though, to the excess - manipulation, control (he took over my finances so I had no freedom), he thought he was the 'all powerful' one and had his own problems with authority and lived partly outside of the law. I bought into this image that he portrayed of himself totally (I was young and very naive when we met) but when I started to challenge this image, a full on assult was launched that put me back in my place. It was a learning experience which taught me alot.

The majority of people I know now or have known, may show various tendencies of narcissism, but when it makes their life as well as other people's lives detrimental, that it's a problem.
Wow.... what a story. Its terrible you went through it. You know very well the narcissistic personality though. The key is fragile ego. Patient J thought everyone must be dumber than he was, and if not, he had to prove it so, and he would put himself in very precarious situations just to prove himself, only to expose how fragile it was... he was very needy.

We could, as astrologers, look for the signs of fragile ego in the chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tham View Post
I believe this is your patient's ephemeris.

http://www.true-node.com/eph1/?input...M&longitude=on


Using Chaldean/Indian numerology, it is not difficult to
see why he is a narcissist.

He is a 9-3 person (9 birth, 3 destiny).

9 = Mars (Hot tempered, arrogant, violent)
3 = Jupiter (Dominating, tyrannical, conceited)


He is also a Dragon. So is my brother. Dragons are known to be
cold, tyrannical, arrogant, explotative, selfcentered, without any
conscience and cares little about others.

Lastly, note also that Jupiter conjuncts his Algol, as in my brother's case.
I don't know much about Chinese Horoscopes, but I know all signs have their darker qualities in any sense. It is again this Jupiter conjunct Algol and him being very absorbed in philosophy (sometimes that's all he'd talk about, and in a high and mighty, demeaning way).
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  #24  
Unread 03-03-2012, 12:30 PM
JerryRR JerryRR is offline
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

Thank you for answering my question.
He has,MA= VE/PL,and a few other things.

He also has the same D.O.B as an American professional Wrestler,who is an avid gamer and considered art as a career.
An American actor/director,with a BA in English from Stanford.
Also a Dutch twice Olympic speed skater.

Interesting chart.

J.R.
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  #25  
Unread 03-03-2012, 09:35 PM
sandstone sandstone is offline
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Re: Clinically Diagnosed Violent Narcissist

thanks for sharing.

i think the pattern neptune rising was hitting on - saturn squared onto the uranus- chiron opposition is especially interesting as it ties directly to the midheaven axis.. moon to midheaven 45 and moon to chiron 135 as well. . leo is about ego and saturn in leo can compensate for a sense of weakness in this area a number of ways.. there may be some family dynamic from the family that has fed into this.. both parents are implicated by the astro as i read it..

jupiter sitting right on the ascendant rules the 8th where the moon/neptune are .. jupiter in taurus rising wouldn't be all that helpful with saturn in leo as they both feed the personal self more then they would if in libra-to pisces, or in different house positions.. too much self centered-ness is what i get from these 2 planets sign/house position.. the close 150 between sun/moon is quite interesting here as well given moon rules the cancer planets is involved in a typical health type aspect with the sun and by house the ascendant as well.. really via the moon and venus - the 2 rulers of the sun, ascendant and 6th house - we get an impression of more serious health issues with moon in the 8th in particular.. his general health might be quite good too with jupiter rising, but the mental health - connected more to moon and mercury look more challenged.. mercury and moon form no ptolemic aspect, but are 6 signs /houses apart..

if one doesn't include the chiron square to midheaven, the jupiter conjunction ascendant and mercury/pluto square are the closest aspects to the chart.. mercury/pluto midpoint squares the ascendant.. venus/pluto = mars which might support some of the violence comment..

interesting chart.. i don't think you can read narcissist off the chart without knowing this prior to looking at it.. i know i wouldn't be making this call!! thanks again for sharing...
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