astrohoraryturkey
Member
Can we predict death with horary? I want to know when will I die? What will the cause? I tried to read it but I couldn't.
Can we predict death with horary?
- Thread starter astrohoraryturkey
- Start date
astrohoraryturkey
Member
My grandma came and we are talking too much about death nowadays. I'm curious, will I age like her or die young.
tsmall
Premium Member
Yes, you can, but only if all other charts (natal, profection, solar return) agree with it. We can't really ask "when will I die?" as a horary question.
waybread
Well-known member
No.
There was a huge thread on this some months ago, during which WW III pretty much broke out.
One question is "Can you?" If the answer were "yes" consistently, health care providers, nursing homes, life and health insurance companies, and actuarial scientists would be all over this one. For every astrologer who claims success, there are major failures. An astrologer who wrote a book on death prediction badly mistook the timing and manner of his own death.
Death prediction is accepted more in Hindu astrology, but I googled this topic a lot and was unable to determine the widespread accuracy or inaccuracy of such predictions. I found a couple of cases of men who disliked the prediction of their timing and manner of death-- so they literally jumped the gun and committed suicide. Another case involved an astrologer who publicized his own death prediction-- and nothing happened. Were death predictions accurate, these events would be impossible.
The other question is "should you?" There are all kinds of ethical concerns here, ranging from the power of suggestion on vulnerable or frightened people, notably with amateurs or bad professionals who don't even know much astrology. It is truly unethical to frighten someone through astrology, according to the ethics codes of major astrological explanations. Third party questions ("when will Grannie die?") are especially troublesome as invasions of that person's privacy. Grannie may not believe in astrology and may not want this inquiry. Sometimes third parties hope to inherit Grannie's money.
Death prediction is prohibited at Astrodienst.
I've heard the argument that the querent may want to rush to Grannie's deathbed but not buy a plane ticket for no reason, or make up to her for hard feelings in the past. This is a misuse of human relationships. Make up with Grannie now. Let her know now how much she means to you. Visit her now while she's in good health. Then whenever she passes, your relationship will have blossomed.
And no, I'm not particularly afraid of death. I have metaphysical beliefs that I hope will carry me through my transition to the other side. Dying is another matter, because it can be painful and take a long time. Which is why we should treasure our loved ones and the best of our lives each day that we can.
There was a huge thread on this some months ago, during which WW III pretty much broke out.
One question is "Can you?" If the answer were "yes" consistently, health care providers, nursing homes, life and health insurance companies, and actuarial scientists would be all over this one. For every astrologer who claims success, there are major failures. An astrologer who wrote a book on death prediction badly mistook the timing and manner of his own death.
Death prediction is accepted more in Hindu astrology, but I googled this topic a lot and was unable to determine the widespread accuracy or inaccuracy of such predictions. I found a couple of cases of men who disliked the prediction of their timing and manner of death-- so they literally jumped the gun and committed suicide. Another case involved an astrologer who publicized his own death prediction-- and nothing happened. Were death predictions accurate, these events would be impossible.
The other question is "should you?" There are all kinds of ethical concerns here, ranging from the power of suggestion on vulnerable or frightened people, notably with amateurs or bad professionals who don't even know much astrology. It is truly unethical to frighten someone through astrology, according to the ethics codes of major astrological explanations. Third party questions ("when will Grannie die?") are especially troublesome as invasions of that person's privacy. Grannie may not believe in astrology and may not want this inquiry. Sometimes third parties hope to inherit Grannie's money.
Death prediction is prohibited at Astrodienst.
I've heard the argument that the querent may want to rush to Grannie's deathbed but not buy a plane ticket for no reason, or make up to her for hard feelings in the past. This is a misuse of human relationships. Make up with Grannie now. Let her know now how much she means to you. Visit her now while she's in good health. Then whenever she passes, your relationship will have blossomed.
And no, I'm not particularly afraid of death. I have metaphysical beliefs that I hope will carry me through my transition to the other side. Dying is another matter, because it can be painful and take a long time. Which is why we should treasure our loved ones and the best of our lives each day that we can.
JUPITERASC
Well-known member
Death IS predictable as tsmall has just said
however the MORALITY of doing so has proven a big issue
MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread discussion http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628&highlight=morality
however the MORALITY of doing so has proven a big issue
MORALITY OF PREDICTING DEATH thread discussion http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=64628&highlight=morality
tikana
Well-known member
Can we predict death with horary? I want to know when will I die? What will the cause? I tried to read it but I couldn't.
sure you can
but problem is you need to have a good reason to ask that
let's say a sickness, or accident, going to war or during childbirth something along those lines.. randomly asking when will i die? A. you are running into problems with validating the chart. B .. ethics of an astrologer involved.
I wouldnt touch it
T
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tsmall
Premium Member
Astrology, including horary, is a lot like Mickey with the mops in Fantasia. You can get them going, but probably can't control them once you do.
Death prediction, morality aside, takes more than the average astrologer has the skills to do. Meaning "don't try this at home." There is a heirarchy to charts, and horary ranks down at the bottom. There is a saying, "horary can't bring what natal doesn't promise." On top of that, natal bows to mundane, and then there's the whole "If God Wills" caveat.
Last summer we had two "death" predictions. One about a dog
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85109
And another from someone who was entirely too fascinated with her husband's demise
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85306
It's not about whether it can be done, or even should be done, or whether some other forum or astrological society prohibits it, or even if it bothers a large number of people. It's about accepting that the chart is never wrong, but the astrologer often is.
Death prediction, morality aside, takes more than the average astrologer has the skills to do. Meaning "don't try this at home." There is a heirarchy to charts, and horary ranks down at the bottom. There is a saying, "horary can't bring what natal doesn't promise." On top of that, natal bows to mundane, and then there's the whole "If God Wills" caveat.
Last summer we had two "death" predictions. One about a dog
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85109
And another from someone who was entirely too fascinated with her husband's demise
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85306
It's not about whether it can be done, or even should be done, or whether some other forum or astrological society prohibits it, or even if it bothers a large number of people. It's about accepting that the chart is never wrong, but the astrologer often is.
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tikana
Well-known member
there is this here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8513
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/fidel-castro-dead.php
LOL
btw Lilly does have a chapter who will live longer husband or wife? Why was it important? because of transfer of properties and etc.
here is one
https://books.google.com/books?id=5...DDSwQ6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=live longer&f=false
page 251
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8513
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/more-horary/fidel-castro-dead.php
LOL
btw Lilly does have a chapter who will live longer husband or wife? Why was it important? because of transfer of properties and etc.
here is one
https://books.google.com/books?id=5...DDSwQ6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=live longer&f=false
page 251
waybread
Well-known member
To say that "charts are never wrong" is a matter of faith, because really all we have are astrologers' interpretations of charts. And certainly astrologers can be mistaken, and charts can be cast for the wrong time.
To reverse engineer the problem, Geoffrey Cornelius, in his book The Moment of Astrology, pp. 50-53, discussed something called the New York suicide study. The NCGR researchers obtained from public records 311 charts of people who committed suicide in NYC during a 5-year period plus a control group of 311 charts from NYC, anonymized the charts, and then ran a huge and varied battery of statistical tests on a wide range of chart factors to see what, if any, astrological variables predicted suicide with any consistency. The results were dismal.
Cornelius examined one suicide chart in particular, and concluded that Neptune in the 7th was a valid signature, alongside other chart factors present at the moment of death. Well, here I part company, because roughly 1/12 of the human population will be born with Neptune in the 7th, and millions of people will have Neptune in the 7th through progression or transit without resorting to suicide. If you were given this chart knowing nothing of the circumstances of the individual, you might merely conclude he'd be going through a rough patch, with progressed sun square natal Saturn. Obviously traditional astrologers wouldn't touch this one, either.
I've made a desultory study of Hellenistic astrology, from an ancient era when most people didn't live so long, and infant mortality was high. Astrologers given infants' horoscopes would oftentimes first run a test to predict whether the child would survive infancy, reasoning that there was no point in delineating a chart if an early death was forecast.
In ancient Rome, where many people died as young children, children who made it to age 10 still had a life expectancy only into their 40s or 50s. This pattern was typical of medieval Europe: a lot of people didn't survive childhood, but if they did, their average life expectancy was still only around 50. (Life expectancy means the age by which half of the members of a given birth year cohort are still living, and half have died.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
A low life expectancy pertained throughout the time that the more traditional astrological techniques were being developed. But life expectancies in the developed world have been steadily rising, well into their 80s for many people today. Compare this to a big collection of horoscopes and I don't see how the old calculations could still apply, when astrologers were familiar with much higher mortality rates at younger ages.
There is also the problem of a natural disaster like a tsunami or cultural disaster like a plane crash that wipes out hundreds or thousands of people at once, even though their ages would vary dramatically. Presumably the disaster chart takes precedence over the individual charts, but there is simply no way to test any of this.
I happen to think that some people are psychic and that some people with psychic ability study astrology, which accounts for the correct predictions.
Today, I think it makes more sense for an astrologer to say, as sensitively as possible, that someone is likely to go through a critical period, should seek medical attention, and so on. That an astrologer can frighten the bejeezus out of a vulnerable or mentally unstable person is not where we want to be going. Certainly not with complete strangers on an Internet forum.
But also to recognize that a human life is in God's hands, not the astrologer's. For atheists, we all need to accept our very human fallibility with a lot of humility, and acknowledge that horoscopes typically admit of multiple interpretations and mitigation measures.
To reverse engineer the problem, Geoffrey Cornelius, in his book The Moment of Astrology, pp. 50-53, discussed something called the New York suicide study. The NCGR researchers obtained from public records 311 charts of people who committed suicide in NYC during a 5-year period plus a control group of 311 charts from NYC, anonymized the charts, and then ran a huge and varied battery of statistical tests on a wide range of chart factors to see what, if any, astrological variables predicted suicide with any consistency. The results were dismal.
Cornelius examined one suicide chart in particular, and concluded that Neptune in the 7th was a valid signature, alongside other chart factors present at the moment of death. Well, here I part company, because roughly 1/12 of the human population will be born with Neptune in the 7th, and millions of people will have Neptune in the 7th through progression or transit without resorting to suicide. If you were given this chart knowing nothing of the circumstances of the individual, you might merely conclude he'd be going through a rough patch, with progressed sun square natal Saturn. Obviously traditional astrologers wouldn't touch this one, either.
I've made a desultory study of Hellenistic astrology, from an ancient era when most people didn't live so long, and infant mortality was high. Astrologers given infants' horoscopes would oftentimes first run a test to predict whether the child would survive infancy, reasoning that there was no point in delineating a chart if an early death was forecast.
In ancient Rome, where many people died as young children, children who made it to age 10 still had a life expectancy only into their 40s or 50s. This pattern was typical of medieval Europe: a lot of people didn't survive childhood, but if they did, their average life expectancy was still only around 50. (Life expectancy means the age by which half of the members of a given birth year cohort are still living, and half have died.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
A low life expectancy pertained throughout the time that the more traditional astrological techniques were being developed. But life expectancies in the developed world have been steadily rising, well into their 80s for many people today. Compare this to a big collection of horoscopes and I don't see how the old calculations could still apply, when astrologers were familiar with much higher mortality rates at younger ages.
There is also the problem of a natural disaster like a tsunami or cultural disaster like a plane crash that wipes out hundreds or thousands of people at once, even though their ages would vary dramatically. Presumably the disaster chart takes precedence over the individual charts, but there is simply no way to test any of this.
I happen to think that some people are psychic and that some people with psychic ability study astrology, which accounts for the correct predictions.
Today, I think it makes more sense for an astrologer to say, as sensitively as possible, that someone is likely to go through a critical period, should seek medical attention, and so on. That an astrologer can frighten the bejeezus out of a vulnerable or mentally unstable person is not where we want to be going. Certainly not with complete strangers on an Internet forum.
But also to recognize that a human life is in God's hands, not the astrologer's. For atheists, we all need to accept our very human fallibility with a lot of humility, and acknowledge that horoscopes typically admit of multiple interpretations and mitigation measures.