Relationship Horary - Intermediate Reading - Help Needed

Hey guys,

Would love some help with this horary - I've given my interpretation below but I'm an intermediate horary astrologer at best, and also heavily biased as I am the querent.

Factual Background:

So the quesited is someone I work with who has been my best friend for two years and although neither of us admit it, we've kind of become more than friends. However that has caused some tension (we had a big argument in February caused by his irrational anger) as he likes to keep his head in the sand (natal moon square neptune and mercury) but I want to talk about the relationship and try and figure out what's really going on (Scorpio stellium). His Mars / Pluto conjunction conjuncts my own Venus / Pluto conjunction. His Saturn conjuncts my Mercury and Asc. and my Saturn conjuncts his Venus/Uranus conjuncts. His moon trines my sun.

Horary Reading:

So the question is along the lines of what will happen next / will there be an ending that will make us both happy / will we stay friends / be more than friends, or will this end acrimoniously (we will still need to work together but both of us are thinking of changing jobs). I first cast a chart two days earlier when I was quite angry about things and the moon was in the via combusta. After 2 days I had changed my perspective and recast the chart to obtain the attached.

The first thing I did was check whether the chart was "radical". The planetary hour, by my calculation, is Saturn, which is also the Asc ruler, so I deem this to be radical. Saturn, as my significator is also in the final degree of the 10th house (using the whole sign / house system) and, if I'm reading the table of dignities correctly, has "term" (from 27-30 Scorpio) and the moon, as co-significator, has "face" (10-20 Sagittarius). Therefore my significators are relatively well dignified and the chart should give a stable reading.

Q1 - have I got the above right? I hate those tables and never really figured out how to use them.

Both the moon and Saturn are at the top of the chart, suggesting that my thoughts and emotions on the matter are culminating and maturing. This is a good time for me to obtain perspective. Not sure if there is any career aspect to this - I've been offered a job which would mean we would not longer be colleagues. I also live a continent apart from the quesited. Not sure if the moon conjunct the MC indicates travel but this is imminent (in a sucedent house this would be in 1 week - which is true as I return home at the end of next week).

Q2 - does the moon conjunct the MC have any other meaning? Is it just coincidence that 10 Sagittarius is the same degree as our Venus-Saturn conjunction in synastry? I see this as meaning that I (the moon) will be getting clarity (MC) on this relationship (Venus-Saturn in synastry) if I can get this chart reading right.

Q3 - how about Saturn being on the anaretic degree? Is this another indicator that the querent is reaching a moment of transition (although reluctantly as Saturn is retrograde?) Or is Saturn nearing a moment of transition but will he miss this opportunity because he is retrograde?

Q4 - not sure how the 11th house bears upon the query. "Hopes and wishes"...?

Now let's look at the quesited.

He is primarily symbolised by the sun. The sun is moving a few degrees away from Mars, suggesting that he was previously angry. In a cadent house that would be a few months ago - which is true as he became irrationally angry at me in February). The sun is in the quesited's 12th house. Does this mean that he is feeling confused or has concealed feelings (or even feelings of anger or hatred given that there is a "secret enemies" meaning to the 12th house). My view is that he is his own worst enemy as he is putting his head in the sand and knows he is.

Q5 - Do I read Venus and Jupiter as describing the quesited by virtue of their conjunction to the DC? If so how does that interact with the somber sun placement? He is engaged to someone else - would this suggest that he is happily engaged? I partly feel he is, but then again if he was he wouldn't act out so much with me.

Now putting it altogether, the moon (me) rules over the sun in Cancer, while the sun (him) has dignity over the moon by triplicity. So we "receive" each other (I still find some of these terms confusing). This is good, meaning we there is still a strong affinity. I am in a stronger position than him because I seek clarity and my rulership over him is stronger, while he languishes in his own 12th house. My moon falls in his 5th house which is a good house for a relationship. Saturn is anaretic on his 4th house - don't think there's much to read into that. This means I should take the lead to get us to a situation I want us to be in.

Q6 - Does my moon conjunct his IC? Meaning his feelings for me run quite deeply? Or is that not how horaries work?

Q7 - if Jupiter is a significator of his, being conjunct the DC, does that mean he has dignity over my moon? Similarly as he is a physically active and very fit man and Mars is conjunct the sun, does Mars rule over Saturn? If true that would mean he is in a much stronger position than I am but will be unable to use that power well because the sun is weak and he is his own source of undoing. (And so ultimately the relationship is doomed).

The sun falls in my 6th house - and I definitely see him as a responsibility or liability. He has a way of making me feel guilty (e.g. claiming he had a breakdown while I was away because of his family).

The moon's next aspect is a conjunction to the MC and an opposition to Mercury.

Q8. Having difficulty reading this bit. Also Saturn is void of course as it is anaretic. Is this relevant? Does the opposition to the Mercury signify impending misunderstandings?

The moon has just come out of a quincunx with the Sun, which I guess shows our most recent argument (we haven't spoken since February and last week, when we met for the first time since, he pretended that everything was fine, which annoyed me so much I told him he was basically deceiving himself. He thinks bad things go away if you ignore them).

Q9. Am I supposed to see what the sun aspects next?

I think I'm supposed to look at the ruler of the 4th house for an overview of the "end of the matter". The 4th house, by whole sign, is Taurus. Venus is in the 7th house, conjunct Jupiter. It is ruled by Jupiter by triplicity and by term (if I read the tables correctly, it's rulership of itself by term ends at 19 Leo). This looks overwhelmingly positive - a beneficial relationship will ensue in the end. This will be satisfactory to me (as Jupiter rules my moon) and him (as Jupiter receives the sun by term).

Q10. But what kind of relationship - the 7th can rule any kind. Colleagues? Friends? Enemies? Full-on relationship? And how do we get there?

What if I'm wrong about Venus / Jupiter. What if it means he will proceed with his current engagement instead? Could Venus / Jupiter refer to his fiancee?

I think that's all I can do on my own

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Horary Reading:

So the question is along the lines of what will happen next / will there be an ending that will make us both happy / will we stay friends / be more than friends, or will this end acrimoniously (we will still need to work together but both of us are thinking of changing jobs).

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I don't find happy ending.
But I'll look at the chart again when I have time.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

So the question is along the lines of what will happen next / will there be an ending that will make us both happy / will we stay friends / be more than friends, or will this end acrimoniously (we will still need to work together but both of us are thinking of changing jobs). I first cast a chart two days earlier when I was quite angry about things and the moon was in the via combusta. After 2 days I had changed my perspective and recast the chart to obtain the attached.

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You did some good analysis. Since you describe yourselves as having become more than friends, I would assign him the 7th house.

Here's my take.

I agree with melleoscorp's conclusion based on the following:

• Reception between Sun and Saturn are not supportive of your coming together. The Sun has no reception with Saturn, and Saturn receives Sun adversely, since Sun is in the sign of Saturn's detriment.
• But most importantly to me, the two significators do not aspect each other; rather, they are averse: they do not regard or see each other. This does not point to a coming together.

I also think that Venus on the cusp of his 1st house points to another woman in his life, quite possibly his fiancee.

Sorry with all due respect, don't you think your putting your head in the sand as he as you said is engaged to someone else? He has a fiancé?!

Hi Lilly Lane - I know he is engaged but he is the one that acts odd with me. I am the one trying to set some boundaries - which would include establishing that he not cheat on his fiance. Hence the question of whether we can become friends (and whether we could be happy as just friends).

Hi Ilenek - thanks so much for taking a look - below are my thoughts:

"Reception between Sun and Saturn are not supportive of your coming together. The Sun has no reception with Saturn, and Saturn receives Sun adversely, since Sun is in the sign of Saturn's detriment."

Does the sun's reception over the moon (by triplicity) become secondary to the sun not receiving saturn because the moon is only the secondary significator of the querent? Similarly does the sun being in the sign of Saturn's detriment negate the moon ruling over the sun in Cancer because the moon is only secondary? I was wondering if the moon is the more powerful significator of the querent because it is conjunct the MC.

"But most importantly to me, the two significators do not aspect each other; rather, they are averse: they do not regard or see each other. This does not point to a coming together."

Agreed - we live on different continents. But I was wondering if the moon / sun receiving each other would mean that we could keep in close touch even though living separately - by being good friends? I was also wondering how to read the fact that the sun and moon are coming out of an inconjunct. Or that the sun will eventually trine Saturn. If both planets were in cadent houses I think that wouldn't count. But as Saturn is in the 10th house and the sun is in the 6th house could this point to some equilibrium in several months (days being cardinal, years being cadent)?

As a new thought, I was thinking that the chart could show that we will have difficulty just being friends - as the moon is in the querent's 11th house and mercury is the quesited's 11th house ruler, they are in an applying opposition. But you could just as well argue that Mercury will trine Jupiter, which is the 11th house ruler.

Hi,

Well, in terms of horary you need to ask a direct question and now I'm slightly confused. What do you want to know- do you want to be just friends with him? Or do you want more? Do you want him to not cheat on his to be wife? You are all over the place with this chart. If he cheats on her - he will cheat on you. If he has issues with boundaries - I would lose this friend fast. Sorry, your not going to change him.

I do not see reception between Moon and Sun or the other receptions/aspects that you observe, as having a bearing on the impasse at which you find this relationship, The primary sigs speak pretty clearly to the question that I take to be something like Will we be able to maintain or continue a relationship in any of the forms that you described?

Others may be able to elaborate more but given both the background and the chart, it looks to me like a done deal.

whats the question

"The moon has just come out of a quincunx with the Sun, which I guess shows our most recent argument (we haven't spoken since February and last week, when we met for the first time since, he pretended that everything was fine, which annoyed me so much I told him he was basically deceiving himself. He thinks bad things go away if you ignore them)."

Just to point out,this is not a sign that he is deceiving you or himself. This I am pointing out is because when someone is engaged and does not talk to you since February is probably because they are committed to someone else even if he had a thing with you- it's over. I am sorry I don't understand with or without a question. You did a wonderful job sorting out the chart!
I hope my words are not too sharp- but maybe ask a direct question so we can get to the point. Maybe ask will he leave his fiancé for me?

Thanks both - Ilenek, you are right, I think the question is along the lines of "Will we be able to maintain or continue a relationship in any of the forms that I described?". I can see that with Saturn the answer would be negative but with the moon it is more positive. In horary charts how do you determine which one holds sway - I am relatively new to horary interpretation.

Lilly Lane - You're right that I can't change him and maybe he stopped talking to me because he wanted to focus on his fiance. But he keeps coming back to me with all sorts of inconsistent messages, mostly pretending that everything is fine. I want us to either (i) agree not to be friends (ii) agree to be friends with clear boundaries (iii) agree to be more than friends. Obviously (iii) is very very unlikely. But him pretending that he doesn't hit on me and that everything is fine is a red line for me because until he acknowledges that we have an issue we can't pick a solution. I think you're wondering why we don't just pick option (i) - this is the route I took - I told him we could go no longer be friends. But his response is to tell me he is having a nervous breakdown. And I can't just ignore that (well at least not without asking an horary question). Too many Saturn contacts I guess. I think we feel stuck with each other.

So my real question is which of the three options above will happen and whether we will both be happy with that option.

Hi,

I understand your frustration with this topic. It appears your chart indicates the outcome as negative. As some others here have mentioned that this chart is not indicative of the two of you coming together. Look, if you really have strong feelings for this man. I suggest talk to him. You mentioned that you guys live at a distance. Do you know why he says he is having a nervous breakdown? Getting married is a big transition and can make many people overwhelmed. Maybe his significator in your 12th could mean his life is hidden from you. His marriage is coming up.Personally, unless this other woman proposed to him, he has made a proposal to her and asked this woman to be his partner. If you have talked to him and he acts like nothing is going on between you two- maybe you should believe it. Just don't project your feelings on to him- he is a big boy, he can handle this. If you need to tell him something I suggest you do so. It is best to clear the air. Wish you the best!

The_Sundance_Kid said:

The first thing I did was check whether the chart was "radical". The planetary hour, by my calculation, is Saturn, which is also the Asc ruler, so I deem this to be radical. Saturn, as my significator is also in the final degree of the 10th house (using the whole sign / house system) and, if I'm reading the table of dignities correctly, has "term" (from 27-30 Scorpio) and the moon, as co-significator, has "face" (10-20 Sagittarius). Therefore my significators are relatively well dignified and the chart should give a stable reading.

Q1 - have I got the above right? I hate those tables and never really figured out how to use them.

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No. Moon is hour ruler so according to Boantti and Lilly your chart is not radical. Here's why.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

I first cast a chart two days earlier when I was quite angry about things and the moon was in the via combusta. After 2 days I had changed my perspective and recast the chart to obtain the attached.

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Yes, you were angry and frustrated and not thinking clearly and that is exactly what Moon or ASC via combust signifies. Not that the chart can't be judged or that you should cast another chart for the same question two days later. If there were one thing I could beg people to do it would be to stop casting multiple charts for the same question/situation. You don't need them and all they do is muddy up the reading. You should post the first chart.

tikana said:

whats the question

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The question is where is this relationship going and why.

LillyLane said:

but maybe ask a direct question so we can get to the point. Maybe ask will he leave his fiancé for me?

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She did ask a question, and it does not have to be a yes/no question in order to be able to answer it. And as I have already said, casting multiple charts for the same situation is not going to give a clear answer.

Hi Tsmall - thanks for your insight. The truth is I cast the chart on the Friday when feeling angry, but never actually looked at it, and, during the next two days, changed my mind about what to do. Once I had changed my mind I looked at the old chart, realised the moon was in the via combusta, thought that this meant the chart was not readable (and thought the universe was telling me to recast the chart as I had changed my mind), recast the chart and posted the new chart into this thread.

Attached is the old chart. So is this the chart we should look at (ignoring the newer chart which, based on your advice, I shouldn't have cast?) I haven't had the time to look at this in as much detail as I'm currently travelling. I will be back in the UK this weekend which will be my last chance to get in touch with him for the time being.

More details

I should give some more facts to make what's happening clear. He is my best friend. I am a man. He hit on me twice, even though he is in a relationship with a woman. He tried to kiss me. The more he does this, the more I develop feelings for him. But I would never encourage him to cheat on his girlfriend. In fact I've actively discouraged it - to the level of us arguing about it (albeit in a theoretical way). All I've ever wanted was for him to think about what it is that he really wants and tell me directly - and for us to agree some boundaries. I know a lot about him that nobody else does. I moved to another continent. I encouraged him to propose to his girlfriend. I lent him the money to buy the ring. I visited him, told him I was in a new relationship with someone else and he still hit on me. A few months later I told him his proposed wedding date clashed with another wedding I have to go to as I am the best man and that we would have to see how things panned out in the next few months. He flips and shuts me out and tells me I am a terrible person because I can't accept that he is with someone else. I try and make up but he ignores me. I decide to move on. Two weeks ago he finds out I am in the UK for a period of time (I didn't bother telling him) and he pretends that nothing has happened and that we are best friends again. He sends me a separate message that he wants to apologise, but he never actually does it. He tells me he has had a nervous breakdown over his family. I tell him we should not be friends because it should not be so complicated and I can't just pretend that certain things have not happened. I want a clean slate and I also want an apology. This is when I cast the chart to see what will happen to our relationship and what I should do next. At the time I thought it best to not contact him ever again. But then I decided that I am the stronger person, that, on some level he is reaching out to me but in his own natal Moon square Neptune way can't approach the issue directly (he bought me a book about selfless love (The boy and the apply tree...WTF?????) and, in his own words "if you ignore a problem it generally goes away"). So I feel like I shouldn't reject him but should try and work through this. I don't want to regret not trying - he is still (or was) my best friend after all. Which is when I posted this thread. I also feel that I deserve better, but I don't want to be selfish. I also still have feelings for him, so no matter what he does, I always worry about him (I have Venus natally in my 12th house )

Chart Reading

The key thing I see in the via combusta chart is that I am angry and highly volatile. This makes sense given the fact pattern. I had assumed and prepared for us not being friends and had not contacted him - so him finding me in order to pretend that we are still best friends really threw me, as did his statement that he had had a nervous breakdown since arguing with me and I am the only one that knows about it. I am a heavily Scorpio person and I admit, somewhat reluctantly, that these feelings run deep and I don't appreciate him stirring them the way he does. The cynical me thinks he does it on purpose to mess with my head. The charitable me sees it as a cry for help.

Mercury is dignified and is the most elevated planet in the chart, widely conjunct the MC. This should put me in a strong position. I am starting to see how he manipulates me (e.g. he is trying to make me feel guilty) and am beginning to become more objective over things.

His signifier is in his 6th house conjunct Venus. This suggests he is in a relationship which he is in out of habit or a sense of duty. But Jupiter and Venus are convivial planets and both dignified by term so I assume there is some enjoyment there. He has never had a faithful relationship with anyone except his current fiancee but, given the above, I don't think he is emotionally faithful to her, and most of our work colleagues think he has been unfaithful. I have no idea what the quesited's ruler in my 12th means. I think it means he has a relationship (conjunction to Venus) which he hides from me. Which would make sense, given his engagement, and the way he always keeps me and his fiancee separate, even though we both have tried to make friends with each other. Venus could represent other things though - his sexuality for one thing. Venus rules his 8th house. It could also represent the debt he owes me for the engagement ring (my 2nd house, his 8th house). I know we're not supposed to look at modern planets, but Neptune on the DC and Chiron in the 7th suggest that he is thoroughly confused and in the mood for healing. Jupiter in the 12th house suggests he could be my undoing or my secret enemy.

Mercury is in an applying sextile to Jupiter but hits Venus first. Does this constitute "collection" where Venus collects the light of Mercury and transfers it to Jupiter? If so, does this mean his fiancee may assist in rebuilding the friendship? Mercury is in his 4th house, meaning I hit him in a sensitive area, which is true as I seem to be the only person who is pushing him to explore what he is really feeling about almost everything.

What a messy situation

Venus, another woman, likely his finance, stands between you/Merc and him/Jupiter as you apply to an aspect to her. And even though in the end, she moves from between you, and you/Merc actually perfect with him/Jupiter before you perfect with Venus, she joins him before you do. Reception from him/Jupiter to you/Mercury is averse. He and the other woman are in your 12th, kept hidden from you.

I see Mercury's essential dignity and accidental dignities as an indicator of how strongly involved you are in this matter, but not necessarily a strength in your position. I really see your having been drawn into a matter between him/Jup and her/Venus, where you do not belong. By that, I mean it is not in your best interest to be involved in matters that are cloaked and hidden/12th house from you.

You as Moon are not in a good place, in extremis, in your fall, and Moon's next aspect, as to the unfolding of the question, is an applying to a square to Venus, so not encouraging.

This seems like a complicated matter that you have been drawn into unnecessarily, but for him, and without much benefit to you. I am sorry for your upset.

Hi Ilenek - just curious why reception from him / Jupiter to me / Mercury is averse? I think that's the one bit about your interpretation I'm not clear on. Everything else seems spot on.

One more query - I was just wondering what the timing implication is for the application. Does a combination of cadent and cardinal houses create a timeframe of say a month?

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Hi Ilenek - just curious why reception from him / Jupiter to me / Mercury is averse? I think that's the one bit about your interpretation I'm not clear on. Everything else seems spot on.

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In traditional astrology, Jupiter is dignified in the sign of Sag and Jupiter is in detriment in the sign of Gemini. So in this instance, when Jup sees Gemini n another planet, like Mercury in Gemini, this indicates a negative or averse reception from Jupiter to Mercury.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

One more query - I was just wondering what the timing implication is for the application. Does a combination of cadent and cardinal houses create a timeframe of say a month?

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Timing is not my forte, and was not raised in your original question, so I would yield this followup query to other more skilled members.

I almost forgot about this.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Chart Reading

The key thing I see in the via combusta chart is that I am angry and highly volatile.

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I would add scared (Moon in her depression) confused (Moon via combust) frazzled and not thinking clearly.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

This makes sense given the fact pattern. I had assumed and prepared for us not being friends and had not contacted him - so him finding me in order to pretend that we are still best friends really threw me, as did his statement that he had had a nervous breakdown since arguing with me and I am the only one that knows about it. I am a heavily Scorpio person and I admit, somewhat reluctantly, that these feelings run deep and I don't appreciate him stirring them the way he does. The cynical me thinks he does it on purpose to mess with my head. The charitable me sees it as a cry for help.

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This is the part where you take a look at Jupiter's condition to be able to understand Jupiter's state of mind/being.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Mercury is dignified and is the most elevated planet in the chart, widely conjunct the MC. This should put me in a strong position. I am starting to see how he manipulates me (e.g. he is trying to make me feel guilty) and am beginning to become more objective over things.

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Good. Keep being objective, because if you cast your own charts you have to be objective to accurately read them...which Moon via combust sort of says you aren't able to do right now. Or right then, at any rate.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

I have no idea what the quesited's ruler in my 12th means.

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Yes you do. The 12th is hidden, yes, but it is the house of the bad daemon, or bad spirit. Modern astrology has it right when they say it is the house of self-undoing.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

I know we're not supposed to look at modern planets, but Neptune on the DC and Chiron in the 7th suggest that he is thoroughly confused and in the mood for healing.

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I doubt it. Look at Jupiter. He is peregrine, in hayz, oriental...Jupiter is exactly what he has shown himself to be, and from your 12th is bad news for you.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Jupiter in the 12th house suggests he could be my undoing or my secret enemy.

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Taps nose. I doubt secret enemy. Just someone who can't help but be who he is, in this case not a great someone for you.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

Mercury is in an applying sextile to Jupiter but hits Venus first. Does this constitute "collection" where Venus collects the light of Mercury and transfers it to Jupiter?

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No. Collection happens when two lighter planets who are not in aspect with each other both apply to a heavier planet. In this case, what you have is prohibition. Mercury (you) is applying to a sextile (intimate aspect of the nature of Venus) but Venus gets in the way of perfection. At the beginning of this thread, and in your explanation, you said that there were indications of a romantic relationship between the two of you. Venus gets in the way.

The_Sundance_Kid said:

If so, does this mean his fiancee may assist in rebuilding the friendship?

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No. His fiancee is probably going to be in for a nasty surprise if she ever finds out about his true nature. Though the possibility exists that you will be the one to tell her, since Mercury gets to Venus before Venus gets to Jupiter...

The_Sundance_Kid said:

What a messy situation

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Yes, it is. Jupiter is in Mercury's terms, what the ancients called "bounds" and is therefore bound by you, or tied to you in the flesh. Of all Jupiter's dispositors (remember, Jupiter is peregrine) Mercury is the only one in aspect with him. Jupiter is in the domicile and tripicity of the Sun, who is in aversion to him, and the face of Mars, also averse. But in the terms of Mercury, who is the only planet receiving him currently. Reception requires an aspect. The problem is that while you receive him by terms, he receives you from his own detriment. Meaning that he is perfectly willing to use you for his own ends and then percieve that you harm or injure him in some way and react accordingly. And you will let him.

We could drag this one chart on for weeks, but the best advice is to walk away. Sometimes we love people who are not good for us, and who can never love us back. And that's ok. But we don't have to let them walk all over us at the same time.