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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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Unread 02-14-2012, 12:38 PM
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Hyleg and Alcocoden

This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:
Quote:
The Hyleg is a planet in the chart that fulfils certain conditions. Once found, it
signifies that life is present. Generally the planet’s individual nature does not reflect
on the quality of this life force, but the presence of a Hyleg tells the astrologer that life
is granted to the horoscope. The astrologer will then look for the planet, which has a
certain relationship to the Hyleg, and this planet is called the Alcoccoden. The duty of
the Alcoccoden is to allocate the years or length of life. If there is no Hyleg in a chart,
there can be no Alcoccoden.
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
whitney houston traditional.jpg

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
years of the planets.jpg

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.

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Unread 02-14-2012, 05:10 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated!

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 06:09 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 07:29 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:05 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Omnisphericus, that's an uncannily accurate example you just illustrated!

So in a hypothetical case... if potential Hyleg IS ONE OF the dignity rulers BUT is not aspecting any of the other dignity rulers would you eliminate that planet as Hyleg and continue to the next potential candidate? If not then Hyleg could be also Alcocoden?

- e.g. (a) Night chart, Moon in Cancer above horizon in a feminine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn (b) Day chart Sun in Leo above the horizon in a masculine quarter but not in aspect to Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter or Saturn.
JUPITERASC, I'm not familiar of the probability of Hyleg to be Alcocoden also.
I think that I read somewhere that that possibility is possible too, but I'm not quite familiar with where and when and in what occasions.
In other words, I'm not sure. But it is a very good question and I look forward to find answer on it.
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:27 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingTheSeas View Post
Omnisphericus,

You said :If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

What about suicides? It has to be the same with accidents and homicides. So for many many people Hyleg and Alco does not work because many many people die in road accidents, sea and air accidents, earthquakes, tsunamis e.t.c.

I've read somewhere (don't remember where), that Alcocoden's protection stops after the end of period, in the case of late Whitney Houston Mars 40,5 years but doesn't that means that life ends but the protection ends.
Hmm interesting reasoning. I think that even suicides and accidents of all kind happen first in the mental/astral realm and the condition of the natives mental/astral bodies is a causative trigger here. In other words, the mental-emotional make up of the person is leading him toward physical accidents.
I never saw in my life quite balanced emotionally person to have an accident. Somehow these persons are mastering the physical plane with their mental-emotional vitality.
I can recall of the example which Swami Yogananda gives. Someday in his region an accident happen to some kid: he looses the finger.
Yogananda said to him later: "I saw a dark cloud above your head prior your accident". Vedic astrologers says that planetary configurations (accordingly with the transits, directions and in correlation to the natal chart) opens an astral door for some significance, or mental-astral material which enters in that persons well being. How mature and how it would handle that it is up to the person and maybe some other factors of which we are not aware.
My point here is that physical plane is not all that it exists. So the vitality is something which is and can be relative for a person who works on their inner self developing. Hermeticists says: (Astra inclinant, non necessitant) The stars incline; they do not determine.
So, in a way, the life of the man who is spiritually advanced and the one who is not is different. The first is less predictable than the second.
But again, we can see how very advanced spiritual masters die younger than some quite ordinary man.
It is a deep subject, and my reasoning here is speculative and subjective, but at the moment it is the best I can give.
However, I'm not sure whether the Alcocoden acts as protection. But it can be said like that, it is a state of the vital force, its condition in your 3 bodies: mental, astral and physical. If one is an Alchemist, working with the Stone which is made by man's sperm in which it is pressed a vital force in the maximum amount in human's body, than one can gain immortality, so the Alcocoden here does not count! You have transmute the Alcocoden!
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Unread 02-14-2012, 10:29 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
Thank you for that very good example. I will study it more when I have time. The sun is hyleg in my chart, but the alcocoden has proved elusive so I must have no years. My sun, moon and other planets are conjunct deadly fixed stars, and from time to time dangerous accidents take me by surprise, but I am still here.
Culpeper, don't be so negative. Do not let astrology to be your self-fulfilling prophecy!
If you have a good positioned benefics it can be very helpful. Do you have your chart posted on this forum?
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Unread 02-15-2012, 04:03 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I have a question, if I may.

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)
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Unread 02-15-2012, 04:54 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I have a question, if I may.



First to clarify that in this explination "quarter" is synonomous with house? I understand that if Sun or Moon are not positioned as described, we need to look to an alternate, and again in Whitney's chart you have done so. How to decide which alternate to look at first? Is the SAN the next one, and what to do if it is Conjunctional (and out of curiosity, what if it's an eclipse?)
No, quarter is a set of 3 houses: 1,2,3/4,5,6/7,8,9/10,11,12/
If Sun or Moon are not adequate for Hyleg then you look to the Syzygy (SAN - Syzygyium Ante Nativatem), if the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon it is said that the chart is Conjunctional and you look for the ASC as potential Hyleg.
If the last lunation prior the birth was Full Moon, it is said that the chart is Preventional and you look to the PoF for potential Hyleg.

Lilly suggest that if nor Sun nor Moon can not be Hyleg, then you go to the Degree of the New Moon (Conjunction) if the chart is diurnal (sun above the horizon in the natal chart) and you take the Almuten (the planet which has the highest dignity points in that degree) of that degree in which the Moon is in the syzygy of the new moon; that planet is potential Hyleg (in this method all planets can be Hyleg).
If the chart is nocturnal (Sun bellow the horizon in the natal chart) you took the last Full Moon (Preventional) Degree and seek the Almuten of that degree to be the potential Hyleg planet.
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Unread 02-15-2012, 05:44 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I apologize if I seem dense, but I am trying to understand when the Hyleg is not obvious. From my own chart, Sun is in Libra above the horizon but only 12* above the ASC. So 12th or 1st depending on the house system preferred. Moon is in Pisces below the horizon, in 6th. So according to the explination, neither can be Hyleg. Since it is a day chart, next we look at the prenatal lunation, in this case a New Moon/eclipse at 18Virgo53, and see what planet has most dignity. That would be Mercury, hands down, right? Mercury gets 9 points (domicile and exaltation ruler) Venus is triplicity and face ruler for 4 points (though in fall -4...does that even out to 0?) and Saturn gets 2 for term. So, Mercury has most dignity. But, Mercury is in Libra at 10* and makes no aspect to that degree. Is it still Hyleg? Nothing makes an in orb aspect to that degree. The closest is moon at 27Pis41, and Saturn retro at 7 Taurus Mercury is retro and combust, and Moon is peregrine and cadent. Are they disqualified?
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Unread 02-15-2012, 06:14 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
I apologize if I seem dense, but I am trying to understand when the Hyleg is not obvious. From my own chart, Sun is in Libra above the horizon but only 12* above the ASC. So 12th or 1st depending on the house system preferred. Moon is in Pisces below the horizon, in 6th. So according to the explination, neither can be Hyleg. Since it is a day chart, next we look at the prenatal lunation, in this case a New Moon/eclipse at 18Virgo53, and see what planet has most dignity. That would be Mercury, hands down, right? Mercury gets 9 points (domicile and exaltation ruler) Venus is triplicity and face ruler for 4 points (though in fall -4...does that even out to 0?) and Saturn gets 2 for term. So, Mercury has most dignity. But, Mercury is in Libra at 10* and makes no aspect to that degree. Is it still Hyleg? Nothing makes an in orb aspect to that degree. The closest is moon at 27Pis41, and Saturn retro at 7 Taurus Mercury is retro and combust, and Moon is peregrine and cadent. Are they disqualified?
tsmall, it would be better to post your chart if you are able and willing to do that.
If Sun is in 12th but 5 degrees near the AC then it can be Hyleg, but with 12 you are right, it can not be!
According to Lilly you are looking at the degree of the syzygy moon, but according to Bonatti and his friends we first go with the AC and PoF.
So, we first look what lunation was prior the birth, if the Moon is waning in phase then the last lunation was Full Moon so we take PoF as potential Hyleg.
If the moon phase in your chart is in waxing phase then the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon so we look at the AC as potential Hyleg.

'The Lilly's method' I use last, when nothing of this 4 can not be Hyleg: Sun,Moon,Ac,PoF.
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Unread 02-15-2012, 07:22 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Omnisphericus, I really appreciate your offering a more learned take on "death clock astrology" than the run-of-the-mill "OMG, my sun just moved into the 8th house!" and so on.

So here are a few of my problems with all of this. Please set me straight where you think I've misinterpreted something. I am relying heavily on James R. Lewis, ed., The Astrology Book; Fred Gettings, The Arkana Dictionary of Astrology; and the glossary at Skyscript.

1. The Skyscript definition of alcocoden www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/alchocoden.html leaves me wondering whether some charts wouldn't have this degree point at all, especially if one restricts the planets to the 7 of traditional astrology. Have you ever found this to be the case? Gettings says that the alcocoden is simply the Arab term for hyleg. So there appear to be different interpretations of what this is and how to apply it.

2. There are different methods for calculating the hyleg, and they don't all agree. I've come across references to different methods in Neugebauer and Van Hoesen, Greek Horoscopes ( Babillus); Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos; Dorotheus (Carmen Astrologicum) Guido Bonatti (as explained in Zoller's Tools and Techniques of the Medieval Astrologers; )William Lilly; John Gadbury, and Henry Coley (Lewis, p. 346.) Vettius Valens (Anthologies) also has a long section on predicting length of life. According to J. Lee Lehman in the Lewis encyclopedia, the astrologer Penny Shelton checked out six different methods for calculating the hyleg with reference to a school shooting in Scotland in 1996, in which some children died and some survived. Apparently she found the Bonatti method to work the best, although Lehman suggested some omissions in her methodology. So which one is the correct method?

3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.

Of course, it's different if someone wants to go back and see how a given method pans out for someone who is already deceased. Far be it from me to limit intellectual inquiry, provided they don't try to apply it to their friends or clients.

I will note that death prediction was a big reason why astrology was banned at different times in the past ; and a big reason why rational people dismissed astrology during the late Renaissance, when some notorious death predictions were incorrect-- by several years. (Cf. Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology; Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.)

4. I think there is a rational problem, as well. How good are any of these methods in predicting mass deaths, where the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of people are nearly simultaneous? If a jumbo jet blows up (cf. the Lockerbie, Scotland crash), if thousands of people are swept away by a tsunami (as has happened in recent years in Southeast Asia and Japan) or when atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it just beggers credulity to think that each of these victims' alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated.

Length of life remains a huge concern today, but it must have been even more so in the past when life expectancy was so low and many children died in infancy. Today in the US/Canada, the average life expectancy for women is around 80 years. (Definition of average life expectancy: the age by which half the members of a specific age cohort have died.) And most of the earlier mortality occurs when women are elderly. It is hard to imagine that somehow all of these millions of horoscopes got recalibrated to account for the various reasons why people are living longer.
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Unread 02-15-2012, 11:59 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
tsmall, it would be better to post your chart if you are able and willing to do that.
If Sun is in 12th but 5 degrees near the AC then it can be Hyleg, but with 12 you are right, it can not be!
According to Lilly you are looking at the degree of the syzygy moon, but according to Bonatti and his friends we first go with the AC and PoF.
So, we first look what lunation was prior the birth, if the Moon is waning in phase then the last lunation was Full Moon so we take PoF as potential Hyleg.
If the moon phase in your chart is in waxing phase then the last lunation prior the birth was New Moon so we look at the AC as potential Hyleg.

'The Lilly's method' I use last, when nothing of this 4 can not be Hyleg: Sun,Moon,Ac,PoF.
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions.

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnishpericus View Post
Actually, the Hyleg and Alcocoden were to show the actual Life (Vital) Force in the particular person according to their condition in the chart.
Hyleg is the 'Giver of Life', or the giver of Vitality. Alcocoden is 'The Giver of Years'.
Bonatti call this 'Esse' or the Condition of the native.
We now can go further to see the root of the word 'Essential'. So the Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Essentiality of the person's 'nature', and according to the planet's condition in the chart it was given the proportional amount of time for living. As you've mentioned, in modern times this proportional time of living (by the conditions shown in the chart) is prolonged by the means of modern apparatus, though in my own experimenting with Hyleg and Alcocoden in the charts of already dead persons (of which I didn't knew the actual year of death while calculating) this number does not go further then 5-6 years - and +, though in most of the cases I was close to 1-2 year of the actual death.

We must say here that an accidental death is not count here. If a person dies from a serial killer, or in a car accident, or fell out of the bridge, it does not count. Alcocoden and Hyleg, as I've said, shows the actual amount of Life Force, or the amount of Vitality, not the destiny of the end of time of particular man.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 01:23 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
What happens if it doesn't? Does it lose its position as Hyleg and we move on to examine the next available candidate?
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Unread 02-16-2012, 04:18 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

tsmall, you might have missed the following in my previous post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
....several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.

Of course, it's different if someone wants to go back and see how a given method pans out for someone who is already deceased. Far be it from me to limit intellectual inquiry, provided they don't try to apply it to their friends or clients.....
But let's not kid ourselves as to how these formulae are used.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:02 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
tsmall, you might have missed the following in my previous post.



But let's not kid ourselves as to how these formulae are used.
waybread, you know that I think the world of you, and we are not talking about the TNG episode with the 60ish scientist who is required by law to self terminate here. I didn't miss what you posted, and I don't think any other subscribers to this thread did either. The thing is, this is the traditional forum, and we are allowed to discuss traditional astrology here..and as you yourself pointed out, traditionally astrologers were concerned with length of life. As this is primarily a learning forum, and no one here to my knowledge is anyone's client, and it has been stipulated that these are methods that are both contested and approximate...we are not looking at the acutal prediction of death? More like, we are looking at the essence of life, and vitality, and learning something that many, many traditional astrologers had an opinion on. So, while I humbly get that you have an objection...where's the harm in understanding how the masters of traditional astrology considered the Hyleg and Alcocoden?
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:05 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.
For example-and completely different from the technique described in this thread-use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods: in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period, and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart-which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner; the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...

Last edited by dr. farr; 02-16-2012 at 05:08 AM.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:14 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
1. The Skyscript definition of alcocoden www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/alchocoden.html leaves me wondering whether some charts wouldn't have this degree point at all, especially if one restricts the planets to the 7 of traditional astrology. Have you ever found this to be the case? Gettings says that the alcocoden is simply the Arab term for hyleg. So there appear to be different interpretations of what this is and how to apply it.
Waybread, Bonatti gives the so called 4 Differentia Charts.
Here is a summary from Bernadette Brady:
Quote:
The First Differentia Chart
If the chart fulfils the following conditions, it is deemed to be a First Differentia Chart
and the native dies without taking food.

First Differentia - Ptolemy according to Bonatti

Look at the main Luminary of the chart (Sun by day and Moon by night.)
If the degree of this luminary as well as the degree of the Ascendant are both in a
partile conjunction, square or opposition to a non-dignified Malefic. AND the rulers
of BOTH Luminaries are cadent.
Then the chart is deemed a First Differentia chart.
Quote:
First Differentia - Ptolemy - from Tetrabiblos Book III
If either luminary be in an angle and one of the malefics is either conjunct that
luminary or on the midpoint of the two luminaries, while at the same time no benefic
may partake of the configuration AND the rulers of the luminaries are also located in
places belonging to or controlled by malefics, then the chart is a First Differentia chart

Quote:
Second Differentia charts
The same as First differentia charts but instead of partile aspects from the malefics to
the luminaries, there are orbs involved.
Quote:
Third Differentia Charts - The child dies before the age of 12 years old
Quote:
Fourth Differentia Charts - Charts that reach maturity and can obtain old age.
Any chart that has a Hyleg and thus an Alcoccoden and whose Almudebit is not
cadent while either it (the Almudebit) or the Ascendant or the Luminaries are being
weakened by a malefic.
So, if there is no Hyleg, there is great possibility that the chart is First or Second Differentia chart. In her article "Hyleg and Alcocoden", Brady gives a charts examples for these cases.

-------------
Quote:
2. There are different methods for calculating the hyleg, and they don't all agree.
So which one is the correct method?
This can be told by experimentation. I'm in a phase where I try the methods one by one and see which of them works the best.
The Whitney Houston's example I've calculate with the summary method of the points of which most of the authors agree, and which I gave in my first post on this thread.
But I aim to try them all one by one when I have more time to do that.
----------
Quote:
3. It just seems to me, in death prediction, that a wrong prediction is simply not good enough. This isn't like predicting whether someone will win the lottery or get the plum job. Death is final, finito; and a doomsday date would fill most people with a lot of anxiety. I have seen several members on this and another forum have the bejeesus scared out of them by a "friend" playing Sorcerer's Apprentice with their charts in this manner. For this and other ethical reasons, several astrological organizations prohibit their members from engaging in death prediction among their clients or forum members.
I agree, it can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Therefore the experienced astrologer would never predict a death of someone. Gauricius predicted a PROBABLE death of Henry the II, and he told him that, but as a matter of precaution. So, was the death of Henry the II a self-fulfilling prophecy is a matter of speculation and question for an open debate.

Quote:
I will note that death prediction was a big reason why astrology was banned at different times in the past ; and a big reason why rational people dismissed astrology during the late Renaissance, when some notorious death predictions were incorrect-- by several years. (Cf. Jim Tester, A History of Western Astrology; Tamsyn Barton, Ancient Astrology.)
Therefore Robert Zoller says: "I don't know, only God knows".
The past of the humanity and astrology through the ages is full with pseudo-astrologers, so they should not be the reason why we should throw out the predictive astrology. Actually, if you read all the traditional astrologers you will see that they all were PREDICTIONAL Astrologers, and not a character readers as many modern astrologers.
I don't say that the psychology astrology is wrong, it has certain positive aspects, but for me its not the Real Astrology and what Astrology really was in the past. So, bad reputation can be gained by several pseudo astrologers and this does not mean that astrology and its predictive aspect is all wrong. 'Pseudos' you have in every field of the sciences if astrology may be called a science (maybe not in a modern language).

Quote:
4. I think there is a rational problem, as well. How good are any of these methods in predicting mass deaths, where the deaths of hundreds or even thousands of people are nearly simultaneous? If a jumbo jet blows up (cf. the Lockerbie, Scotland crash), if thousands of people are swept away by a tsunami (as has happened in recent years in Southeast Asia and Japan) or when atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it just beggers credulity to think that each of these victims' alcocodens and hylegs got simultaneously activated.
Waybread, these are the questions which the astronomers and other non-believers in astrology's accuracy are using in their fights with astrologers.
I know that you have certain questions but I'm not an astrology apologet and I do not have the answers.

Quote:
Length of life remains a huge concern today, but it must have been even more so in the past when life expectancy was so low and many children died in infancy. Today in the US/Canada, the average life expectancy for women is around 80 years. (Definition of average life expectancy: the age by which half the members of a specific age cohort have died.) And most of the earlier mortality occurs when women are elderly. It is hard to imagine that somehow all of these millions of horoscopes got recalibrated to account for the various reasons why people are living longer.
I agree that today in modern times the life is prolonged.
Here's what an answer I receive on some other forum from a traditional astrologer when we were making an conversation about the Hyleg and Alcocoden:
Quote:
I also think modern medicine has altered the course of lives in some
cases so we have more freewill maybe than people used to have. My chart
shows my death before a year old, and I did die at 10months old. With
modern medicine, I was revived, lived on a respirator for 3 weeks and am
still here today; in the middle ages, I would not have lived. So
take these rules as a warning not an absolute.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:15 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions.

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...
I will look at the chart later and will answer your questions.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:18 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiousei no Senshi View Post
What happens if it doesn't? Does it lose its position as Hyleg and we move on to examine the next available candidate?

Yes, it must have an aspect. Take the Moiety Orbs Table and look for those kind of aspects, not a modern use of the aspect where for example, they all use 6 orbs for Sextile, 9 orbs for Square and etc.
According to Lilly, every planet has a certain orb. When two planets are in aspect you take the half of the total sum of their orbs and you use that as maximum limit for the aspect.
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:23 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent-it must be in the first house; Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)
Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:43 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

tsmall, I admire you as well! Actually, I think we agree that if people wish to study traditional astrology, there is no harm in exploring its many pathways.

Where I would draw the line, however, is in actually applying length-of-life determinations to give a living person a death prediction. I can give additional reasons, if anyone is interested. I just feel the need to state this because I have seen threads where a fledgling astrologer gives a "friend" a death prediction and it messes up the friend's life. I would hate to see anyone take Omnisphericus's information and apply it to living people, especially where there is no agreement on proper calculations to use.

However, I also think it is fair game to question how reliable these measures really are. If I did wish to apply them, say, to dead celebrities, would it matter if Whitney Houston had been in the jet that crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11? Because hundreds of people would have died with her-- almost simultaneously. Does it matter that average life expectancies today in most of the developed world skew the dates of death well into old age for most people?

Just because astrology's critics ask these questions should not deter people who love astrology from asking them, as well. A valid question is a valid question, regardless of who asks it.

Dr. Farr, I think you have a sensible approach, of suggesting that a practitioner such as yourself might discuss really critical times in a client's life, but doing so in a way that is helpful, rather than potentially harmful.

Omnisphericus, thank you for your thoughtful answers to my questions.

My problem here isn't with future predictions per se. I think we all engage in looking at transits and progressions. Nor is it with traditional astrology. If people wish to study traditional astrology, more power to them.

But I don't think we can shape evidence entirely to fit our theories. The individual you cite did not die at 10 months. This is self-evident. He may have had a near-death experience, but that is not the same as being dead. If calculations used to post-dict Whitney Houston's death should turn out not to work with other deaths, we have to reconsider one's methods.

My personal belief is that death is merely a kind of birth into another dimension. A death chart can often show the nature of the final illness or injury, therefore; but that is as far as I am prepared to take it.

Anyway, I've made my points. See you! Carry on!
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Unread 02-16-2012, 05:48 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Again, my belief (and that of many others) is that death is NOT predicted nor predictable, but CRITICAL YEARS are and can be estimated, using a variety of delineative techniques; there is only one valid reason for such estimations, and that is so that something can be done to facilitate the individual in that critical year. Otherwise it is vain curiousity, which is never a good reason for anything!
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Unread 02-16-2012, 08:34 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

IMO we are all agreed that Omnisphericus thread is intended for the purpose of exploring the idea that the Hyleg and Alcocoden are an indication regarding the Vital Life Force of the native - meaning the potential Vital Life Force in the absence of any form of intervention
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged,

If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have
.
dr. farr has underlined the value of this approach of assessing potential Vital Life Force of the native for simply therapeutic purposes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
However, I do think that many use this kind of thing for indications of potential critical years rather than fatalistic death clock predicting

-I KNOW that most reputable jyotish use "longevity" evaluations for just that purpose (indications of critical years), and in astro-therapeutics these "red flag" indications, derived from such methods, are of value in preventive therapeutics.


For example - and completely different from the technique described in this thread - use of simple symbolic progression (1 year = 1 degree, first mentioned in the 12th century by Ibn Ezra in his "Beginning of Wisdom") can be quite valuable in pointing out potentially critical times: use of the progressed SN to various natal points is one of these valuable methods:

in the case of Whitney Houston, her progressed SN conjuncted her ascending degree (8 Pisces) at her 48th birthday (natal SN @ 20 Capricorn): astro-therapeutically, this would have been a red flag that her 48th year was a definite critical period,

and preventive measures (low stress, much care about drugs and medication, tonification for her heart -which her natal indicated as a potential weak area in her health, etc) would have been prescribed for her by a knowledgeable practitioner;

the fact that classical hyleg/alcohedron analysis (which I myself do not use) also indicated her 48th year as possibly anaretic (as one of 3 such possible critical years using the analysis given in this thread) would have decidedly underscored the critical-ness of the 48th year and the importance of undertaking natural (non-drug) preventive and corrective measures, during that time...
IMO dr. farr has highlighted the importance of these techniques in SUPPORTING the native at critical times during the life

dr. farr thank you for encapsulating the historical rationale highlighting the unambiguous clarity of whole sign houses

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
TSMALL
In whole sign, Sun in same sign as ascendant and above the ascending degree CANNOT be cadent - it must be in the first house;

Liber Hermetis (earlier than the 6th century AD) made a big deal about this, and gave quite different indications for the Sun IN THE FIRST HOUSE, being above the ascending degree (therefore diurnal) vs being below the ascending degree (and therefore being nocturnal)

Only in Equal house and all the quadrant systems, can the diurnal Sun in the same sign as the ascending degree, become "cadent" by being placed (by these methods) in the 12th

...I consider this evidence of the unnatural ramifications which various theoretical house division systems, can produce...(my opinion)
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Unread 02-16-2012, 01:08 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Omnisphericus, I didn't want to turn this into a rmc, but chart attached. It's a good question about Sun in 12th, mainly because I've never understood how the Sun, above the horizon in a day chart, in the same sign as the ASC could be cadent, but that's probably a topic for another thread. I see now that we should have looked at ASC all along, and I must have misunderstood the directions.

waybread, I understand your concerns about predicting death, but I don't think that is what we are trying to learn here. I don't know if you read the thread that inspired this one (linked in the OP), but Omnisphericus and others were quite clear that this method is not about predicting death per se...
tsmall, I've calculated your chart in an Alcabitius house system in my Morinus traditional software. It is a house system which was used in great deal in medieval times, and many of leading trad. astrologers today are using it.
Lets try to see what we'll find here.
tsmall.jpg

Sun is indeed cadent, but Mercury and Jupiter are on the Ascendant. Mercury is within of 5 orbs and has strong influence over the ascendant.
Nor Sun nor Moon can be Hyleg. The first is in 12th the second in 6th.
Your syzygy prior the birth was New Moon, so the chart is Conjunctional.
We look at the Ascendant for potential Hyleg.
Ascendant is at 14 degrees Libra.
Domicil ruler = Venus 5 points
Exaltation = Saturn 4
Triplicity ruler = Saturn 3
Term ruler = Jupiter 2 points
Face ruler = Saturn = 1 point
Saturn takes the greatest dignity in this degree (it is the Almuten of the Ascendant).
In order to be Hyleg it must have an aspect, so lets look at this.
Saturn does not make an aspect. The 150 aspect was not familiar to the medievals.
Next we look at Venus as second with points.
She does not make an aspect either.
Next we look at Jupiter.
Jupiter on the Ascendant!
So Jupiter is the Almuten of the Hyleg Ascendant!
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