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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 07-30-2014, 09:17 PM
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ashriia ashriia is offline
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Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

If you have a late degree ascendant... What house system do you prefer, find more accurate for analysis and why?


I use Placidus for my own chart, but it gets confusing sometimes. I feel I should switch to using whole signs again.. but then..I feel that my whole sign chart only tells half of the story, which keeps me with using Placidus.
Then frustration sets in, and I spend time looking at someone else's chart, rather than my own.


so which do you use and why?

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Unread 07-30-2014, 10:20 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashriia View Post
If you have a late degree ascendant...
What house system do you prefer, find more accurate for analysis and why?

I use Placidus for my own chart, but it gets confusing sometimes.
I feel I should switch to using whole signs again.. but then..
I feel that my whole sign chart only tells half of the story, which keeps me with using Placidus.
Then frustration sets in, and I spend time looking at someone else's chart, rather than my own.

so which do you use and why?
No need to choose - use both
by the way, the correct use of Whole Sign is as follows
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post

Cusps:

Today
(and for the past thousand years or so)
we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),
but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":
it means "point"
such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids)
and the point of a sword
-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,
and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";
now, when quadrant systems were developed,
this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning",
which later came to mean its "border",
ie, the "border" between one house and the other.
And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps)
for various prognostic applications
(Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events,
the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this:
in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all,
and never were so regarded!
In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning,
not as a "border"
but rather as A POINT
-and that POINT (cusp)
for EACH house,
was the sensitive point of that house,
viz,
the sensitive point in whole sign houses
-each house-
that is the "cusp" of each house
-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.


Example:

-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus:
what are the house cusps
(sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp")
in the whole sign houses of this chart?

Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps"
(sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point")
that are
(and were)
used for progressions, timing of events, etc,
and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well
(in expert hands)
Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses
(always 0 degree of any sign) for anything,
but it DOES use "cusps"
(points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing
(and other)
delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished
(both in the West and in Vedic astrology)
during the same period of time
-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-
this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices,
rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign)
by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West,
and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?"
(if old time astrologers did or didn't do something)
For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
-it worked better
(FOR ME)
I could care less if it were the oldest house system
(which it is)
or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me
(ie, does it "feel right" to me)

-and, if yes to the above,
does it work
(producing delineations and predicitions)
better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched;
but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it,
except for beginners
-to you who might just be starting out, I would say:
try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
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  #3  
Unread 07-31-2014, 02:53 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

I use Placidus.

Why?

First reason... It's what I started with (after Porphyry, the system I used before I had access to tables of houses), got used to.

Second reason... It has proven itself to me over the years (since 1972 when I first began using it). I test it by observing transits and horary charts.

I like quadrant houses because they create intercepted signs, and I find these very instructive in interpretation.
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Unread 07-31-2014, 08:08 PM
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Re: Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
I use Placidus.

Why?

First reason... It's what I started with (after Porphyry, the system I used before I had access to tables of houses), got used to.

Second reason... It has proven itself to me over the years (since 1972 when I first began using it). I test it by observing transits and horary charts.

I like quadrant houses because they create intercepted signs, and I find these very instructive in interpretation.
I guess my main problem is cusps can be confusing. If I take my own chart as an example. My ascendant is 29 degrees gemini. My 1st house then should be gemini obviously. But gemini holds much of in my 12th house. with just one degree hanging out on the horizon. So my first house by "looks" alone... seems to be in cancer. I've always had problems with this issue. maybe I am making it more complicated then it needs to be.. But if someone reads my chart they say gemini rules my 1st house. cancer my 2nd... and so on.

I understand that this is step one in the basics of astrology. Reading someone else's chart is often so much easier than interpreting my own because of the cusp issues i have in understanding my own! Determining just which house a planet is transiting is a bit of a f**kin' headache. ya know? I feel like I have brain fog or something.
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Unread 08-01-2014, 02:01 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

If you find Placidus consfusing, then why not use Whole Sign houses?

Determine the Ascending Sign. That entire sign is the First House. No confusion.

The degree of the Ascendant becomes what we might call a critical degree (not to be confused with the traditional critical degrees), so that in each sign the 29th degree, in your particular case, holds special power (because it is "in aspect" [a harmonic relationship] to the Ascending degree.)

I think your most important chore, given your "confusion", is to end that confusion. There is no single "right" system of domification. Choose one that suits you and stick with it in full confidence.

Reading your own chart as against someone else's should offer no extraordinary problems, except for one thing... It is "me" we are talking about and our personal defense mechanisms are let loose. We hesitate to see ourselves as we really are.

If you have established mastery of the fundamental symbol systems and doctrine of astrology, and if you apply this knowledge in a disciplined and methodical manner (consistence), then any horoscope is open to your basic understanding. Like many other astrologers, I find that my own chart is continually and endlessly taking on new dimensions. Life, and our understanding, is a continuous process.

We should keep in mind that astrology is, in its bare bones, a system of thought. It is a system that, of its own nature, brings discipline and order to our thought processes, a framework on which we hang our rational and intuitive powers. There is nothing inherently "true" about astrology. The planets are "real". But the signs and houses are arbitrary constructions.

Take the sidereal and tropical zodiacs as an example. The sky surrounds on every hand. We need some system of measurement, some way to order this vastness (we face the same problem in our attempts to make sense of the universe in which we liive and breathe.) So we sit down together, puff on our hookah, think and talk. Some among us say that our system of measurement should have as its point of beginning some fixed (unmoving) star, say Spica. Others vote for the equinox that marks the beginning of the boreal spring -- when the Sun is exactly on the equator. In both cases we are establishing a convention for measuring the heavens. [The "meanings" of the signs is immaterial at this point.]

How about sign rulerships? We give dominion of Leo to Sun (July and August are hot), of Cancer to Moon... and then give each of the signs to the planets in their orbital order outward from Sun. Amazing, and completely artificial (or arbitrary) order is imposed on the universe by the mind of man. What we have done is that we have taken the natural order of things (orbital distance in this example) and used it to order our own minds. We have created an ordered system of thought, based on our observation of natural order, and expanded it so that the same order can be applied to other affairs or interests.

The planets have no influence over us, not in the sense of emanating some force that acts upon us. All things, on all levels and throughout the universe, are interconnected. Modern science calls it entanglement. Nothing stands alone; all things -- as disparate as they may seem -- are One.

Last edited by greybeard; 08-01-2014 at 02:36 AM.
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Unread 08-02-2014, 05:51 AM
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Re: Late Degree Asc- What do you Prefer Whole Signs or Placidus?

Indecision is in my astro dna. I feel like with the whole sign chart I am missing something in the story. Regardless of placidus being confusing I want understand it. It's really just that one issue I have. But i'm understanding it a bit better now. I've only been studying astrology, in depth, for 6 years. I have heard some of our forum members talk changing house systems after 10 sometimes 20 years.. i'll just fiddle with both for now. Your informative and always philosophical posts- much appreciated. Thanks!
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