Astrologers' Community  

Go Back   Astrologers' Community > General Astrology > Natal Astrology

Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #276  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:27 AM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,550
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
I'm wondering if it possible to say anything about a native just with aspects without houses and signs? May be we can do away with signs but houses I think are needed. For world events we do not need anything but aspects.
I think this is what Unique Astrology does. There was also a poster by the name Krewster who read a natal chart purely on the tight orbs of aspectual patterns, and was a notable user of the non-ptolemaic aspects. Purely "keplarian" astrologer.

Check out "magi astrology", which began publicizing its findings in books spanning between 1995-1999.

__________________
Epoche
Reply With Quote
  #277  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:31 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,661
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
I completely agree astrology accepts that astronomical bodies affect or influence or cause events on earth and individual lives. You are right about it. Finally one thing we agree on.

I'm wondering if it possible to say anything about a native just with aspects without houses and signs? May be we can do away with signs but houses I think are needed. For world events we do not need anything but aspects.
This one skeptic (I forget his name) wrote an article saying that he set out to debunk astrology, but ended up accepting Aspects-only for personality-types and professional abilities. Personally, I rely most heavily on Signs and rulerships in the context of Houses and Aspects.
If you can do without Signs, it helps end the argument between tropical and sidereal.
Reply With Quote
  #278  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:32 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
I think this is what Unique Astrology does. There was also a poster by the name Krewster who read a natal chart purely on the tight orbs of aspectual patterns, and was a notable user of the non-ptolemaic aspects. Purely "keplarian" astrologer.

Check out "magi astrology", which began publicizing its findings in books spanning between 1995-1999.
Thanks I will surely look into this.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #279  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:43 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
This one skeptic (I forget his name) wrote an article saying that he set out to debunk astrology, but ended up accepting Aspects-only for personality-types and professional abilities. Personally, I rely most heavily on Signs and rulerships in the context of Houses and Aspects.
If you can do without Signs, it helps end the argument between tropical and sidereal.
I think signs are important like you rightly said for rulerships and I find them to be nuansces in astrology. I think you can do away with them at least from traditional astrology perspective.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #280  
Unread 07-26-2019, 08:20 AM
ardentika's Avatar
ardentika ardentika is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
No body is denying that but I already said it.

Music of the spheres implies the harmony and sacred geometrical aspects of spheres not literal music and sound.

You took the discussion from actual genres of music which I can perceive with my ears to harmony of the universe which was expounded by Pythagoras through numbers and sacred geometry and you seem to be calling both the same. One is audible one is a concept which was seen by ancients.

Modern astrologers should not take everything so superficially but should do some thorough research at least for themselves to be considered better astrologers.
Actually we are taking it much deeper,it's just you can't see it. The universe IS music. Everything is sound and vibration and frequency from a scientific point if view. Astrology isn't much different.

Idk why you sound like you hate so much modern astrologers xD
Reply With Quote
  #281  
Unread 07-26-2019, 08:26 AM
ardentika's Avatar
ardentika ardentika is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,044
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Also many astrologers debunk dignities. Even vedic astrologers. Some actually noticed that debilitated planets work much harder to achieve something and end up getting it, whereas exhalted planets might get lazy and never achieve anything at all.

Why sun is debilitated in Libra? Nations believed from hundreds of years ago that we are all one, extension of God or whatever the belief/religion was. Libra sun is debilitated cos it has no ego expression and is a blank canvas of projection. How is that considered a debilitation? It's just a matter of perspective really.

I don't know why this topic ended up again to be an argument trad vs modernist. It's not what the original topic was about.
Reply With Quote
  #282  
Unread 07-26-2019, 02:17 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,101
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post


I don't know why this topic ended up again to be an argument trad vs modernist.

It's not what the original topic was about.

Quite

and on topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post

I completely agree
astrology accepts that astronomical bodies affect or influence
or cause events on earth and individual lives.
You are right about it. Finally one thing we agree on.
clearly free will is debunked then
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
lostinstars (07-26-2019)
  #283  
Unread 07-26-2019, 02:41 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Idk why you sound like you hate so much modern astrologers xD
I don't hate it, I just hope modern astrologers realise the limitations of pyschology and psychoanalysis and don't hold them in such high esteem and use them in consultation or reading. Then world will be a better place.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-26-2019 at 02:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-26-2019)
  #284  
Unread 07-26-2019, 02:48 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
Also many astrologers debunk dignities. Even vedic astrologers. Some actually noticed that debilitated planets work much harder to achieve something and end up getting it, whereas exhalted planets might get lazy and never achieve anything at all.
Yes I agree with you on this, must be my Lady planet on Friday, agreeing with everyone . Before I started getting serious with Traditional astrology, I was interested in Vedic astrology after disillusioned by modern astrology.

Apparently at least one debiliated planet in a chart has been noticed in lots of millionaires and if you want just one let that be Venus because debilitated Venus apparenly gives wealth at some point and also a very good looking spouse but in many cases more than one legal spouse with frills like secret love affairs and cheating.

I can't comment that it is true because I didn't do any research there could be some other factor at play or it might be really true.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-26-2019)
  #285  
Unread 07-26-2019, 02:56 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars

I completely agree
astrology accepts that astronomical bodies affect or influence
or cause events on earth and individual lives.
You are right about it. Finally one thing we agree on.


clearly free will is debunked then
If only it were so easy , we would not be arguing for so long. Fate is providence while free will is how much coffee you drank today?
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-26-2019)
  #286  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:02 PM
ardentika's Avatar
ardentika ardentika is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 1,044
Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
I don't hate it, I just hope modern astrologers realise the limitations of pyschology and psychoanalysis and don't hold them in such high esteem and use them in consultation or reading. Then world will be a better place.
You do realize I can say the same thing right? I hope traditional astrologers realize.their own limitations and how they project them on clients. The world would be a better place.

You do realize it's insanely stupid right? Thinking that someone is right or wrong?
Reply With Quote
  #287  
Unread 07-26-2019, 04:41 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardentika View Post
You do realize I can say the same thing right? I hope traditional astrologers realize.their own limitations and how they project them on clients. The world would be a better place.

You do realize it's insanely stupid right? Thinking that someone is right or wrong?
I didn't mean to be insulting in any way I genuinely meant that modern astrologers could do more to benefit their clients if they downplay psyschology and psychoanalysis. Because I believe in astrology and most people know only modern astrology so I made that statement.

It may come off as rude, my apologies.

There is reasoning behind my statement. There is an explosion of modern astrology I'm sure everyone agrees to that and these days everyone setups a YouTube channel and endlessly talk about placements, behaviour of natives, physical features, archetypes etc., Someone may think western astrology is all that and this person is an expert so let me consult him or her. That person may come out disappointed and other modern astrologers may be quick to judge saying that astrologer did not know what s/he was doing. But the astrologer may be sincere and genuine and doing his/her best to help.

So, may be modern astrologers need to do more to change the perception that it is not only psychology but much more if they really believe that. May be the leading authors should do their part.


P.S. You cannot change the perception of traditional astrologers
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-26-2019 at 04:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-26-2019)
  #288  
Unread 07-26-2019, 06:29 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 880
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
The article does not say some astrologer told him to marry that particular woman because it is good for him or his business. You took it out of context, if I were to get hold of his natal chart somehow and show you the high possibility of getting imprisoned, what would be your answer?

I said it twice already in the earlier posts you don't have to surrender to your fate but make a choice, but don't be disappointed if things don't turn out the way you wanted.


edit: in a linked article it says so that astrologer asked him to marry this woman. But this does not hold any relevance to our argument because if a traditional astrologer says to me you are likely to become a murderer then I will do my best to avoid it as I know it is not an ethical or humane thing to do. But there could be a fool who may act out.

For example in Vedic astrology there are some aspects which get activated apparently when a native's maternal uncle dies. If an astrologer were to tell a client same thing s/he would wonder when my uncle will die so I can get all the money.

That is why ethics are very important on what you need to tell the client as much as where you should stop fooling the client?

I am not sure on where you are getting these ethical concerns you speak of, which in fact only David, ardentika, and others have spoken in favor of in this thread. Do they come from within traditional astrology? From where do they come? Are you sure that isn't imposing the knowledge given by disciplines such as ethics, law, philosophy, psychology, on the practice of traditional astrology? Sure sounds like it to me. Isn't this "other knowledge" interfering with fate?

If your chart says you should be a murderer or a fascist world leader - wouldn't it be interfering with your destiny to say no, I don't think those things are ethical or humane?

Take a bunch of people who have been exposed to traditional astrology through professional readings or through study and are now turned off to it. Ask them why they have been turned off. I would guess the majority of responses can be divided into two categories: (1) traditional astrology did NOT have any explanation for clear successes, failures, experiences of the person, and had enough wrong explanations, or (2) the traditional astrologer seemed naive to the world or their world. But you cannot talk back to them about these things. Instead they begin steadily insulting your chart as if repeating something enough times will suddenly make their error correct. This is literally trying to impose fate on someone, like a curse.

Your original question is comparing fate and free will in traditional and modern astrology. I am not sure you have spent much time discussing the nuance of this. As I first mentioned in your original post, traditional astrology has other tools besides natal chart analysis, such as election and horary, which could "interfere" with the operation of fatal mechanics in a nativity, so I don't think you get the full picture from a natal. Magi astrology also does relational astrology.

I think many of us have stayed on this thread hoping for a juicy exploration of the original topic, but as ardentika pointed out it is mostly devolved into hating on some nebulous concept of psychology and modern astrology.

Last edited by passiflora; 07-26-2019 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #289  
Unread 07-26-2019, 08:58 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Your original question is comparing fate and free will in traditional and modern astrology. I am not sure you have spent much time discussing the nuance of this. As I first mentioned in your original post, traditional astrology has other tools besides natal chart analysis, such as election and horary, which could "interfere" with the operation of fatal mechanics in a nativity, so I don't think you get the full picture from a natal. Magi astrology also does relational astrology.

I think many of us have stayed on this thread hoping for a juicy exploration of the original topic, but as ardentika pointed out it is mostly devolved into hating on some nebulous concept of psychology and modern astrology.
The thread got derailed starting with the third page and I hold everyone responsible including myself as these things are common when arguing or debating online but I will accept that I didn't look at your comment properly, my mistake.

Here is my explanation on why I don't think horary or electional astrology would interfere with a native's fate. I would like to explain with an example.

Let's say someone has to drive down to another place and it's a 10 hour drive. He asks the astrologer "Will I meet with an accident?", and the astrologer says "Yes", he wants to be very sure will it happen in the next 10 hours, so he gets specific "Will I meet with an accident in my next 10 hour drive?", the astrologer "Yes", still not happy, wants to be super accurate, "Will I meet with an accident where I get physically hurt in the next 10 hours?, the astrologer says "Yes", still being a control freak and a paranoid wreck, he gets even more specific "Will I meet with an accident in the next 10 hours where I get physically hurt and lose my limb or bleed?", the astrologer looks confused and says "No".

So this guy drives carefully for five hours and then stops the car to stretch out a little by the road. Suddenly he sees a big truck coming towards him and he jumps to save himself and gets scratched. He tried to control his fate but it did happen, you can't say that he didn't meet with an accident.

You could say that now that the person knew he would be meeting with an accident he should have asked slightly different question to consider all possible cases like "Will I get hurt or will my car just get hit"?. Regardless the answer it is a totally different question for another moment. You could say moon does not travel so fast so it makes sense to ask sequential questions for this trip to control his fate.

But moon covers little over a degree in 2 hours and I don't know how specific one has to pose a question in a way to have the same outcome consistently to know with high accuracy for an event that you want to validate several decades later.

Horary has a limit of time in terms of duration, a "yes" could change to "no" later (need not always be separated by long duration). Only a skeptic would cast a chart twice or someone who does not believe in the power of horary astrology. By limit I don't mean a limitation of horary but if the native perceives things have not changed because s/he is seeing the evidence all around but still hopes to visit the astrologer for validation it will be ineffective.

Now in electional astrolgy, you are finding an asupicious time for something to unfold over time and be stable for long, like starting a business. In India they use for weddings but we see lots of divorces . I don't think you can pose a question like will I become a murderer later in my life through electional astrology.

Unless you want me to comment on your other points I will not, to keep the thread stick to the topic.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.

Last edited by lostinstars; 07-26-2019 at 09:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-26-2019)
  #290  
Unread 07-26-2019, 10:44 PM
passiflora's Avatar
passiflora passiflora is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 880
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
The thread got derailed starting with the third page and I hold everyone responsible including myself as these things are common when arguing or debating online but I will accept that I didn't look at your comment properly, my mistake.

Here is my explanation on why I don't think horary or electional astrology would interfere with a native's fate. I would like to explain with an example.

Let's say someone has to drive down to another place and it's a 10 hour drive. He asks the astrologer "Will I meet with an accident?", and the astrologer says "Yes", he wants to be very sure will it happen in the next 10 hours, so he gets specific "Will I meet with an accident in my next 10 hour drive?", the astrologer "Yes", still not happy, wants to be super accurate, "Will I meet with an accident where I get physically hurt in the next 10 hours?, the astrologer says "Yes", still being a control freak and a paranoid wreck, he gets even more specific "Will I meet with an accident in the next 10 hours where I get physically hurt and lose my limb or bleed?", the astrologer looks confused and says "No".

So this guy drives carefully for five hours and then stops the car to stretch out a little by the road. Suddenly he sees a big truck coming towards him and he jumps to save himself and gets scratched. He tried to control his fate but it did happen, you can't say that he didn't meet with an accident.

You could say that now that the person knew he would be meeting with an accident he should have asked slightly different question to consider all possible cases like "Will I get hurt or will my car just get hit"?. Regardless the answer it is a totally different question for another moment. You could say moon does not travel so fast so it makes sense to ask sequential questions for this trip to control his fate.

But moon covers little over a degree in 2 hours and I don't know how specific one has to pose a question in a way to have the same outcome consistently to know with high accuracy for an event that you want to validate several decades later.

Horary has a limit of time in terms of duration, a "yes" could change to "no" later (need not always be separated by long duration). Only a skeptic would cast a chart twice or someone who does not believe in the power of horary astrology. By limit I don't mean a limitation of horary but if the native perceives things have not changed because s/he is seeing the evidence all around but still hopes to visit the astrologer for validation it will be ineffective.

Now in electional astrolgy, you are finding an asupicious time for something to unfold over time and be stable for long, like starting a business. In India they use for weddings but we see lots of divorces . I don't think you can pose a question like will I become a murderer later in my life through electional astrology.

Unless you want me to comment on your other points I will not, to keep the thread stick to the topic.
Hi. Thanks for the response-ability

Yes, I think all the points are relevant to the topic.

Not the particular horary example you've given, as I find it a bit odd. If I, a control freak, ask that horary question - I am not taking that drive!
The other topics in my post concern the meaning of fate and free will. If your destiny is written in the stars in Greek and you don't know Greek, then you need a Greek speaker to interpret it for you. This is how traditional astrology functioned for the majority of time it has been used. As David pointed out, it is the specialized knowledge of an authority figure. That means in order for most people to submit to fate they had to submit to authority.
That is where the question of ethics also comes in. If the authority tells you that you're a murderer, a wicked person - I mean - in a traditional society, what are you to do? Who are you to disagree?

I saw a story about the founding of Constantinople. It was elected in not the perfect way, but a good enough way to extend the life of the empire. It also was smartly elected in such a way that the astrologers were ensconced in political power. Ha!

https://science-astrology.blogspot.c...horoscope.html

Now why wouldn't those who possess a specialized, priestly authoritative knowledge insist to others that they alone hold that knowledge? And that all should submit to them?

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Heaven will direct it.

Why do you think so many marriages elected by astrologers fail, just by the way?
Reply With Quote
  #291  
Unread 07-27-2019, 03:01 AM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by passiflora View Post
Hi. Thanks for the response-ability

Yes, I think all the points are relevant to the topic.

Not the particular horary example you've given, as I find it a bit odd. If I, a control freak, ask that horary question - I am not taking that drive!
The other topics in my post concern the meaning of fate and free will. If your destiny is written in the stars in Greek and you don't know Greek, then you need a Greek speaker to interpret it for you. This is how traditional astrology functioned for the majority of time it has been used. As David pointed out, it is the specialized knowledge of an authority figure. That means in order for most people to submit to fate they had to submit to authority.
That is where the question of ethics also comes in. If the authority tells you that you're a murderer, a wicked person - I mean - in a traditional society, what are you to do? Who are you to disagree?

I saw a story about the founding of Constantinople. It was elected in not the perfect way, but a good enough way to extend the life of the empire. It also was smartly elected in such a way that the astrologers were ensconced in political power. Ha!

https://science-astrology.blogspot.c...horoscope.html

Now why wouldn't those who possess a specialized, priestly authoritative knowledge insist to others that they alone hold that knowledge? And that all should submit to them?

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Heaven will direct it.

Why do you think so many marriages elected by astrologers fail, just by the way?

You are welcome.

The example may sound bit farfetched but the intention was to show that you cannot get very specific in horary because it does not answer how so you will not have enough information whether to go on the drive or not. But if you were to not to go on the 10 hour drive, and instead if you meet with some minor accident on your way back home or any form of accident like almost hitting another car or something like that and sprain your back in shock or hot coffee getting spilled all over because you suddenly applied brakes, I would call these accidents that may happen in the next 10 hours. As you cannot the how part from horary it is up to you whether you want to call it fate or just coincidence or even meaningless.

Dictionary definitions could mean the same but fate is different from destiny. Fate is providence, the spiritual power which is the source of cosmos has a plan for all of us and we will not deviate from it. I strongly believe so.

Destiny on the other hand is how your actions mostly significant and consciously willed choices will contribute to what you would become at the end of your life. And fate is what drives you to your destiny and corrects the course at every step if you want to have tug of war with fate.

That is why I think fate can be seen in a natal's chart though it may sound silly not like everything clearly laid out but some hints about a person's destiny. Astrologers may have not purused thinking as no one can predict what actions an individual takes, so there is no way to predict someone's destiny.

Ethics should be definitely considered and it is up to an astrologer on how to tell something that may prove to be dangerous to a client. That is why astrologers are supposed to ask several questions not only to validate their findings but also to understand the mental state of a client. If some client constantly wants to have an appointment even for trivial things then if you are a smart and responsible astrologer you will not reveal dangerous things to such a person. I think it comes with experience I guess.

Ancient astrologers would not have told anyone you are a murderer or a wicked person, even if they did adding additional information that is not seen from the chart, the person would have had a choice, we all have a choice.

The example of Constantinople is a good one for electional astrology which is meant for things to last for a long time but not forever. Whatever may have been the reason didn't Constantinople play a key role in European history?

Quote:
Now why wouldn't those who possess a specialized, priestly authoritative knowledge insist to others that they alone hold that knowledge? And that all should submit to them?
This is digressing from the topic but I think you already know the answer.

Probably the quality of astrologers is so bad or people do not care about the most opportune moment to get married by not believing in them but any good time is fine for getting married.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lostinstars For This Useful Post:
JUPITERASC (07-27-2019)
  #292  
Unread 07-27-2019, 07:07 AM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,661
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Synastry is an interesting topic. For example, even a Mod might say what looks like a particularly bad match is "fated to fail".

Here's an anecdotal example of a REALLY incompetent "astrologer":
I was doing free readings at a small "wellness store" (supplements, homeopathy, herbal remedies, etc.). One of the employees said she didn't "believe" in astrology , because an "astrologer" had advised her not to marry her husband. She ignored the advice, the marriage is going great, two healthy children, and a wonderful relationship. I asked her what the bad advice was based on, and it was SOLELY on the fact that both she and her husband have Sun in Scorpio!
And people wonder why astrology isn't taken seriously!
Reply With Quote
  #293  
Unread 07-27-2019, 12:08 PM
JUPITERASC's Avatar
JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 51,101
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostinstars View Post
You are welcome.

The example may sound bit farfetched but the intention was to show that you cannot get very specific in horary because it does not answer how so you will not have enough information whether to go on the drive or not. But if you were to not to go on the 10 hour drive, and instead if you meet with some minor accident on your way back home or any form of accident like almost hitting another car or something like that and sprain your back in shock or hot coffee getting spilled all over because you suddenly applied brakes, I would call these accidents that may happen in the next 10 hours. As you cannot the how part from horary it is up to you whether you want to call it fate or just coincidence or even meaningless.

Dictionary definitions could mean the same but fate is different from destiny. Fate is providence, the spiritual power which is the source of cosmos has a plan for all of us and we will not deviate from it. I strongly believe so.

Destiny on the other hand is how your actions mostly significant and consciously willed choices will contribute to what you would become at the end of your life. And fate is what drives you to your destiny and corrects the course at every step if you want to have tug of war with fate.

That is why I think fate can be seen in a natal's chart though it may sound silly not like everything clearly laid out but some hints about a person's destiny. Astrologers may have not purused thinking as no one can predict what actions an individual takes, so there is no way to predict someone's destiny.

Ethics should be definitely considered and it is up to an astrologer on how to tell something that may prove to be dangerous to a client. That is why astrologers are supposed to ask several questions not only to validate their findings but also to understand the mental state of a client. If some client constantly wants to have an appointment even for trivial things then if you are a smart and responsible astrologer you will not reveal dangerous things to such a person. I think it comes with experience I guess.

Ancient astrologers would not have told anyone you are a murderer or a wicked person, even if they did adding additional information that is not seen from the chart, the person would have had a choice, we all have a choice.

The example of Constantinople is a good one for electional astrology which is meant for things to last for a long time but not forever. Whatever may have been the reason didn't Constantinople play a key role in European history?

Quote:
Now why wouldn't those who possess a specialized, priestly authoritative knowledge insist to others that they alone hold that knowledge? And that all should submit to them?


This is digressing from the topic but I think you already know the answer.

Probably the quality of astrologers is so bad or people do not care about the most opportune moment to get married by not believing in them but any good time is fine for getting married.
Quite
__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related Hippocrates Let food be your medicine: let medicine be your food. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvz9uSK3zXo Rosencrantz & Guildenstern are Dead Tom Stoppard http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KchhSIVwMdY Every exit is an entrance to somewhere else. VETTIUS VALENS FREE http://www.csus.edu/indiv/r/rileymt/...s%20entire.pdf
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JUPITERASC For This Useful Post:
lostinstars (07-27-2019)
  #294  
Unread 07-27-2019, 02:48 PM
lostinstars lostinstars is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 160
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Synastry is an interesting topic. For example, even a Mod might say what looks like a particularly bad match is "fated to fail".

Here's an anecdotal example of a REALLY incompetent "astrologer":
I was doing free readings at a small "wellness store" (supplements, homeopathy, herbal remedies, etc.). One of the employees said she didn't "believe" in astrology , because an "astrologer" had advised her not to marry her husband. She ignored the advice, the marriage is going great, two healthy children, and a wonderful relationship. I asked her what the bad advice was based on, and it was SOLELY on the fact that both she and her husband have Sun in Scorpio!
And people wonder why astrology isn't taken seriously!
Such things are quite common I guess. As long as an astrologer does not tell what someone needs to do, there is more freedom and empowerment on the part of a native to take appropriate action.
__________________
Atum replied I will build the Zodiac, a secret mechanism in the stars linked to unerring and inevitable fate. The lives of men, from birth to final destruction, shall be controlled by the hidden workings of this mechanism.
Reply With Quote
  #295  
Unread 07-28-2019, 03:50 PM
wilsontc's Avatar
wilsontc wilsontc is offline
Senior Member, Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,697
fate takes away personal responsibility

My two cents on this:

The problem with a fated view of the world is it takes away personal responsibility. There is no need to know anything about your life since it is unchangeable and nothing you do can affect it. While you may want to know about your life path out of curiosity, there is no reason to do so since you can not affect it since your actions have no effect on it. A belief in fate also permits people to commit atrocities because, if everything is fated then those atrocities are fated. It eliminates the idea of "punishment" for a crime since no one has any choice of whether or not to commit a crime, why should they be punished for it? Ultimately a fated view of the world develops into stagnation, since no action is required or demanded of a person since everything will happen the way it is planned out to happen no matter what you do, think, or say about it.

Traditional astrology had to deal with this issue in some way, or there would be no need for people to consult Traditional astrologers for information about the future. So Traditionalists suggest that it's a good idea for people to know what WILL happen, while not exploring WHY that's so important or even useful. These Traditional astrologers suggest somehow a person will be able to USE this astrological information, even while insisting that it is unchangeable and un-developable as it is fated.

Modern astrology (or psychological astrology as some like to call it) was a reaction AGAINST this fated world view. It rose because of the belief that people DO have control over their life and SHOULD have control over their life. And that awareness of another person's life should NOT be in the hands of a stranger (the master astrologer) but should be accessible to the person THEMSELVES. So a surge of "you can be an astrologer" books and, later, web sites, opened up, simplifying and universalizing astrological information access. Modern astrologers believe that, yes, people have certain energies and world views that they live inside, but they STILL can make choices inside those energies and world views and use them in the way that is best for THEM. The "psychology" is in helping people to understand themselves INSIDE in order to best figure out how to interact with the world OUTSIDE.

Some Traditionalists have noticed this new focus on "free will" and re-examined Traditional astrology with an eye to trying to give people SOME options in their life, even though insisting that MOST things are fixed and unchangeable.

A fated view of the world simplifies everything and removes you from all responsibility. A free will view of the world makes your life a complex source of choices, every one of which influence where you go and how well you "fit in" with who you are. Which choice you make to believe in or whether you make a mixture of choices is up to you.

About the changing nature of astrology,

Tim
__________________
To learn basic astrological chart interpretation for your chart see:
http://learnaboutyourastrochart.jimdo.com/
Reply With Quote
  #296  
Unread 07-28-2019, 04:04 PM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,550
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Interesting.

From my observations of the thread, there is more agreement on the fundamental question of the thread underneath the astrological and technical differences, since most (which includes the OP) believe that there are gradations of free-will and fate working in someone's life. With a few notable examples who say there is no free will, who ironically (?) are actually more on the modern side of things.

Are we all just talking passed each other while agreeing?
__________________
Epoche
Reply With Quote
  #297  
Unread 07-28-2019, 04:06 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,661
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

"Modern": If you don't see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.
"Traditional": Even if you see it coming, you won't know what to do when it gets there.
Reply With Quote
  #298  
Unread 07-28-2019, 04:17 PM
conspiracy theorist's Avatar
conspiracy theorist conspiracy theorist is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: a pit
Posts: 14,550
Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Bounded free-will was a belief among the Greeks (I don't have the source at hand). The moniker "traditional astrology" begins with the Hellenists. And it's never emphasized that a lot of the texts that were passed down by the ancients were similar to study guides - we can assume that a lot that was taught wasn't recorded.

"Within the confines of your astrology, you have choice as to how you manifest the energies" I understand this as the modern viewpoint. Is this incorrect?

It seems like the difference that is highlighted in this thread of the prototypical traditional astrologer is that they are "teacher-centered" while the prototypical modern astrologer is "student-centered".
__________________
Epoche
Reply With Quote
  #299  
Unread 07-28-2019, 04:33 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,661
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

Quote:
Originally Posted by conspiracy theorist View Post
Bounded free-will was a belief among the Greeks (I don't have the source at hand). The moniker "traditional astrology" begins with the Hellenists. And it's never emphasized that a lot of the texts that were passed down by the ancients were similar to study guides - we can assume that a lot that was taught wasn't recorded.

"Within the confines of your astrology, you have choice as to how you manifest the energies" I understand this as the modern viewpoint. Is this incorrect?

It seems like the difference that is highlighted in this thread of the prototypical traditional astrologer is that they are "teacher-centered" while the prototypical modern astrologer is "student-centered".
I recall a member saying that Dane Rudhyar was teacher-centered--got kicked out for disagreeing with one of Dane's pontifications.
Reply With Quote
  #300  
Unread 07-28-2019, 04:36 PM
david starling david starling is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Yes
Posts: 19,661
Smile Re: Comparison of fate vs free will in traditional astrology vs modern astrology

What if Vettius Valens would have embraced "Modern" astrology had he been privy to modern science and technology?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
astrology, comparison, fate, free, modern, traditional

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2005-2018, AstrologyWeekly.com. Boards' structure and all posts are property of AstrologyWeekly.com and their respective creators. No part of the messages sent on these boards may be copied without their owners' explicit consent.