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  #576  
Unread 04-03-2020, 09:13 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Waybread, cherem can definitely be translated as a curse, as was by the LXX translation and the apostle John in Revelation 22:3 (curse for destruction is implied). The ''Birkat'' HaMinim itself is a dooming unto destruction, so either way we are talking about the same thing.
John in Revelation wasn't writing in Hebrew. I'm not aware of any groups who still say the Birkat HaMinim as it was written during the early history of Christianity. Possibly some do, but they would have to be a slim minority.

Are you OK with David wishing horrible things on his Philistine enemies?

We could compare this with all of the invective heaped upon Jews by Christians, starting with "Christ killers" (although crucifixion was a Roman, not Jewish method of execution.) Then we could move onto acts of violence and death, with all of the anti-Jewish riots like the pogroms of eastern Europe. (These notably took place around Easter, with the malicious Blood Libel. We could move onto Jewish exile from Britain. When Shakespeare wrote the evil characature of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice there were no Jews living in England. How about exile or torture in Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella, moving on to the utterly false Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and winding up with those Christians who knowingly participated in the Holocaust?

The balance of who did what or said what to which people throughout the course of history is enormously lopsided.

Quote:
''Panarion 29:9 by Epiphanius of Salamis (c. 315-403) [He is considered a Church Father, and the Panarion is a compilation of heresies.]

No only do Jewish people have a hatred of [the Nazoreans]; they even stand up at dawn, at midday, and toward evening, three times a day when they recite their prayers in the synagogues, and curse and anathematize them. Three times a day they say, "God curse the Nazoraeans." For they harbor an extra grudge against them, if you please, because despite their Jewishness, they preach that Jesus is the Christ--the opposite of those who are still Jews, for they have not accepted Jesus.'' - https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/1268?lang=bi
You don't suppose the good Father was biased, do you? You don't suppose he thought the Jews killed Jesus, absolving the Romans of any responsibility?

Quote:
Echad just means one as the number one in every language.
It means the numeral one, but it has important additional meanings. If you hear football fans chanting, "We're number one!" what does that mean? Please read this: https://www.myjewishlearning.com/art...-64-the-shema/

(Interestingly in doing what I thought would be a quick Google search I had to go through two pages of Christian and Jews for Jesus materials before finding it.)

Quote:
I haven't noticed a contradiction between the commandments for levirate marriages.
Check out Henry VIII and his efforts to divorce his first wife Catherine of Aragon on the grounds of levirate marriage. This ultimately led to the Reformation in England-- and years of Protestant-Christian bloodshed..

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  #577  
Unread 04-03-2020, 09:40 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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How many theologians can dance on the head of a pin?
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  #578  
Unread 04-03-2020, 09:44 PM
petosiris petosiris is online now
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Yes, I approve of anyone praying for or doing a destruction of someone, provided there is moral justification for it.

The Jews murdered Christ by the hands of lawless men. Hitler murdered 6 millions Jews solely by the hands of others too.

I am not familiar with the case of Henry VIII, but most Christians can't keep the letter of the Law. I was asking where is a biblical contradiction.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-03-2020 at 10:29 PM.
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  #579  
Unread 04-03-2020, 09:48 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Yes, Jews for Jesus, Dr. Michael Brown and many of the Hebrew roots movement are claiming that one in the Shema means compound one, because of ''one grapes'', which is sheer nonsense since they are transferring the meaning of the noun (bunch of grapes) to the numeral, and saying that the one in the Shema means ''compound unity''. Abraham was one in Ez. 33:24 - he was one single person. Theirs is a neoplatonic/gnostic/kabbalistic ''one'', not biblical one.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-03-2020 at 10:31 PM.
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  #580  
Unread 04-03-2020, 09:59 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Yes, I am ok with anyone wishing a destruction of someone, provided there is justification for it.

The Jews murdered Christ by the hands of lawless men. Hitler murdered 6 millions Jews solely by the hands of others too.

I am not familiar with the case of Henry VIII, but most Christians can't keep the letter of the Law. I was asking for a biblical contradiction.
The Romans murdered him. The Pharisees who asked them to weren't even the ruling Party of Judea, just one of several competing sects. Plus, it was all part of God's plan, so God caused it to happen. Was God obeying the Pharisees?

The "Jews", as you prefer to call the Judeans, weren't ALL Pharisee-supporters. Saying "the Jews murdered Christ" is like saying "THE Christians tortured and murdered people during the Inquisition". It's called "painting with too broad a brush".
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  #581  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:02 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The Romans murdered him. The Pharisees who asked them to weren't even the ruling Party of Judea, just one of several competing sects. Plus, it was all part of God's plan, so God caused it to happen. Was God obeying the Pharisees?

The "Jews", as you prefer to call the Judeans, weren't ALL Pharisee-supporters. Saying "the Jews murdered Christ" is like saying "THE Christians tortured and murdered people during the Inquisition". It's called "painting with too broad a brush".
We talked about this in the Random Thoughts thread a couple weeks ago, remember - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...24143&page=414 ?

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The Sanhedrin couldn't execute anyone during the Roman occupation in a biblical trial. This is a well established historical fact and is also recorded in the Gospels - John 18:31. The Pharisees made it impossible to convict a murderer or an adulterer* by insisting on near impossible amount of evidence, only in order to be able to turn the criminal to the Romans, because the latter forbade it. It was the Jews who turned Jesus to the Romans though, which is why Peter in Acts 2 preached ''Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know — this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.''
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It is a collective sin that was shared by the nation so that Jerusalem with the Temple was destroyed in 40 days as Jonah prophesied, yes individually some share a greater guilt, for example Caiaphas, Judas and the crowd that shouted for crucifixion compared to Mary the mother of Jesus, Joseph of Arimathea and the disciples of Jesus.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-03-2020 at 10:05 PM.
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  #582  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
We talked about this in the Random Thoughts thread a couple weeks ago, remember - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...24143&page=414 ?
Was it part of God's plan or not? If so, then God made it happen, not "the Jews".
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  #583  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:07 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Was it part of God's plan or not? If so, then God made it happen, not "the Jews".
God predestined it to happen through someone, the Jews entered the plan by their own free will. - Matthew 27:25
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  #584  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:13 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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God predestined it to happen through someone, the Jews entered the plan by their own free will. - Matthew 27:25
Should "they" have refused to go along with their God's plan? Disobeyed God?
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  #585  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:16 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

"They", meaning ONLY the Pharisees and their supporters--not ALL the Judeans, as you continue to (wrongly) assert.

Last edited by david starling; 04-03-2020 at 10:23 PM.
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  #586  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:24 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Should "they" have refused to go along with their God's plan? Disobeyed God?
God doesn't harden hearts, blind eyes or give people to Satan as some may think, that is - without reference to their previous choices.
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  #587  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:25 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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God doesn't harden hearts, blind eyes or give people to Satan as some may think, that is - without reference to their previous choices.
Didn't God harden Pharoah's heart?
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  #588  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:26 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Didn't God harden Pharoah's heart?
Did you really read my comment?
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  #589  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:28 PM
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Actually, you deflected: If it was God's preordained Plan, then it was God, and God alone, who made it happen.
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  #590  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:32 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Actually, you deflected: If it was God's preordained Plan, then it was God, and God alone, who made it happen.
Read my comment and think a bit harder, I can't help more than that.
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  #591  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:38 PM
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Read my comment and think a bit harder, I can't help more than that.
It's a no-brainer. Unless....wait, isn't God both Omniscient AND Omnipotent?
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  #592  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:48 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It's a no-brainer. Unless....wait, isn't God both Omniscient AND Omnipotent?
He is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect in wisdom, reason, justice, mercy and all good qualities one can think of. That is why we can be sure that he predestines events according to his perfect qualities and foreknowledge, including Isaiah 53:10.
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  #593  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:53 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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He is omniscient, omnipotent and perfect in wisdom, reason, justice, mercy and all good qualities one can think of. That is why we can be sure that he predestines events according to his perfect qualities and foreknowledge, including Isaiah 53:10.
So, God predestined the murder of Christ. And, Christ rose from the dead and shook it off. No real harm done!
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  #594  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:57 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Who was Hypatia, and why did the Christians at the time in charge of the local community of Christians, torture her and brutally murder her?


Uhm, pardon me, but maybe he is a she - regarding Omnipotence, etc.



She was, in her time, the world’s leading mathematician and astronomer, the only woman for whom such claim can be made. She was also a popular teacher and lecturer on philosophical topics of a less-specialist nature, attracting many loyal students and large audiences. Her philosophy was Neoplatonist and was thus seen as “pagan” at a time of bitter religious conflict between Christians (both orthodox and “heretical”), Jews, and pagans


****Her Neoplatonism was concerned with the approach to the One, an underlying reality partially accessible via the human power of abstraction from the Platonic forms, themselves abstractions from the world of everyday reality.



Seems to be ever since Religion was created by men, there has been nothing but infighting and outfighting, killings, murders, tortures, name calling, you name it, all for the sake of preserving one's own idea of a god.



Such horror! I bet dollars to doughnuts, Jesus would not approve of such ego smashing tactics.



(just a personal insight I have)



IF any student of astrology of Philosophy has not seen the movie on Hypatia's life, they really are missing something imo:


See what some of these Christians and even a so-called Saint today, did to this dear woman, just for her intelligence and teachings:
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Hypatia



Quote:
Hypatia was the daughter of Theon of Alexandria, himself a mathematician and astronomer and the last attested member of the Alexandrian Museum (see Researcher’s Note: Hypatia’s birth date). Theon is best remembered for the part he played in the preservation of Euclid’s Elements, but he also wrote extensively, commenting on Ptolemy’s Almagest and Handy Tables. Hypatia continued his program, which was essentially a determined effort to preserve the Greek mathematical and astronomical heritage in extremely difficult times. She is credited with commentaries on Apollonius of Perga’s Conics (geometry) and Diophantus of Alexandria’s Arithmetic (number theory), as well as an astronomical table (possibly a revised version of Book III of her father’s commentary on the Almagest)

The movie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)
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  #595  
Unread 04-03-2020, 10:58 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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So, God predestined the murder of Christ. And, Christ rose from the dead and shook it off. No real harm done!
Very funny Satan

You will not escape the fire
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  #596  
Unread 04-03-2020, 11:01 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Who was Hypatia, and why did the Christians at the time in charge of the local community of Christians, torture her and brutally murder her?
Because Christians made an alliance with the fourth beast which used to persecute and murder Christians for not sacrificing to idols?
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  #597  
Unread 04-03-2020, 11:06 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Hypatia, a mathematician, philosopher and astronomer in late 4th-century Roman Egypt, who investigates the flaws of the geocentric Ptolemaic system and the heliocentric model that challenges it. Surrounded by religious turmoil and social unrest, Hypatia struggles to save the knowledge of classical antiquity from destruction.

Imagine - and they destroyed scrolls and precious knowledge in books, to create the first Church's formal religious doctrines as well people's lives; once again, prior to the Council of Nicea.



I'd say those souls who do such things have "blood on their hand" and a blotted soul because of it.


The Trailer for "Agora":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT95WHihc0E
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  #598  
Unread 04-03-2020, 11:09 PM
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Very funny Satan

You will not escape the fire
You're espousing a Satanic doctrine! Although, I would consider it a "Saturnian" point of view from an astrological perspective. Not really unusual--there are LOTS of Saturn-worshippers in the world today of all sorts, and feeling RIGHTEOUS about it.
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  #599  
Unread 04-04-2020, 01:41 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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How many theologians can dance on the head of a pin?
It depends. Line dancing or Irish step dancing?
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  #600  
Unread 04-04-2020, 02:28 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Yes, I approve of anyone praying for or doing a destruction of someone, provided there is moral justification for it.

The Jews murdered Christ by the hands of lawless men. Hitler murdered 6 millions Jews solely by the hands of others too.

I am not familiar with the case of Henry VIII, but most Christians can't keep the letter of the Law. I was asking where is a biblical contradiction.
This is a horrible calumny. It is anti-semitic. If you read the Gospels' versions of the last days of Jesus-- in the historical context of Roman rule of Israel (Palestine)-- even allowing for a pro-Christian bias by the Gospel authors (writing after the death of Jesus,) you will realize that the Roman rulers of Israel-- not a supposed Jewish mob-- had the life and death of Jesus in their hands. Why didn't the Roman authorities of Palestine save Jesus?

If you want proof-texts, we can discuss them. Briefly, however, Jesus deliberately set forth his life to fulfill the Jewish scriptural traditions about the Messiah. Had he not died on the cross, there would be no supreme sacrifice for your sins, and no Resurrection. Easter would be meaningless. Jesus fulfilled his destiny of sacrifice only by dying tragically as a human, vs. dying decades later of natural causes, of a ripe old age. Jesus would sit on the right hand of God the Father eventually, as His only begotten son, after all.

A really intriguing Gnostic gospel in this regard is the Gospel of Judas, edited by Gnostic scholars Elaine Pagels and Karen King. According to this text, Judas actually understood what Jesus was asking of him, and was willing to go down in infamy for generations in order to assist his Master to complete his destiny as human sacrifice. The "betrayal" of Judas was actually his own supreme sacrifice so that Jesus' beliefs about his unique destiny could be fulfilled.

Put this way, if we go back to the OT prophet's verses about the suffering servant that you cited earlier, Jesus would have been familiar with them and would have organized his life in order to fulfill them.

When you talk about the Holocaust perpetrated "at the hands of others," whom exactly do you mean? Which "others"? Did some of them understand themselves to be Lutherans? Catholics?

Petosiris, re: levirate marriage, just look up in your Bible whether a brother of a deceased brother should or should not marry his late brother's widow. Then you could read up on the religious crisis caused by England's Henry VIII wanting to divorce Catherine of Aragon (his brother's widow) to marry Anne Boleyn.

Is there ever a "moral justification" for praying for anyone's destruction??

God does not want the death of the sinner. He wants the sinner to repent. Ezekiel 18:23. Micah 7:18
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