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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #1  
Unread 04-12-2019, 05:02 PM
ChildOfVenus ChildOfVenus is offline
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Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Do you find this to be more accurate in regards to natal, synastry and composite charts?

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Unread 04-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

No, Placidus is the best.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 05:32 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus View Post
Do you find this to be more accurate in regards to natal, synastry and composite charts?
I will investigate further, but based on my preliminary investigation, I don't prefer whole sign houses.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 06:54 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus View Post

Do you find this to be more accurate
in regards to natal, synastry and composite charts?
depends who you ask
for example
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


No, Placidus is the best.
HISTORICAL DETAIL


PLACIDUS named for 17th-century astrologer Placidus de Titis
it is thought the Placidus system was first mentioned about 13th century
in Arab literature
but
first confirmed publication was in 1602
by Giovanni Antonio Magini (15551617)
in his book "Tabulae Primi Mobilis, quas Directionem Vulgo Dicunt".

The first documented usage is from Czech, 1627.
Later it was popularized by the Catholic Church
as an argument for Ptolemy's geocentric theory of the Solar System
in the campaign against the heliocentric theory.
Placidus, a professor of mathematics
was named as its author
to give it credibility to his contemporaries
Placidus remains the most popular system among English-speaking astrologers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_(astrology)
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Unread 04-12-2019, 06:59 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

I look at some things by division (quadrant houses) and some by counting (signs).

They highlight different things in a chart.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 07:04 PM
petosiris petosiris is online now
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Placidus is first described by Ibn Ezra in the 12th century, though it really does not matter which house system is original or popular, what matters is its naturalistic and rational underpinnings.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 07:08 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post

I look at some things by division (quadrant houses) and some by counting (signs).
They highlight different things in a chart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Placidus is first described by Ibn Ezra in the 12th century, though
it really does not matter which house system is original or popular,
what matters is its naturalistic and rational underpinnings.
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...902#post726902

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post


The truth is I use both, for natal as well as horary. My understanding is that the ancient texts, when referring to the "places, signs, houses" were using the words interchangeably to mean "sign." The first quadrant systems seem to have arisen from the concept of angularity, as is described by Ptolemy as well as others.

The general idea was to calculate the ASC (or the gnomon of the ascendant as used by Valens) and divide the chart by sign for topics. What today we call houses began as a division to determine the stamina of the planet, i.e. how close to an angle, or pivot/stake that planet was, was it approaching/advancing toward an angle or falling away from one.

Many tradtional astrologers I know still use Porphyry (finding the angles and then dividing the quadrants into three houses each) or the slightly more sophisticated Alcabitius system. I personally prefer Placidus because I do more horary work than anything, and Placidus is genius in that each house is exactly two hours of day/night on the day the chart is cast. This brings the hour ruler into the chart in a way no other house system does.


http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=85029
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Unread 04-12-2019, 07:29 PM
petosiris petosiris is online now
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

You don't need hour rulers or cusps. You need only the four angles, with the four pre-ascensions and four post-ascensions deriving their significance from the angles. Each place is counted according to the hours except that the first one-sixth of every two ordinary hours belong to the previous place, since planets do not immediately fall from grace after rising, culminating, setting or anti-culminating, but they do so after 20 ordinary minutes, in accordance with the philosopher, and not with those who say to take 5 degrees of the ecliptic or the fictitious orbs, for their error is the same as that of the whole signers, equalers and porphirers.

Really cusps do not exist in the conventional sense, except as to mark the beginning of the places, with their power to do good or evil. It is from the misunderstanding of this fact, that the irrationality of most, if not all house systems persist.

Quote:
I look at some things by division (quadrant houses) and some by counting (signs).
Aspects happen with signs, angularity with angles.

Last edited by petosiris; 04-12-2019 at 07:53 PM.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 07:49 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

If you really want to know "which house system is more accurate" try testing and experimentation.

Then you won't need to rely on my word. I could be wrong (highly unlikely), or maybe I just have a different perspective.

I use Placidus. I started with it 40-odd years ago. I like Placidus because it gives unequal houses and interceptions; I am primarily interested in the psychological side of things, and Placidus seems to suit that perspective.

The houses represent "Surrounding Circumstances". They are "mundane". They "bring the heavens down to earth".

How to test house systems?
Use transits, directions, even horary charts and observe the timing of changes in circumstance or notable "coincidence".

An example, using a horary chart:

A friend called me about 3 AM. She had dreamt of her own death and was terrified; I could hear the terror in her voice. Perfect for a horary--deep and intense psychological involvement. I understood that my job in this case was to reassure, sooth and calm. No "prediction" was needed or even called for.

One of the first things the astrologer reading a horary looks at is the Ascendant. 23 Taurus was rising. My friend's 8th natal cusp stands in 23 Taurus by Placidus. No other house system gives that specific degree on the 8th, and the symbolism applied to the actual case is striking.

Last edited by greybeard; 04-12-2019 at 08:31 PM.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 10:56 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus View Post
Do you find this to be more accurate in regards to natal, synastry and composite charts?
I don't know if whole sign houses is more accurate than other house systems, but it is very useful in reducing ambiguity in the chart. I use whole signs along with regiomontanus houses to get a more in depth look a the the chart with horary. And I use WS with placidus for natal and extensions of the natal, like progressions, transits, synastry.
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Unread 04-12-2019, 11:23 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Astrology is so magically flexible.

Being a product of the human mind it adapts to the human mind...any human mind, your mind.

IleneK says WS reduces ambiguity...and I said I like Placidus because it increases ambiguity (variable cusps, interceptions, etc.).

We are not really talking as much about which system is more accurate as which system best suits us, our perspectives and attitudes, the way our own mind works....

The same sort of thing comes up in the never-ending and pointless debates on Sidereal vs. Tropical.
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Unread 04-13-2019, 07:15 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

I don't know if whole sign houses is more accurate than other house systems,
but it is very useful in reducing ambiguity in the chart.

I use whole signs along with regiomontanus houses to get a more in depth look a the the chart with horary.

And I use WS with placidus for natal and extensions of the natal, like progressions, transits, synastry.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...413#post311413


Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post


Cusps:

Today
and for the past thousand years or so
we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),


but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp":


it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids)
and
the point of a sword
-so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something,
and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed,
this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning",
which later came to mean its "border",
ie,
the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications
(Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results,
among the various quadrant house systems)


But now notice this:
in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all,
and never were so regarded!


In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning,
not as a "border" but rather as A POINT
-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house,
viz,
the sensitive point in whole sign houses
-each house-
that is the "cusp" of each house
-is a direct projection from the ascending degree.


Example:


-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus:
what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp")
in the whole sign houses of this chart?


Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries


Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point")
that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc,
and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)


Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything,
but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree)
for timing (and other) delineative purposes.


Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology)
during the same period of time
-ie, late 8th to early 9th century-


this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices,
rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign)
by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West,
and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

I quite agree with Waybread in the statement, "so what?" (if old time astrologers did or didn't do something)
For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign
-it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system
(which it is)
or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me
(ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above,
does it work (producing delineations and predicitions)
better than what I have previously been doing?


Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched;
but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it,
except for beginners
-to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first,
and see how well it might work for you...
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Unread 04-13-2019, 08:52 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post
I don't know if whole sign houses is more accurate than other house systems, but it is very useful in reducing ambiguity in the chart. I use whole signs along with regiomontanus houses to get a more in depth look a the the chart with horary. And I use WS with placidus for natal and extensions of the natal, like progressions, transits, synastry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I am afraid I do not follow.
Could you say a bit to elucidate your point?
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Unread 04-13-2019, 09:45 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by IleneK View Post

I am afraid I do not follow.
Could you say a bit to elucidate your point?
dr. farr switched from Placidus after two or three decades
and found Whole Sign Houses preferable
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Unread 04-13-2019, 09:47 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildOfVenus View Post


Do you find this to be more accurate
in regards to natal, synastry and composite charts?
The most important factor for horoscopic astrology
is a reliable time of birth
so without a reliable time of birth
house system won't provide reliable aka "accurate" results
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Unread 04-13-2019, 09:48 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The most important factor for horoscopic astrology
is a reliable time of birth
so without a reliable time of birth
house system won't provide reliable aka "accurate" results
Offtopic, I am afraid
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Unread 04-13-2019, 09:54 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post


Offtopic, I am afraid


thanks for highlighting that
needs a new thread
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Unread 04-13-2019, 10:45 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Just a testimony from a noob in astrology [barely knew it since 6 months ago], Whole Sign house division is easier to understand. So Whole Sign house division is probably the best way to start for learing astrology. The bounds itself divided into 30 per sign no matter what authors/zodiac/methods you're following [Dorotheus or Ptolemy]. Greybeard make a good point pertaining to all branches of astrology and agree with IleneK when it comes to ambiguity of quadrant houses, Whole Sign making it look easier.


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Unread 04-14-2019, 06:01 PM
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

vedic houses :

the signs describe the nature of the terrain
how a planet will behave during transit etc,

the houses deal with the subject matter affected by the transit;

vedic houses are approximated for equal houses for ease,
treating the asc degree as the mid-point of the chart
the house extending by 15 deg on either side of the house,
which can be fine-tuned to the porphyry for more accuracy;


the forums somehouse do not use the vedic equal houses,
being satisfied with preliminary analysis and predictions;

free vedic softwares do provide for house charts
known as bhava/house charts available for reference;


best regards, kshantaram
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Last edited by kshantaram; 04-14-2019 at 06:03 PM.
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Unread 04-14-2019, 06:10 PM
petosiris petosiris is online now
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Re: Do you think using the Whole House system is more accurate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshantaram View Post
vedic houses :

the signs describe the nature of the terrain
how a planet will behave during transit etc,

the houses deal with the subject matter affected by the transit;

vedic houses are approximated for equal houses for ease,
treating the asc degree as the mid-point of the chart
the house extending by 15 deg on either side of the house,
which can be fine-tuned to the porphyry for more accuracy;


the forums somehouse do not use the vedic equal houses,
being satisfied with preliminary analysis and predictions;

free vedic softwares do provide for house charts
known as bhava/house charts available for reference;


best regards, kshantaram
What is reason for treating planets 15 degrees below the descendant as setting
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