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  #251  
Unread 03-22-2020, 03:51 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Does that change the matchup of weekday names from the Hebrew to the Gregorian calendar?
It means that half of the time - days are desynchronized.

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  #252  
Unread 03-22-2020, 03:53 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Calendars have nothing to do with weekdays, which are the same in all calendars.
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  #253  
Unread 03-22-2020, 03:55 AM
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It means that half of the time - days are desynchronized.
So, the Sabbath begins on Friday, Day of Venus?
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  #254  
Unread 03-22-2020, 05:34 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It wasn't CALLED Saturn's Day in the Hebrew calendar. The Romans chose that name for it. "Shabbat" means "Day of Rest and Prayer"--originally nothing to do with the planet Saturn.
David, All I said was that the Romans associated the Jewish God with Saturn, not that Jews themselves would have done so.The word Shabbat (or Shabbos in the Ashkenazi pronunciation) does mean a day of refraining from work. It also has the association with the word sheva, meaning seven. The 7th day.
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  #255  
Unread 03-22-2020, 05:48 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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So, the Sabbath begins on Friday, Day of Venus?
Let's not confuse apples and oranges. In Hebrew, the days do not have planetary names, but numbers. In English we would say day one, day 2, &c; or first day, second day, &c. (Yom rishon, yom sheni, &c) The 7th day is Shabbat, the sabbath.

Before clocks were invented, people simply looked to the sky to tell time. Finding midnight would have been difficult and not really necessary. The Sabbath begins on our Friday night when the sun is down and 3 stars (or any description) can be observed in the sky. The Sabbath ends on Saturday when the sun is down and 3 stars can be observed in the sky.
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  #256  
Unread 03-22-2020, 05:50 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Anyone who goes against the rule of our Father (the patriarchy).
What does this mean? Out with it, Petosiris.
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  #257  
Unread 03-22-2020, 06:08 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

All the predominant religions are misogynist,and that's by design.
Sourcing material that isn't dogmatic programming is worth it, unless you've cozied up to the fantasy.

Far as the gender hoopla, it's just their way of ushering in pedophilia, something buried in religions for millennia at the very least.
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  #258  
Unread 03-22-2020, 06:16 AM
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David, All I said was that the Romans associated the Jewish God with Saturn, not that Jews themselves would have done so.The word Shabbat (or Shabbos in the Ashkenazi pronunciation) does mean a day of refraining from work. It also has the association with the word sheva, meaning seven. The 7th day.
I word it differently: The Romans borrowed from other cultures. They borrowed the idea of a Day of Rest from the Hebrew calendar, and decided Saturn's Day would be best, because they feared Saturn as the god of accidents. Coincidentally, astrologers were applying the term "planet" as meaning "wandering star", which included Sol and Luna, making Saturnus the 7th astrological planet fit the 7th Day in that sense.

The Romans, like the Greeks, believed that the Hebrew "One God before all other gods" was a reference to their own King of the gods, Zeus/Jupiter.
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  #259  
Unread 03-22-2020, 01:21 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Interesting fact

This interesting idiom is often shortened to 'when in Rome' perhaps because it’s such a well-known phrase. The origin of the idiom 'When in Rome, do as the Romans do' was first seen in print in 1777, in Interesting Letters of Pope Clement XIV: “The siesta or afternoon’s nap of Italy, my most dear and reverend Father, would not have alarmed you so much, if you had recollected, that when were at Rome, we should do as the Romans do – cum Romanus eris.” This use suggests that the idiom was already well-known, and variations of it can be seen in examples dating from as early as the late 1500s.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


‘When in Rome, do as the Romans do’ – a phrase that gives tourists in the Eternal City free rein to indulge in an extra scoop of gelato or feast on carbs at every meal. As well as signifying the benefits of following the local customs and traditions to strangers in a foreign land, the expression is also commonly used in everyday situations where following the status quo seems like the best idea. It’s such a cliché nowadays that simply saying ‘when in Rome…’ still gets the point across, but where did it come from?

And who said it first?


The origin of the saying can actually be traced back to the 4th century AD when the Roman Empire was undergoing much instability and had already split in two. St Augustine, an early Christian saint, moved to Milan to take up a role as a professor of rhetoric. Unlike in his previous church in Rome, he found the congregation didn’t fast on Saturdays.


The older and wiser St Ambrose, at that time the bishop of Milan, offered up some sage words.

‘Romanum venio, ieiuno Sabbato; hic sum, non ieiuno: sic etiam tu, ad quam forte ecclesiam veneris, eius morem serva, si cuiquam non vis esse scandalum nec quemquam tibi.’


In other words, ‘when I go to Rome, I fast on Saturday, but here I do not. Do you also follow the custom of whatever church you attend, if you do not want to give or receive scandal
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  #260  
Unread 03-22-2020, 01:31 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Also, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God, the things that are God's." -{Mark 12:17}
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  #261  
Unread 03-22-2020, 08:44 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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What does this mean? Out with it, Petosiris.
''Do we not all have one father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously each against his brother so as to profane the covenant of our fathers?'' - Malachi 2
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  #262  
Unread 03-22-2020, 09:25 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The patriarchy absolutely devalues the feminine. Can’t understand why. Negging - old as dirt.

Other then the dear Sophia


https://northernway.org/sophia.html


She is Wisdom Incarnate, the Goddess of all those who are wise.
Wisdom of Solomon, a book in the apocrypha says clearly that Sophia is the Holy Spirit.


https://northernway.org/sophia.html


Quote:
More than that, Sophia is the Wisdom of Deity. She has been revered as the Wise Bride of Solomon by Jews, as the Queen of Wisdom and War (Athena) by Greeks, and as the Holy Spirit of Wisdom by Christians.


Quote:
Sophia (Koinē Greek: σοφία sophía "wisdom") is a central idea in Hellenistic philosophy and religion, Platonism, Gnosticism, and Christian theology.



Philo, a Hellenized Jew writing in Alexandria, attempted to harmonize Platonic philosophy and Jewish scripture. Also influenced by Stoic philosophical concepts, he used the Koine term logos (λόγος, lógos) for the role and function of Wisdom, a concept later adapted by the author of the Gospel of John in the opening verses and applied to Jesus as the Word (Logos) of God the Father.[3]
In Gnosticism, Sophia is a feminine figure, analogous to the soul, but also simultaneously one of the emanations of the Monad. Gnostics held that she was the syzygy of Jesus (i.e. the Bride of Christ) and was the Holy Spirit of the Trinity. She is occasionally referred to by the Hebrew equivalent of Achamṓth

If Foreign travel ever gets under way again, I'd highly advise anyone who is interested in Christianity to visit Istanbul (the old Constantinople) especially on a tour to see the Hagia Sophia
The reason I'd recommend a "specialized tour" is because there are many important sites to see besides this ancient church/cathedral/mosque along with the background information you'd otherwise likely miss from the armchair virtual travel.




Quote:
In Russian Orthodox mysticism, Sophia became increasingly indistinguishable from the person of the Theotokos (rather than Christ), to the point of the implication of the Theotokos as a "fourth person of the Trinity".

The Christological identification of Christ the Logos with Divine Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) is strongly represented in the iconographic tradition of the Russian Orthodox Church.


Even in more Modern times:
Quote:
Helena Blavatsky, the founder of Theosophy Refers to her in her writings - (see Wikipedia)

and


A goddess Sophia was introduced into Anthroposophy by its founder, Rudolf Steiner, in his book The Goddess: From Natura to Divine Sophia and a later compilation of his writings titled Isis Mary Sophia
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  #263  
Unread 03-23-2020, 05:46 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I word it differently: The Romans borrowed from other cultures. They borrowed the idea of a Day of Rest from the Hebrew calendar, and decided Saturn's Day would be best, because they feared Saturn as the god of accidents. Coincidentally, astrologers were applying the term "planet" as meaning "wandering star", which included Sol and Luna, making Saturnus the 7th astrological planet fit the 7th Day in that sense.

The Romans, like the Greeks, believed that the Hebrew "One God before all other gods" was a reference to their own King of the gods, Zeus/Jupiter.
So far as I know the pagan Romans did not have a day of rest. It was implemented late in Antiquity by a Christian emperor.
https://aquilaelba.info/did-romans-recognize-weekends/
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C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #264  
Unread 03-23-2020, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
So far as I know the pagan Romans did not have a day of rest. It was implemented late in Antiquity by a Christian emperor.
https://aquilaelba.info/did-romans-recognize-weekends/
Plutarch, in the 1st Century A.D., wrote a treatise on why the weekdays were astrologically named after the Roman gods in the order they still are, in combination with a 24 hour cycle. They were named when the Roman pantheon was still current.

Saturn's day was not a sacred, or an official day of rest, but it became popular for that purpose in the pre-Christian Roman Empire.

Last edited by david starling; 03-23-2020 at 07:10 AM.
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  #265  
Unread 03-23-2020, 07:53 AM
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The attempt to connect the Hebrew Sabbath to the planet Saturn is an invalid assertion. It followed the Church's decision to connect the majesty and brightness of the Sun to the Christian savior by having its day of worship on Sunday.

Here's a question: Does the Roman Catholic Church designate Sunday as its 7th day, unlike the civil calendar? Or, has it simply abandoned the Hebrew concept of the 7th day as the appropriate day of rest and prayer?

[Disclaimer: I am NOT a Seventh Day Adventist. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) ]

Last edited by david starling; 03-23-2020 at 09:21 AM.
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  #266  
Unread 03-23-2020, 01:31 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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It's easy to be a girl though. You just sit around and look pretty.
:bigg rin:
That is so funny, I almost upchucked.
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  #267  
Unread 03-23-2020, 01:33 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The attempt to connect the Hebrew Sabbath to the planet Saturn is an invalid assertion. It followed the Church's decision to connect the majesty and brightness of the Sun to the Christian savior by having its day of worship on Sunday.

Here's a question: Does the Roman Catholic Church designate Sunday as its 7th day, unlike the civil calendar? Or, has it simply abandoned the Hebrew concept of the 7th day as the appropriate day of rest and prayer?

[Disclaimer: I am NOT a Seventh Day Adventist. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) ]
The eastern Christians met together on both the seventh day and the first day of the week according to the church historian Sozomen. This was also the custom of the Jewish Christians (who were keeping the Law) according to the church historian Eusebius. These groups were also quartodeciman by following the calendar of the Jews in observing the Jewish Passover.
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  #268  
Unread 03-23-2020, 11:22 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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Plutarch, in the 1st Century A.D., wrote a treatise on why the weekdays were astrologically named after the Roman gods in the order they still are, in combination with a 24 hour cycle. They were named when the Roman pantheon was still current.

Saturn's day was not a sacred, or an official day of rest, but it became popular for that purpose in the pre-Christian Roman Empire.
Can you cite your source, David? Roman society had slaves who had to work all the time with no day of rest, poor free people who probably had to work most of the time, and a small percentage pf wealthy people who didn't work at any time unless they got some kind of political appointment. Estimates are hard to come by but slaves probably constituted about 35% of the population. The elites were probably about 1 percent. Everyone else would range from wealthy to the point of joining the leisure class but not patrician, to menial laborers.

I get Christians having designated weekly holy days, in part as an adaptation of the Jewish sabbath. It's interesting that Sunday=the sun's day. We get glimmers of something solar going on with Saul (Sol) changing his name to Paul (Apollo) but telling the early Christians not to worship him.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Last edited by waybread; 03-23-2020 at 11:28 PM.
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  #269  
Unread 03-23-2020, 11:41 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

The name of Paul was Shaul (like the King Shaul), not Saul - Greeks can't pronounce the -sh sound, so the LXX and New Testament transliterated them to Saul (with -os at the end for masculine names in some places). The same was true for Iesous. When the apostles were talking to Jews, they probably pronounced their names as Shaul and Yeshua.

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  #270  
Unread 03-23-2020, 11:45 PM
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Waybread, I read it in one of my history books, but I forget which one. So, I'll just conclude by saying, Saturn is not historically linked to the Hebrew Sabbath, except by antisemitism following the formation of the Roman Catholic Church.
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  #271  
Unread 03-23-2020, 11:58 PM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

Just to return to the thread topic. I have a lot of interest in the history of western religions and astrology. It does matter. But out of this interest and my studies, several points are really clear to me.

I don't think the Bible was divinely written. Divinely inspired, OK. But there is an interesting history to the question of who wrote the Bible, accessed through the field called Biblical criticism. This doesn't mean criticizing the Bible as in condemning it. It means analyzing it as a philologist. (Basically someone who studies the historical development of languages.) When philologists examined the Bible using their linguistic tools, they found distinctly different writing styles, that often corresponding to different and sometimes contradictory reports of events. (Starting with Genesis 1 vs. Genesis 2. Cf. also the different nativity accounts in the Gospels. Or looking at the different words used for God.) So we understand the Bible (literally "library") to be a composite from different people who had different customs and agendas.

Spirit and faith have a universal quality to them (omnipresence) but ordinary human beings can access them only through our own time, place, and attendant cultures. Ancient gods were understood in anthropomorphized form throughout the ancient Near East and Mediterranean regions. (Even with the Egyptian animal-headed gods, who behaved like powerful humans.) If ancient societies were rigidly patriarchal, that's how they understood deities to behave. It's like water itself has no particular form, but it takes on the form of its vessel.

The God who created the universe cannot be confined by humans' limited understandings, rules, and doctrines. As God is of our time and all times, our understandings cannot possibly be constrained by those of Iron Age people living lives we can barely imagine with any accuracy. Nor could they have imagined our lives.

Worshippers today may joyfully partake of the age-old traditions of their faiths, but they don't live in those worlds of the past and cannot be constrained by them.

My personal belief-- which need not be anyone else's-- is that God by any name is an all pervasive Divine Consciousness or Divine Presence. However, human beings, limited as we are desire more human-like understandable forms that mirror our own cultures.

Just for example, the Bible talks about slavery as the norm, and a patriarch (Judah) ordering his daughter-in-law to be burned as his right, but we don't live in those worlds today. There is no Caesar, for example. So already we pick and choose what beliefs to follow and which ones to ignore based upon our time and place.
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  #272  
Unread 03-24-2020, 12:02 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

The Bible imagined our lives from yesterday, today and tomorrow as it prophesies about them, and prophecy comes from God.
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  #273  
Unread 03-24-2020, 12:04 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The name of Paul was Shaul (like the King Shaul), not Saul - Greeks can't pronounce the -sh sound, so the LXX and New Testament transliterated them to Saul (with -os at the end for masculine names in some places). The same was true for Iesous. When the apostles were talking to Jews, they probably pronounced their names as Shaul and Yeshua.
The ancient Greek word for sun, helios, is different than the Latin word sol.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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  #274  
Unread 03-24-2020, 12:05 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The Bible imagined our lives from yesterday, today and tomorrow as it prophesies about them, and prophecy comes from God.
The Bible is a book. It is not an animate sentient being such that you can correctly use active verbs to suggest that it "imagines" or "speaks." Your belief is extra-biblical. What is its source?
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

Life is not about finding yourself. Life is about creating yourself. Message on a refrigerator magnet.
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  #275  
Unread 03-24-2020, 12:06 AM
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Re: Human existence: the gender of God

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The ancient Greek word for sun, helios, is different than the Latin word sol.
I don't see the Gentile association you made with Jews of Jews.
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