T-square with MC as focal point?

Hi. I'm new here. I did a search on the boards and wasn't able to find an answer to this particular question (but I recognise that this question may have already been answered... if that is the case, I apologise!).

Once upon a time, there was something called "Clairvision Virtual Astrologer" and I plugged in my details and got a lengthy report about everything about me, astrologically-speaking. I was stunned by the number of aspect formations I apparently have:

* 3 Grand Trines
* 8 Kites
* 3 T-Squares
* 2 Grand Crosses

For whatever reason, I was interested in tackling the T-Squares first but noticed that mine all include the MC as my focal point - this seemed problematic as everything I've encountered so far talks about planets and their modes, elements, etc. And two of the t-squares have the ASC involved.

*ASC - SUN - MC
*ASC - MOON - MC
*PLUTO - SUN - MC

I'd greatly appreciate any insights (and if posting my chart will help, please let me know). It occurred to me that the software may have been a little too enthusiastic about assigning aspect formations where none actually exist!

Just from what you describe, it sounds like your Sun, Moon, and Pluto are in t-square with each other, and they're conjunct your AC, MC, IC, and/or DC. My understanding is that's one t-square being interpreted multiple ways. Or is it a grand cross?

It would be very helpful to post your chart. Then we can discuss all those aspects!

I have a couple of them myself: an angular t-square, involving planets conjunct the MC and IC, and one of those points is also in a grand trine. Chart siblings!

I can bring to comment for t-squares only formed by bodies.
not non-planets, nodes and cusps.

perhaps astrologers know it better. the importance of suchlike ? I do not think so much or I'dont understand yet.

Hi Osamenor! I've got Pluto conjunct my ASC, in opposition to both my Sun and my Moon. Interestingly, Jupiter in 4th house Capricorn forms a square with both Pluto in 1st house Libra and Moon in 7th house Aries but it doesn't show up (at least on Clairvision) as a t-square when I think it should... shouldn't it? Here's my chart though! I've never heard that term "Chart siblings" but I really like it.

Hi HonourAndDevotion! I, too, thought that having the MC and ASC involved was weird, especially when two legs are not even planets.

Happyavocado, will you please add an avatar picture? I would love to see what a happy avocado looks like. (I found this one.)

Generally for aspect patterns such as T-squares, kites, grand trines, and the like, I think you need actual planets on the corners, not angles or other sensitive points. For sure I wouldn't use more than one angle, because everyone's AC-DC and MC-IC points will be opposed; and many people have all four of their chart angles within nearly the same degree. However, when a transiting planet hits an angle, it can form a temporary aspect pattern that may feel highly significant because of the angle involved.

I think you've got a T-square involving your Pluto, sun-moon, and Jupiter; with your AC-IC points involved due to the planetary conjunctions. I'd also grant you a mystic rectangle involving Saturn, sun-moon, Neptune, and Pluto; although this formation is not well understood.

Hi Waybread! I do have a pic to post but I believe I cannot update my profile until I've proven I've got some staying power. I like your happyavocado.

What you say about the aspect formations makes sense, and is a relief - less work, and less worry that the stars were inhospitable (I think I have enough to worry about with Pluto opposing both my Sun and Moon)! Looking back through this printout I see that every one of the aforementioned aspect formations can be ruled out through inclusion of nodes and/or MC and/or ASC. Hope that doesn't make me boring now.

Funny about the mystic rectangle, and how Clairvision saw all these other pseudo-formations but didn't catch that one!

The mystic rectangle is very interesting because it is quite rare. And It has two conjunctions on the right side of the rectangle (if you allow enough orb for Mars and Saturn to be conjunct.) I think it suggests that there is a great deal of talent and potential here. Venus trine Jupiter is very nice to have since it usually guarantees a fair amount of good fortune.

But I have noticed that most of the women who have Mars conjunct Saturn have had very difficult first marriages often to men who are very selfish, or chronic womanizers or somewhat cruel. Then they never remarry - remain very independent after that . Two examples are Lucille Ball and Joni Mitchell. has this been the case for you? You have Sun and Moon and chart ruler all in the 7th house of partners - I would think it would not be in your nature to want to be so independent?

thelivingsky said:

But I have noticed that most of the women who have Mars conjunct Saturn have had very difficult first marriages often to men who are very selfish, or chronic womanizers or somewhat cruel. Then they never remarry - remain very independent after that . Two examples are Lucille Ball and Joni Mitchell. has this been the case for you? You have Sun and Moon and chart ruler all in the 7th house of partners - I would think it would not be in your nature to want to be so independent?

Click to expand...

You know what's interesting? That sounds just like David Bowie's first marriage, but he has sun conjunct mars.

thelivingsky said:

The mystic rectangle is very interesting because it is quite rare. And It has two conjunctions on the right side of the rectangle (if you allow enough orb for Mars and Saturn to be conjunct.) I think it suggests that there is a great deal of talent and potential here. Venus trine Jupiter is very nice to have since it usually guarantees a fair amount of good fortune.

But I have noticed that most of the women who have Mars conjunct Saturn have had very difficult first marriages often to men who are very selfish, or chronic womanizers or somewhat cruel. Then they never remarry - remain very independent after that . Two examples are Lucille Ball and Joni Mitchell. has this been the case for you? You have Sun and Moon and chart ruler all in the 7th house of partners - I would think it would not be in your nature to want to be so independent?

Click to expand...

Hi thelivingsky. Thanks for your insights. I have had good fortune in that for all my self-sabotage and seemingly random chaos, I have overcome to the point of being relatively comfortable. Landing on my feet time and again has been nothing short of miraculous. I tend to "dodge bullets" but there have been no shortage of close calls. It hasn't led to a life of luxury that some with venus trine jupiter tend to enjoy but I'm still alive.

If you had asked me about my marriage 3 years ago I would have absolutely concurred with the selfish and cruel assessment (he did have an addiction, too, but it wasn't to women). We stuck it out for a variety of reasons - we could remain mostly civil by ignoring each other. But something seemed to happen to him - nobody with any first-hand knowledge of the situation quite understands it, him included - whereby he became a far better version of himself. It was very sudden and I'm still very, very wary - there's part of me that got broken and I'm not sure it will ever be fixed.

I was very independent before him, but it wasn't really by choice. I was (am?) desperate for love and approval but ran away from anyone who gave it too willingly, choosing instead to focus on elusive, emotionally-distant males. I read that moon in the 7th would see me dependent on relationships but that hasn't been the case, unless you count my daydreamed relationships. I like people well enough but I need plenty of alone time and I actually get extremely grouchy and feel caged with too much togetherness! While the sun is actually in the latter part of my 6th, I do have chiron in the 7th along with my chart ruler and moon ... it does seem to fit in that I have deep-seated issues with rejection and abandonment, and I've dealt with quite a bit (in large and catastrophic, public ways) of that in my life. However, if we were to break up, I guarantee that I'd be hopeful that there was someone out there for me!

Hello again,
Thank you for the great feedback . This is always the most help when trying to master the art of chart interpretation. I am trying to get good enough to go pro and I want to specialize in relationship astrology. If you would feel okay with it, can you post the chart of your significant other? It would be interesting to see what transits and progressions were going on for him when he had his big change.
Best of luck to you.
B at thelivingsky.wordpress.com

Hi - should I call you B or thelivingsky? I initially didn't want to post the chart here because I knew that the original thread was under Natal for that T-square question. However, I noticed that the thread moved to Readings so I will post the chart. I can also add some additional for the purpose of study, if it looks like there is something significant you want to investigate. I'm pretty open and honest but I have to take into account that I'm sharing the private details of others, too, so some things I might want to pm rather than broadcast!

Happyavocado, With your first house planets opposing your 7th house planets, notably Pluto opposing your sun and moon, it's to be expected that you want to be in a secure relationship but really mistrust them. Also, an Aries moon really needs its space. You always need some independence, even when part of a couple.

People with Pluto opposing their moon (Mom) or Sun (Dad) often had a dysfunctional relationship with their parent/s, and this can affect their ability to form close, trusting relationships later in life.

With the recent chart you posted, do you have a correct birth time? If not, it's best to input the birth time as "unknown," so that you don't get houses that look real but are actually bogus.

Hi waybread,

Right on the money with problems with mom... and it probably doesn't help that she's got a Pluto conj Asc too.* At first I thought you were asking about my own birth time - my mother went into a rage last time I asked her about my birth time so I have to take it as accurate.

As for my partner's chart, I used an accurate birth time (given to me by his mother). I removed the time, date and place details because it's his chart I'm sharing... maybe its a little bit of Pluto paranoia but while I can be open and forthright with my own data, I am reluctant to do so with the data of others. Date, time and place are all in order. Did you think the planets were bogus because of the missing data or because his chart didn't agree with what you have heard of him?

* problems with dad would probably include that he was fairly absent but usually doting, which I believe caused more problems with my mother and me.

Oh,no-- just that where data are erased, we can't double-check that the birth time looks accurate. Some people are born at exactly 12:00 noon, for example, but not many. When I see something like that, I suspect a made-up birth time. Generally the planets will be OK except possibly the moon, but the house cusps can be way off with a guesstimated birth time.

Cute avatar!

Yeah, he's pretty close to 12 noon, though not exact. In regards to the transformation... should I provide any more information (I don't want to "lead" anyone if they want to do this without possible red herrings thrown in).