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  #426  
Unread 03-29-2020, 06:25 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Exactly so. In the beginning, the "gods" came down to earth. The creator God speaks to them: "Let us make man in our image and after our likeness."

Elohim-- a Hebrew plural-- has merely been explained away by theologians uncomfortable with the plural concept.

As you know, the Bible borrows from older sources of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the Levant. Elohim described the Canaanite pantheon, with El as the patriarch god. There are passages throughout the OT that attest to the belief in the actual existence of other gods. Jews, however, are told not to worship them. Then what are angels, cherubim, seraphim, and Satan (in whom you believe)?
But the Commandment doesn't say "thou shalt not worship other gods".
It says "thou shalt have no other gods before me".

It definitely doesn't deny the existence of other gods. That came much later.

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  #427  
Unread 03-29-2020, 10:11 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Ruth, is an interesting book.

Naomi and her husband travel because of famine, taking their two sons with them to Moab. The sons marry, one to Ruth one to Orpah. Naomi's husband, and their two sons die, of undisclosed circumstances. Naomi tells her daughters in law to stay in Moab, with their families and friends. Ruth cannot leave her to be alone. She insists on going with her, to care for her in her old age. She becomes a gleaner. A gleaner is a person, that while the harvest is happening, comes along behind, and can pick up the grain that the main harvesters miss. Boaz, is impressed with her style, and work ethic. He asks his servant who she is, and why she is gleaning. Gleaning was for the poor. Then he directs his servant to make sure that there is grain for her to glean. He asks her to partake of the food that he has prepared. And she returns to Naomi with food for them both. Boaz is smitten, and although it is not okay, he decrees and marries Ruth. Although the marriage is short lived, as he dies shortly thereafter.

I have always seen it as a story of doing the best you can at whatever you do. Of taking care of the poor, and the elderly.

Also, in Ruth, there is the saying "Thy people will be my people, thy God, my God" said by Ruth to Naomi, when convincing her that she would follow her to Bethlehem.

To me it is a book about Charity.

Last edited by Opal; 03-29-2020 at 10:16 AM.
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  #428  
Unread 03-29-2020, 12:34 PM
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Oh Opal that is interesting.
Didn’t know Adonis hung out with Persephone and was annually resurrected.
https://phoenicia.org/adonis.html
Actually, really, really interesting link for me. Thank you!

Waybread, you asked me once where I got the information on the Venus cult, where women prostituted themselves, for they were to turn one trick before they were permitted to marry. I still haven’t found the book that it was in. But read Passiflora’s link!

Thanks again Passiflora! Cool!😘
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  #429  
Unread 03-29-2020, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Opal View Post
Actually, really, really interesting link for me. Thank you!

Waybread, you asked me once where I got the information on the Venus cult, where women prostituted themselves, for they were to turn one trick before they were permitted to marry. I still haven’t found the book that it was in. But read Passiflora’s link!

Thanks again Passiflora! Cool!😘
Glad you like it! It has a lot of interesting information; historically religion seems syncretic and adaptable, and alive. I found it while looking around after your earlier post, to understand the linguistic connection between Adonis and Adonai.
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  #430  
Unread 03-29-2020, 07:46 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

The Messiah is never called Adonai.
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  #431  
Unread 03-29-2020, 07:47 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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But the Commandment doesn't say "thou shalt not worship other gods".
It says "thou shalt have no other gods before me".

It definitely doesn't deny the existence of other gods. That came much later.
Why would he forbid their worship as the most immoral of sins? He was way ahead of atheists.
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  #432  
Unread 03-29-2020, 08:08 PM
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The Messiah is never called Adonai.
Adonai refers to "the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
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  #433  
Unread 03-29-2020, 08:22 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Adonai refers to "the Lord our God, the Lord is One.
The Masoretes read Adoni (my lord) in Psalm 110:1, which is never used of God. Jesus is the one Lord Messiah not the one Lord God. In the NT, he is the Anointed of the Lord - Luke 2:26.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-29-2020 at 08:30 PM.
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  #434  
Unread 03-29-2020, 08:57 PM
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The Masoretes read Adoni (my lord) in Psalm 110:1, which is never used of God. Jesus is the one Lord Messiah not the one Lord God. In the NT, he is the Anointed of the Lord - Luke 2:26.
"Melchizedec" seems to be involved.
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  #435  
Unread 03-29-2020, 09:03 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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"Melchizedec" seems to be involved.
He is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. He is lord to his father David as his king and saviour who is going to give him eternal life.
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  #436  
Unread 03-29-2020, 11:14 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

We can't discuss God's gender because we can't even see him naked with our own eyes
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  #437  
Unread 03-29-2020, 11:41 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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We can't discuss God's gender because we can't even see him naked with our own eyes
We can't see God, but we can see, feel and hear what his holy spirit tells us through the prophets, apostles and holy ones. It is the visible power and personal presence of God. ''When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.'' - Acts 2

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  #438  
Unread 03-30-2020, 04:00 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I believe Moses wrote the Torah.

I think you missed the Messiah and the judges who are also called Elohim. People should know that beings other than God can be called god, while at the same time saying that there is only one God and no other.

I don't believe the scriptures call them gods literally, but entirely metaphorically, and I read the whole books, which are filled with references to the unitary monotheism of the Jews.

Although God in Gen. 1:26 may have spoken to angels or to his personified wisdom, or with a ''royal we'', in the very next verse Gen. 1:27 we learn that he did all by himself. Your teachers have a wise saying about this - that whenever a heretic comes to you with a verse, you should just read the next verse.
Oh, no, Petosiris. Here you go on again about "my teachers." You simply are incorrect. Thankfully you believe these imaginative beings had something wise to say. If you wish to get particular about the grammatical distinctions between plural and singular, recall my one teacher 47 years ago.

Why is your insistence on my alleged "teachers" so important to you? Is the implication that the student is incapable of moving beyond her basic lessons?

Or is it, conversely, that the student implicitly adopts whatever her teachers tell her? In which case, how do you understand my being secular for the last 24 years or so? Would rabbis have told me to do that?

Who were your teachers?

I hope you will read up on biblical criticism. As I explained in a previous post, this doesn't mean trashing the Bible, but is a centuries-old type of scholarship that works more like philology.

The belief that "Moses wrote the Torah" is traditional, but not borne out by biblical scholarship.

The first two books of Genesis were written by different authors. J (sometimes called "Yahwist," because the letter J in German is pronounced like an English Y,) and E (sometimes called "Elohist." after their different names for God: Elohim and the unpronounceable Hebrew name spelled by the Hebrew letters yod-he-vav-he.) These textual differences. have been associated with the different scriptural traditions of the people of Judah and Israel (Jacob.) At some point when the Bible was finally codified, the editor (possibly the scribe Ezra) simply let the two traditions stand together.

Then we have to think of the definition of a god. A divine supernatural immortal being, whether real or imagined, possibly having power over people or an aspect of nature? Bingo.

What went into the Bible and how it came to be written makes a fascinating history. A religion just doesn't happen in a cultural vacuum. It comes out of precursors. The parallels between themes in the OT and earlier Babylonian, Egyptian, and Levantine religions are striking. Prior to the development of Judaism the paramount father god of the Levant region was El, with the Elohim as the pantheon.

Also, I don't know if you are familiar with the Midrash, a big collection of biblical folklore and commentary. According to Midrash, it took a nature-worshiping Abraham a sojourn in a cave to discover his monotheism. Then we have Rachel in Genesis 31:30-35, sitting on her father's stolen household idols to prevent them from being taken from her. We have the feminine figure of Hochma (Sophia, Wisdom) present with God during the creation in Proverbs.

See Psalm 89, on "heavenly beings", which also has an alternative Creation account, derived from the Babylonian myth of Marduk, where the world is created when He strikes down the chaotic sea monster, Rahab. (Also in Is. 51:9.)

There is a lot of polytheism in the Bible, actually; including with deities accorded reality. But the distinction is that only God is to be worshiped with undivided loyalty.
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Last edited by waybread; 03-30-2020 at 04:05 AM.
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  #439  
Unread 03-30-2020, 04:27 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The Messiah is never called Adonai.
Judaism has many names for God, mostly circumlocutions, because the actual personal name of God was too sacred to be pronounced by any but the high priest in the Jerusalem temple. We actually don't know how the Hebrew letters" Yod-He-Vav-He were pronounced, but Christian authors are OK with guesses like "Jehovah."

Ba'al was a Canaanite deity, but God is also called Ba'al, meaning "Master." (Ba'al Olam, usually translated as "King of the Universe.") In the Shema prayer, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One (or the Lord alone.") The words are Adonai for Lord, and Elohenu for "our God."

In English we do the same thing. "The Lord" means "God" but is the same word as one's lord in a feudal system. (Cf. the Creator, Providence, one's Maker.)
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  #440  
Unread 03-30-2020, 06:25 AM
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The Masoretes read Adoni (my lord) in Psalm 110:1, which is never used of God. Jesus is the one Lord Messiah not the one Lord God. In the NT, he is the Anointed of the Lord - Luke 2:26.
"Adonai" means "Lord", not necessarily the "Lord God". So, it's accurate to use it in the context of "Jesus is Lord".
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  #441  
Unread 03-30-2020, 07:00 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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"Adonai" means "Lord", not necessarily the "Lord God". So, it's accurate to use it in the context of "Jesus is Lord".
Incorrect. Adonai always means the deity Lord and adon/adoni always means a non-deity lord. Greek and English have the same word for both but the vowels differentiate by using the plural of majesty or the singular form.
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  #442  
Unread 03-30-2020, 07:08 AM
david starling david starling is online now
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Incorrect. Adonai always means the deity Lord and adon/adoni always means a non-deity lord. Greek and English have the same word for both but the vowels differentiate by using the plural of majesty or the singular form.
Then, why the inclusion of "Elohainu" in the Shema?
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  #443  
Unread 03-30-2020, 07:17 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Then, why the inclusion of "Elohainu" in the Shema?
I don't understand your question. The Shema doesn't say Adonai, but the name YHVH. Jews replace it with Adonai because of late rabbinic tradition. The LXX and NT use Lord (kurios) because of the impossibility or impiety of transliteration.

All that being said, the lord of David is a unique lord in his own right and authority - Matthew 28:18.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-30-2020 at 07:24 AM.
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  #444  
Unread 03-30-2020, 07:26 AM
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I don't understand your question. The Shema doesn't say Adonai, but the name YHVH. Jews replace it with Adonai because of late rabbinic tradition. The LXX and NT use Lord (kurios) because of the impossibility or impiety of transliteration.
Sure it does. It's recited by Jews as "Adonai/Elohenu, Adonai/Echad".

Christians prefer their version. No surprise there!

Last edited by david starling; 03-30-2020 at 07:43 AM.
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  #445  
Unread 03-30-2020, 07:56 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

If they read it as it is written, it would sound like the "Christian guess" except with y and stress at the last syllable. Nehemia Gordon a Karaite Jew and Hebrew scholar reads and pronounces it that way. He doesn't think there is qere perpetuum.

Last edited by petosiris; 03-30-2020 at 08:03 AM.
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  #446  
Unread 03-30-2020, 08:20 AM
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If they read it as it is written, it would sound like the "Christian guess" except with y and stress at the last syllable. Nehemia Gordon a Karaite Jew and Hebrew scholar reads and pronounces it that way. He doesn't think there is qere perpetuum.
Some 500-600 Karaites served in the Wehrmacht and the SS. Apparently, Himmler only hated the Talmudic Judeans.
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  #447  
Unread 03-30-2020, 09:47 AM
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Looking up the Karaites, never having heard of them, they're considered "Jews" in the State of Israel, even though they are at odds with the Talmudic Rabbis. They totally reject Jesus as Messiah, and most even reject him as a Prophet.
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  #448  
Unread 03-30-2020, 01:06 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Oh Opal that is interesting.
Didn’t know Adonis hung out with Persephone and was annually resurrected.
https://phoenicia.org/adonis.html
Waybread

Check out this link, we talked of this before, something I read in one of my books, and I can't find which book. You had asked the source. I had read on "The Venus Cult". I think you will find this link of Passiflora's interesting.

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  #449  
Unread 03-30-2020, 04:56 PM
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Why has goddess worship become so devalued, whereas the male-oriented religions have become overwhelmingly dominant?

It's okay to say that God is "above" gender. And, although it upsets many who value the feminine principle, it's still commonly and generally accepted that God is strictly masculine. But, dare to say that God is of the female gender, and be prepared for being called weird, crazy, or even blasphemous!

Last edited by david starling; 03-30-2020 at 05:09 PM.
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  #450  
Unread 03-30-2020, 06:27 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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I don't understand your question. The Shema doesn't say Adonai, but the name YHVH. Jews replace it with Adonai because of late rabbinic tradition. The LXX and NT use Lord (kurios) because of the impossibility or impiety of transliteration.

All that being said, the lord of David is a unique lord in his own right and authority - Matthew 28:18.
Here is a transliteration of the first line. "Shema, Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad."

Using the personal name of God was never part of the Shema prayer. Again, Judaism arose out of different traditions: Elohistic, Yahwist, priestly, rabbinical, Sephardic, Ashkenazi, and so on. But it's in the Torah that the personal name of God was not to be used by any but the high priest in the ancient Jerusalem Temple, and then only in the Holy of Holies (inner sanctum) on Yom Kippur. Since the destruction of the Temple, there just isn't any way to know how it should be pronounced.

Old worn out Torah scrolls or places where the tetragrammaton is written are not to be destroyed. A truly observant Jew will not write out yod-he-vav-he, out of concern that it might be destroyed. S/he will also spell the English word God as G-d as a circumlocution.

Basically the principle in Judaism is that the written law (Torah) is given, but its meaning is sometimes uncertain; and that regardless, one "puts a fence around it" so that one cannot violate it even accidentally. Hence all of the seemingly incomprehensible rules that an Orthodox Jew will follow.
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