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  #1  
Unread 05-18-2020, 02:09 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

I had someone DM me this chart a couple months back and I never got around to it, not even sure if the user ever logged in after that, but I was a bit thrown off by the chart. Their concern was of expecting a Saturn return and what to see from it but no matter what I did, I could not figure out the chart as a whole.

My gut instinct was to tell them it's gonna get rough with all of the Saturn oppositions and the fact that its in the 6th house means health issues, yet the 12th house is packed so maybe undiagnosable health issues? The only good thing is that this is a day chart instead of a night one which I hear are easier for Saturn returns.

Any more experienced people want to take a shot at this?

https://i.imgur.com/DHAQBWQ.png

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  #2  
Unread 05-18-2020, 05:22 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Sorry this chart is their natal?
I'm confused because you say they wanted to know about their Saturn return? Or is it this one?
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  #3  
Unread 05-18-2020, 07:59 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Sorry this chart is their natal?
I'm confused because you say they wanted to know about their Saturn return? Or is it this one?
Yes, it is their natal chart, I don't understand why we are having that confusion.....

It is their Saturn return, they wanted to know and I am clueless about it.

I mean I have been a bit drowsy myself so maybe there was a hiccup on my end but I hope that cleared things up.
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  #4  
Unread 05-18-2020, 08:10 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Ok, thanks, so you don't have their Saturn return chart then.
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  #5  
Unread 05-18-2020, 08:45 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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Originally Posted by ElenaJ View Post
Ok, thanks, so you don't have their Saturn return chart then.
I never knew such a thing even existed lol, I don't think the person in question does either so it seems like we're kind SOL here
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  #6  
Unread 05-18-2020, 08:52 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

I've heard of it, but don't know how to do a chart for it.
Apparently it used to be an option on astro.com but it isn't any longer.
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  #7  
Unread 05-18-2020, 09:04 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Here is one link for calculating the Saturn return, but we would need the date info of the natal, which isn't on the chart they gave you.
https://www.astrocal.co.uk/saturn-return-calculator/

And a bit of explanation..
https://www.astrocal.co.uk/astro/ast...is-calculated/
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  #8  
Unread 05-18-2020, 11:54 PM
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

If this person isn't dialoging with you, there's not really anything you can do for them. There's no way to definitively predict what will happen, at Saturn return or any other time. Astrologers see the theme. We can think of possible ways the theme might manifest. But which ways the themes actually do manifest won't be determined until it happens, and then it might be a way that the astrologer didn't think of.

Here's what I would do if this person were my client: I would ask them what was going on in their life at the age of 7, and at the age of 14 1/2 - 15, and at 21. Those are the other hard angle Saturn transits we all go through. At 7, Saturn makes its waxing square to its natal position. 14 1/2 or so is Saturn opposition. Around 21-22, you get the waning square.

Each time, Saturn gets triggered by itself, and so do any other placements you have in conjunction, opposition, or square to Saturn. No two of those transits are exactly alike, because you're at a different place in life each time and what other transits are going on at the same time will be different each time. But if you study it carefully, you'll see an emerging theme in your Saturn transits. It gets even easier to see in the years after your Saturn return, in my experience.
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Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.

Last edited by Osamenor; 05-19-2020 at 12:43 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 05-19-2020, 01:12 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Actually I do have a broad understanding of what was going on in their lives since we chatted a good bit about each other's life stories. I cannot confirm the age but this person did come to America in their childhood as a child of an immigrant family, cannot confirm if it was at age 7 which makes it tricky.

Now he did tell me his high school years were depressing (14 is freshman high school year in the US I think) because he wanted to play sports but his parents would not let him go to a high school which had sports. The person had a lot of energy that he said went unused and never got his chance to get into athletics due to his parents wanting him away from them. Apparently that was the issue for him that led him to depression in those years, parents wanted him to stay away from sports and athletics and only study while he wanted to be more well-rounded. Said he was at a poor high school and parents did not support him, only held him back.

As for the age of 21, he told me that he remembers his 21st birthday the most of any other because it sucked so much. He came home during the summer for college and said that he spent his 21st birthday with family on vacation, it was miserable. A mother telling him he is no good and a father saying how he is below other kids who have better careers or grades. Said he was very miserable dealing with such toxicity and it ruined his next semester in college, putting him in a depression.

Informed me that he used astrology as one of the ways to be mentally at peace at around the age of 20 or so but it didn't really manifest until he was about 26 or so. He seemed really scared but I didn't know what to tell him.

The chart IMO seems really depressing with the oppositions and full 12th house, I honestly hope he didn't harm himself or anything.
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  #10  
Unread 05-19-2020, 01:20 AM
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post
Informed me that he used astrology as one of the ways to be mentally at peace at around the age of 20 or so but it didn't really manifest until he was about 26 or so. He seemed really scared but I didn't know what to tell him.
That sounds like it might've been triggered by the energies of the waning Saturn square! Especially since Saturn would've squared his sun/Mercury conjunction in the run up to actually making the Saturn square, so the whole thing would've started to be felt a year or so before the actual square. Possibly Uranus as well; Uranus squares its natal position at the of 20-22. This ongoing interest taking time to really manifest could be the seed sprouting.

Saturn return is another seed sown. You (and your friend) might think first of, oh, that was the year I started high school and my parents wouldn't let me play sports, but Saturn tends to work on a deeper level than that. It's not just what's going on around you, but within you. Years later, you can look back on your Saturn return and see what began then, but you probably won't know exactly what's beginning at the time.
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Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
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  #11  
Unread 05-19-2020, 04:48 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
That sounds like it might've been triggered by the energies of the waning Saturn square! Especially since Saturn would've squared his sun/Mercury conjunction in the run up to actually making the Saturn square, so the whole thing would've started to be felt a year or so before the actual square. Possibly Uranus as well; Uranus squares its natal position at the of 20-22. This ongoing interest taking time to really manifest could be the seed sprouting.

Saturn return is another seed sown. You (and your friend) might think first of, oh, that was the year I started high school and my parents wouldn't let me play sports, but Saturn tends to work on a deeper level than that. It's not just what's going on around you, but within you. Years later, you can look back on your Saturn return and see what began then, but you probably won't know exactly what's beginning at the time.
Actually he said that at 26 he moved cities too to the city he wanted to live in since he was 16.

Based on looking at the chart in the link, do you have anything to add for what he might not to worry about? You don't have to really because he might not log on but if he does, maybe he finds something.
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  #12  
Unread 05-19-2020, 10:58 PM
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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Originally Posted by The19thLaw View Post
Based on looking at the chart in the link, do you have anything to add for what he might not to worry about? You don't have to really because he might not log on but if he does, maybe he finds something.
That's a such a complex question to answer that I would only do it in my practice, and I do not do astrological consultations on behalf of third parties. I don't know what's going through your friend's mind. You may be relaying what you understand to be going on with him, but only he knows for sure. Trying to answer in the forum could send us off on a different tangent entirely. And because it's so complex, giving a usable answer would take more of my time than I'm willing to give away.

If your friend is that interested, he can contact me through my website, which is in my signature. But if he hasn't contacted you in months and isn't even visiting this forum, maybe he's moved on from his worry.
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Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
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  #13  
Unread 05-20-2020, 03:47 AM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
That's a such a complex question to answer that I would only do it in my practice, and I do not do astrological consultations on behalf of third parties. I don't know what's going through your friend's mind. You may be relaying what you understand to be going on with him, but only he knows for sure. Trying to answer in the forum could send us off on a different tangent entirely. And because it's so complex, giving a usable answer would take more of my time than I'm willing to give away.

If your friend is that interested, he can contact me through my website, which is in my signature. But if he hasn't contacted you in months and isn't even visiting this forum, maybe he's moved on from his worry.
That's fair.
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  #14  
Unread 05-20-2020, 07:32 AM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

I fully agree with Osamenor that after all this time, your friend has most probably moved on, so whatever we write will most probably not have any effect on him.
However, just as an exercise, I don't understand why you keep referring to this chart as something catastrophic. What is it you see that is so terrible? Just curious. Thanks.
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  #15  
Unread 05-20-2020, 02:48 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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I fully agree with Osamenor that after all this time, your friend has most probably moved on, so whatever we write will most probably not have any effect on him.
However, just as an exercise, I don't understand why you keep referring to this chart as something catastrophic. What is it you see that is so terrible? Just curious. Thanks.
1. Saturn oppositions to a lot of inner planets, it is clearly not going to be a fun Saturn Return for him.

2. 12th house stellium, the 12th house is considered to be a horrible house in astrology associated with isolation from society.

3. 6th house Saturn meaning he will likely have health issues if he has not already.

4. A lot of squares and oppositions, especially Pluto squares with some of his inner planets.

5. Nothing really that favorable in it, while the Saturn might be domiciled along with sun and Pluto (which hardly matters since generational planet), everything else is in an average spot. You even have Jupiter in its detriment with Virgo. I don't see anything in this chart stick out as being something people would want like say an exalted or domiciled Mars, Jupiter, Mercury, and Venus.

Catastrophic was a strong word, just that it does not seem to be a chart with a lot of redeeming features to it. That explains why he had such a tough youth and difficult life.
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  #16  
Unread 05-20-2020, 04:21 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

1) Saturn is opposite the sun/mercury conjunction. Sun is the personality and mercury communication, in Leo, the sign of sun. Mercury is retrograde, so possibly a late talker as a baby and difficulty talking about himself.
Saturn opposing might rob him of his self confidence, making him shy and introverted, more than we might expect from a Leo, especially with a Leo ascendent.
Saturn is in the sign of humanitarian Aquarius, in the 6th of service to others, someone who might feel a universal responsibility towards others, a duty to help humanity. This conflicts with ego-centered Leo.
The 6th is also the house of work, and the sun/mercury conjunction is in the 12th, the house of institutions, hospitals, mental health. Midheaven ruler Venus is also in the 12th, so this indicates a career path for him.
Whenever progressed Saturn makes contact with this natal configuration, he might have a setback that will stimulate his desire to succeed in his chosen field.

2) The 12th house is the house of the subconscious, of looking within to understand oneself. The opposition to Saturn, the father figure, shows us the conflict he has with his father. The 12th is also a spiritual house, ruled by pisces. Religion and spirituality should play an important part in the person's path to self-knowledge. It is the house of introversion, so the planets in Leo that already point to emphasis on the ego, placed in the 12th house ask for examination. And this also puts emphasis on the Saturn opposition in universal-oriented Aquarius.

3) The 6th house is the house of work, service, illness. So this touches just about all of us. Saturn here could indicate a problem with bones, veins, joints. Sooner or later we all have health issues, we just have to understand what they are, where they come from, to resolve them.
With regards to work, Saturn instills a strong sense of duty and responsibility.

4) There is one opposition, already mentioned, between sun/mercury and Saturn.
The aspect between Saturn and Venus is 8 degrees, not very strong.
Pluto squares Venus and Saturn, but not sun/mercury.
This is balanced out by Pluto sextile moon, moon semi-sextile Venus, and the perfect trine between 1st house Jupiter and Neptune/uranus conjunct.
A well balanced chart.

5) Saturn strong by sign, sun strong by sign, Jupiter in exactly the exaltation degree of mercury who is in the house and Face of Jupiter with strong mutual reception. Pluto strong by sign sextile moon and Neptune/uranus.

Note the mercury emphasis in the chart, with the sun conjunction, the reception of Jupiter, Saturn in mercury's house as well as Pluto. A lot of mercury energy happening.

Note lastly, that north node is on the cusp of his creative 5th house, and the south node, of giving and loss, is on the cusp of the 11th of friends. He should take with a grain of salt his friend's advice.
The 19th law, nothing personal, but the best thing he could have done was not get back to you, I think you might have made him suicidal!
Every chart has redeeming features. Every individual has challenges and natural talents. Some of the most successful people in the world have charts that are much more challenged than this one. Challenges and conflict can build strength and resilience.
I'm not criticising you, but when someone has faith and confidence in you, that in itself is a responsibility, and should be handled with love and care, and not devastation. You have to offer them a hand to help rise up, not a rope to hang themselves!
Cheers.
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  #17  
Unread 05-21-2020, 02:05 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

So in other words you are implying his chart is a lot less than ideal but somehow getting mad at me for telling him that it is. I just do not see the chart as being too favorable for him given that he values monetary success a lot in life as well as image and how he is perceived.

A couple favorable things that I did notice is a 2nd house moon and part of fortune there as well as a 10th house mars. The issue is, none of them are in a domiciled or exalt.

IMO, the Saturn oppositions and 12th house stellium just kill this chart.
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Unread 05-21-2020, 02:55 PM
ElenaJ ElenaJ is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

Not at all mad at you! Why should I be?
So what would be an "ideal" chart? Every chart has good and better and difficult.
I would however question giving a completely dire interpretation of what is in reality just a "normal" chart.
Poor friend, he would be devastated, no hope, no way out, doomed by Fate and by his faith in his friend!
With moon on the 2nd cusp we might expect him to have his emotional comfort zone there, with money, and also we understand that this makes him also sensitive about his self image, tied with his self esteem.
Moon is exactly trine the Midheaven, which is an excellent promise of financial success in his field. As well as a good reputation.
For aspects in a natal chart to have a path to successful fruition, they don't necessarily have to be domiciled or exalted.
Also, Saturn is not in orb with Venus, 8 degrees is really too stretched, especially with Saturn retrograde widening the orb.
So this dreadful, killer aspect is really a sun/mercury opposition to Saturn. So?
There are a lot more difficult aspects in charts than this.
I do hope you can begin to see a balance in energy here, and how it can work out in a positive way, rather than summarily issuing a hopeless vision to a person asking for help.
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  #19  
Unread 05-22-2020, 07:25 PM
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

To give anyone astrological help, you need to be in a good enough place yourself. It sounds like you believe you yourself can't have what you want/value, and are fated not to, for one reason or another. That would incline you to see the same in other people.

I struggle with that belief myself. It's coming up for me in a big way right now, too, and I would say that's reflected astrologically by transiting Pluto turning my tight natal t-square into a grand cross, along with Jupiter to blow it up even more. Possibly exacerbated by the current Venus retrograde. But the planets aren't causing those issues, only reflecting them. Rocks swirling around above our heads don't cause our problems. The world does that, and often we exacerbate those problems for ourselves. It's human nature.

But for clients, and people I talk to in this forum, it won't do to give them my problems. What I need to be doing is looking for the medicine in the chart, whether it's my own or someone else's. Birth charts and transits reflect the problems we have, and they show us the ways we can transform them, too.
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Last edited by Osamenor; 05-22-2020 at 07:46 PM.
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  #20  
Unread 07-01-2020, 03:01 PM
The19thLaw The19thLaw is offline
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

So I actually end up catching up with this user towards the end of June. His Saturn return I believe is going to take place next year and he is quite anxious about it. We had a deep conversation that went for almost an hour. Basically now, he has told me that like with a lot of other people, there is a great deal of uncertainty and instability in his life right now.

The other thing he told me was that some of his issues from his late teens and early twenties he feels are resurfacing right now. In some ways, he says he does feel his chart telling him "are you going to learn your lesson this time?".

A big thing we got to is that he told me he had a bad relationship with his dad, had a lot of self-esteem and confidence issues, was very pessimistic, and had a tendency to spread his negativity in a lot of places. It led to him getting fired from a job due to "attitude problems", at times being shouted at in a social group for being so negative, and on social media even being outed years ago as an emo whiner who was always sad.

Well he said that although it is not as bad now, in recent years he still did it. Now he said that very thing he feels has impacted him again, especially on social media. He said he even did it on anonymous online places.

If I am reading it right, will a large part of his Saturn return now consist of him gaining confidence and getting over that bad relationship with his father?
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Unread 07-01-2020, 09:27 PM
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Re: Cannot figure out this chart, user expecting Saturn return soon.

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If I am reading it right, will a large part of his Saturn return now consist of him gaining confidence and getting over that bad relationship with his father?
That could very well happen. At the very least, Saturn, being a father archetype, could indicate confronting his relationship with his father and what it means to him. Maybe confronting the father himself, if he's still alive and your friend has contact with him.

Saturn return is associated with maturing, and maturing naturally means a shift in our relationship with our parents. Some people have become parents themselves by then, or become parents at that time. If they do, then the way they were parented is really going to be front and center for them. Which might mean "aha, I see why my parents did what they did," or might mean, "NO WAY am I ever doing to my kid what my parent(s) did to me!" or might mean any of a number of more complicated thoughts. Plus, that also adds a layer of relating to your parents not only as your parents, but as your child's grandparents.

Another way this might play out is dealing with a parent's illness or death. It won't necessarily happen at Saturn return, but by the time we get to that age, our parents are getting to an age when that's more likely, so there is the very real possibility of that. Those events would also prompt a serious look at a relationship with a parent.

The less flashy but no less meaningful version of that would simply be a shifting of the relationship, with your actual parents if you currently have them present in your life, or at least in your mind. In some cases, though, if the relationship with a parent really has been toxic, that might be the point where you say, "No more, not putting up with this," and cut them off. That's also a very Saturnian thing to do.
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