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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #1  
Unread 10-04-2011, 03:02 AM
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Profecting charts

I have <another> silly newbie question...when looking at profections, does bringing the profected house to the ascendent change the accidental diginity, by house placement, of the planets? For example, if the year ruler (or any other planet) is in a cadent house natally, but comes to be in a fixed or angular house, does it then change it's ability to act for that year? Also, if the profection changes the sect of a planet, would that have an influence on the chart?

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Unread 10-04-2011, 06:08 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

That is how the profection works. You count around the chart until you find the house of the year you want. You make that the first house. In this new chart the planets in the new angles are strong and effective that year. The planets that are found in cadant houses will be ineffective. If the sect has changed take that into account as well.

The essential dignity stays the same. The classical astrologers considered the so called accidental dignities to be more important because they are horoscopic: That is part of the natal chart. The essental dignities are zodiacal, and used to find the houses ruled by the planets.
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Unread 10-04-2011, 06:17 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

Hi Tamara,
I suggest reading,"Classical Astrology for Modern Living." by J. Lee Lehman.Chapter 14 covers Profections,eg Age 42 is 7th House.

J.
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Unread 10-04-2011, 06:27 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by JerryRR View Post
Hi Tamara,
I suggest reading,"Classical Astrology for Modern Living." by J. Lee Lehman.Chapter 14 covers Profections,eg Age 42 is 7th House. J.
also the original Valens http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
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Unread 10-05-2011, 03:36 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by Culpeper View Post
That is how the profection works. You count around the chart until you find the house of the year you want. You make that the first house. In this new chart the planets in the new angles are strong and effective that year. The planets that are found in cadant houses will be ineffective. If the sect has changed take that into account as well.

The essential dignity stays the same. The classical astrologers considered the so called accidental dignities to be more important because they are horoscopic: That is part of the natal chart. The essental dignities are zodiacal, and used to find the houses ruled by the planets.
Thank you!

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Hi Tamara,
I suggest reading,"Classical Astrology for Modern Living." by J. Lee Lehman.Chapter 14 covers Profections,eg Age 42 is 7th House.

J.
OK, I will look into purchasing this one.

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This one I do have, and am <slowly> making my way through. Unfortunately, I really want to know everything, immediately, and of course, that is not the way astrology, or any other subject, works.
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Unread 10-05-2011, 04:17 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

The place where the count starts, ie the first house, can make a difference: the Egyptian method (which ahs always been the dominant one, and is the one followed by Valens) begins the count at 0 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 0) Paulus of Alexandria differed, and began the count at 1 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 1) I myself have followed the Pauline profection (all of the available authors have chosen to follow the Egyptian method of starting @ 0, including Lehman, Ben Dykes, etc)

In my experience I have found Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method.
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Unread 10-05-2011, 04:33 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The place where the count starts, ie the first house, can make a difference: the Egyptian method (which ahs always been the dominant one, and is the one followed by Valens) begins the count at 0 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 0) Paulus of Alexandria differed, and began the count at 1 (in other words, the year after birth = the 1st house and is counted as 1) I myself have followed the Pauline profection (all of the available authors have chosen to follow the Egyptian method of starting @ 0, including Lehman, Ben Dykes, etc)

In my experience I have found Pauline profection to be the more accurate profection method.
dr. farr, I have Ben Dykes Introductions to Traditional Astrology, but admit that I have not yet gotten to the part on profections. To make sure I understand what you are saying, if the 1st year (according to Pauline profections) means the year of the ASC, would that mean that this year, for me (at 42) profectionally (is that a word? it should be...) would bring 8th, and not 7th to the ASC?
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Unread 10-05-2011, 05:46 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Whereas the difference is that Valens and many now termed Hellenistic Astrologers time profections as follows:

The ascendant is considered as being time of birth so from birth to the cusp of the 2nd house is considered to relate to the first year of life: from cusp of 2nd to cusp of 3rd encompasses the second year of life (ie from age one to age two) and so on around the natal chart returning to the Ascendant for the twelfth year of life
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Unread 10-05-2011, 06:23 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

With Egyptian profection the ascendant (1st natal house) comes back around at ages 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72 and 84 years of age.

In the lesser known Pauline profection the ascendant (1st natal house) comes back around at ages 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73 and 85 years of age.

So, at age 42, by the generally followed Egyptian profection method the ascendant for the 42nd year would be in the natal 7th; however in Pauline profection the ascendant for the 42nd year would fall in the natal 6th house.
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Unread 10-19-2011, 01:59 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Solar Fire enables you to calculate Profections for the actual day of an event. I find these little profections very, very accurate and have started to work with them for timing.

For example, when my son got married the profected true North Node was conjunct his natal Sun, profected Jupiter was conjunct his MC and profected Saturn, ruler of his 7th house, trine his 7th cusp.

Alice
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Unread 10-19-2011, 03:35 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Yes, I find profection to be the most accurate of our predictive tools working from the natal chart (with simple symbolic progression coming in a close second, and the 2 worked together really productive of impressive results); the question is which system of profection to follow-Solar Fire I believe uses the Egyptian method, counting the birth ascending sign as year 0; probably 99% of those using profection follow this method: I have had good results with it too, but have come to prefer the Pauline profection as I have described it in earlier posts.
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Unread 10-21-2011, 12:51 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Yes, I find profection to be the most accurate of our predictive tools working from the natal chart (with simple symbolic progression coming in a close second, and the 2 worked together really productive of impressive results); the question is which system of profection to follow-Solar Fire I believe uses the Egyptian method, counting the birth ascending sign as year 0; probably 99% of those using profection follow this method: I have had good results with it too, but have come to prefer the Pauline profection as I have described it in earlier posts.
Hi dr farr

Do you know of a program that will calculate the Pauline system for daily Profections?

I love to try new techniques, but found the general approach to Profections a little to vague for me - but when I realised Solar Fire would calculate their daily movement and they had exact 'hits' for important events in the life I was sold on them.

They can be so accurate that it can boggle your mind. They even connect into the charts of other members of the family:

For example, when my oldest son's sister was born he had profected Ascendant-South Node exactly conjunct her natal MC; profected Venus conjunct her Descendant; profected Mars conjunct her Neptune (there is a story to this one - she had Neptune in the 8th house and died of more or less drowning during the Darwin Cyclone of 1974, my eldest son has always felt responsible for her death as, during a fight, he told her he wished she was dead a few hours before it happened).

At the birth of his first brother he had Profected Sun conjunct his brother's MC; profected Ascendant square his brother's North Node - and this brother was induced!

At the birth of his 2nd brother he had Profected Sun conjunct his brother's Venus; profected Neptune conjunct his brother's Ascendant; profected Descendant conjunct his brother's Mars and profected Venus square.

All of these contacts were under one degree.

If I have exact times of birth I now use Daily Profections and Daily Age Harmonics for timing more than any other method.

Alice
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Unread 03-22-2012, 04:06 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

I've just come back to this topic now and I wonder about the philosophy behind it? Why does a sign or place take over/represent/have control of major affairs in a life and why a year?

I've just reconstructed the years of my life using both the Egyptian and Pauline profection and I get some correlation with both, but not enough. There are a few significant years where I don't see the bang I should. Is it just a matter of following the ruler of the sign that represents the year, observe the natal position for clues etc.? I'm surely missing something.
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Unread 03-22-2012, 04:25 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice McDermott View Post
Solar Fire enables you to calculate Profections for the actual day of an event. I find these little profections very, very accurate and have started to work with them for timing.

For example, when my son got married the profected true North Node was conjunct his natal Sun, profected Jupiter was conjunct his MC and profected Saturn, ruler of his 7th house, trine his 7th cusp.

Alice
I have Solar Fire version 7.3. Could you tell me where one would find this option of calculating profections?
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Unread 03-22-2012, 04:28 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Yes, I find profection to be the most accurate of our predictive tools working from the natal chart (with simple symbolic progression coming in a close second, and the 2 worked together really productive of impressive results); the question is which system of profection to follow-Solar Fire I believe uses the Egyptian method, counting the birth ascending sign as year 0; probably 99% of those using profection follow this method: I have had good results with it too, but have come to prefer the Pauline profection as I have described it in earlier posts.
Is there significance when the ASC is brought to the current years profection? Also, is there any difference when one is born at the beginning of January, i.e. instead of showing age 36 bringing the ASC to the first house it's shows age 37. I suppose it's based on Pauline or Egyptian method?
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Unread 03-22-2012, 10:05 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
I've just come back to this topic now and I wonder about the philosophy behind it? Why does a sign or place take over/represent/have control of major affairs in a life and why a year?

I've just reconstructed the years of my life using both the Egyptian and Pauline profection and I get some correlation with both, but not enough. There are a few significant years where I don't see the bang I should. Is it just a matter of following the ruler of the sign that represents the year, observe the natal position for clues etc.? I'm surely missing something.
byjove Omnisphericus has a great thread entitled "Profections (Praxis)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
This is the basic technique given by Paulus of Annual Profections of the Ascendant, i.e. profection of the Ascendant from one sign to the next for each year of life. The Ruler of the Sign in which the Ascendant is falling in that particular year is called 'The Lord of the Year".
This technique is quite simple and you do not need to calculate degrees, only signs.
If you are born with Aries rising, on the Solar Return the next year (when you are 1 year old) the Profected Ascendant would be in Taurus and the Lord of the Year would be Venus.

The Ages 0, 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72, 84, 96 and etc., are the 'Profection Return' (to invent a title xD), the Ascendant in those years is the same as it was at the birth, so the Lord of the Year is the same too.


Years 1, 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73, 85, 97 are given to the 2nd sign from the Ascendant.


Here's a chart:

Attachment 27162

The Lord of the Year is having the same function as the Lord of the Year at nativity. It is most significant planet, ruling the place where the Soul (the Sky) and Body (earth) are merging (at the Ascendant).


Here's what Paulus says about the Lord of the year in profections:
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=47191
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Unread 03-22-2012, 11:43 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

Thanks again, I'll get stuck in!
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Unread 03-23-2012, 03:38 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Remember to profect all the chart elements, not only the ascendant, and then correlate the profected positions to the natal ones. Also, just as in SR and progressions and even transits, not every year will be dramatic or a stand-out one; many years will be pretty much just "average", for most people at least, with nothing especially outstanding happening, either way.
Then their are the "big years", dramatic years; these should be seen in whatever predictive method we might be using, such as profection...
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Unread 03-23-2012, 05:09 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

So if I understand this correctly, when the planets and points are profected into different signs, you treat them as if they're in those signs in the natal chart with regards to the power they have that year (this is assuming you use whole signs)?

So if my Sun which is natally in Libra 3rd House was profected all the way around into Virgo 2nd House, the Sun would play only a moderately important part of this year due to being in a succedent house?
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Unread 03-23-2012, 05:21 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Yes that could be part of it; but the Sun profected into Virgo would be delineated as the Sun influence (ie, Sun in Virgo) for that profection year; profected planets relating by conjunction to natal planet positions (like in transits/progressions) are also of prime importance for the profection year. So in your example: Sun porfected into natal Virgo, and say Jupiter is in the natal Virgo: so we would look at (profected) Sun conjunct (sign conjunct like the Hellenists used) natal Jupiter, as operative in that profection year (ie, defacto Sun conjunct Jupiter influence in that profected year)
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Unread 03-23-2012, 05:23 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

So you would delineate a profected chart by comparing it to the natal and looking for aspects (or just conjunctions)? And you would delineate the profected chart as if it were a natal chart for that year? Seeing as to how the Sun would always be in the 3rd House (in the profected chart) you'd only look at the sign its in, right?
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Unread 03-23-2012, 05:33 AM
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Re: Profecting charts

Yes (to all of your questions) that's my understanding of using profection charts-at least that is the way I do it!
I use only profection conjunctions (sign conjunctions included) with the natal planetary positions; also any profection planet longitudinal conjunction with a star.
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Unread 02-17-2013, 02:09 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
With Egyptian profection the ascendant (1st natal house) comes back around at ages 12, 24, 36, 48, 60, 72 and 84 years of age.

In the lesser known Pauline profection the ascendant (1st natal house) comes back around at ages 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73 and 85 years of age.

So, at age 42, by the generally followed Egyptian profection method the ascendant for the 42nd year would be in the natal 7th; however in Pauline profection the ascendant for the 42nd year would fall in the natal 6th house.
So what is the deal with the 1 year offset in the Pauline method? It's like saying life doesn't start until you survive the first year trial period. More seriously, does it discount infancy as creation phase and not a valid growth phase? I think some programming begins after birth (at least lower brain) but the brain is still in physical development up to at least 1.5 years, so there is some over lap. I'm not sure about the particulars. I'm not a human development expert, but the implications are interesting.
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Unread 02-17-2013, 03:15 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by !4C View Post
So what is the deal with the 1 year offset in the Pauline method? It's like saying life doesn't start until you survive the first year trial period. More seriously, does it discount infancy as creation phase and not a valid growth phase? I think some programming begins after birth (at least lower brain) but the brain is still in physical development up to at least 1.5 years, so there is some over lap. I'm not sure about the particulars. I'm not a human development expert, but the implications are interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy Vir Sn Ari Mn Pis Ris View Post
I was also taught to check our PROFECTIONS. That's where each year you graduate a SIGN for your rising so that every 12th year (since we start at ZERO) we repeat our natal rising sign. WHEN you profect to what is typically your 7th house rising then that is your focus that year. Or I would also think that, for example, since I am Pisces rising....after my birthday next Wed I profect to a Virgo rising which is my 7th house.

HOWEVER, with transiting Saturn in Libra squaring my natal Venus in Cancer 17 degrees....where it'll retrograde so I'll get a 3 time pass over.....I am thinking that will null and void my 7th house focus this time.

Drat. ahahahaha.

Again, the RIGHT fella is WORTH the wait!

Here is a PROFECTION WHEEL.


Interesting and relevant historical comment posted also by dr. farr on that same thread - I have highlighted both quoted posts with 'bold' at various junctures in order to add emphasis
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The Greco/Roman astrologers made very extensive use of profections in predictive work; the method deserves much more attention than it has been accorded over the past 100 years; I favor it far more than transits (no offense, please!), and I believe I frequently derive more specific indications from it than from simple symbolic progression or even Solar Returns (of course I often follow the advice of Charles Carter and compare indications from 2 or sometimes all 3 of the methods applied to the subject chart)

The wonderful profection chart above, and Amy's excellent comments, represent the original concepts regarding profection and "how to profect", and these should be followed by all beginners and other interested students.

However, I have been influenced a great deal by Paulus Alexandrianus and Olympiodorus in their slight modification of profection:

except for them,

all ancient astologers applied the profection starting at 0 years of age (exactly as shown on the profection wheel);

thus at age 12 the cycle starts again, then at 24, and so on.

Paulus/Olympiodorus start at the "first year of life", so, in a way, their profection is by a factor of 13 (not of 12 as found in all other authorities**) Thus, in Pauline profection, the cycle begins at "1", then the cycle starts again at 13, then at 26, and so on.

Technically this is INCORRECT (compared with all other historical authorities),
yet this is the method I have come to practice relative to profections, and which has worked extremely well for me
(I am not advocating this Pauline profection to any persons other than advanced practitioners, and to them only for experimental purposes)


There are several examples of Pauline profection which I had posted on skyscript, and an example here on AW are my posts to the thread "Cause of Death" (by AW member Backy) in the Natal Astrology section. Another AW member also made posts to that thread based upon the (historically) "correct" way to do profections (the by 12 method, rather than the Pauline by 13), and it is interesting to compare the differences between the indications derived by each method, as elaborated in hose postings.

(**Paulus-358 AD-also used a "by 13" calculation for dodekatemorion ramifications, rather than the more ancient "by 12" calculation-also known as Egyptian dodekatemorion-followed by virtually all of the other hellenist authorities, from Dorotheus of Sidon on down through Rhetorius)
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Unread 02-17-2013, 04:31 PM
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Re: Profecting charts

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
In the lesser known Pauline profection the ascendant (1st natal house) comes back around at ages 13, 25, 37, 49, 61, 73 and 85 years of age.
So this sequence was an error? It's a period of 13, not an offset? That is what I initially expected. I was really reaching to come up with an explanation for an offset. However I'm the king of creative BS, so mission accomplished.

That leads to the next question, is this difference of period to synchronize with important cycles in the transits? Maybe a more accurate period is not a whole number. What would be the chances that it is a whole number?

Last edited by !4C; 02-17-2013 at 04:47 PM.
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