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  #26  
Unread 01-24-2012, 06:33 PM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by MSO View Post
Sidereal astrology, to me, has one essential flaw; it uses the constellations.

The question isn't "does it work better?" The question is "is it the constellations that make a sign?"

Take, for example, the ancients using the actual constellations. Did they use the constellations because it was the stars that made the signs, or did they use the constellations because they lacked the processing power of a computer system to determine the signs' boundaries for them?

If the constellations overlap, where does one end and the other begin? If there's a gap between the constellations, where does one end and the other begin? Why are some signs bigger than others? And if you're using 30 degree signs, you're ignoring the actual star placements anyways.

There are too many questions, on a fundamental level, that sidereal presents.

Did the ancients, when figuring out astrology, just use the constellations as place markers? Or perhaps it was a coincidence that the signs and constellations happened to (roughly) match up. It is very much a fact that some constellations didn't even exist (Libra, which was originally the claw of the scorpion) at certain points. The previous sentence really drives home the point that the constellations are in fact just imaginary lines drawn between lights in the sky, adding evidence to them being of no effect to astrology.
Yes - excellent. The other assumption is that the signs were named after the constellations rather than vice versa.

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Unread 01-24-2012, 08:20 PM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Yes - excellent. The other assumption is that the signs were named after the constellations rather than vice versa.
I think the signs were named after the constellations. The more I've been reading, the more it seems to me the ancients were very much concerned with things like ascensional times and signs of equal light. But in order to build a house (or a horoscope) you have to make rooms, hence dividing the sky/circle in 30* segments. So my working theory is the constellations came first, then the signs. I find it really hard to believe that it was a colossal coincidence that they have the same names.
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  #28  
Unread 01-25-2012, 01:22 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by MSO View Post
Sidereal astrology, to me, has one essential flaw; it uses the constellations.

The question isn't "does it work better?" The question is "is it the constellations that make a sign?"

Take, for example, the ancients using the actual constellations. Did they use the constellations because it was the stars that made the signs, or did they use the constellations because they lacked the processing power of a computer system to determine the signs' boundaries for them?

If the constellations overlap, where does one end and the other begin? If there's a gap between the constellations, where does one end and the other begin? Why are some signs bigger than others? And if you're using 30 degree signs, you're ignoring the actual star placements anyways.

There are too many questions, on a fundamental level, that sidereal presents.

Did the ancients, when figuring out astrology, just use the constellations as place markers? Or perhaps it was a coincidence that the signs and constellations happened to (roughly) match up. It is very much a fact that some constellations didn't even exist (Libra, which was originally the claw of the scorpion) at certain points. The previous sentence really drives home the point that the constellations are in fact just imaginary lines drawn between lights in the sky, adding evidence to them being of no effect to astrology.
The Images or 'constellations' may well be regarded by some as simply 'imaginary constructs' - nevertheless the stars themselves on which those 'Images' are based are as real as our sun and therefore clearly do have effect to astrology

Furthermore, a Tropical zodiac natal chart is composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year.

Therefore Tropical astrology cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day
.

Obviously, since a Sidereal zodiac natal chart is also composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year - then Sidereal astrological natal charts cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day either
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  #29  
Unread 01-25-2012, 01:44 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

does anyone know the approx time period they put the constellations in 30 degree wedges? as i understand it the constellations were used as a reference to follow the lunar cycles closely.. in other words, the babylonians were practicing a type of lunar astrology - focused on eclipse data and they needed some type of reference in order to keep track of the location of the moon... if anyone has an idea on the time frame the constellations were put into 30 degree wedges, i would be curious... thanks....
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Unread 01-25-2012, 03:07 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

Babylonian astronomers at some stage during the early 1st millennium BC divided the ecliptic into twelve equal zones of celestial longitude to create the first known celestial coordinate system: a coordinate system that boasts some advantages over modern systems (such as equatorial coordinate system). The Babylonian calendar as it stood in the 7th century BC assigned each month to a sign, beginning with the position of the Sun at vernal equinox, which, at the time, was depicted as the Aries constellation ("Age of Aries"), for which reason the first constellation is still called "Aries" even after the vernal equinox has moved away from the Aries constellation due to the slow precession of the Earth's axis of rotation.[4]


from :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac

next question becomes, what type of astrology were the bab's doing?
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  #31  
Unread 01-25-2012, 03:22 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

FWIW - The Babylonian Astrology Forum on ACT astrology site has posts on Babylonian Astrology. There are few modern day practitioners of the art of Babylonian Astrology Rumen Kolev is one such practitioner and he is also the Moderator of the forum http://actastrology.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=139 and Rumen Kolev also has an excellent website on which he has various articles relating to Babylonian astrological material at this link http://www.babylonianastrology.com/
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Unread 01-25-2012, 03:41 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The Images or 'constellations' may well be regarded by some as simply 'imaginary constructs' - nevertheless the stars themselves on which those 'Images' are based are as real as our sun and therefore clearly do have effect to astrology

Furthermore, a Tropical zodiac natal chart is composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year.

Therefore Tropical astrology cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day
.

Obviously, since a Sidereal zodiac natal chart is also composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year - then Sidereal astrological natal charts cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day either
I can't speak about sidereal, but tropical astrology does accurately state the position of the sun. It has to, or else after enough years, we'd have Aries starting in February instead of March. If you follow the position of the Sun in an ephemeris, it's not like it starts out the year at 10 degrees and 20 minutes of Capricorn, and then every day at the same time it's exactly one degree further. Every day, the Sun is one degree and a minute or two ahead of where it was 24 hours previously. I imagine over the year, this adds up to make up the extra 5 degrees or so.

I'm thinking sidereal works the same since it's the same Sun, but I don't study it so i don't want to say for sure.

EDIT: Actually, now that i'm scrolling through more pages of an ephemeris, it fluctuates. Some days it's a degree and a minute further, some days it's a degree and seconds further, some days it's at the next degree, but a minute behind what it was at the previous day, etc. Either way, my point still stands. Those degrees *have* to be made up at some point during the year.

Last edited by kennedyrosewhith; 01-25-2012 at 03:46 AM.
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  #33  
Unread 01-25-2012, 03:52 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I can't speak about sidereal, but tropical astrology does accurately state the position of the sun. It has to, or else after enough years, we'd have Aries starting in February instead of March. If you follow the position of the Sun in an ephemeris, it's not like it starts out the year at 10 degrees and 20 minutes of Capricorn, and then every day at the same time it's exactly one degree further. Every day, the Sun is one degree and a minute or two ahead of where it was 24 hours previously. I imagine over the year, this adds up to make up the extra 5 degrees or so.

I'm thinking sidereal works the same since it's the same Sun, but I don't study it so i don't want to say for sure.
I'm not 100% sure, kennedyrose, but I think what you are describing is precession, which is why we all debate the zodiacs in the first place. The point is that the tropical zodiac pins the starting point of Aries at the Spring equinox (since tropical is based on equinoxes and solsitces) and we can visually observe that the equinox is "slipping" backwards...from Aries to Pisces (current sidereal calculations I belive...what do I know...have the Vernal Point at about 4* Pisces) and into Aquarius...bringing on the Age of Aquarius. But, everyone has to try each, I think, instead of just saying yea or nay to either, and then decide for themselves what works. Astrology has been explained to me as an art, and an interpretive language. Which means that different artists will work with different mediums (oil vs water colors, vs clay) and in the end...it's the predictions and interpretations that matter.
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  #34  
Unread 01-25-2012, 03:56 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
I can't speak about sidereal, but tropical astrology does accurately state the position of the sun. It has to, or else after enough years, we'd have Aries starting in February instead of March. If you follow the position of the Sun in an ephemeris, it's not like it starts out the year at 10 degrees and 20 minutes of Capricorn, and then every day at the same time it's exactly one degree further. Every day, the Sun is one degree and a minute or two ahead of where it was 24 hours previously. I imagine over the year, this adds up to make up the extra 5 degrees or so.

I'm thinking sidereal works the same since it's the same Sun, but I don't study it so i don't want to say for sure.

EDIT: Actually, now that i'm scrolling through more pages of an ephemeris, it fluctuates. Some days it's a degree and a minute further, some days it's a degree and seconds further, some days it's at the next degree, but a minute behind what it was at the previous day, etc. Either way, my point still stands. Those degrees *have* to be made up at some point during the year.
Not if a solar year has 365.25363 days. If for example a calculation is made for a symbolic progression of a day for a year it only 'works' because no one lives for 365.25363 years. For mundane 'day for a year' progression, then after 360 years, five.25363 years 'vanish' - because there are only 360 in a circle

The natal chart calculated according to the western calendar/Ephemeris follows the sun according to the degree at which it stands daily.

Every four years an extra day is added to make up for the lost time (.25363 days per year) ...

However, adding an extra day every four years is insufficient and another day has to be added every x-hundred years in order to balance the scenario
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  #35  
Unread 01-25-2012, 03:58 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

Isn't precession the reason why the two zodiacs are off? What i was trying to do was argue with JUPITERASC's comment that the tropical zodiac can't accurately state the position of the Sun because there are more days in a year than there are degrees. But in order for that to be true, i think the Sun would have to move exactly one degree per day, and it doesn't.

Plus it just doesn't really make sense to me... If an ephemeris says the Sun is at 24 degrees and 38 seconds Libra, then that's exactly where it is. How could it be anywhere else?
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:27 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Not if a solar year has 365.25363 days. If for example a calculation is made for a symbolic progression of a day for a year it only 'works' because no one lives for 365.25363 years. For mundane 'day for a year' progression, then after 360 years, five.25363 years 'vanish' - because there are only 360 in a circle

The natal chart calculated according to the western calendar/Ephemeris follows the sun according to the degree at which it stands daily.

Every four years an extra day is added to make up for the lost time (.25363 days per year) ...

However, adding an extra day every four years is insufficient and another day has to be added every x-hundred years in order to balance the scenario
Numbers are soooo not my strong suit, just warning you. But i just generated a random chart with a birth month and year of August 1800, and then progressed it to the year 2160, 360 years later. The Sun is 5 degrees behind where it was in 1800. In August 2165, it's about 15 minutes behind. In November 2165 (approximately a quarter of a year later), it's one minute ahead. So 365 years later, it's almost at where it was in 1800. If anything, 5 degrees vanished, not 5 years, and those degrees turned back up once I added 5 years on.

Do i have this right, or did i do something wrong?
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  #37  
Unread 01-25-2012, 04:33 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Isn't precession the reason why the two zodiacs are off? What i was trying to do was argue with JUPITERASC's comment that the tropical zodiac can't accurately state the position of the Sun because there are more days in a year than there are degrees. But in order for that to be true, i think the Sun would have to move exactly one degree per day, and it doesn't.
Nevertheless, the Earth orbits the Sun every 365.25363 days and there are only 360 in any circle so day for a year progressions are not based on the actual time Earth orbits the Sun

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Plus it just doesn't really make sense to me... If an ephemeris says the Sun is at 24 degrees and 38 seconds Libra, then that's exactly where it is. How could it be anywhere else?
How? Although the Sun is apparently at 24 degrees and 38 seconds Libra Tropically - that's not based on reality. The Tropical Zodiac is a mathematical abstraction and simply symbolic because Sidereally in fact the Sun would be somewhere between 28 degrees Virgo and only a few minutes into Libra, depending on which ayanamsa one uses
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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
Numbers are soooo not my strong suit, just warning you. But i just generated a random chart with a birth month and year of August 1800, and then progressed it to the year 2160, 360 years later. The Sun is 5 degrees behind where it was in 1800. In August 2165, it's about 15 minutes behind. In November 2165 (approximately a quarter of a year later), it's one minute ahead. So 365 years later, it's almost at where it was in 1800. If anything, 5 degrees vanished, not 5 years, and those degrees turned back up once I added 5 years on.

Do i have this right, or did i do something wrong?
I would not classify myself as an expert kennedyrosewhith!

I can say however, that for the symbolic direction of "a degree for a year" then five degrees would equal five years

- however what I wrote was "symbolic directions of a day for a year"
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:41 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by kennedyrosewhith View Post
Numbers are soooo not my strong suit, just warning you. But i just generated a random chart with a birth month and year of August 1800, and then progressed it to the year 2160, 360 years later. The Sun is 5 degrees behind where it was in 1800. In August 2165, it's about 15 minutes behind. In November 2165 (approximately a quarter of a year later), it's one minute ahead. So 365 years later, it's almost at where it was in 1800. If anything, 5 degrees vanished, not 5 years, and those degrees turned back up once I added 5 years on.

Do i have this right, or did i do something wrong?
I'm no expert either, though I suspect there are those here who are, lol. All I can say with certainty is that this year, I visually witnessed Saturn moving from Virgo into Libra by looking at my night sky...on or around Nov. 14, 2011.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=157

The best I can suggest to you is to google precession, look at the arguements for and against, and decide for yourself.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:48 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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I'm no expert either, though I suspect there are those here who are, lol. All I can say with certainty is that this year, I visually witnessed Saturn moving from Virgo into Libra by looking at my night sky...on or around Nov. 14, 2011.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...&postcount=157

The best I can suggest to you is to google precession, look at the arguements for and against, and decide for yourself.
If you would prefer a visual explanation of precession, I found this useful video on youtube just now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOPznRRiWOg
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:48 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

What exactly is the difference between a degree for a year, and a day for a year, and how can they yield different results?

EDIT: Is this even on topic?

No, the Sun is still at 24 degrees Libra, but only according to the tropical zodiac. That's wrong according to another system, but only because you're comparing to another system that does things differently. You won't find the Sun at 24 degrees Libra if you're using sidereal, because that's not where it is in sidereal.

Last edited by kennedyrosewhith; 01-25-2012 at 04:53 AM.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:55 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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What exactly is the difference between a degree for a year, and a day for a year, and how can they yield different results?

No, the Sun is still at 24 degrees Libra, but only according to the tropical zodiac. That's wrong according to another system, but only because you're comparing to another system that does things differently. You won't find the Sun at 24 degrees Libra if you're using sidereal, because that's not where it is in sidereal.
This is on topic. The tropical zodiac is based on an idea that the sun orbits the earth, and although that is what most people thought two thousand plus years ago - it is not actually true - therefore the tropical zodiac is a mathematical abstraction. Here's a more detailed visual explanation from youtube entitled "Earth's motion around the sun is not as simple as I thought" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related
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Unread 01-25-2012, 04:58 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

My only advice to any aspiring or practicing astrologer...go outside. Look up. Step away from the computer or the ephemeris. What do you see? Then decide.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:03 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

I understand how the tropical zodiac works and how it originated. If I told you the Sun was at 24 degrees Libra in the tropical zodiac, and you went and looked, would you not find it there? Obviously you wouldn't find it at 24 degrees Libra in the sidereal zodiac, but that's a different system and that's not where I said it was.

Unless what you're saying is that even in the tropical zodiac, the Sun is somewhere else altogether.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:11 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The Images or 'constellations' may well be regarded by some as simply 'imaginary constructs' - nevertheless the stars themselves on which those 'Images' are based are as real as our sun and therefore clearly do have effect to astrology

Furthermore, a Tropical zodiac natal chart is composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year.

Therefore Tropical astrology cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day
.

Obviously, since a Sidereal zodiac natal chart is also composed of only 360 degrees but there are 365.25363 days in the solar year - then Sidereal astrological natal charts cannot accurately state the position of the sun on any given day either
Your argument of the year being longer than 360 days is pointless. The Sun doesn't move 1 degree a day. It varies between 56' and 61' (that actually may be a bit inaccurate... but meh, the point stands).
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:15 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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My only advice to any aspiring or practicing astrologer...go outside. Look up. Step away from the computer or the ephemeris. What do you see? Then decide.
So if the Sun is at 27 degrees Aries, and I went outside and looked up, what would I see? Certainly not the Sun at 27 degrees Aries. Since Aries isn't 27 degrees long
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:17 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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My only advice to any aspiring or practicing astrologer...go outside. Look up. Step away from the computer or the ephemeris. What do you see? Then decide.
Exactly tsmall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82p-D...eature=related
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:20 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

Remember that the tropical "zodiac" actually refers to divisions of longitude along the path of the Sun we call the ecliptic; this is a 360 circle; Aries covers 0 to 29degrees59minutes59seconds portion of that (invisible) circle; then the portion from 30 degrees to 59/59/59, the second portion of that circle, we call Taurus, and so on; once upon a time, portions of the starry constellations called Aries, Taurus, etc, filled each of those portions of the ecliptic path; many believe these portions of that path (the signs) were given the name of the constellations which partially filled them, at the period when Western astrology as we have come to know it, was first systematized. Before that time, however, those same portions of the ecliptic path were partially filled by different starry zodiacal constellations, and over the centuries since that time, the starry zodiacal constellations have moved out of the sections of the ecliptic path (the signs) which they were in when Hellenist astrology gave the signs their starry zodiacal constellation-derived names.
But the portions of the ecliptic path have always remained the same: the first 30 degree portion is still the first 30 degree portion of the path, the second 30 degree section is still the second 30 degree portion of the path, and so on, right around the circle; basically tropical astrology calls these portions of the ecliptic path (which is the Sun's path around the earth, from a geocentric viewpoint) "signs", and they always remain as representing the same area-the same portion or section of the ecliptic path-as they always did. We call the first 30 degree section "Aries"; Chinese call it "Rabbit", and we could simply call it, "Portion (or Section) #1", and so on, around the 360 ecliptic circle.
The issue between signs (tropical outlook) and starry zodiacal constellations (siderealist outlook), comes down to the question: do these areas of space (portions/sections of the ecliptic path) themselves have properties/qualities, OR are these protions/sections of the ecliptic just "empty space", devoid of any qualities, and it is the starry zodiacal constellations IN these sections which in fact gives qualities and properties of influence, to these areas of space along the ecliptic?
This is, really, the foundational question regarding the tropical sign vs sidereal rashi/starry constellation, issue.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:25 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Your argument of the year being longer than 360 days is pointless. The Sun doesn't move 1 degree a day. It varies between 56' and 61' (that actually may be a bit inaccurate... but meh, the point stands).

Average daily motion is about 59 minutes; simple symbolic progression uses 1 degree per year of life; however, among earlier Modernist practitioners who used simple progression, 59 minutes per year of life was advocated as a more precise estimate (I must say, though, that when using simple symbolic progression, 1 degree per year has worked quite well for me)
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:26 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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So if the Sun is at 27 degrees Aries, and I went outside and looked up, what would I see? Certainly not the Sun at 27 degrees Aries. Since Aries isn't 27 degrees long
Let's see, lol. Sun at 27* Aries is still above the horizon? I'd say you'd see retina burns, or at least sun spots for a few minutes. "Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the Sun..."

As far as Aries not being 27* long, that was my point on an earlier thread (jeez, I thought we were subscribed to the same ones, and it was me following you, lol...I'm having deja vu right now. ) In that when looking up, early astrologers were more concerned than we are today with the ascensional times (thanks, JUPITERASC) as well as signs of equal light and all that, and then imposed the whole 30* houses on top. I'm not saying one or the other is right or wrong, only that we all need to keep an open mind, and like every dang thing else about astrology, decide for ourselves.
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Unread 01-25-2012, 05:36 AM
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Re: Sidereal vs tropical

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Average daily motion is about 59 minutes; simple symbolic progression uses 1 degree per year of life; however, among earlier Modernist practitioners who used simple progression, 59 minutes per year of life was advocated as a more precise estimate (I must say, though, that when using simple symbolic progression, 1 degree per year has worked quite well for me)
There's not much of a difference there

I can't even use progressions without thinking "my god this is stupid.." But that's another thread...
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