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  #26  
Unread 12-29-2018, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Starsareround View Post
Saturn conjunct Pluto
Wish I have this within Close Orb.
Mine is Exalted Saturn Conjunct Pluto Square Mercury.
Mercury Conjunct with bad *** Rahu/NN.
I''m only emotional rather than rational or intelligent.
In layman's terms I'm a Fool in Real/Practical World.

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  #27  
Unread 12-29-2018, 03:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
@Starsarearound regarding your charts...

The first person's Mars is very badly aspected. Square Sun and Mercury. I think this indicates motor skill problems. He is pretty clumsy and crude. Moon in Aries and in 5H also manages to retain the childlike quality. But he has a good amount of 11H for brain capacity.

And the second person, a classic case of Saturn square Mercury and Sun. That, and 6H Saturn give him some practicality to solve problems. He also has a loaded 6H.
You are spot on with the first chart! He may be able to develop AI but he can’t change a light bulb. Like I said I know him well so I feel able to tease him on a astrology forum
Second chart is my love. I hugely admire his determination and problem solving. He admires my abstract thought. Or whatever my thought style is. But his focus and practicality is impressive. He’s pretty young yet leads a team of engineers who all have more experience than him and they trust his knowledge and authority.
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Unread 12-29-2018, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Starsareround View Post
You are spot on with the first chart! He may be able to develop AI but he can’t change a light bulb. Like I said I know him well so I feel able to tease him on a astrology forum
Second chart is my love. I hugely admire his determination and problem solving. He admires my abstract thought. Or whatever my thought style is. But his focus and practicality is impressive. He’s pretty young yet leads a team of engineers who all have more experience than him and they trust his knowledge and authority.
Second person: Mars conj Mercury in Leo and opposite Jupiter. I'm not surprised that he ends up being in an authority role. Mercury opposite Jupiter indicates an ability to inspire faith to others, like a preacher. Mars opposite Jupiter gives tremendous faith in action. He appears very confident to his colleague and they trust him. Looks like a typical Fire-type intelligence.

The stereotyped "genius who can't type his shoe" may lend itself to the fact that the genius is better at working on abstract concept than things that require motor skills. The first person's chart is devoid of earth, meaning lacking practicality. He is better working as an "idea guy" than someone who actually gets his hands dirty. I hope with his Saturn conj MC in Leo, he has enough authority to get people to work on things in the large scheme that he can't do.

My Mars squares make me quite clumsy too, and for a long time I thought it was an indication of stupidity. Now I know there is a difference.

Last edited by Gemini888; 12-29-2018 at 04:09 AM.
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  #29  
Unread 12-29-2018, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
Second person: Mars conj Mercury in Leo and opposite Jupiter. I'm not surprised that he ends up being in an authority role. Mercury opposite Jupiter indicates an ability to inspire faith to others, like a preacher. Mars opposite Jupiter gives tremendous faith in action. He appears very confident to his colleague and they trust him. Looks like a typical Fire-type intelligence.

The stereotyped "genius who can't type his shoe" may lend itself to the fact that the genius is better at working on abstract concept than things that require motor skills. The first person's chart is devoid of earth, meaning lacking practicality. He is better working as an "idea guy" than someone who actually gets his hands dirty. I hope with his Saturn conj MC in Leo, he has enough authority to get people to work on things in the large scheme that he can't do.

My Mars squares make me quite clumsy too, and for a long time I thought it was an indication of stupidity. Now I know there is a difference.
Ha! He is kinda like a preacher. When I first met him 3 years ago he kind of swooped down and said “this life you have isn’t good enough for you, let’s get you a better life” then he proceeded to help me fix it by “teaching (me) how to fish” He’s a very rare, kind of generous spirit who is so good at his own stuff, he gravitates toward helping others.

The other chart....I know he will eventually be able to work with other people on projects but that has been difficult for him his whole life.
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  #30  
Unread 12-29-2018, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post
Wish I have this within Close Orb.
Mine is Exalted Saturn Conjunct Pluto Square Mercury.
Mercury Conjunct with bad *** Rahu/NN.
I''m only emotional rather than rational or intelligent.
In layman's terms I'm a Fool in Real/Practical World.
I would say that may be a gift in its own right. You may not see it now, but someday you may have a deep emotional intelligence.
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  #31  
Unread 12-29-2018, 06:43 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

LOL I was just about to write a forum about something similar.

But my 2 cents:

In vedic astrology, in more specificly jaimani:
If your atmakaraka(highest degree planet) and/or AC lord is in the 3rd, 5th, or 6th house or is with the 3rd/5th/6th lord, you are intelligent. But make sure these houses don't have many benefics.

3rd house in my opinion is analytical intelligence, 5th house is creativity, and 6th house is practical intelligence and getting through the day in a productive manner.

So one can be creative, but neither practical nor book smart, or one can be book smart and creative but not practical. The stereotype of the awkward nerd that has no practical street smartness. However, I do think that if you have intelligence in one domain, it can be used in another domain. Jaimani says that intelligence is needed to get by in life.

You add up the points, and see how intelligent you are.

In vedic astrology, the highest degree planet and the ASC lord is you and that' show you assess looks as well.

Now I've seen some patterns in my research where I focused more on mercury

3rd house is very true
Mercury in virgo
Mercury in air signs
They also said mercury quintile uranus showed up in mensa

But one thing I never expected though was Mercury in aspect to saturn. This features more than even mercury in aspect to uranus which you would expect for intelligence usually.

Now this is anecdotal, but a few high iq people that literally chose to do not much with their iq has I've seen mercury in aries.
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  #32  
Unread 12-29-2018, 07:10 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

[QUOTE=Somna7H;937369]Wish I have this within Close Orb.
Mine is Exalted Saturn Conjunct Pluto Square Mercury.
Mercury Conjunct with bad *** Rahu/NN.
I''m only emotional rather than rational or intelligent.
In layman's terms I'm a Fool in Real/Practical World.[/QUOTE

Other things I must add though:

I've been studying personality, astrology, and how it might relate to IQ and other personality traits

Now this is a generalization so I'd do my own research. I've been focused on the mbti and the ennegram specifically.

When it comes to intelligence. INTP, INTJ, INFP, INFJ were the most gifted.

INTP is related to the aquarius/gemini archetype. INTJ is related to the aquarius/virgo archetype, INFP is the pisces/scorpio archetype, and INFJ is the cancer/pisces archetype-this is related to intelligence/IQ/giftedness. I've seen such patterns arising with three peer scholared articles. With one exception to the rule being apparently ENFPs outperform INFPs in terms of giftedness when it comes to females.

But also keep in mind, that the INFPs and INFJs sometimes don't do too well when it comes how much money they make compared to other types especially INFPs

So you can see water and air and their flowy nature usually overrepresent the "IQ" because IQ essentially represents the ability to recognize patterns, see things from a different perspective (visiospatially) and think outside of the box and engage in logically solving the problem and eliminating possible answers in a standardized test. Water has the first two covered, air (most particularly gemini and aquarius as gemini is abstract because of its mutability and aquarius is abstract because of its ruler) has all the talents.

Einstein also said that much of intelligence is imagination and air and water both have that. Phlagmetic is also suppoosedly spiritual and wise and that's correlated with Brahmins, Air element is associated with vhaisiyas (excuse my spelling) which are the merchants that are equally if not even more intelligent than the brahmins. But the brahmins job in ancient india was only to learn, perceive, and contemplate and come up with insightful theories.

Another thing I'd like to add on imagination is that much of INFs tend to be prevelent amongst people who claim they daydream alot and that's associated with a thicker dorsolateral prefrontal cortex which is also associated with working memory(and also having more to work with and being inventive with working memory ) as well. Now there's more to intelligence than just an imagination as Einstein also had a parietal lobe that was bigger than the average human parietal lobe.

Okay I'm going on a tangent. But what I'm trying to say here is that some inherent ability to invent and think outside of the box are within those that in general (which is a major part of IQ) is inherent in those whose signs are metaphorically consistent with a flowy element that can't be contained. You can't grasp water or air. Now this brings me to my final point, just like the phlagmetic is pictured to be a lame drunk, not all intelligence is fostered and IQ doesn't always equate to success. Openness to experience correlates with IQ, openness to experience and conscioentiousness correlates with success.

Now to my final point. There needs to be a thirst for knowledge. I do think learning and even a beneficial type of thinking can be fostered, and advanced almost exponentially. But that's where environment, and internal agency/motivation comes to play and you can assess things like that through ennegram. Type 5 would probably be highest in IQ scores as they are the researchers that like to observe.

I hope this was insightful.
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  #33  
Unread 12-29-2018, 08:20 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

@love-thinking

If I consider my Sidereal Zodiac Chart then I found my Gemini Archetype. Not too many benefics but balance.
Venus, Moon, Rahu and Mercury in Gemini in 2nd/3rd House (depends on house system).
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  #34  
Unread 12-29-2018, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
I wonder how Mercury/Sun in other signs create other types of intelligence.

My 3H and 9H is empty. I only have Gemini and Sag on the cusps.
I don’t have enough practice with people and their charts to say for sure, but I tend to associate mutable energy with breadth of knowledge and a wide view, cardinal with actionable knowledge, and fixed with specialized mastery. Then air with quickness and verbal ability, water with psychic and emotional understanding, fire with intuition and creativity, and earth with practical and sensory ability.

I think sun and Mercury placements will tell the most about how a person thinks and communicates, but you would need to look at moon, Mars, and Venus to see other types of intelligence more clearly.
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  #35  
Unread 12-29-2018, 07:13 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Somna7H View Post
@love-thinking

If I consider my Sidereal Zodiac Chart then I found my Gemini Archetype. Not too many benefics but balance.
Venus, Moon, Rahu and Mercury in Gemini in 2nd/3rd House (depends on house system).
Hey I use the tropical zodiac even when doing vedic. There's a reason why I do it, if you want to know why watch vic dicaras series online of tropical vs sidereal.

You don't necessarily have to be gemini archetype to be smart although if you were, you'd definitely have a thirst knowledge and sometimes even seem smart to your peers. You can be gemini and be stupid, trust me I know two.

But if you want to assess whether you are, do what I mentioned above.
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  #36  
Unread 12-31-2018, 01:19 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
I don’t have enough practice with people and their charts to say for sure, but I tend to associate mutable energy with breadth of knowledge and a wide view, cardinal with actionable knowledge, and fixed with specialized mastery. Then air with quickness and verbal ability, water with psychic and emotional understanding, fire with intuition and creativity, and earth with practical and sensory ability.

I think sun and Mercury placements will tell the most about how a person thinks and communicates, but you would need to look at moon, Mars, and Venus to see other types of intelligence more clearly.
So all of my personal planets have to go to work
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  #37  
Unread 01-01-2019, 11:36 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Witchyone View Post
I don’t have enough practice with people and their charts to say for sure, but I tend to associate mutable energy with breadth of knowledge and a wide view, cardinal with actionable knowledge, and fixed with specialized mastery. Then air with quickness and verbal ability, water with psychic and emotional understanding, fire with intuition and creativity, and earth with practical and sensory ability.
I'm a Gemini. My verbal intelligence is much higher than my spatial intelligence. My ascendant is in Pisces and Moon is in Sagittarius. I did best in art and English classes in high school and worst in gym.

I struggled a lot in traditional learning settings. I was diagnosed with a learning disability and giftedness, but school made it seem more like a curse. My brain basically has too much in some of its buckets and not enough in others.

I love books and reading. I know about a lot of topics. But I'm also disorganized and easily overwhelmed in overstimulating environments. Kids thought I was a nerd and easy to pick on. Teachers thought I was lazy. There have been points where I've been very lonely and depressed.

I come across often as indifferent to people but it's not shyness or elitism. I really just find people emotionally draining and prefer mostly being by myself. I'm actually very passionate about making sure that people are kind and understanding to those whose minds work differently whether that be LGBT people, people with disabilities, or people with mental illness. My brain is different from other people's but it isn't better or worse. Just more lopsided and eccentric.

In the end what really matters is what I do with my brain, not the labels that are attached to it. The labels just helped educators figure out that I wasn't just being difficult after all.

I think there are some correspondences between my chart and my cognitive strengths and weaknesses, but a lot of it is genetic and seen to some extent in the rest of my family. The air signs in my family are better at putting themselves into words than the fire signs in my family though.
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  #38  
Unread 01-02-2019, 10:02 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Starsareround View Post
I’m wondering what people think about Uranus in H3. Ive read a lot of different things, from problems with siblings to madness to creative genius...
I have Uranus in the 3 house, but with Jupiter there conjunct. I guess Jupiter counterbalances the siblings' problems because it's not the case. I don't know what to say about Uranus here. I know no one except me with this aspect and I don't really see the positives I read a lot of good stuff about this placement... It makes it so hard to stay focused on one thing/ interest! Total lack of focus or discipline...
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  #39  
Unread 01-03-2019, 12:46 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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I'm a Gemini. My verbal intelligence is much higher than my spatial intelligence. My ascendant is in Pisces and Moon is in Sagittarius. I did best in art and English classes in high school and worst in gym.

I struggled a lot in traditional learning settings. I was diagnosed with a learning disability and giftedness, but school made it seem more like a curse. My brain basically has too much in some of its buckets and not enough in others.

I love books and reading. I know about a lot of topics. But I'm also disorganized and easily overwhelmed in overstimulating environments. Kids thought I was a nerd and easy to pick on. Teachers thought I was lazy. There have been points where I've been very lonely and depressed.

I come across often as indifferent to people but it's not shyness or elitism. I really just find people emotionally draining and prefer mostly being by myself. I'm actually very passionate about making sure that people are kind and understanding to those whose minds work differently whether that be LGBT people, people with disabilities, or people with mental illness. My brain is different from other people's but it isn't better or worse. Just more lopsided and eccentric.

In the end what really matters is what I do with my brain, not the labels that are attached to it. The labels just helped educators figure out that I wasn't just being difficult after all.

I think there are some correspondences between my chart and my cognitive strengths and weaknesses, but a lot of it is genetic and seen to some extent in the rest of my family. The air signs in my family are better at putting themselves into words than the fire signs in my family though.
Hey there!

I would have responded sooner, but I don't get notifications when someone quotes me, so I just randomly figure it out later. I should look into whether that's a setting.

I'm glad that you are speaking up for people whose minds work differently (I like the way you put that.) I was speaking very broadly from astrological archetypes, or in other words, generalizing and not being terribly inclusive. It would be interesting to see a study tracking these assumptions against real people.

I'm a Gemini sun with Pisces moon and Taurus rising. What you said about being drained by people is familiar to me. That's a classic introvert trait. But sometimes the opposite happens to me. Once in a while I am in the mood to entertain people, and when the mood and opportunity coincide I am absolutely energized by it.

I think you're right about intelligence in families. The air signs may have more of a way with words (if I'm honest, I say it's Gemini and Virgo) but the Aries(es) never stop talking.

That's a very air-like statement you made about genetics and cognitive ability, and I agree with you.
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  #40  
Unread 01-03-2019, 02:23 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

Someone here says something about being a Gemini and being stupid. In my opinion, being a Gemini doesn't guarantee intelligence, but Gemini seems to be more likely to have a thirst for knowledge than other signs, especially fixed signs. The fixed signs tend to be so proud of their knowledge that they stick to what they know.
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Unread 01-03-2019, 02:34 AM
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Smile Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
Someone here says something about being a Gemini and being stupid. In my opinion, being a Gemini doesn't guarantee intelligence, but Gemini seems to be more likely to have a thirst for knowledge than other signs, especially fixed signs. The fixed signs tend to be so proud of their knowledge that they stick to what they know.
You may need to put Aquarius and/or Uranus as the exception.
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Unread 01-03-2019, 03:25 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

There was something said in another currently active intelligence thread that I agree with which is that high IQ is a different thing than intellectualism, and I can see how these discussions could obscure that difference of pure processing power vs. literary, logical and mathematical presentation which might not have the raw intelligence behind it.

I've never made a study of it, but I wonder if genius actually presents in the natal chart as lopsidedness or extremely tight configurations and patterns. Broadly speaking, genius is an extreme deviation from the norm that often results in noticeable differences in behaviour, interests and life path than an average person. This might be a different approach than looking at aspects that show up most frequently in the charts, but maybe that's not necessarily the best way to perceive genius in the chart.
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  #43  
Unread 01-03-2019, 04:37 AM
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You can be gemini and be stupid
Yea, that's people's pov towards me.
I'm Gemini Moon and Venus.
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Unread 01-03-2019, 03:47 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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There was something said in another currently active intelligence thread that I agree with which is that high IQ is a different thing than intellectualism, and I can see how these discussions could obscure that difference of pure processing power vs. literary, logical and mathematical presentation which might not have the raw intelligence behind it.

I've never made a study of it, but I wonder if genius actually presents in the natal chart as lopsidedness or extremely tight configurations and patterns. Broadly speaking, genius is an extreme deviation from the norm that often results in noticeable differences in behaviour, interests and life path than an average person. This might be a different approach than looking at aspects that show up most frequently in the charts, but maybe that's not necessarily the best way to perceive genius in the chart.

I tend to agree with this. I have a bit of a "bowl" chart myself, and while I do not think of myself as unusually intelligent, I know that I have abilities to focus on a subject to the exclusion of all else and bring forth "new" things, projects into the world. I would assume someone with similar focus but possibly tighter configurations/ stronger Saturn and more Moon/ Mercury interplay could achieve a great deal.
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Last edited by Starsareround; 01-03-2019 at 03:50 PM.
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Unread 01-03-2019, 07:43 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

I'd be curious to know what people think of this chart in terms of intelligence. It is one of the most interesting charts I've seen. I can tell you more about this person, but I don't want to color the interpretation until after you've had a chance to look at it.
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Unread 01-04-2019, 11:55 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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I'd be curious to know what people think of this chart in terms of intelligence. It is one of the most interesting charts I've seen. I can tell you more about this person, but I don't want to color the interpretation until after you've had a chance to look at it.
This guy looks to me like someone who is always full of ideas (Aries Merc) but has a hard time putting them into practice (12H Merc and the lack of Earth). However, he has super powerful imagination (Pisces Sun, Merc oppos Neptune and Moon). His imagination may be a source of the misunderstanding toward him, and he doubt his intelligence a lot (Merc retrograde, Merc square Saturn). But he is also an independent thinker and has a determination to prove himself to the world (Aries Merc, Merc square Mars)



What strikes me as interesting is how the 12H placement of Merc is at odd with Aries and the square with Mars. Aries is determined to put everything it finds out there for the world to see, but 12H indicates either a tendency toward privacy or a lack of recognition for his intelligence. Also he has most of his planets are down the horizon and his Sun/Merc/Venus in 12H. I'm going to guess that this man spent much of his life struggling to be recognized. He may be aspired to do work that requires imagination, but finds little recognition until later in life, maybe because people find him too impractical and/or impulsive.


His compensation for the lack of Earth is the loaded 6H and 2H. Hopefully he is able to touch into his 6H and 2H to create some substance for his raging imagination, especially the 2H NN.
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Unread 01-04-2019, 03:41 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by Gemini888 View Post
This guy looks to me like someone who is always full of ideas (Aries Merc) but has a hard time putting them into practice (12H Merc and the lack of Earth). However, he has super powerful imagination (Pisces Sun, Merc oppos Neptune and Moon). His imagination may be a source of the misunderstanding toward him, and he doubt his intelligence a lot (Merc retrograde, Merc square Saturn). But he is also an independent thinker and has a determination to prove himself to the world (Aries Merc, Merc square Mars)



What strikes me as interesting is how the 12H placement of Merc is at odd with Aries and the square with Mars. Aries is determined to put everything it finds out there for the world to see, but 12H indicates either a tendency toward privacy or a lack of recognition for his intelligence. Also he has most of his planets are down the horizon and his Sun/Merc/Venus in 12H. I'm going to guess that this man spent much of his life struggling to be recognized. He may be aspired to do work that requires imagination, but finds little recognition until later in life, maybe because people find him too impractical and/or impulsive.


His compensation for the lack of Earth is the loaded 6H and 2H. Hopefully he is able to touch into his 6H and 2H to create some substance for his raging imagination, especially the 2H NN.
This is accurate. For a good example, he is left handed but was one of those kids that was punished in school for it and forced to write with his right hand. As a result, he can write beautiful cursive with both hands, perfectly mirrored, at the same time (I watched him do it, it is a spooky thing to observe). As he grew older, he decided to only write with his left whenever he could as it felt most natural to him. When he wrote something to me, I had to use a mirror to read it.

I later found out he had schizophrenia. He had an intelligence that seemed to flow "from beyond", if you will, which fits with the 12th house and Neptune.
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Unread 01-04-2019, 05:46 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

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Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
There was something said in another currently active intelligence thread that I agree with which is that high IQ is a different thing than intellectualism, and I can see how these discussions could obscure that difference of pure processing power vs. literary, logical and mathematical presentation which might not have the raw intelligence behind it.

I've never made a study of it, but I wonder if genius actually presents in the natal chart as lopsidedness or extremely tight configurations and patterns. Broadly speaking, genius is an extreme deviation from the norm that often results in noticeable differences in behaviour, interests and life path than an average person. This might be a different approach than looking at aspects that show up most frequently in the charts, but maybe that's not necessarily the best way to perceive genius in the chart.
Nature vs. nurture. So hard to unravel. No point in having processing power if you don't do anything with it. And you don't know the limit of what you can do with your brain until you try it. As your quote in your signature line says, "For all things good and fair, the gods give nothing to man without toil and effort"

Circumstance also affects achievement. Mozart was considered a genius. But he was also heavily sculpted into being a child star by his father. Sometimes I wonder if he would have a better life if he was allowed to be a child and less of a star.

I'm sure many of Bach's children wrote music when they were young. But they didn't get dragged around Europe like trained monkeys and I suspect they were emotionally better off for it.

But I have seen some studies that suggest that beyond about 130 a higher IQ isn't necessarily helpful for achievement. For one thing it gets hard to measure. Beyond a certain point higher scores could be just statistical noise.

For another, creativity and discipline become more important. And depression and anxiety is common for people with high IQs. The smarter you are the more isolated you feel.

Natally I'm a bit lopsided. I think I could achieve a lot if I put my mind to it. But who gets called a genius in the end comes down to who writes the history books. Some artists weren't recognized until after they were dead. And there are a lot of people who I know who are exceptionally talented who will probably not make the history books.

What makes one guy in a graduating fine art class the nationally recognized photographer and another not? Some portion of it is just luck, or striking the right chord at the right time. Any indication of genius in a chart would be hard to unravel from fame.
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Unread 01-04-2019, 08:08 PM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

My Uranus and Moon are pretty much conjunct the ascendant, with Sun and Mercury in Pisces in the 5th. Due to Saturn opposing my Neptune in Sagittarius, I'd say that organization and details are difficult for me. I'm considered very intelligent but slow on common sense or sense of responsibility sometimes. I've been compared to a mad scientist. So many ideas come to me but putting them into action is very difficult.
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Unread 01-05-2019, 06:08 AM
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Re: Intelligence indicator (details inside)

Quote:
Originally Posted by corvidcatharsis View Post
Nature vs. nurture. So hard to unravel. No point in having processing power if you don't do anything with it. And you don't know the limit of what you can do with your brain until you try it. As your quote in your signature line says, "For all things good and fair, the gods give nothing to man without toil and effort"

Circumstance also affects achievement. Mozart was considered a genius. But he was also heavily sculpted into being a child star by his father. Sometimes I wonder if he would have a better life if he was allowed to be a child and less of a star.

I'm sure many of Bach's children wrote music when they were young. But they didn't get dragged around Europe like trained monkeys and I suspect they were emotionally better off for it.

But I have seen some studies that suggest that beyond about 130 a higher IQ isn't necessarily helpful for achievement. For one thing it gets hard to measure. Beyond a certain point higher scores could be just statistical noise.

For another, creativity and discipline become more important. And depression and anxiety is common for people with high IQs. The smarter you are the more isolated you feel.

Natally I'm a bit lopsided. I think I could achieve a lot if I put my mind to it. But who gets called a genius in the end comes down to who writes the history books. Some artists weren't recognized until after they were dead. And there are a lot of people who I know who are exceptionally talented who will probably not make the history books.

What makes one guy in a graduating fine art class the nationally recognized photographer and another not? Some portion of it is just luck, or striking the right chord at the right time. Any indication of genius in a chart would be hard to unravel from fame.
I had a chart in mind which exemplified the difference I noted in that post.

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Stroud,_Robert

This is the chart of Robert Stroud a.k.a the Birdman of Alcatraz

Quote:
Robert Franklin Stroud (January 28, 1890 – November 21, 1963), known as the "Birdman of Alcatraz", was a convicted murderer, American federal prisoner and author who has been cited as one of the most notorious criminals in the United States.[1][2][3] During his time at Leavenworth Penitentiary, he reared and sold birds and became a respected ornithologist, although regulations did not allow him to keep birds at Alcatraz, where he was incarcerated from 1942 to 1959. Stroud was never released from the federal prison system; he was imprisoned from 1909 to his death in 1963.
Quote:
In 1920, while in solitary confinement at Leavenworth, Stroud discovered a nest with three injured sparrows in the prison yard. He cared for them and within a few years had acquired a collection of about 300 canaries. He began extensive research into birds after being granted equipment by a prison-reforming warden. Stroud wrote Diseases of Canaries, which was smuggled out of Leavenworth and published in 1933,[4] as well as a later edition (1943). He made important contributions to avian pathology, most notably a cure for the hemorrhagic septicemia family of diseases, gaining much respect and some level of sympathy among ornithologists and farmers. Stroud ran a successful business from inside prison, but his activities infuriated the prison staff, and he was eventually transferred to Alcatraz in 1942 after it was discovered that Stroud had been secretly making alcohol using some of the equipment in his cell.

Stroud began serving a 17-year term at Alcatraz Federal Penitentiary on December 19, 1942, and became inmate #594. In 1943, he was assessed by psychiatrist Romney M. Ritchey, who diagnosed him as a psychopath, but with an I.Q. of 112.[5] Stripped of his birds and equipment, he wrote a history of the penal system.
This man doesn't have an impressive IQ, however this biographical information speaks unequivocally to his intellectual achievement.

His natal chart shows the standard markers of an "intelligent" person - At 6 planets + the ascendant in the element of air - this is an individual who will be strongly geared toward intellectualism, cognition and a mental approach to life. Traditionally speaking, the "human" signs were Virgo, Gemini, Aquarius, Libra and the first half of Sagittarius (the human portion of it). These were the signs that are classically attributed with intelligence/intellectualism and social grace.

He also has some chart factors that contribute to his scientific achievement, separate and apart from his intellectualism. Uranus is located on Spica and the combination of the planet that modernly represents the new and shocking, brilliance, unorthodox thinking and behaviour and flashes of intuitive inspiration and the willfulness to pursue a path to the death, as long as it came from one's personal volition with this fixed which according to Manilius signifies:

Quote:
"The temperaments of those whose span of life she pronounces at their birth Erigone (Virgo) will direct to study, and she will train their minds in the learned arts. She will give not so much abundance of wealth as the impulse to investigate the causes and effects of things. On them she will confer a tongue which charms, the mastery of words, and that mental vision which can discern all things, however concealed they be by the mysterious workings of nature. From the Virgin will also come the stenographer: his letter represents a word, and by means of his symbols he can keep ahead of utterance and record in novel notation the long speech of a rapid speaker. But with the good there comes a flaw: bashfulness handicaps the early years of such persons, for the Maid, by holding back their great natural gifts, puts a bridle on their lips and restrains them by the curb of authority. And (small wonder in a virgin) her offspring is not fruitful." [Astronomica, Manilius, 1st century AD, p.237 and 239]
... then we can see how his response to the injured bird in his cell was so different from the norm. That Uranus straddles the 1st and 2nd which describes the personality and the profession. He earned as a result of his science, and with a nickname like Birdman of Alcatraz you don't need to ask if such a guy was an unconventional fellow.

Then according to Gauquelin's research Saturn was associated with scientists and Stroud has the planet in a Gauquelin zone.

Jupiter is making a phasis in this chart, on the same day that he was born. Jupiter is higher learning and phasis is often relevant to profession or what one focuses their life on doing. His intellectual achievements certainly fall into that category.

The 9th house is populated with the outers and the NN straddles the cusp of the 9th and 10th. Some more testimonies to his intellectual achievement.

Aquarius is then modernly associated with Scientists and his ascendant ruler as well as his Sun and Moon are located in that sign.

Despite his impressive resume, all of this was achieved by someone with an IQ of supposedly 112 (116 by another account). Hardly exceptional in terms of raw processing power.

To address some of the other things in your post, I'm interested in the cases who are exceptionally talented and what there charts have to say. The people who you personally know who are wickedly exceptional but probably won't get acclaim. The people like Stars' friend who are very brilliant at developing AI. Those are the persons I'd be interested to look at - That's probably where a study of genius might yield fruit vs. intelligence which while related doesn't cover exactly the same ground. I don't care one lick about who the history books have deemed geniuses -- I wouldn't necessarily start a study of exceptionalism with Einstein for instance, despite being evoked into discussions related to genius.

I also make a demarcation between achievement vs. exceptionalism/raw power. I tend toward creativity being a key component in exceptionalism, but discipline is needed to make anything that is relevant to the wider public. If one were to use the current crop of "known geniuses" you may very well be picking up eminence indicators combined with intellectual/creative placements which potentially make the whole astrodatabank project contaminated in the sense of providing you with individuals who are with anything else that they might have to offer, "famous".

I don't think genius would be hard to unravel from fame if you started from the charts that were not famous, but displayed that ridiculously gifted manifestation that one would deem as "genius". I'd also want to take a more inductive approach to finding genius in the chart than to tack on assumptions about what genius is, which will influence the aspects I "think" a genius should have, then miss the actual placements that a genius actually has in the chart.

Which brings up another important point that your posts brings up, which is what exactly are we looking for when we look for "genius" in the chart? Are we looking for achievement markers? Are we looking for raw talent/processing power? Are we looking for eminence? Is genius even a thing which can be seen in the chart, since it might just be an imprecise term that constellates a bunch of ideas together that make up "the genius archetype"?

And then, no matter how much intelligence markers it has, a table will never be on par with a person's natural capacity. Astrology provides the time, place and "energy" but it has to be applied to an object in order to have a physical manifestation. The je ne sais quoi might be beyond astrology's grasp.
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