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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #26  
Unread 06-05-2019, 04:06 PM
moonkat235 moonkat235 is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by HYHOANG View Post
The title pretty much explains itself. I am no skeptic, I'm just wondering if there is any way for us to look at astrology and explain it scientifically. Just why does astrology work, and how can it influence our lives, individually and collectively? Also are there any books on this particular topic that I can read on?
I definitely think you can approach astrology using the scientific method, and by formulating hypotheses about certain facets of astrological concepts and ideas. It's like with any large branch of knowledge (history, medicine, language, etc.). We don't know everything, so we have to keep digging and searching and experiencing or experimenting. At least that's how I think about it.

I guess I struggle a bit when I really think about the definition of science, rather than the connotations we generally have. First thought that popped into my mind was physics and then medicine was next, but these are just aspects of 'science' rather than 'science' itself, imo. I almost want to define the term 'science' as more of an approach, like 'science' is actually the attempt to explain the universe systematically. I'm not sure I'm explaining this all that well... lol Anyway, if I think of a better way to articulate my thoughts, I'll make another post.

I think astrologers study and approach the physical and natural world through the use of observation and experimentation. I figure astrology is meant to be a system, a set of interconnecting parts working together to offer an explanation of the observable and shared reality.

(Sometimes, I think words and language in general have so many connotations that it's necessary to give some definitions so there's less room for miscommunication.)

The definitions I'm using are from google's dictionary. lol

Science: the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Scientific Method: a method of procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses.

Hypothesis: a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.

System: a set of things working together as parts of a mechanism or an interconnecting network.


Last edited by moonkat235; 06-05-2019 at 04:15 PM. Reason: added a definition
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  #27  
Unread 06-05-2019, 08:34 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by Loda41 View Post
Your talking about Quantum Physics. It is a legitimate question but beyond the scope of this webcite.

I agree with this.you have to reject the standard model and consider astrology within the parameters of quantum theory, if you are looking for a deductive pattern.
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  #28  
Unread 06-05-2019, 09:39 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Here's a true story.

I'm an old cab driver. One night in Fort Worth I was having a good night, keeping busy, making money. But there came a lull. So I parked in front of the Old South Pancake House, waiting on a call.

My mind slipped into a meditative state, and I was passively observing my thoughts as they passed by one by one like the cars on a train.

The thought came by: "Wouldn't it be cool if I got a $25 round trip?" Other thoughts followed. Two or three minutes later I got a call. It was to pick up the hotel just down the street.

As I pulled into the hotel parking lot I saw three young men running toward me.

"You're a cab driver. You know where the girls are!"

"Yes, I do. But:
1. It's late.
2. It's cold.
3. It rained a couple of hours ago and drove the girls off the street. I don't think you will find any girls tonight."

They insisted. I took them on a tour: no girls in sight. So I dropped them off at the hotel, collected my $25 fare, and went back to the Old South. Exactly the thought I had a couple of minutes before I took the call...a $25 round trip.

That is a true and objective report of what happened.

Now explain this scientifically. The same difficulty plagues proving astrology.
No takers?
What possible explanations?

Quiet mind, disengaged, no thinking going on, just observing thoughts as they hatch and march off to where ever undeveloped thoughts go. My mind was at rest, still. Quietly watching, nothing more. That was my subjective state, which occurred spontaneously and was not consciously directed, at the moment the thought "$25 round trip" came into view and sailed on.

Two or three minutes after I had noticed the thought, the call to pick up the hotel came onto my computer screen. The computer works by radio; just in case it's pertinent...I had some metallic fillings in my teeth.

The hotel was about two hundred yards from my position, on the other side of the built-up earth that carried the freeway.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-05-2019 at 10:18 PM.
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  #29  
Unread 06-05-2019, 10:15 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Here's a true story.

I'm an old cab driver. One night in Fort Worth I was having a good night, keeping busy, making money. But there came a lull. So I parked in front of the Old South Pancake House, waiting on a call.

My mind slipped into a meditative state, and I was passively observing my thoughts as they passed by one by one like the cars on a train.

The thought came by: "Wouldn't it be cool if I got a $25 round trip?" Other thoughts followed. Two or three minutes later I got a call. It was to pick up the hotel just down the street.

As I pulled into the hotel parking lot I saw three young men running toward me.

"You're a cab driver. You know where the girls are!"

"Yes, I do. But:
1. It's late.
2. It's cold.
3. It rained a couple of hours ago and drove the girls off the street. I don't think you will find any girls tonight."

They insisted. I took them on a tour: no girls in sight. So I dropped them off at the hotel, collected my $25 fare, and went back to the Old South. Exactly the thought I had a couple of minutes before I took the call...a $25 round trip.

That is a true and objective report of what happened.

Now explain this scientifically. The same difficulty plagues proving astrology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
No takers?
What possible explanations?

Quiet mind, disengaged, no thinking going on, just observing thoughts as they hatch and march off to where ever undeveloped thoughts go. My mind was at rest, still. Quietly watching, nothing more. That was my subjective state, which occurred spontaneously and was not consciously directed, at the moment the thought "$25 round trip" came into view and sailed on.
the fact that no one on this forum has provided "a scientific explanation"
does not mean there is none
i.e.
ours is an astrological AMATEUR learning forum
not "a scientific forum"
in any event

no one has as yet defined "scientific explanation"
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  #30  
Unread 06-05-2019, 10:27 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

The scientific method is drilled into us from very early on and we are absolutely unaware of the degree to which this influences our mode of perception and thought.

As I am easy to live with and undemanding, I would settle for "reasonable" or "logical" in lieu of "scientific".

I use "scientific method" in the loosest way here.

Last edited by greybeard; 06-05-2019 at 10:31 PM.
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  #31  
Unread 06-06-2019, 03:51 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

It wasn't intuitive.

Round trips are not that common.
There is no set price for any trip. $25 is an unusually large fare, not common.

I have a sensitive and active intuitive mind and am used to watching it work. This was very different.
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  #32  
Unread 06-06-2019, 04:01 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

I bring up this personal experience to illustrate the difficulty in explaining how astrology works. This simple personal experience can't compare to astrology in level of complexity, yet even so I have never found a suitable explanation that does not contain mystery. And mystery is unscientific.
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  #33  
Unread 06-06-2019, 04:34 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Second cab story.
I pick up a man going to DFW. It turns out he is a crew leader at JPL...a real rocket scientist.
So I mention that I had read of an experiment in which two separate beams of light, travelling in opposite directions from a single source act really weird. Beam A is intercepted in its course by a mirror which makes it turn north. Companion Beam B, which is not intercepted, simultaneously turns north too.

He said he was familiar with the experiment. And then he said, with a dramatic pause..."Kinda Metaphysical, isn't it?"

And astrology is kinda metaphysical, isn't it?
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  #34  
Unread 06-06-2019, 04:47 AM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
So you either believe that astrology is a subjective phenomenon like waybread, or you have no idea what you are talking about.
Petosiris, mind your manners. You are welcome to your viewpoints; there is no need for insulting behavior. That's the second time. No mas. Ya.
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  #35  
Unread 06-06-2019, 11:44 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

I have my doubts about astrology having singular physical explanations. The Moon and Sun can have demonstrable magnetic influence without that influence being sufficient explanation. If current scientists have no interest in further exploration, then we have to “make do” with available explanatory options. I don’t feel compelled to stretch to fit, personally. It would be reductive to look for a purely physics explanation for phenomena more truthfully belonging to multiple disciplines of knowledge.
The attempt to make a hard science out of psychology is arguably what diminished its unique value proposition and diminished the skill of its practitioners too.
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  #36  
Unread 06-06-2019, 02:37 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by greybeard View Post
Petosiris, mind your manners. You are welcome to your viewpoints; there is no need for insulting behavior. That's the second time. No mas. Ya.
It's not an insult, it's a fact. Something either is or is not.
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  #37  
Unread 06-06-2019, 04:08 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

There are some highly competent astrologers among our amateurs. And some professionals.

You are going round and round, avoiding the question. If we are going to spend the day quibbling about "scientific" or logical, about whether an amateur is entitled to a thought, then count me out.

What explains this mysterious event? "Scientific", as defined by the OP, deals with "material and physical" matters. This event was not physical-material; it was an experience on the psychological plane.

It was not "intuitive".

Last edited by greybeard; 06-06-2019 at 04:30 PM.
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  #38  
Unread 06-06-2019, 04:38 PM
greybeard greybeard is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Astrology does not "work" through physical means (gamma rays, gravitation, etc.).

Will someone please explain to me how "entanglement" works?

Long and short, astrology works. I have no need to either defend or explain it, but only to learn to use it wisely.
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  #39  
Unread 06-06-2019, 05:14 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Ok, you are entitled to your opinion.

But in the real world, if something is measurable, it is physical/scientific. Astrology, unlike most religious beliefs, is falsifiable.
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  #40  
Unread 06-06-2019, 05:17 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

You do not need a mechanism, you only need to show results. Every sincere practitioner tries to do that, just with not enough methodological vigour.
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  #41  
Unread 06-06-2019, 05:19 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Long and short, astrology works.
You are making a falsifiable statement. You are declaring that the whole or some part of astrology is physics, which is an extraordinary claim that may or may not be correct.
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  #42  
Unread 06-07-2019, 12:07 AM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Denouncing astrology as unscientific is a futile endeavour and an implausible contradiction for astrologers. Its main attraction is the promise that it contains entirely new and extremely important knowledge that might be gained from its study. People just need to be less arrogant and go more humble about it, because certain favourable views upon the subject may turn out to be false, and as it was stated before, there is no available mechanism or solid enough evidence (there are a lot more things that are to be tested though). In this way it has potential to outgrow its fringe theories.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-07-2019 at 12:17 AM.
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  #43  
Unread 06-07-2019, 09:29 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Denouncing astrology as unscientific is a futile endeavour and an implausible contradiction for astrologers. Its main attraction is the promise that it contains entirely new and extremely important knowledge that might be gained from its study. People just need to be less arrogant and go more humble about it, because certain favourable views upon the subject may turn out to be false, and as it was stated before, there is no available mechanism or solid enough evidence (there are a lot more things that are to be tested though). In this way it has potential to outgrow its fringe theories.
Maybe I get you wrong, but from what I have read from you so far, it seems like you take a practice humankind has been involved in for millennia, and appoint yourself to a position to decide what to keep and what to discard, based on your preferred theoretical framework, which you call "scientific".

And then there are those of us who think that we, human beings, are not in the position to form a comprehensive theory about astrology (or the universe), that we don't have an all-embracing eye or an all-encompassing mind. And we are arrogant?

There are different ways of knowing. You do not need a PhD in plant biology to be a good gardener. And some biologists cannot keep a house plant alive for more than a month, no matter that they do everything by the book (an acquaintance of mine).

Also, most scientists I know do not equate "scientific" with "true" and/or "real". They consider that the scientific approach has its scope and its limits. Some of what is true and real can be known via scientific methods, others not. For example, I know for a fact that a team member at the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) is a practicing Catholic (we went to the same university), and it doesn't cause him any problems.
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Last edited by Therese; 06-07-2019 at 10:07 AM.
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  #44  
Unread 06-07-2019, 10:49 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by Therese View Post
Maybe I get you wrong, but from what I have read from you so far, it seems like you take a practice humankind has been involved in for millennia, and appoint yourself to a position to decide what to keep and what to discard, based on your preferred theoretical framework, which you call "scientific".

And then there are those of us who think that we, human beings, are not in the position to form a comprehensive theory about astrology (or the universe), that we don't have an all-embracing eye or an all-encompassing mind. And we are arrogant?

There are different ways of knowing. You do not need a PhD in plant biology to be a good gardener. And some biologists cannot keep a house plant alive for more than a month, no matter that they do everything by the book (an acquaintance of mine).

Also, most scientists I know do not equate "scientific" with "true" and/or "real". They consider that the scientific approach has its scope and its limits. Some of what is true and real can be known via scientific methods, others not. For example, I know for a fact that a team member at the LHC (Large Hadron Collider) is a practicing Catholic (we went to the same university), and it doesn't cause him any problems.
I am not a scientist, an all-knowing person, religious or a philosopher. I am just stating my simple brutish honest opinion that astrology makes quantifiable statements that can easily be put to a scientific investigation, if one so obliges to. As a brute, I try to live by my own flawed sense of common sense.

Last edited by petosiris; 06-07-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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  #45  
Unread 06-07-2019, 11:09 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
The OP requests opinion on "astrology from a scientific point of view"
therfore
not unexpectedly
the responder offers their opinion

one may disagree with that opinion
however
everyone - including yourself

is entitled to a personal perspective
as to what comprises "scientific"

the fact that your opinion differs

from that of another member
does not nullify the opinion of that member

and then there are those of us who have an opposite opinion

Quite
however "scientific knowing" is the topic of this thread


there are tens of millions of "scientists"
all of whom frequently argue and oppose each others theories
no one has met with
nor debated with
all "scientists"


clearly you personally are NOT "on the team working on the Large Hadron Collider"
instead you are a psychologist
and psychology is not "a science"
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...er/?redirect=1

furthermore
even if one went to the same university
as a practising Catholic who is working on the Large Hadron Collider
so did thousands of others

and
the practicing Catholic working on the Large Hadron Collider team
must earn a living
and
is paid for their services

1. I am not a psychologist.

2. My problem with petosiris' post was that he labels those who do not agree with him "arrogant". Why call people names when they disagree with you? Why the bashing? There can be a myriad of reasons why one person disagrees with another (different life experiences and different fields of interests etc integrated into a different perspective...).

3. I mentioned the practicing Catholic guy because nobody is punching him at work with Richard Dawkins quotes or the like.
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  #46  
Unread 06-07-2019, 11:15 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Quote:
2. My problem with petosiris' post was that he labels those who do not agree with him "arrogant". Why call people names when they disagree with you? Why the bashing? There can be a myriad of reasons why one person disagrees with another (different life experiences and different fields of interests etc integrated into a different perspective...).
Actually, I didn't meant to refer to any person on this forum. I was thinking about a hypothetical scenario when one would declare that astrology is already proven/scientific or something like that. I think the mistake in most posts so far is one of logical inconsistency that may be coming of a good place due to humbleness.
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  #47  
Unread 06-07-2019, 11:39 AM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
''Both Eysenck and Cattell subscribed to the prevailing positivist paradigm and to the nomothetic approach (e.g., Allport, 1937;Cattell, 1973; Eysenck, 1954; Piekkola, 2011). It is worth examining this predilection in some detail if only because committing one's re-search program to a particular paradigm inevitably alienates it from other paradigms. The twofold temptation may then arise to turn a blind eye to the limitations of the chosen paradigm and to attempt to disparage alternatives (cf. Eysenck, 1986). Yet, Eysenck's critique of non-positivist approaches such as psychoanalysis (Eysenck,1952), contrasted with his willingness to entertain other controversial topics, such as parapsychology (Eysenck, 1982) and astrology (Eysenck & Nias, 1982, 1987). Presumably, one of the reasons for Eysenck's dislike of psychodynamic psychology was that its tenets could not easily be put to the empirical test (see Kline,1972), whereas Eysenck considered that valid experiments could be carried out to test parapsychological and astrological prediction.'' - https://www.academia.edu/28671813/Ha...nd_personality

See also - https://www.amazon.com/Astrology-Sup.../dp/0851172148
Astrology is a nomothetic, not an idiographic enterprise. Therefore it is easy to view it either as a science or as a pseudoscience. I personally do not see the benefit of trying to make it something else, because then it is no longer astrology anymore.
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  #48  
Unread 06-17-2019, 06:40 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Scientifically, the sun and moon cannot influence people's lives and personality on earth. I feel more anxious and stressed when the full moon is in Scorpio and Sagittarius, esp. near mother's and father's day since the moon in these signs and also in Aries and Taurus gives a lot of problems to anyone born under their signs. And anyone born on Dec. 21 (winter solstice), Feb. 15 (my birthdate), Mar. 30 (close to April Fools day) and Oct. 31 (halloween) has a pessimistic outlook on life than anyone born on Jun. 22 (summer solstice), Aug. 22 (my polar opposite), Sep. 30 (Michaelmas day) and Apr. 29 (halfway in the year from halloween).
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  #49  
Unread 06-17-2019, 07:08 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post

Scientifically, the sun and moon cannot influence people's lives
and personality on earth.
Scientifically
SUN definitely influences peoples lives on earth
for example
Without SUNS heat and light
the Earth would be a lifeless ball of ice-coated rock

also


Moon reflects light of Sun
and
Moon in tandem with Sun
influences ocean tides on earth
Gravitational Pull Influences Moisture in the Soil
Moon phase gardening is an idea as old as agriculture
popular in folklore and superstition

but there are scientific ideas to back it up.

The Earth is in a large gravitational field
influenced by both the sun and moon.
The tides are highest at the time of the new and the full moon
when sun and moon are lined up with earth.
Just as the moon pulls the tides in the oceans
it also pulls upon the subtle bodies of water
causing moisture to rise in the earth, which encourages growth.
The highest amount of moisture is in the soil at this time
and tests have proven
that seeds will absorb the most water
at the time of the full moon.
Planting by the phases of the moon
will keep in rhythm with the alternating gravitational pull.
Moon phase gardening considers four phases
or
quarters lasting about seven days each.
The first two quarters
are during the waxing or increasing light from the new moon
and
growing up to the full moon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapAquaPis View Post

I feel more anxious and stressed when the full moon is in Scorpio and Sagittarius, esp. near mother's and father's day since the moon in these signs and also in Aries and Taurus gives a lot of problems to anyone born under their signs. And anyone born on Dec. 21 (winter solstice), Feb. 15 (my birthdate) and Oct. 31 (halloween) has a pessimistic outlook on life than anyone born on Jun. 22 (summer solstice), Aug. 22 (my polar opposite) and Apr. 29 (halfway in the year from halloween).
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  #50  
Unread 06-22-2019, 11:09 PM
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Re: Can we look at astrology from a scientific point of view?

We can only understand it the other way around, so far.


Science is the practice of observing that things work certain ways.
Astrology, when practiced scientifically, that is with empirical and statistical methods, clearly works in certain ways. The question the scientist must ask is: why does this work?
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