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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #26  
Unread 03-29-2014, 05:39 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Examining the sunrise times for Hereford England, on the date of the OP's birth, the time of birth is fully 1 hour earlier than the time of sunrise. The Sun is 12 degrees below the ascendant line in the chart. Crepuscular sunrise, as I understand it, occurs when, although the body of the Sun is still under the horizon, the amount of light is sufficient for objects to be distinguishable (assuming a clear or mostly clear sky), so that outdoor activities can commence. Historically this has been referred to when the Sun is 6 degrees below the horizon (in astrology, 6 degrees below the ascendant line) In the OP's chart, the Sun is 12 degrees below, so it seems that the Sun is beyond the limit of what could be considered as a crepuscular sunrise: I'd have to conclude that the OP's chart is, essentially, a nocturnal one. "Crepuscluar" means "twilight" and I think, given the sunrise data, this chart is more of a twilight one than a decidedly nocturnal one: however, for delineative purposes, I myself would view it as "nocturnal".
The timing of a birth dr. farr is always a crucial factor
in that it is entirely possible that the actual birth occurred some time before it was actually noted on medical records
- and in this particular case, if the birth was noted some time earlier -
then the Sun may well have been very close to the horizon

FURTHERMORE

even if we accept the official time of birth,
I notice that the Moon is clearly above the horizon
and since the Moon opposes the Sun
the birth occurred very close to a Full Moon

and

That Full Moon is clearly lighting up the skies since it is clearly above the Horizon/Descendant by four degrees or so

and

With a bright rising Sun approaching the Ascendant
while opposing a brilliant and bright Full Moon above the horizon
clearly the skies were very bright


much brighter than if for example the Moon had been a quarter Moon and well below the horizon

Both Moon and Sun are in separating square with Saturn
Saturn, albeit in his own Ptolemaic terms, is uncomfortably located in the domicile of the Sun
While the Sun is peregrine

Sun and Saturn are in challenging aspect with an Angular, Exalted, in Triplicity and in own Face, Moon




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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 03-29-2014 at 06:42 PM. Reason: clarification
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Unread 03-29-2014, 07:48 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I notice that the Moon is clearly above the horizon
and since the Moon opposes the Sun
the birth occurred very close to a Full Moon
Total Lunar Eclipse at 25°57' Taurus. I'm familiar because I was born 3 days later.
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  #28  
Unread 03-29-2014, 08:38 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Total Lunar Eclipse at 25°57' Taurus. I'm familiar because I was born 3 days later.
So one wonders as to how your natal Saturn functions....
by the way
the Total Lunar Eclipse did not occur until much later the evening of the same day at 22:28HRS GMT
i.e.
Sixteen Hours AFTER the OP was born
Therefore the Moon was not eclipsed at the time of the OP's birth
but shone brightly in the night skies

HOWEVER

notice that the OP's Ascendant
is remarkably close, within three degrees

of the degree of the Solar Eclipse of 3 November 1975
that Solar eclipse was at 10 Scorpio 29
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Unread 03-29-2014, 10:07 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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  #30  
Unread 03-29-2014, 10:54 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
Greetings,

According to Rumen Kolev, “The Babylonian Astrology & Astronomy”, page 4, the sunrise starts when in the the night, we see the first time, a hallo of light in the eastern horizon. The day starts when the sunrise starts. When Helios reaches 12 degrees above the horizon, the stars of +4 m will be already disappearing from zenith
I have purchased several of Rumen Kolev's excellent publications and his software Porphyrius Magus as well http://www.babylonianastrology.com/i...emart&Itemid=1 and it is evident that he is not only an astrologer
but also
he is a skilled and knowledgeable PRACTICING astronomer
and is therefore speaking from personal experience.

http://www.babylonianastrology.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
When you compute the Epikratetor (Apheta, Hyleg), the giver of Light (life). Helios in the AS (east) will predominate over Selene in DS (west). Predomination is a distinct chapter which implies primarly, the sect of the chart. This can be discuss in another topic
A useful and interesting topic to discuss on another thread if you would like to commence one Marius, many thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
Anyway, the Full Moon phase, rejoice with the heliacal sect.
This is because Selene is full of light, its brilliance reaches aprox -12m.
This makes the sky brighter, as JupiterASC was pointing out.

In this particular chart, in my opinion, the dichotomy will be in favor for the diurnal planets from both Lights.
The maleficence of Kronos will be lessen
The question of course to be more clearly determined is, exactly how 'heavily debilitated' Saturn is
and to that end, this is a most interesting and useful discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
...I rather say that, the impulse is found in the succedent places, achieved in angular ones and distributed by the cadent ones. But each house is different, like the fingers of your hand.

What you have just described is called Cosmical Setting.

You made Kronos “ completely incompetent”, which in my opinion, is not true. From there I drag the conclusion that you see Kronos weak, unable to conduct its businesses. That’s why I wrote a short description of its fitness (ability) on planetary level. See my first message.

This discussion will go nowhere, if we judge like this, what each member wrote.

I read Kate’s exposure and her wish was to know if Kronos will operate very negatively in her life.

I quote


I am looking for a Traditional answer:
Saturn should operate very negatively in my life,
and yet he doesn't seem to.

Yes, my father is a total waste of space at best,
but apart from that,
Saturn has been more friend than foe to me,
and I cannot fathom why”
.

My answere was
"
Kronos will tend to give mixed results:
not very bad, but not good either
"
.
Clearly Saturn/Kronos is aometimes giving good results,
sometimes not so good results
so therefore Saturn/Kronos is neither 'totally incompetent'
nor 'totally competent' either
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  #31  
Unread 03-30-2014, 04:01 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I completely agree with Marius Cojoc's conclusion that, in the OP's chart, Saturn is not a complete or decided malefic, but rather is of mixed influence.



(Note: I have come to the conclusion of a mixed Saturnine influence in my posts and a similar "mixed Saturn influence" conclusion has also been stated or implied, in the posts by Larxene and Ebenia)

Last edited by dr. farr; 03-30-2014 at 04:06 AM.
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  #32  
Unread 03-30-2014, 04:27 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post

even if we accept the official time of birth,
I notice that the Moon is clearly above the horizon
and since the Moon opposes the Sun
the birth occurred very close to a Full Moon

and

That Full Moon is clearly lighting up the skies since it is clearly above the Horizon/Descendant by four degrees or so

and

With a bright rising Sun approaching the Ascendant
while opposing a brilliant and bright Full Moon above the horizon
clearly the skies were very bright




These are excellent points regarding the state of LIght at the OP's birth.
As I stated in my post, I think this is a "twilight" chart vis-a-vis the situation regarding Light-and it could well be that IN FACT (if not technically, as per my post about crepuscular considerations) we have here a diurnal chart.
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  #33  
Unread 03-30-2014, 04:30 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post
Greetings,

According to Rumen Kolev, “The Babylonian Astrology & Astronomy”, page 4, the sunrise starts when in the the night, we see the first time, a hallo of light in the eastern horizon. The day starts when the sunrise starts. When Helios reaches 12 degrees above the horizon, the stars of +4 m will be already disappearing from zenith.

When you compute the Epikratetor (Apheta, Hyleg), the giver of Light (life). Helios in the AS (east) will predominate over Selene in DS (west). Predomination is a distinct chapter which implies primarly, the sect o the chart. This can be discuss in another topic.

Anyway, the Full Moon phase, rejoice with the heliacal sect. This is because Selene is full of light, its brilliance reaches aprox -12m. This makes the sky brighter, as JupiterASC was pointing out. In this particular chart, in my opinion, the dichotomy will be in favor for the diurnal planets from both Lights. The maleficence of Kronos will be lessen.
Excellent points regarding the condition of Light in the reference chart!
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Unread 03-30-2014, 04:34 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

If we have, defacto (due to the condition of Light) a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun, not Saturn (see OP's comments regarding her father)
Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes (in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")
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  #35  
Unread 03-30-2014, 04:36 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

PS: I would ask the OP to post on this thread again-we really need her to provide more of her experiences vis-a-vis Saturn!
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  #36  
Unread 03-30-2014, 12:15 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
If we have, defacto
(due to the condition of Light)
a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun,
not Saturn
(see OP's comments regarding her father)

Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes
(in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")
Certainly the Sun alone determines whether the chart is a day or a night chart
and
Since the Moon is bright due solely to the reflection of light received from the directly opposing Sun
then this is a most interesting natal chart
in terms of determining night/day and planetary sect
of this particular natal chart

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
PS:
I would ask the OP to post on this thread again
-we really need her to provide more of her experiences vis-a-vis Saturn!
tsmall has already highlighted Saturn being domicile ruler of 3rd and 4th whole sign houses
and I would add that Saturn's role as Exaltation ruler of 12th whole sign house requires examination also

I agree that we need the OP to focus on and post more detail on personal experiences of the topics of these houses
in order to better analyse Saturn's condition

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Unread 03-31-2014, 07:07 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Unread 03-31-2014, 03:20 PM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marius Cojoc View Post

Greetings

The birth time is very suspicious.
If Kate has the AS in 14 degree of the Scorpion, she would be short or medium in height, large shoulders, large head, dark and culry hair, reddish or brownish complexion.
Because Ares is oriental, I think that the body will be hairy.
Hepaistios suggest us that there will be a mark around the "bosom and the loins".
Katie's forum profile shows she joined the forum on 12 March 2014
then has posted only once,
to ask this interesting question on Saturn
BUT
has not logged in since,
so the mystery regarding details of her actual experiences regarding activities of natal Saturn
as well as her time of birth
necessarily shall remain a mystery unless she returns

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie View Post
Hello all,

I'm new to the forum
although I have been lurking and following threads here for a couple of years...

I wonder if anyone can help me understand Saturn in debility better!

I hope I have attached the file showing my chart.

Attachment 46528
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Unread 04-01-2014, 05:25 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
If we have, defacto (due to the condition of Light) a diurnal chart here, then the generic significator of the OP's father is the Sun, not Saturn (see OP's comments regarding her father)
Also, the firdaria chronocrator order changes (in my experiments with firdaria I use the tables given in al-Biruni's "Book of Instruction")
dr. farr, a couple of ideas. Not challenges, lol.

I still think it is a night Chart. Saturn's condition and the description the OP gave of her father, to me at least, suit more than Sun in the 1st in Scorpio. Especially since Sun is configured with Mercury, who is in Joy, at least in this chart.

My thoughts were running more along the lines (it would really help if the OP were to come back!) of the houses Saturn rules, and those that he regards. Using whole sign houses, Saturn rules the 3rd and 4th. He can see the 4th from opposition, but he cannot "see" or "regard" the 3rd. His detriment can therefor be "felt" or impact the 4th, but he is adverse to the 3rd. Are you following me?

As to the idea that he will give mixed results; we are all, myself included, missing the rest of the chart. Mars is the exaltation ruler of the 3rd, and though also retrograde, HIS ruler, Moon, is exalted in the 7th. She does regard him via sextile, so she is able to help him. She also sends her rays into the 3rd via trine. Some evidence perhaps that the significations of the 3rd house will be mitigated for all that the ruler of the 3rd is debilitated?

Larxene, you were quick to dismiss that Saturn is supported by both Moon and Venus, who look at him (with their rays) from the trine and sextile, and instead wanted to go to Jupiter. I would point out that Jupiter is retrograde in the chart, and doesn't station for another month after the nativity. Moon and Venus, in a night chart, are the in-sect benefics and that Venus is in domicile and Moon is in exaltation, both looking at Saturn, are actually quite beneficial influences for Saturn. That said, you do have a bit of an argument about Jupiter's influence, since he is moving toward being direct. There is a different delineative value in planets that are in thier first or second station. My point, since we are looking at this chart in the tropical zodiac (Marius, I must admit I am a bit surprised that you study Ruman Kolev/Babylonian Astrolgy and yet don't use the sidereal zodiac) is that Jupiter is in Aries, the sign of Saturn's fall. Sahl and others called this not-reception, but that is a bit of a misnomer. Saturn will reject anything from Jupiter (based on traditional ideas of rectption) because Jupiter, though a sectmate of Saturn, is in the very sign that Saturn hates the most.

Some other traditional ideas we have neglected: Triplicity rulers of each house will tell us how the houses will go during their tenure as time lords. We tried to take only one planet into consideration in a natal chart when we all <should> know better. The effects of a debilitated planet can be mitigated by the other planets, and those other planets can bear better "witness" to the happenings of a house, especially when the ruler of that house cannot see it. Despite the fact that a house/sign is ruled by a debilitated planet, there will be times when the affairs of that house will not suffer (profections and revolutions will be a good tool to tell us when.)
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Last edited by tsmall; 04-01-2014 at 05:27 AM.
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Unread 04-01-2014, 06:06 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

As I mentioned a few posts back, I too ultimately consider this a nocturnal chart although I regard the points made regarding the situation of the Light at the birth time, to be worthy of consideration and possibly to be a modifying factor (for me, ultimately I do consider the day to begin when the rim of the Sun breaks the visible horizon; but for me, since I consider the Vedic allocations of sect to be accurate, this makes Saturn in sect-however, we shall discount this consideration because of this being the Traditional WESTERN forum)

Looking at the totality of influences of other chart elements upon the Saturn condition, we find that only Venus aspects Saturn (by in-sign aspect rules) by degree aspects, and that is seperating. When I find such a situation (when evaluating planetary influences upon a particular planet or other chart element) I then go to the consideration of Hellenist platik aspects (that is, aspect by sign rather than by degree) Now we find (ie using Hellenist aspect by sign) much more:
-Moon squares Saturn
-Mercury squares Saturn
-Sun squares Saturn
...which for me adds to the - side of the Saturn situation here
And
-Venus trines Saturn
-Jupiter trines Saturn
...which for me adds to + side of the Saturn situation, especially in light of the doctrine (mentioned in an earlier post) of Jupiter (in aspect) "removing the harm of Saturn". I think that Saturn WILL accept at least something + from this platik trine by Jupiter, since both planets are in the same (ie Fiery) triplicity, and that Saturn shares co-rulership of that triplicity with Jupiter (and with the Sun) That trining (by sign) Jupiter is in the Fall of Saturn would (in my opinion) diminish the extent of this beneficial relationship, but (in my opinion) would not totally negate it.

So, again we are left (in my opinion) with a mixed totality of influences regarding Saturn in this chart: I really think we need more of the OP's input, to see if in actual life Saturn has been more of a malefic than of a benefic, or if in fact, its influences have been pretty mixed...
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Unread 04-02-2014, 03:50 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Larxene, you were quick to dismiss that Saturn is supported by both Moon and Venus, who look at him (with their rays) from the trine and sextile, and instead wanted to go to Jupiter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larxene View Post
One of the mitigating factor I would consider is the waxing Moon dominating Saturn with a dexter square. The Moon is in-sect, exalted and angular. In such a position, it tends to be beneficial to the native. It is still not full yet, but the waxing Moon is beneficial when aspecting the diurnal planets, Maternus implies.
Quote:
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I do not consider the sextile with Venus to be very helpful. Sextiles are very weak, and according to Maternus, they are only of middling strength when the sign in between is tropical or mutable (yours is mutable). So imagine, even at its full force (with the sign in between being an equinoctial sign, Aries or Libra), it is already very much weakened, so in a mutable sign the effects will be very slight.
First, I did not dismiss the Moon's beneficence towards Saturn. In fact, I consider it one of the main beneficial influences.

Secondly, while I agree that Venus is a benefic influence towards Saturn, I said that the effects will be very slight, and therefore not very helpful. I am following Maternus's doctrine in this, so other authors may say something different.

Okay, let me re-evaluate the combination.

Consider Venus's strength. In Libra (strong), matutine (middling), 12th House by WSH (weak). I would say about average or middle strength. Now consider Venus's favourability. In Libra (highly benefic), of the sect (highly benefic), 12th House by WSH (beneficence is strongly obstructed), Mars retrograde and in dexter quartile to Venus (beneficence is sometimes obstructed).

The aspect to Saturn is a sextile, the sign in between is bi-corporeal, Venus is on the left (weak benefic influence). With all these considerations, I still consider it to be a weak influence. This is because the highly beneficial influence of Venus is often being turned away from the native, and its relationship with Saturn is slight.

I would say that Venus's influence will be stronger and more effective on Jupiter, since they are in opposition.




I am not familiar with the use of trigon lords at the moment, so I do not use it.
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Unread 04-02-2014, 04:34 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I notice that Venus is also the grand (or ultimate) dispositor of this chart (the concept of grand/ultimate dispositor was introduced by Morin de Villefranche in the 17th century)

I agree that Venus has only a minor (albeit +) influence on Saturn: I consider the influence upon Saturn of Jupiter, to be much greater.

I'm not so sanguine about the Moon's influence in this chart, though: yes its angular and in exaltation, however the Moon is in platik (by sign) square to Saturn (in whole sign), and is in close opposition (by degrees) to first house Mercury, and is also within orb of opposition (by degrees) to the ascending degree itself; and the Moon is in platik (by sign) conjunction with the South Node: I'd read the Moon's influence under these circumstances as strong (by angularity and exaltation) but quite detrimental to certain other chart factors (ascending degree, Mercury, Saturn)....

Last edited by dr. farr; 04-02-2014 at 04:41 AM.
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Unread 04-02-2014, 05:09 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Let's just say that the effects of the Moon on Saturn are both favourable and unfavourable. In fact, Maternus would probably say that this combination (along with Sun in the 1st) causes death of the parents, or wretchedness.
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Unread 04-02-2014, 05:13 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Right-and notice what the OP said relating to her father.
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Unread 04-02-2014, 07:44 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

In my opinion,

Kronos has two friends: Aphrodite because of the Balance and Hermes because of the Twins. This is the hellenistic doctrine of sunoikodespotes or joint domicile master, which you will find in the vedic astrology as friends and foes doctrine. Neither of them could provide help because Kronos dosen’t recive their testimonies. Testimony appears only when the figure (hexagonal, tetragonal etc) is perfected before that, one of the planets, leaves their image. The hellenistic doctrine of aspects is very elaborate and definitely implies orbs.

Reception is made trough the confines. Kronos is in the confines of Zeus. Kronos and Zeus are in a trigonal figure, but because the figure is not perfected before one of the planets leaves their image, there is no testimony. No testimony, no real help.

Kronos is in the first heliacal cycle, oriental to Helios. This lessens the maleficence of Kronos. This phase support the planet to conduct its businesses for Helios agenda. This really helps.

Selene is in a tetragonal figure with Kronos. The figure, will be perfected before one of the planet leaves their image. This is a testimonial relationship. Selene waxing in light or full, especially in a day chart, is favorable to Kronos and Zeus. Selene will provide great fortune after great calamities. Selene is in a superior position, in the 10th image from Kronos. We deal with the issue of decimation (overcoming). Kronos will be conquered by Selene. Also this, really helps.
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Last edited by Marius Cojoc; 04-02-2014 at 08:01 AM.
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Unread 04-03-2014, 03:11 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Marius, can you elaborate on the sunoikodespotes?

Googling the terms I found two relevant results. The term loosely means "with the domicile master (of the chart)". Apparently there are two ways to interpret that, but the one mainly used is the bound/term lord of the predominator (Epikratetor if I understand correctly?) Using either the Sun or Moon as predominator and Dorothean terms, we get Mercury or Jupiter respectively. I don't know how you got Mercury and Venus.
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Unread 04-03-2014, 07:10 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

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Unread 04-04-2014, 05:14 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ebenia View Post
You are absolutely correct in the fact that your Saturn is heavily debilitated. However, everyone here has missed the obvious, very easy to spot thing, and that is the saving grace of Jupiter. Your Jupiter is aspecting the houses that are influenced by Saturn - 9th house where Saturn lies, is 5th house from Jupiter so Jupiter aspects that house and protects it. So for example when you had problems with school, Jupiter came in just in time and saved you from having rest of your life problems because you would not have finished your last term exams...but you just did! That is shown by Jupiters saving grace.

Jupiter also aspects 1st house from its 9th aspect, bringing optimism into your personality and ability to turn abilities into knowledge and wisdom and make yourself opportunities. Saturn rules your 3rd house, which can definitely show that you were probably overly structured and overly perfectionistic in early school, like primary school. It might have been that you were quite serious when you were this age and it might be that the time was quite tough on you.

So overall Saturn does not have a lot of play room in your chart really, cause everywhere it tries to do damage, Jupiter comes in an protects and diminishes its effects. Saturn can roam a bit and make some parts of your life difficult at times, but you will always be saved by Jupiter. It is like your little guardian angel.

Hope this helps!
This is a really great post because I wanted to tell the OP that the reason Saturn hasn't done so much expected damage is because she has a really great attitude! It makes perfect sense that Jupiter is softening those potential blows.

Great thread guys!
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Unread 04-04-2014, 05:20 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

I am going to save further comments and observations I have regarding OP's Saturn situation, until the OP returns here and tells us what she thinks-based on her own experiences-of what we posters to this thread, have had to say, regarding Saturn's influences in the OP's life.
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Unread 02-02-2015, 11:55 AM
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Re: Heavily debilitated Saturn behaving WELL?

that is a good news an aspects of saturn if its doing good then what could be more promising
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