Who killed Nurse Michelle?

Tora,

MC is 8th degree of murder.

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what do you mean with this?

Pluto’s degree is 5th but it’s retro therefore 6th degree is important

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and I also have not heard of a description like you mention here. Why is 6th degree important?. I dont believe this is according to horary or event astrologies way of interpreting something. Do you maybe mean the Sabian Symbols degrees?

The 4th H ruler Uranus suggest that the end was quick

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The modern planets are not used as houserulers in horary technique Tora.At least not by traditional astrologers. But modernly seen, that could indeed indicate a sudden ending. Traditionally Saturn retrograde rules the 4th house.
Saturn is found in the 11th house in term of Mars, maybe showing a violent (Mars) death(Saturn).
Also the ruler of Mars can be looked at. It is the Sun who is conjunct the ruler of the 8th house Mercury. Death(Mercury) approaching the dispositor of the nurse (Sun).

Dear Tora, nothing was meant the way you felt it. As we all know, sometimes on paper, things come over differently. It is difficult to say something without making it look like criticism. I am sorry if I made you think that I have become hostile. This is not and has never been in my genes and I was a bit shocked really when I read this. Never mind, I am an old (and by now hopefully wise) lady and I hope this post will amend things between us.

To come back to the post, I really really have not heard about the 8th degree being the *murder degree*. I would love to learn more about traditional astrology and I might have overlooked this information. Maybe there is a link or a book you could suggest to me, so I can learn about these degrees. As you see, this was not meant as a criticism either.

Also, I dont know of course, how far advanced a member is in horary, so when I see modern planets mentioned, I always (with everybody) tell them that traditional astrology did not know about these planets and therefore do not use them as significators (like a houseruler and when you said: Uranus rules the 4th). I do use them however, to describe a sudden situation or change (Uranus), an emotional upset(Pluto) or a desillusion (Neptune). There is nothing attacking in giving some advise. This is a learning forum after all, so I suppose we can all write down what we think is OK and others can learn from. I hope you understand now where I come from.

there are two other posters mentioning Neptune

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Yes I saw that, and also Uranus was mentioned, but not as being a houseruler. That is the point I was making.

Okay-Many of you have raised some interesting and valid points.
Let me begin by addressing a few of your concerns.
Firstly, Vista,you ask

Is the chart even readable as it's late degree and the Moon is VOC to anything, excluding outer planets which aren't used in horary? Why is that i wonder, because the "deed" was already done? I know event charts have differenct considerations...

When we consider an event chart we do not check radicality by comparing the rising sign and planetary hour. In fact we do not really consider radicality because the time of the event is fixed, unlike a horary question.
http://www.renaissanceastrology.com/chartweek11-4-02.html



Firstly I cast this an event chart-the time the neighbour heard the screams, so we can assume the crime was underway.
Now, in an event chart, my understanding is that the ascendant signifies the event itself, not the victim and not the perpetrator.
Experience has shown that late degrees rising in questions about missing or absent people offer an argument of death. These degrees can also show that the matter is settled, or has progressed beyond recall.
We can see that happening here.
Now, the big problem is to find out who is wielding the Mars knife. I look and see the Mars applies a square to the sun/mercury combustion. The sun is ruler of h10 in the chart.
Seeing venus on h7 cusp, in Taurus, certainly suggested to me that venus is the victim, as she is under the rulership of Mercury, which is being burnt by the sun. That would make h6, the victim's twelfth.Venus also makes no applying aspects.

The type of enemy depicted by the 12th house is someone whose activities are hidden. It is a secret enemy that the querent is not aware of.
In this chart, Mars rules the event itself and the victims 12th house of secret enemies.It is in this house that mercury and the sun collide.
However, here's my problem:
We know the assassin was wearing green.
I read on several sites that mercury rules the colour green,but William Lilly claims that yellow or green sanguine is ruled by jupiter (sag).
We also know the assassin headed north. So I looked to see what planet was heading north-well, mercury is.
So I'm inclined to give the woman venus, being disposited by the killer, mercury, in her 12th.
Gemini is a humane sign, indicating death by man, and an air sign, indicating death from a fall or strangling, and whilst we know she was stabbed, her throat was definitely involved and both mercury and the sun are in venus's sign Taurus (throat)
Also we have Algol on h7 cusp, as I mentioned earlier.

Mars rising shows a violent person.

Lilly's 17th century list of Martian people focuses upon those who are characterised by violence (soldiers, armourers), oppression or attacks against others (thieves, usurpers); those who work in dangerous occupations (bear-wards: keepers of wild animals); those who work with sharp cutting instruments (surgeons, barbers);

This woman worked in a hospital. With surgeons.
Her tenth house, of work, is ruled By Saturn and soon jupiter will oppose Saturn.
If she is h7 , venus, she applies a square to jupiter, ruler of her h8 and her h9..
The co-ruler of the event is Jupiter. Jupiter's in her eleventh, friends organisations etc.
This event is described as a Mars event, and we see Mars on cusp of h10, showing this event is big news out in the world.
One source I read, said take h12 cusp to represent the killer-Mars.That fits the situation if we have mars just at the door of her home, as venus gets in.
Her car was tampered with and if we use h7 for her, h8 is her second, also ruled by Mercury-INTERESTING!
I'm just not 100% sure I'm using the right houses here though.
Starlink (thanks for looking!)
You said:
Both, Moon and Mercury are ruled by Venus who is situated in her 1st house, a clear connection of a personal enemy. You would almost think it is a female person.

I had that exact thought.The police are assuming I think that the killer was male on the basis of the force of the wounds.Michelle was a solid build.
But even having Mercury so involved, does suggest two people may have been involved *somehow*.

Moon rules her 3rd, Venus rules her 6th of work and herself but also the open enemy, Mercury rules her 2nd and her 5th, so I think it must be someone she knows well as Venus disposits of both the Moon and Mercury and placed in her 1st. Mercury and Venus are also in mutual reception by sign.

To me that says clearly, she knew her killer.
Keeping this thread updated as over 20 police have been assigned to the case.
She was head of her job at a huge hospital-so she may need h10 to represent her job.For her that would be Saturn, exactly opposite uranus.
I agree there are connections between her death and her work.

Thanks everyone...any other brilliant ideas, please post them.
Cheers
Lilly

Now, in an event chart, my understanding is that the ascendant signifies the event itself, not the victim and not the perpetrator.

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Oh, ok! That makes sense. I get it now.

This is the birth of an event, so 1st house shows the nature of the event: event is murder, Scorpio, so it fits.

That being said, I don't know if we have to necessarily ascribe 1st and 7th to victim and murderer or vice versa. If we do so, we automatically turn the event chart into the chart of the murderer or the victim, and that is confusing to me.

If I focus solely on what the planets are doing, I'd be tempted to see Mercury as victim, since Mercury ruler of Virgo seems to be a good significator for a nurse, and Mercury is domiciled, nurse in her house? Also Mercury is combust and in direct aspect to Mars, seems to be the weakest planet in the chart.

I have no idea what to do with these houses, though. If this is the "birth" of the event, a murder, then what? What does 2nd house mean? Resources of the murder? What about 10th? Career of the murder?

Thanks a lot Tora, really interesting to read about this, will take the time delve into all this. I really appreciate your explanatory PM

Cheers, Starlink

Rockfish, you said:

since Mercury ruler of Virgo seems to be a good significator for a nurse, and Mercury is domiciled, nurse in her house?

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I like this deduction, it did not cross my mind but indeed, planet and house both show "working as a nurse".

I have no idea what to do with these houses, though. If this is the "birth" of the event, a murder, then what? What does 2nd house mean? Resources of the murder? What about 10th? Career of the murder?

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I guess we should look at a chart like this for whatever went on at that moment, not taking "the murder" as a person with resources. The 2nd house in trad.astrology shows the *immediate future*. Dont ask me how they got to this, but that is what I have read a while ago. Maybe the 10th house could show the police and how they go or will go about this event. The 8th house maybe shows the cause of death. the 3rd house describes the things that were done to her car maybe. But I agree, it is not easy at all. We have to use our imagination here.

Here are some of the midpoint trees.

Mo/Sa/Ur=Su/Pl-Pl/Mc-Me/Pl.

Mo/Sa:Self contol,the fear of being compromised or exposed by indisreet action.
a lonely women.
Mo/Ur:Emotional tension,sudden manifestation of sub conscious forces,an over strained emotional life,a tendency to overdo things at work,fear and anxiety.
Mo=Su/Pl (danger to life)brutal suppression of feelings.(force majeure).
Mo=Pl/Mc:A women with personality and the qualities of leadership.

Pl/Mc:The likelihood of sudden ruin through the misuse of power,a crisis at a certain junction in life,a turn in ones destiny.
Mo=Me/Pl: A women who can speak convincingly.A restless women.

Asc=Mo/Pl: a violent reaction to enviromental influences,the tendency to cause upsets in ones enviroment through ones conduct.Many upsets.
Pl/Mc:The tendency to create feelings of resistence and vindictiveness in other people.

Me/Ve/Ma!!!

Source COSI.(considered the midpoint bible)

Jerry

OK, I looked for something that would clarify what the houses mean, I searched in Deborah Houlding's site, there are some suggestions about their meaning in event charts. But they talk about war, conflicts, lawsuits, sports, so we would have to make some sort of conversion to the situation here, a murder. I'll try and find something specific about murders, but at least I found this in Skyscript:

8th house:

In Events:
Watters suggests that in events concerning crimes the 8th rules the detectives, but in cases of murder, the victim. She also notes that if the significator of the initiator of an event is placed in the 8th, they may not live to see the conclusion of the business.

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So, according to Barbara Watters, the victim here is indeed Mercury.



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If 8th and Mercury are the victim, Venus rules her 12th house (the 7th) and is positioned there, clearly, as an enemy. Possibly not the murderer, but someone connected to the event. A woman, in mutual reception, so, yes, I agree they knew each other.

Updating: Police have said they have a Prime suspect, reportedly an ex worker at her place of work.I will update as soon as anything else comes to hand.
Cheers
Lilly

The above mentioned person, a foreigner, aged 49, was arrested tonight in regard to her murder.He is alleged to have been employed by her.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/beets-suspect-arrested-20100519-vf1p.html