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  #1  
Unread 10-06-2017, 08:11 PM
vettius valens vettius valens is offline
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Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Any guide on how to do it?


If someone can facilitate this passage from vettius valens, it would be great as I find it a little hard to understand just like many other old passages

Quote:
Having determined accurately the sun’s degree-position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion
falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equivalent sign (i.e. either
masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For
example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22°. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio; the sign in trine
to the left is Pisces. If the birth was in the day, either Pisces or Taurus or Cancer must be the Ascendant.
If the birth was at night, one of the diametrically opposite signs <must be>. Virgo would be in the
Ascendant in the first hour <of the night>.
Thanks for your time

[Deleted most of quote that was over 100 words, in violation of forum rules. - Moderator]


Last edited by Osamenor; 01-02-2018 at 04:57 PM.
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Unread 10-06-2017, 10:07 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vettius valens View Post

Any guide on how to do it?
If someone can facilitate this passage from vettius valens, it would be great as I find it a little hard to understand just like many other old passages
Quote:
Having determined accurately the sun’s degree-position at the nativity, note where the dodekatemorion
falls. The sign in trine to the left of this position will be the Ascendant, or the equivalent sign (i.e. either
masculine or feminine), providing you take into account the distinction between night and day births. For
example: let the sun be in Aquarius 22°. The dodekatemorion of this point is in Scorpio; the sign in trine
to the left is Pisces. If the birth was in the day, either Pisces or Taurus or Cancer must be the Ascendant.
If the birth was at night, one of the diametrically opposite signs <must be>. Virgo would be in the
Ascendant in the first hour <of the night>.
There's a previous discussion on this matter
at
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44119&highlight=Thoth

[Deleted quote of quote that was over 100 words. - Moderator]
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Last edited by Osamenor; 01-02-2018 at 04:59 PM.
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Unread 10-10-2017, 07:10 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Thanks. That was useful
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Unread 10-11-2017, 04:16 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

You can cast your chart for just about any date, past or present, using the free software at Astrodienst www.astro.com My recollection of this passage from Valens was that it gave several alternative methods for estimating an ascendant, for casting a chart when the birth time wasn't known. If you know your birth time, just input it into the free charts page at Astrodienst.

Valens knew about other house systems but I once cast his charts based on the dating by Ottoe Neugebauer, and the only way I could get them to work out was with whole signs houses.
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Unread 10-11-2017, 10:59 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You can cast your chart for just about any date, past or present, using the free software at Astrodienst www.astro.com My recollection of this passage from Valens was that it gave several alternative methods for estimating an ascendant, for casting a chart when the birth time wasn't known. If you know your birth time, just input it into the free charts page at Astrodienst.

Valens knew about other house systems but I once cast his charts based on the dating by Ottoe Neugebauer, and the only way I could get them to work out was with whole signs houses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Valens in his Anthologies gives several verbal descriptions of horoscopes
that are detailed enough to work out the charts.

I did work out several of these following
and somewhat modifying the dates in Neugeberger
and Van Hoesen's monograph Greek Horoscopes.
These scholars set out the problem of dating ancient horoscopes
based on the planetary positions mentioned in ancient texts and archaeological findings.
They assumed a tropical zodiac, which worked well for their dating methods.
I forget whether this was the Julian calendar, but I believe so.
I used whatever Astrodienst used for ancient times.

Some of the other ancient authors don't mention the tropical/sidereal problem
and didn't publish any horoscopes.
For the ones that did, you could probably find them
dated in Neugebauer and Van Hoesen's Greek Horoscopes,
and work out the charts from them.

Valens in fact provides more than one hundred natal charts of his clients
Valens clearly was a practicing astrologer


Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Both Ptolemy and Valens used the tropical zodiac.
That's debateable
i.e.

QUOTE

'....The early Hellenistic astrologers most likely used a sidereal zodiac
so I experimented with several ayanasmas
and came up with the following chart
which corresponds with Valens description.
Note that he was born just after sunset
on a Sun day during a Sun hour, the first hour of the night......'
Anthony Louis blog
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2017/10/01/the-birth-chart-of-vettius-valens/


This chart is cast in the sidereal zodiac (Raman ayanasma)
for 8 February 120 CE at 6:27 PM LMT in Antakya, Turkey.
The chart data is the same as given by Valens in his Anthology:
  • Sun and Mercury in Aquarius
  • Moon in Scorpio
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Jupiter in Libra
  • Venus in Capricorn (Venus would be in Aquarius in the tropical zodiac and in the sidereal zodiac with a different ayanasma.)
  • Mars and Ascendant in Virgo


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Unread 10-12-2017, 03:44 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Thanks for pulling those old posts out of the vault, JA.

I wasn't sure how much detail on my experiments with Valens's charts this member Valens actually wanted. But I posted my results on an old thread at Skyscript.

Vettius Valens had a lot of information about horoscopes, but I (and Neugebauer and Van Hoesen) found a much smaller set with sufficient information to actually reconstruct the horoscopes themselves. A lot of Valens' info is not so detailed that you could construct a horoscope from it.

I don't know what Anthony Louis was after, but I used a tropical zodiac (Julian calendar) and it came out fine-- and consistent with what Valens wrote about his horoscopes. In the 2nd century CE the two zodiacs wouldn't have been significantly different.
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Unread 10-13-2017, 05:58 PM
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Arrow Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Sidereal astrology places natal planetary degrees 25 behind the tropical, like 26' Aquarius (sun in my natal chart) is 1' or cusp Capricorn in sidereal. The sun transits Aquarius between Feb 14-16 vs. Jan 19-21 in tropical, because of the procession of the zodiac in the last 2000-2150 years. My birthdate is where Capricorn ends, but I'm still Aquarius.
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or , I have the same ruling planets: Uranus and Saturn. I see the Cancer rising. Aries in the MC and Venus was her name!
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Unread 10-13-2017, 08:11 PM
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Smile Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post
Sidereal astrology places natal planetary degrees 25 behind the tropical, like 26' Aquarius (sun in my natal chart) is 1' or cusp Capricorn in sidereal. The sun transits Aquarius between Feb 14-16 vs. Jan 19-21 in tropical, because of the procession of the zodiac in the last 2000-2150 years. My birthdate is where Capricorn ends, but I'm still Aquarius.
With this Ayanamsa, I would still be Pisces-Sun at 3 degrees, but Asc, Mercury and Mars would change to Aquarius. Moon and Venus in Aquarius would change to Capricorn in Western Siderealism, but in Vedic, my Moon would remain in Aquarius.
As far as the Sidereal Ages go, with still 5 degrees to go before the first point of Tropical Aries reaches Sidereal Aquarius, at 71.6 years per degree of Precession of the Equinox, the Sidereal Aquarian Age will begin in 2375.
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Unread 10-13-2017, 08:21 PM
david starling david starling is online now
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Smile Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

I'm still looking for the Ayanamsa (the amount of of separation of the Sidereal and Tropical, equal-Sign boundaries), in order to draw Charts, including my own, Sidereally. Vedic might be the way to go. This will be for Spiritual purposes only. I'll still be using Tropical for Mundane purposes.
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Unread 10-25-2017, 11:06 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Thanks for pulling those old posts out of the vault, JA.

I wasn't sure how much detail on my experiments with Valens's charts this member Valens actually wanted. But I posted my results on an old thread at Skyscript.

Vettius Valens had a lot of information about horoscopes, but I (and Neugebauer and Van Hoesen) found a much smaller set with sufficient information to actually reconstruct the horoscopes themselves. A lot of Valens' info is not so detailed that you could construct a horoscope from it.

I don't know what Anthony Louis was after, but I used a tropical zodiac (Julian calendar) and it came out fine-- and consistent with what Valens wrote about his horoscopes. In the 2nd century CE the two zodiacs wouldn't have been significantly different.
Anthony Louis proves that:
The early Hellenistic astrologers most likely used a sidereal zodiac
so I experimented with several ayanasmas
and came up with the following chart
which corresponds with Valens description.
Note that he was born just after sunset
on a Sun day during a Sun hour, the first hour of the night
Anthony Louis blog
https://tonylouis.wordpress.com/2017...ettius-valens/

i.e.
Anthony using data from VALENS ANTHOLOGY
states that:

This chart is cast in the sidereal zodiac (Raman ayanasma)
for 8 February 120 CE at 6:27 PM LMT in Antakya, Turkey.
The chart data is the same as given by Valens in his Anthology:
  • Sun and Mercury in Aquarius
  • Moon in Scorpio
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Jupiter in Libra
  • Venus in Capricorn (Venus would be in Aquarius in the tropical zodiac and in the sidereal zodiac with a different ayanasma.)
  • Mars and Ascendant in Virgo


notice that Anthony Louis gets planetary data identical with Valens
when he uses sidereal zodiac as follows
using Tropical Venus would have been in Aquarius


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Unread 10-26-2017, 02:32 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
I'm still looking for the Ayanamsa (the amount of of separation of the Sidereal and Tropical, equal-Sign boundaries), in order to draw Charts, including my own, Sidereally. Vedic might be the way to go. This will be for Spiritual purposes only. I'll still be using Tropical for Mundane purposes.
You can do several kinds of Vedic sidereal charts at Astrodienst, and then compare the planetary placements with a tropical chart.
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I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 10-26-2017, 02:34 AM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Anthony Louis didn't prove anything, because the two zodiacs were quite similar when the Hellenists began to promote the tropical zodiac.
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My friends, love is better than anger. Hope is better than fear. Optimism is better than despair. So let us be loving, hopeful and optimistic. And we’ll change the world. Jack Layton, "Letter to Canadians"

I thought we went along paths--but it seems there are no paths. The going itself is the path.
C.S. Lewis, Perelandra.

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Unread 10-26-2017, 05:06 AM
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Smile Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post
You can do several kinds of Vedic sidereal charts at Astrodienst, and then compare the planetary placements with a tropical chart.
Thanks waybread. I'm expecting some changes, of course, although the Moon might remain in Aquarius (haven't had time to delve into Vedic yet). I've been advised to use "Astral" Vedic, since I'll be using it with the Sidereal Age-Indicator located at the Vernal Equinoctial Point, for Spiritual purposes. Are there different Ayanamsas as well? Raman is the one I'm planning to use.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 02:51 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Anthony Louis didn't prove anything
because the two zodiacs were quite similar when the Hellenists began to promote the tropical zodiac.

On the contrary
Anthony Louis highlights that

using data from VALENS ANTHOLOGY
chart is cast in the sidereal zodiac (Raman ayanasma)
for 8 February 120 CE at 6:27 PM LMT in Antakya, Turkey.
The chart data is the same as given by Valens in his Anthology:
  • Sun and Mercury in Aquarius
  • Moon in Scorpio
  • Saturn in Cancer
  • Jupiter in Libra
  • Venus in Capricorn (Venus would be in Aquarius in the tropical zodiac and in the sidereal zodiac with a different ayanasma.)
  • Mars and Ascendant in Virgo

notice that Anthony Louis planetary data is IDENTICAL with Valens
when he uses sidereal zodiac

BUT
IN CONTRAST

IF using Tropical
Venus would have been in Aquarius
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Unread 10-30-2017, 02:56 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Thanks waybread. I'm expecting some changes, of course, although the Moon might remain in Aquarius (haven't had time to delve into Vedic yet). I've been advised to use "Astral" Vedic, since I'll be using it with the Sidereal Age-Indicator located at the Vernal Equinoctial Point, for Spiritual purposes. Are there different Ayanamsas as well? Raman is the one I'm planning to use.
Here's an interesting article on tropical vs sidereal provided by muchacho
https://www.scribd.com/document/5657...GilBrandColor#
Quote:
Originally Posted by muchacho View Post
I have to say that the story of tropical vedic astrology seems to be full of irony. Dicara got this idea from Ernst Wilhelm. Wilhelm wrote an article in 2012 about The Mystery of the Zodiac where he explains these ideas. The evidence he presents is supposed to be textual. His main source is the Surya Siddhanta. However, if you actually read the article you'll see that Wilhelm is presenting a lot more points in favor of a sidereal zodiac than a tropical zodiac. As he has to concede several times in his article: "Surya Siddhanta does not, unfortunately, specifically state whether tropical or sidereal rasis are to be used for erecting a horoscope." There are also some logical and historical errors in his article. I didn't find it well researched and very self-contradictory.

OTOH, Gil Brand, in his article Nature of the Sidereal Zodiac says that "...the writings of famous Hellenistic and Arabic authors like Vettius Valens, Abu Masar and others definitely point to the fact that they understood the zodiac as being sidereal. Abraham Ibn Ezra (12th century) clearly stated that the tropical zodiac is to be used for astronomical calculations, whereas the sidereal zodiac is to be used for astrological delineations."
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Unread 10-30-2017, 02:59 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

by the way
KENNETH BOWSER
is a WESTERN SIDEREAL ASTROLOGER
Kenneth Bowser correctly predicted Trumps winning US Presidency
and
is one of few astrologers who managed to do so
Kenneth Bowser published the prediction on his website Sunday 16 May 2016

https://www.westernsiderealastrology...-election-news
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Unread 10-30-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Here's an interesting article on tropical vs sidereal provided by muchacho
https://www.scribd.com/document/5657...GilBrandColor#
Great article, which even includes an analysis of the Sidereal Ages, using Planetary epochs. Brand prefers the Bhasin ayanamsa.
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Unread 10-30-2017, 03:41 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by david starling View Post
Great article, which even includes an analysis of the Sidereal Ages, using Planetary epochs. Brand prefers the Bhasin ayanamsa.
After learning the methodology
and then conducting personal research
you shall be able to decide for yourself
which ayanamsa to use


"Studies of luni-solar and planetary longitudes mentioned in Late-Babylonian horoscopes and diaries
have revealed that they are always measured from a fixed position with respect to the stars
and are therefore based on a sidereal zodiac.
The use of a sidereal zodiac was continued by most astrologers
of the Hellenistic and Roman Period.

"The following diagram, based on the data in Kollerstrom (2001),
plots the longitude offsets as found in Late Babylonian horoscopes (purple data points)
and Greek horoscopes (blue data points)
with respect to the tropical zodiac.
The slope of the weighed least-squares fit through the data
is equivalent with a longitude shift of one degree in 75.4 years.
Around the year AD 307 the astrologers' sidereal zodiac coincided with the tropical zodiac."
[The black horizontal line is the tropical zodiac.]


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Unread 10-30-2017, 08:34 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Nick Kollerstrom's online article
"The Star Zodiac of Antiquity"
has an interesting graph that compares the western sidereal value
(Aldebaran and Antares at 15 degrees of Taurus/Scorpio)
with the Spica at 30 degrees Virgo zodiac (today's Lahiri value).
The Spica zodiac gives the closest correlation with actual placements of planets in ancient horoscopes.


http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscie..._antiquity.pdf
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Unread 02-28-2018, 12:18 PM
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vettius valens View Post

If someone can facilitate this passage from vettius valens, it would be great as I find it a little hard to understand just like many other old passages
I can explain the method, but I claim with certainty it is useless. Any rectification method to find the rising sign based on calculations is doomed to fail from the start.
The only way to rectify the rising sign is based on real life events and personality and maybe physiognomy. Rectification is a difficult business.

Now there are a few methods to find the rising degree in Valens, one is by Thrasyllus, another one involves conception chart, which is from where the tritutine method derives. I claim with certainty those are also circulatory, useless, illogical and impossible, especially those where you calculate the conception time with only a rising sign.

You must realise that if you calculate a conception time based on the rising sign, you automatically claim a rising degree for all nativities that have the same rising sign at the time. Those who use those methods just deceive themselves.

If the conception time was not based on the chart with a rising sign, and was instead measured in real life, it is possible there might be some correlation.

Also there are twins that are conceived at different times. Not to mention that earlier than 7 month birth births are possible today, which is not accounted in the ancient sources.

Otherwise, rectification by calculation is impossible or just a simple guess, as I have demonstrated. A popular degree rectification method is to take a primary directions event and rectify it to the minute. You can quickly spot the astrologers who do this by claims of exact birth times to the milisecond, as if there was a stopwatch at the nativity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Nick Kollerstrom's online article
"The Star Zodiac of Antiquity"
has an interesting graph that compares the western sidereal value
(Aldebaran and Antares at 15 degrees of Taurus/Scorpio)
with the Spica at 30 degrees Virgo zodiac (today's Lahiri value).
The Spica zodiac gives the closest correlation with actual placements of planets in ancient horoscopes.


http://www.astrozero.co.uk/astroscie..._antiquity.pdf
The graph shows mostly raman-like, a few lahiri, a few aldebaran and a few tropical. Can we really say what ayanamsha they used based on their calculations that are on average -+5 wrong? I have tested quite a few charts in Valens and different charts agree with different ayanamshas better. Very few, but there are some that work only with tropical for example. I would rather take their statements of fixed star placement, which is not prone to calculation errors (not really, but less likely, for example all tropical fixed star placements in Hellenistic astrology are wrong, because of erroneous rate of precession, but not due to wrong tables - i.e. proposed Stobart tables for Valens' charts). Manilius and Valens say the Pleaides rise at the 6th (remember ordinal) degree of Taurus. That is not possible in Lahiri or Raman. Also the latter put Regulus in the Venus bound of Leo, which is contrary to the delineation given in Valens of the Jupiter bound which extends from the 1 to the 6th degree of Leo.

Let's be careful in assigning 20th century Indian zodiacs to Hellenistic astrologers. There is one zodiac, however, that is ancient and agrees with the fixed star placement by Manilius and Valens, also it is the source of both System A and System B, of rising times, of tables and a large part of Hellenistic astronomy in general. This is the Babylonian zodiac.

(Note that taking Theon's formula for granted, produces Raman-like ayanamsha. However, I personally doubt that the same exact formula was used by all Hellenistic astrologers, although I have to admit there evidence on the use of later ayanamshas. At least they did not use Lahiri. Still, I would like an explanation for Aldebaran 15 fixed star longitudes.)

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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

I use the Chara Atmakaraka as the AC, the 9th harmonic I believe it is, while the highest degree planet changes between my tropical and sidereal charts the sign that the Atmakaraka is in does not. This prevents a flat character in my chart and tells more about me in both charts and my life events than the birth time rising sign. It's about 6 degrees away from my rising in my sidereal chart (the one I use more) puts my AC in Scorpio one lord is in Scorpio (Pluto) and one lord (Mars) is in Capricorn, which gives me characteristics that my birth time tropical rising (capricorn) gives me. Everything is connected and there's more than one way of getting to the same or similar conclusion, just food for thought.

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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

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I can explain the method, but I claim with certainty it is useless. Any rectification method to find the rising sign based on calculations is doomed to fail from the start.
The only way to rectify the rising sign is based on real life events and personality and maybe physiognomy. Rectification is a difficult business.

Now there are a few methods to find the rising degree in Valens, one is by Thrasyllus, another one involves conception chart, which is from where the tritutine method derives. I claim with certainty those are also circulatory, useless, illogical and impossible, especially those where you calculate the conception time with only a rising sign.

You must realise that if you calculate a conception time based on the rising sign, you automatically claim a rising degree for all nativities that have the same rising sign at the time. Those who use those methods just deceive themselves.

If the conception time was not based on the chart with a rising sign, and was instead measured in real life, it is possible there might be some correlation.

Also there are twins that are conceived at different times. Not to mention that earlier than 7 month birth births are possible today, which is not accounted in the ancient sources.

Otherwise, rectification by calculation is impossible or just a simple guess, as I have demonstrated. A popular degree rectification method is to take a primary directions event and rectify it to the minute. You can quickly spot the astrologers who do this by claims of exact birth times to the milisecond, as if there was a stopwatch at the nativity.



The graph shows mostly raman-like, a few lahiri, a few aldebaran and a few tropical. Can we really say what ayanamsha they used based on their calculations that are on average -+5 wrong? I have tested quite a few charts in Valens and different charts agree with different ayanamshas better. Very few, but there are some that work only with tropical for example. I would rather take their statements of fixed star placement, which is not prone to calculation errors (not really, but less likely, for example all tropical fixed star placements in Hellenistic astrology are wrong, because of erroneous rate of precession, but not due to wrong tables - i.e. proposed Stobart tables for Valens' charts). Manilius and Valens say the Pleaides rise at the 6th (remember ordinal) degree of Taurus. That is not possible in Lahiri or Raman. Also the latter put Regulus in the Venus bound of Leo, which is contrary to the delineation given in Valens of the Jupiter bound which extends from the 1 to the 6th degree of Leo.

Let's be careful in assigning 20th century Indian zodiacs to Hellenistic astrologers.
There is one zodiac, however, that is ancient and agrees with the fixed star placement by Manilius and Valens
also it is the source of both System A and System B, of rising times, of tables
and a large part of Hellenistic astronomy in general.
This is the Babylonian zodiac.


(Note that taking Theon's formula for granted, produces Raman-like ayanamsha.
However, I strongly doubt that the mentioned formula was used by all Hellenistic astrologers.
Notice also that the equinox was not at 8 Aries in 158BC, as he claims,
rather it is at 6 Aries instead, which if taken into account with the fixed star longitudes
implies a Babylonian zodiac, which is certainly the most plausible case.)

Ancient Astrology. The Babylonian Fixed Zodiac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-fD0sxYxk&t=3713s
Siderial Astrology. The Actual Constellations
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

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Ancient Astrology. The Babylonian Fixed Zodiac https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xX-fD0sxYxk&t=3713s
Siderial Astrology. The Actual Constellations
Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude), as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry. System A and System B come from Babylonia, but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too. But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something. This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because here they also make statements or calculations that are true in both...

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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

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Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude)
as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry.
System A and System B come from Babylonia
but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too.
But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something.
This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because
they actually make statements or calculations that are true in both...

Valens also was keen to pass on the astrology of his predecessors
more than three hundred years before his time
so he copied without changing anything
from those ancient texts he had access to at that time
those texts are now lost
and all we have is Valens record of them

unlike Ptolemy Valens did not alter the information
what Valens did
was to state whether or not he agreed or disagreed
based on his own experience as a practising astrologer

Valens includes more than 100 authentic horoscopes
of Valens' clients or associates, including his own
which is used as an example many times throughout the work
the work also includes tables and the description of algorithms used by astrologers and mathematicians.

There are however many ancient texts that remain untranslated
Scholars such as Benjamin Dykes continue their translation work
and more clarification may be unearthed

Rumen Kolev translates Mesopotamian documents
and his work is unique today amongst astrologers
although many are now learning from him
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Re: Determining the ascendant's sign and degree in ancient sidereal astrology?

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Btw, I corrected a quoted part in that statement (I got confused with Aldebaran longitude), as Theon actually implies a zodiac that is close to modern Raman, my mistake sorry. System A and System B come from Babylonia, but why Theon says 158 BC is still a mystery to me...

Fixed stars longitudes from Manilius and Valens imply a Babylonian zodiac too. But maybe they were confused with wrong equinox and precession rate or something. This is just as confusing as the tropical-sidereal debate, because here they also make statements or calculations that are true in both...
Also, further complicated by the statement that some used Aries 10 VP. Manilius is one who used that VP. He probably also used some substraction, but what amount is a guess. And tropicalists have very early degrees (a few degrees earlier than true tropical longitudes for fixed stars, i.e. Hephaistio placing Aldebaran at 15 Taurus). Is that also an argument for earlier ayanamsha (like even earlier than Babylonian)? I don't think the question can be fully and satisfactory resolved with the available information.
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