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Unread 12-21-2019, 10:55 PM
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Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Hey!
We can derive professional trends from a birth chart.
Like scorpio tendencies in a surgeons's or seventh house tendencies in a lawyer's.
So, do you think that the tendencies to be a member of parliament (or similar areas)in the national parliament may appear on the birth chart? and with what placements?
I'm curious about this and I'm researching charts.
What settlements would you look for legislative reprentative?


Last edited by Scherzy; 12-21-2019 at 10:57 PM.
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Unread 12-25-2019, 08:17 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzy View Post
Hey!
We can derive professional trends from a birth chart.
Like scorpio tendencies in a surgeons's or seventh house tendencies in a lawyer's.
So, do you think that the tendencies to be a member of parliament (or similar areas)in the national parliament may appear on the birth chart? and with what placements?
I'm curious about this and I'm researching charts.
What settlements would you look for legislative reprentative?
Sun, Midheaven and Lot of Fortune in houses, exaltations, triplicities, terms and aspects of powerful Jupiter? - https://i.imgur.com/boCas8X.png

Powerful (in their own degrees, morning direct phases, in 1st, 2nd, 10th or 11th houses) Jupiter and/or Mars predominating the Sun, the Moon and Mercury can help too, as these two planets make leaders.

Finally, you need powerful or operative and masculine Sun and Moon (rising, culminating, anti-culminating, in masculine signs or in their own degrees), as you need rank.

Last edited by petosiris; 12-25-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 03:35 AM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

If you're talking about elected politicians, they have busy twelfth houses more often than not. I'm not sure if that holds true in countries where legislators are appointed rather than elected, but if they're elected by the people, they have to represent something that appeals to the voters. The twelfth house is a place of archetypes and the collective unconscious and mass will. People with significant twelfth house placements can most easily become the archetypes that appeal to many.

The same is true of movie stars, pop singers, and other celebrities. While they don't all have busy twelfth houses, a disproportionate number of them do.
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Not receiving an answer to your natal chart-based question? You are welcome to submit it to the Ask the Astrologer feature on my blog, provided that it follows the feature's ground rules.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 10:42 AM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzy View Post
Hey!
We can derive professional trends from a birth chart.
Like scorpio tendencies in a surgeons's or seventh house tendencies in a lawyer's.
So, do you think that the tendencies to be a member of parliament (or similar areas)in the national parliament may appear on the birth chart? and with what placements?
I'm curious about this and I'm researching charts.
What settlements would you look for legislative reprentative?
Several years ago I did a study on over 350 "Heads of State" - Presidents, Legislators, politicians. These were all Rodden Rated AA charts with no close sign on the ASC or MC. Here are the top placements people had in my study and a reason why I thought these were the top placements at the time I did the study (I may think differently now). Mind you, all the signs and houses had planetary placements, as always with this kind of study. The sign or house placements are in order of the most charts - (a) has the most charts, (b) the next most, etc. but often the ones following a are tied or a and b are tied - the numbers were close enough that I had to include them in "top" category. I used the Placidus house system and there were people in several countries in the study, but more from the USA. I did not list top signs of the transpersonal planets because they are generational. I did list their houses. It's my experience in doing large scale studies, that another study with different charts will reproduce similar trends but not in all placements, just most of them. The top sign could move to second top and third top could become the top and a new sign could emerge as more significant.

1. South Node of the Moon (SN)
a. SN in Capricorn. Heightened need or sense of having and taking responsibility for others – to be a leader in service to others – either taught through family values and conditioning or from past life. Good at managing other people. Also good at stuffing one’s own feelings.
b. SN in 9th house. Has high ideals and big, expansive goals. Is certain of one’s own knowledge, position and authority. Does not doubt oneself or one’s philosophical beliefs and values. Will defend one’s position righteously.

2. Ascendant (ASC)
a. Gemini ASC. Key Words: Intellectual, Writer, Orator, Teacher. “I THINK”. High Intelligence, quick mind, good verbalization skills, can juggle many things at once, versatile, clear objective thinking. Negatives: Indecisive, superficial, lost in busyness, super-intellectual, nervous, cold, aloof, unemotional, indiscriminate.
b. Leo ASC. Key Words: King, Royalty, Nobility. “I WILL”. Need for recognition, authority and being in the limelight. Seen as warm, radiant, engaging, sincere, protective, loving, expressive and naturally parental. Negatives: arrogant, self-centered, vain, hedonistic, dictatorial, autocratic, extravagant.

3. Midheaven (MC)
a. Aquarius MC. Key Words: Revolutionary, Exile, Humanitarian, Genius. “I KNOW”. Detached coordination of all peole and concepts; heightened need to make the world a better place and to fulfill one’s ambiltions, hopes and dreams; diplomatic, social, loyal to a cause or idea, high intelligence. Negatives: Impractical, unorganized, undervaluation of personal friendship, overly talkative, zealot, tries to impose ideas onto others, cold, aloof, little human sympathy.
b. Cancer MC. Key Words: Nurturing Parent, Counselor, Healer. “I FEEL”. Heightened need to nurture others, understanding, compassionate, sympathetic, sensitive to feelings and human conditions. Negatives: clannish, timid, restless, moody, selfish, unfounded fears, over-sensitive, snobby, oblivous to other people’s needs and wants, deeply insecure.

4. Moon
a. Moon in 11th. AA++ Thick skin – able to not take public opinion seriously. Need to fulfill hopes and dreams in the public realm.
b. Moon in 8th. Keeping who you are private, and/or asserting your emotions with power. Often will have money from family inheritance.
c. Moon in 1st. Able to assert emotions or speak one’s mind. Comes across as intimately sincere. Wears heart on one’s sleeve. Leadership qualities. Good idea person. Can be selfish, have selfish motives.
d. Moon in Taurus. Key Words: Naturalist, Conservationist, Banker. “I HAVE”. Expresses self with persuasiveness and persistance; good mediation skills; good people skills; graciously and pleasantly interacts with others without needing to go deep. Possessive, retentive, steady, determined, interested in mundane affairs. Tenacious, thorough, conservative, steadfast, loyal, composed, calm, affectionate, practical, productive. NEGATIVES: Obstinate, argumentative, stubborn, overly emotional or aloof, dry, hard, stingy, rigid, seeks ony material rewards for all efforts.
e. Moon in Leo. Key Words: King, Royalty, Nobility. “I WILL”. Need for recognition, authority and being in the limelight. Is able to play a number of roles well in different situations and expressing oneself warmly and engagingly to all kinds of people. Seen as warm, radiant, engaging, sincere, protective, loving, expressive and naturally parental. Negatives: arrogant, self-centered, vain, hedonistic, dictatorial, autocratic, extravagant.

5. Sun
a. Sun in Aries. A natural leader, a pioneer, idea person, commander of the army. Needs to learn courage and master fear.
b. Sun in Leo. Needs to be in the limelight. Has a sense of being royalty and/or the protector of his or her people. Needs and enjoys winning the hearts of the people.
c. Sun in 9th house. Need to expand oneself – reach out to other cultures – learn new things. Strong goals and likes winning. Can be a judge or lawyer or part of the judicial system. Strong sense of right and wrong.
d. Sun in 4th. Needs to understand and nurture others. Truly wants serve. Has a strong sense of inner self.
e. Sun in 12th. Needs to be a Master and masterful. A visionary. Someone who can stand alone in solitude while acting with compassion with the good of the whole in mind.

6. Mercury
a. Mercury in Pisces. A visionary. Someone who is able to see possible futures based upon present realities.
b. Mercury in Sagittarius. An intelligent, expansive person who loves law and justice and has high ideals for a better world.
c. Mercury in 1st house. Is seen as intelligent by others and expresses intelligence naturally.
d. Mercury in 4th. Intelligence was nurtured in the home and family life. Handles the emotional life from a mental standpoint.
e. Mercury in 8th. Has insight into people’s underlying motivations and the dark side of human nature.

7. Venus
a. Venus in Aries. Needs to think and act independently. To be decisive. Attracts new ideas. Creates a certain charisma. Can be self-serving.
b. Venus in Aquarius. Needs to think and act independently. Has exceptional mind. Can think out of the box. Is humanitarian at heart. Wants to fulfill one’s goals, hopes and wishes. Can make a person think more holistically – what’s good for the whole rather than the individual.
c. Venus in 8th . Attracted to the dark side. Can understand what motivates other people, and therefore, can be ruthless, manipulative, and power hungry. Can also benefit from other people’s money. Venus in the 8th can cause intense desires for revenge.
d. Venus in 5th . There is charisma, desire for pleasures, and notoriety. One can also want to act – be in the limelight – enjoy adoration and applause.

8. Mars
a. Mars in Libra. Increases independence in relationship or desire to be in relationships. It makes a person more aggressive with others? Increased need to lead in relationships.
b. Mars in Leo. Increased desire for being in the limelight – to have attention, accolades, applause – to have goals that further the self – to engage in hedonistic pleasures.
c. Mars in Virgo. Increases the desire to serve others, to have good analytical skills, to go deeply into subjects.
d. Mars in 1st . Increases physical activity – the need to follow one’s impulses and act decisively.
e. Mars in 5th . Increased desire for being in the limelight – to have attention, accolades, applause – to have goals that further the self – to engage in hedonistic pleasures.
f. Mars in 2nd . Increases need to make money, gain value and sense of self-worth through a vocation.

9. Jupiter
a. Jupiter in Pisces.
i. Enhances ability to be a lot of things to a lot of people. Cameleon.
ii. Enhances ability to be empathetic but also manipulative.
iii. Enhances capacity for solitude. Enhances ability to be a visionary, and to see possible solutions to problems.
b. Jupiter in Cancer.
i. Enhances ability to understand and have compassion for the complexities of the human experience.
ii. Enhances personal selfishness.
c. Jupiter in 2nd . Enhances the need to make money and build self-worth through vocation.

10. Saturn
a. Saturn in Sagittarius.
i. Intensifies focus upon goals and winning at all costs or can stay the long run.
ii. Intensifies focus upon the law, judicial system, right and wrong.
iii. Intensifies the need to expand oneself into new territory. It can help a person think big but realistically, which helps one to succeed.
b. Saturn in Scorpio - investigative mind? Protective armour needed for the job?
c. Saturn in 4th
d. Saturn in 12th

11. Chiron
a. Chiron in 1st .
b. Chiron in 12th .
c. Chiron in 8th .

12. Uranus
a. Uranus in 11th .
b. Uranus in 1st .
c. Uranus in 8th .

13. Neptune -no top placements, evenly distributed

14. Pluto
a. Pluto in 9th . Needs to evolve one’s beliefs and conclusions. Person is stuck in the way they see the world and need to re-evaluate basic beliefs.
b. Pluto in 3rd . Needs to evolve the details of what one perceives is true. Needs to seek the small details that lead up to one’s conclusions.

Last edited by Harmelia; 12-27-2019 at 11:34 AM.
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  #5  
Unread 12-27-2019, 05:08 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post
Several years ago I did a study on over 350 "Heads of State" - Presidents, Legislators, politicians. These were all Rodden Rated AA charts with no close sign on the ASC or MC. Here are the top placements people had in my study and a reason why I thought these were the top placements at the time I did the study (I may think differently now). Mind you, all the signs and houses had planetary placements, as always with this kind of study. The sign or house placements are in order of the most charts - (a) has the most charts, (b) the next most, etc. but often the ones following a are tied or a and b are tied - the numbers were close enough that I had to include them in "top" category. I used the Placidus house system and there were people in several countries in the study, but more from the USA. I did not list top signs of the transpersonal planets because they are generational. I did list their houses. It's my experience in doing large scale studies, that another study with different charts will reproduce similar trends but not in all placements, just most of them. The top sign could move to second top and third top could become the top and a new sign could emerge as more significant.

1. South Node of the Moon (SN)
a. SN in Capricorn. Heightened need or sense of having and taking responsibility for others – to be a leader in service to others – either taught through family values and conditioning or from past life. Good at managing other people. Also good at stuffing one’s own feelings.
b. SN in 9th house. Has high ideals and big, expansive goals. Is certain of one’s own knowledge, position and authority. Does not doubt oneself or one’s philosophical beliefs and values. Will defend one’s position righteously.

2. Ascendant (ASC)
a. Gemini ASC. Key Words: Intellectual, Writer, Orator, Teacher. “I THINK”. High Intelligence, quick mind, good verbalization skills, can juggle many things at once, versatile, clear objective thinking. Negatives: Indecisive, superficial, lost in busyness, super-intellectual, nervous, cold, aloof, unemotional, indiscriminate.
b. Leo ASC. Key Words: King, Royalty, Nobility. “I WILL”. Need for recognition, authority and being in the limelight. Seen as warm, radiant, engaging, sincere, protective, loving, expressive and naturally parental. Negatives: arrogant, self-centered, vain, hedonistic, dictatorial, autocratic, extravagant.

3. Midheaven (MC)
a. Aquarius MC. Key Words: Revolutionary, Exile, Humanitarian, Genius. “I KNOW”. Detached coordination of all peole and concepts; heightened need to make the world a better place and to fulfill one’s ambiltions, hopes and dreams; diplomatic, social, loyal to a cause or idea, high intelligence. Negatives: Impractical, unorganized, undervaluation of personal friendship, overly talkative, zealot, tries to impose ideas onto others, cold, aloof, little human sympathy.
b. Cancer MC. Key Words: Nurturing Parent, Counselor, Healer. “I FEEL”. Heightened need to nurture others, understanding, compassionate, sympathetic, sensitive to feelings and human conditions. Negatives: clannish, timid, restless, moody, selfish, unfounded fears, over-sensitive, snobby, oblivous to other people’s needs and wants, deeply insecure.

4. Moon
a. Moon in 11th. AA++ Thick skin – able to not take public opinion seriously. Need to fulfill hopes and dreams in the public realm.
b. Moon in 8th. Keeping who you are private, and/or asserting your emotions with power. Often will have money from family inheritance.
c. Moon in 1st. Able to assert emotions or speak one’s mind. Comes across as intimately sincere. Wears heart on one’s sleeve. Leadership qualities. Good idea person. Can be selfish, have selfish motives.
d. Moon in Taurus. Key Words: Naturalist, Conservationist, Banker. “I HAVE”. Expresses self with persuasiveness and persistance; good mediation skills; good people skills; graciously and pleasantly interacts with others without needing to go deep. Possessive, retentive, steady, determined, interested in mundane affairs. Tenacious, thorough, conservative, steadfast, loyal, composed, calm, affectionate, practical, productive. NEGATIVES: Obstinate, argumentative, stubborn, overly emotional or aloof, dry, hard, stingy, rigid, seeks ony material rewards for all efforts.
e. Moon in Leo. Key Words: King, Royalty, Nobility. “I WILL”. Need for recognition, authority and being in the limelight. Is able to play a number of roles well in different situations and expressing oneself warmly and engagingly to all kinds of people. Seen as warm, radiant, engaging, sincere, protective, loving, expressive and naturally parental. Negatives: arrogant, self-centered, vain, hedonistic, dictatorial, autocratic, extravagant.

5. Sun
a. Sun in Aries. A natural leader, a pioneer, idea person, commander of the army. Needs to learn courage and master fear.
b. Sun in Leo. Needs to be in the limelight. Has a sense of being royalty and/or the protector of his or her people. Needs and enjoys winning the hearts of the people.
c. Sun in 9th house. Need to expand oneself – reach out to other cultures – learn new things. Strong goals and likes winning. Can be a judge or lawyer or part of the judicial system. Strong sense of right and wrong.
d. Sun in 4th. Needs to understand and nurture others. Truly wants serve. Has a strong sense of inner self.
e. Sun in 12th. Needs to be a Master and masterful. A visionary. Someone who can stand alone in solitude while acting with compassion with the good of the whole in mind.

6. Mercury
a. Mercury in Pisces. A visionary. Someone who is able to see possible futures based upon present realities.
b. Mercury in Sagittarius. An intelligent, expansive person who loves law and justice and has high ideals for a better world.
c. Mercury in 1st house. Is seen as intelligent by others and expresses intelligence naturally.
d. Mercury in 4th. Intelligence was nurtured in the home and family life. Handles the emotional life from a mental standpoint.
e. Mercury in 8th. Has insight into people’s underlying motivations and the dark side of human nature.

7. Venus
a. Venus in Aries. Needs to think and act independently. To be decisive. Attracts new ideas. Creates a certain charisma. Can be self-serving.
b. Venus in Aquarius. Needs to think and act independently. Has exceptional mind. Can think out of the box. Is humanitarian at heart. Wants to fulfill one’s goals, hopes and wishes. Can make a person think more holistically – what’s good for the whole rather than the individual.
c. Venus in 8th . Attracted to the dark side. Can understand what motivates other people, and therefore, can be ruthless, manipulative, and power hungry. Can also benefit from other people’s money. Venus in the 8th can cause intense desires for revenge.
d. Venus in 5th . There is charisma, desire for pleasures, and notoriety. One can also want to act – be in the limelight – enjoy adoration and applause.

8. Mars
a. Mars in Libra. Increases independence in relationship or desire to be in relationships. It makes a person more aggressive with others? Increased need to lead in relationships.
b. Mars in Leo. Increased desire for being in the limelight – to have attention, accolades, applause – to have goals that further the self – to engage in hedonistic pleasures.
c. Mars in Virgo. Increases the desire to serve others, to have good analytical skills, to go deeply into subjects.
d. Mars in 1st . Increases physical activity – the need to follow one’s impulses and act decisively.
e. Mars in 5th . Increased desire for being in the limelight – to have attention, accolades, applause – to have goals that further the self – to engage in hedonistic pleasures.
f. Mars in 2nd . Increases need to make money, gain value and sense of self-worth through a vocation.

9. Jupiter
a. Jupiter in Pisces.
i. Enhances ability to be a lot of things to a lot of people. Cameleon.
ii. Enhances ability to be empathetic but also manipulative.
iii. Enhances capacity for solitude. Enhances ability to be a visionary, and to see possible solutions to problems.
b. Jupiter in Cancer.
i. Enhances ability to understand and have compassion for the complexities of the human experience.
ii. Enhances personal selfishness.
c. Jupiter in 2nd . Enhances the need to make money and build self-worth through vocation.

10. Saturn
a. Saturn in Sagittarius.
i. Intensifies focus upon goals and winning at all costs or can stay the long run.
ii. Intensifies focus upon the law, judicial system, right and wrong.
iii. Intensifies the need to expand oneself into new territory. It can help a person think big but realistically, which helps one to succeed.
b. Saturn in Scorpio - investigative mind? Protective armour needed for the job?
c. Saturn in 4th
d. Saturn in 12th

11. Chiron
a. Chiron in 1st .
b. Chiron in 12th .
c. Chiron in 8th .

12. Uranus
a. Uranus in 11th .
b. Uranus in 1st .
c. Uranus in 8th .

13. Neptune -no top placements, evenly distributed

14. Pluto
a. Pluto in 9th . Needs to evolve one’s beliefs and conclusions. Person is stuck in the way they see the world and need to re-evaluate basic beliefs.
b. Pluto in 3rd . Needs to evolve the details of what one perceives is true. Needs to seek the small details that lead up to one’s conclusions.
Ah yes ! They are all true
But I have recognised that most of them have mars conjunct moon,and mars in sagittarius.It was interesting.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 05:15 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzy View Post
Ah yes ! They are all true
But I have recognised that most of them have mars conjunct moon,and mars in sagittarius.It was interesting.

In my study, 13 out of 378 had Moon conjunct Mars.
32 out of 378 had Mars in Sagittarius.
I use Solar Fire's default aspect orbs.
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Last edited by Harmelia; 12-27-2019 at 05:19 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 05:20 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post
In my study, 13 out of 378 had Moon conjunct Mars.
32 out of 378 had Mars in Sagittarius.
Hmm My research was on Turkish and French politicians, I guess thats why
Surprisingly I agree with most of your writing
Especially MC Aquarius surprised me.
What do you think about anaretic degress (29 degree) btw?
Some say it is positive, some negative.
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Unread 12-27-2019, 05:21 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post
In my study, 13 out of 378 had Moon conjunct Mars.
32 out of 378 had Mars in Sagittarius.
I use Solar Fire's default aspect orbs.
..................
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Unread 12-27-2019, 05:28 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzy View Post
Hmm My research was on Turkish and French politicians, I guess thats why
Surprisingly I agree with most of your writing
Especially MC Aquarius surprised me.
What do you think about anaretic degress (29 degree) btw?
Some say it is positive, some negative.

I sort of let the whole chart guide my opinion on degrees like that.
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Unread 01-31-2020, 08:17 PM
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Smile Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
If you're talking about elected politicians, they have busy twelfth houses more often than not. I'm not sure if that holds true in countries where legislators are appointed rather than elected, but if they're elected by the people, they have to represent something that appeals to the voters. The twelfth house is a place of archetypes and the collective unconscious and mass will. People with significant twelfth house placements can most easily become the archetypes that appeal to many.

The same is true of movie stars, pop singers, and other celebrities. While they don't all have busy twelfth houses, a disproportionate number of them do.
take a look at my chart, if you have free time

much appreciated for this insight into mass will. My archetype is the Sage.

https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...d.php?t=131928
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Unread 01-31-2020, 09:00 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scherzy View Post
Hmm My research was on Turkish and French politicians, I guess thats why
Surprisingly I agree with most of your writing
Especially MC Aquarius surprised me.
What do you think about anaretic degress (29 degree) btw?
Some say it is positive, some negative.

My study includes some French politicians - and some from other countries. Can't say off the top of my head exactly all the countries. They weren't all American. But I don't think a country would make a difference. How many people are in your study?
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Unread 01-31-2020, 09:52 PM
petosiris petosiris is offline
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Harmelia have you tried using inferential statistics in your study?
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:47 AM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Harmelia have you tried using inferential statistics in your study?

Do you mean comparing the target population with a control group? No. Or did you have something else in mind?

I've compared several populations to one another, which seems like a similar technique to using a random sample. For instance, I've compared various studies on health, vocation and sport with one another. I've done dozens of studies and compared sign, house, aspect, and most other things we consider in chart reading - moon phase, planetary pictures, elements, modes, chart rulers, rulers of the nodes, - the list goes on - I do searches on everything possible with solar fire.

What I've found is there is never a strong overwhelming indication of a planetary sign or house placement or of any astrological single item that stands out as saying THIS IS IT - like Mars square Moon - or Sun in a certain house and sign. You're lucky if you get 15% of the population with any item. The only time I've ever gotten a higher number is with very small populations - like 10-30 charts in the study. But even then, there is never a majority - say over 50% of the population. Off the top of my head, I haven't seen even a third having some common factor like Mars square Moon or Sun in Sagittarius. If 15% have a commonality, it's a high number. If 20% have a commonality, I'm wowed.

Small studies (10-30) can point the finger at trends that hold for larger studies with over 100. But there will always be a few surprises. High or low numbers present in smaller studies can change - usually averaging. So I'm a fan of larger studies.

AT this point, I do not believe that any population will give a different result - including a random sample. I just don't think astrology works that way. You have to consider a number of factors together to distinguish why a person has a talent or drive for a certain vocation or has a higher tendency to get a certain disease. What is of value in this kind of research is to see the higher numbers and lower numbers - and I take the those numbers and research how else it can be expressed. For instance, if Mars in Scorpio is a high number, then I'll also look to see how many people have Mars in 8th house or Mars conjunct Pluto or Mars square a significant planet in Scorpio - things like that. Then it gets interesting - it can point to establishing a pattern. If a Mars in Scorpio is a very low number, then I can assume that this is not part of the pattern that will make a politician or baseball player or victim of heart disease. The low numbers are as interesting as the high numbers, and probably more significant, because you can get a higher percentage of people with low numbers than people with high numbers. Again, this is true of all the studies I've done.

This takes a lot of time. I've been doing studies for the last 15 years and it's tedious work. At first I was very disappointed and discouraged with these results, but then I realized that at least these numbers point the finger at how and where to start looking for the pattern or patterns.

Do you use random samples? What do you think?
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Unread 02-01-2020, 11:14 AM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

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Originally Posted by Osamenor View Post
If you're talking about elected politicians, they have busy twelfth houses more often than not. I'm not sure if that holds true in countries where legislators are appointed rather than elected, but if they're elected by the people, they have to represent something that appeals to the voters. The twelfth house is a place of archetypes and the collective unconscious and mass will. People with significant twelfth house placements can most easily become the archetypes that appeal to many.

The same is true of movie stars, pop singers, and other celebrities. While they don't all have busy twelfth houses, a disproportionate number of them do.

Have you or someone else done a study on this or is it a theory or logical idea? If there is a study on this, I'd love to see it.

My study of 378 politicians does not show this. I just went through all of them, briefly looking at how busy the 12th house is - visually - as well as the 12th house numbers of how many people have each planet in the 12th. There isn't an elevated number. I do believe there may be a few people who were not elected in this sample, but most were elected heads of state. As I said in another post, a stellium or busy house is a single item and single items rarely seem to be important just in itself - at least this is my finding after years of doing studies. But, in this case, there isn't even an elevated number - at least in my sample. To be fair, I would have to go through these and separate out the elected into a sample and compare them with appointed government officials to test your statement. My sample would suggest that people drawn to be in governmental high positions do not have an elevated tendency to have busy 12th houses. As posted earlier, Sun in the 12th house was a high number, but that's a number representing 15% of the population. That would not be a case of "more often than not". More often than not would be above 50% and that simply doesn't happen in this kind of study. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, as I was hoping that it might work that way. I've just done too many studies to think it is possible at this point. Not after 15 years of doing this kind of analysis.
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

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Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Sun, Midheaven and Lot of Fortune in houses, exaltations, triplicities, terms and aspects of powerful Jupiter? - https://i.imgur.com/boCas8X.png

Powerful (in their own degrees, morning direct phases, in 1st, 2nd, 10th or 11th houses) Jupiter and/or Mars predominating the Sun, the Moon and Mercury can help too, as these two planets make leaders.

Finally, you need powerful or operative and masculine Sun and Moon (rising, culminating, anti-culminating, in masculine signs or in their own degrees), as you need rank.
Is this your best guess or results of a study?
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

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Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post
Is this your best guess or results of a study?
Naturalistic guess based on traditional principles. There are some non-astrological statistical studies that say the Sun in a masculine sign is related to extraversion, which is associated with dignity. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...postcount=3189

I am not an expert in statistics, but descriptive statistics without probability theory can't tell us much about scientific astrology, and is no different from using subjective experience or guesswork. On the other hand finding something with inferential statistics can change the scientific viewpoint of astrology and draw attention to this field from prominent statisticians like Gauqelin did, and less so people from ''Correlation''. They do work with some eminent statisticians though.

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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

I speak as an astrologer who always rectifies a birth chart
before doing anything else with it.
It is nice to have Rodden system to know what other astrologers believe
about a specific birth chart,
but in my experience these data are not reliable at all
- at least not compared with my requirements for exactness.
Sometimes you will find AA data in AstroDataBank
where the date is wrong - compared with e.g. Wikipedia
or well-researched biographies

It’s important to be skeptical and critical
when you deal with data.

For statistical purposes
where you deal with large numbers of charts
you will probably have to accept that
a few percent of the charts don’t have exact birth times
- but if you are a professional astrologer
dealing with a client
the birth chart has to be 100% exact
- in each and every case.

Eskild Rasmussen - Experience with astrology since 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post

Have you or someone else done a study on this or is it a theory or logical idea? If there is a study on this, I'd love to see it.

My study of 378 politicians does not show this. I just went through all of them, briefly looking at how busy the 12th house is - visually - as well as the 12th house numbers of how many people have each planet in the 12th. There isn't an elevated number. I do believe there may be a few people who were not elected in this sample, but most were elected heads of state. As I said in another post, a stellium or busy house is a single item and single items rarely seem to be important just in itself - at least this is my finding after years of doing studies. But, in this case, there isn't even an elevated number - at least in my sample. To be fair, I would have to go through these and separate out the elected into a sample and compare them with appointed government officials to test your statement. My sample would suggest that people drawn to be in governmental high positions do not have an elevated tendency to have busy 12th houses. As posted earlier, Sun in the 12th house was a high number, but that's a number representing 15% of the population. That would not be a case of "more often than not". More often than not would be above 50% and that simply doesn't happen in this kind of study. I'd love someone to prove me wrong, as I was hoping that it might work that way. I've just done too many studies to think it is possible at this point. Not after 15 years of doing this kind of analysis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post


Do you mean comparing the target population with a control group? No. Or did you have something else in mind?

I've compared several populations to one another, which seems like a similar technique to using a random sample. For instance, I've compared various studies on health, vocation and sport with one another. I've done dozens of studies and compared sign, house, aspect, and most other things we consider in chart reading - moon phase, planetary pictures, elements, modes, chart rulers, rulers of the nodes, - the list goes on - I do searches on everything possible with solar fire.

What I've found is there is never a strong overwhelming indication of a planetary sign or house placement or of any astrological single item that stands out as saying THIS IS IT - like Mars square Moon - or Sun in a certain house and sign. You're lucky if you get 15% of the population with any item. The only time I've ever gotten a higher number is with very small populations - like 10-30 charts in the study. But even then, there is never a majority - say over 50% of the population. Off the top of my head, I haven't seen even a third having some common factor like Mars square Moon or Sun in Sagittarius. If 15% have a commonality, it's a high number. If 20% have a commonality, I'm wowed.

Small studies (10-30) can point the finger at trends that hold for larger studies with over 100. But there will always be a few surprises. High or low numbers present in smaller studies can change - usually averaging. So I'm a fan of larger studies.

AT this point, I do not believe that any population will give a different result - including a random sample. I just don't think astrology works that way. You have to consider a number of factors together to distinguish why a person has a talent or drive for a certain vocation or has a higher tendency to get a certain disease. What is of value in this kind of research is to see the higher numbers and lower numbers - and I take the those numbers and research how else it can be expressed. For instance, if Mars in Scorpio is a high number, then I'll also look to see how many people have Mars in 8th house or Mars conjunct Pluto or Mars square a significant planet in Scorpio - things like that. Then it gets interesting - it can point to establishing a pattern. If a Mars in Scorpio is a very low number, then I can assume that this is not part of the pattern that will make a politician or baseball player or victim of heart disease. The low numbers are as interesting as the high numbers, and probably more significant, because you can get a higher percentage of people with low numbers than people with high numbers. Again, this is true of all the studies I've done.

This takes a lot of time. I've been doing studies for the last 15 years and it's tedious work. At first I was very disappointed and discouraged with these results, but then I realized that at least these numbers point the finger at how and where to start looking for the pattern or patterns.

Do you use random samples? What do you think?
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:05 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Naturalistic guess based on traditional principles. There are some non-astrological statistical studies that say the Sun in a masculine sign is related to extraversion, which is associated with dignity. - https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...postcount=3189

I am not an expert in statistics, but descriptive statistics without probability theory can't tell us much about scientific astrology, and is no different from using subjective experience or guesswork. On the other hand finding something with inferential statistics can change the scientific viewpoint of astrology and draw attention to this field from prominent statisticians like Gauqelin did, and less so people from ''Correlation''. They do work with some eminent statisticians though.
Have you read any of Glenn Perry's work? He's written about why scientific research methods don't really apply to astrology and at this point I agree. Here's a link to his page talking about this: https://aaperry.com/astrological-research/. Glenn Perry is one of a few people I've found writing about what astrological research should be or how it should be conducted. If you know of others, please feel free to share. My mind is wide open.

Oh yes, and then Micahel Gaugelin. He used correlation, as far as I know. Thanks for the reminder. I read his stuff a long time ago now. I should revisit it.

It seems to me that as far as research goes, there's no one accepted way to go about it. I know some people think you've got to have a random sample or it isn't scientific.

Anyway, I'm into research - it's my major interest in astrology, mostly because there's so many untested theories. I'm a practical astrologer and I want to know the truth. I like studying solid things like health issues and vocation - something you can actually measure. Either a pattern is found in a specific disease or it isn't. I like bringing it down to earth and tested.

Generally though, if you look at just one item like a strong Sun sign in a masculine sign and house, without looking I can tell you that there will be no huge significance. If you do enough studies, this becomes apparent.
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:15 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

I understand that 1-2% statistically significant increase in anything is impractical in astrology, but that is the only actual research available. I recommend taking an online course in statistics or reading a textbook, might find something useful to use in your study, like phi coefficient - http://www.astrology-and-science.com/D-rese2.htm

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  #20  
Unread 02-01-2020, 10:20 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
I speak as an astrologer who always rectifies a birth chart
before doing anything else with it.
It is nice to have Rodden system to know what other astrologers believe
about a specific birth chart,
but in my experience these data are not reliable at all
- at least not compared with my requirements for exactness.
Sometimes you will find AA data in AstroDataBank
where the date is wrong - compared with e.g. Wikipedia
or well-researched biographies

It’s important to be skeptical and critical
when you deal with data.

For statistical purposes
where you deal with large numbers of charts
you will probably have to accept that
a few percent of the charts don’t have exact birth times
- but if you are a professional astrologer
dealing with a client
the birth chart has to be 100% exact
- in each and every case.

Eskild Rasmussen - Experience with astrology since 1980

YES! You've stated the primary difficulty with astrological research. Unfortunately, to do large studies, you have to use astrodatabank - at least, this is the biggest pool of charts I know of. I also get some charts off of forums and facebook, etc. but these can be wrong too. So we must accept that a few charts will be incorrect. But, you will still get the gist of where the planets fall - and the really high numbers will likely be at least high and the really low numbers will likely still at least be low. These numbers just point to trends - that are only part of a bigger pattern.

Well yes, and Wikipedia can be wrong about dates too. At least astrodatabank says whether the birth certificate is in hand or not. Birth times on birth certificates can be wrong too! My birth certificate says 4 pm and my baby book says 4:05 pm. I've settled on 4:03 pm rectifying it for myself, but honestly, it hasn't been a big deal one way or the other when I test it with events.

Out of curiosity, what method(s) do you use to rectify charts? If you do it for every client, you must have a fairly quick way to do it. Or not? If you don't mind sharing, I'm all ears! It takes me too long when I do it! Sometimes I feel I've really nailed it and sometimes not . . . so I need to improve.
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Fate and free will are equally powerful forces. Yet I consider free will more important, because it is our conscious choices that create our fate.
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:25 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I understand that 1-2% statistically significant increase in anything is impractical in astrology, but that is the only actual research available. I recommend taking an online course in statistics or reading a textbook, might find something useful to use in your study, like phi coefficient - http://www.astrology-and-science.com/D-rese2.htm

I took a course in statistics but I don't have a mind for it. I have to go after it in other ways. Maybe there's a statistics book for non-math folks. Just curious why you thought to mention that 1-2% isn't statistically significant an increase. What were you referring to? Oh and thanks for the link! That's helpful and interesting!
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:33 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post


YES! You've stated the primary difficulty with astrological research. Unfortunately, to do large studies, you have to use astrodatabank - at least, this is the biggest pool of charts I know of.

I also get some charts off of forums and facebook, etc.

but these can be wrong too.

So we must accept that a few charts will be incorrect.

But, you will still get the gist of where the planets fall - and the really high numbers will likely be at least high and the really low numbers will likely still at least be low.
These numbers just point to trends - that are only part of a bigger pattern.
Well yes, and Wikipedia can be wrong about dates too. At least astrodatabank says whether the birth certificate is in hand or not.

Birth times on birth certificates can be wrong too!

My birth certificate says 4 pm and my baby book says 4:05 pm.
I've settled on 4:03 pm rectifying it for myself, but
honestly, it hasn't been a big deal one way or the other when I test it with events.

Out of curiosity, what method(s) do you use to rectify charts?
If you do it for every client, you must have a fairly quick way to do it.
Or not? If you don't mind sharing, I'm all ears!
It takes me too long when I do it!
Sometimes I feel I've really nailed it and sometimes not
. . . so I need to improve.
everyone has their methodology

petosiris posted the following on ANIMODAR method

sourced from the following thread link
https://www.astrologyweekly.com/foru...95#post1017195


11-30-2019, 06:00 AM
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Re: Animodar

I have found a method that is more physical than this and does not involve the preceding syzygy or numerology.

Quote:
36. Nativities
When the moment of nativity is known, it can be examined instead of the moment of conception, the hours must be determined with knowledge of accidental qualities, and with one of the planets in perfect configuration with the Hour-Marker or the Midheaven at every conception and nativity
So, let the Ascendant or the Midheaven be in perfect conjunction, sextile, square, trine or opposition with one of the seven planets regardless of other factors.

We might theorize why this is so - conceptions and births of humans are powerful moments in nature that require the strongest influence of a planet on angles.
UPDATE
Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Yes, nowadays I ignore the syzygy and focus on the planet which makes the closest exact aspect to the Asc (and Dsc) or the Mc (and Ic). A major technical difference between this and the Ptolemaic Animodar is that mine requires a planet to be at the angle or in aspect, while Ptolemy seems to allow it to be disjunct, only requiring the numeric degree it has passed within its sign to be the same (it is like an exact semi-sextile or inconjunct modern ''aspect''). This does not seem physical to me, but rather numerological and uncharacteristic of Ptolemy's intentions of astrology.

So I recommend that one follows a more limited approach with regard to aspects, but more broad approach with regard to rulers. Often, the two methods (the Ptolemaic Animodar and the Petosiris Animodar) will give the same results, since they are based on similar physical reasoning.

I recommend one step - a planet in conjunction, sextile, square, trine or opposition with an angle. Take for example the chart of Ptolemy's second biggest fan (after me) - Girolamo Cardano - https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Cardano,_Girolamo

There is no planet in aspect with an angle at 18:29 when the Ascendant is at 6° 22' Taurus. But noticing that Jupiter is nearby, we can put him exactly at the Ascendant giving us 18:20 time, or a 9 minute rectification. Jupiter rising rather than declining may better explain his life and fame.
consider using the foregoing
instead of the following

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
1. Examine the preceding syzygy, whether it was a new moon or a full moon.
2. If the preceding syzygy was a new moon, observe its degree at the time of the nativity.
3. If the preceding syzygy was a full moon by night, we observe the degree of the syzygy. By day, we observe the degree opposite the syzygy, which is the degree of the luminary above the horizon (in that case the Sun).
4. Observe the degree at the approximate time of the nativity, and give a point to any of the following planets with rulership over the degree at the time of birth (see http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...3A*.html#note9)



5. Give a point to any planet in the same sign as the degree or in sign with some aspect (sextile, square, trine or opposition) to it.
6. If one star is familiar with the degree in all or most of these ways, whatever degree of its sign it is passing at the time of birth, the same numerical degree is rising (Asc) or culminating (Mc) at the time of birth.
7. If two or more stars are predominators, observe the one that is closer to the approximate time. If it so happens that we do not have the nearest hour of birth, we can establish it through combination of accidental qualities. The foregoing rectification is for time with approximate hour.
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Unread 02-01-2020, 10:36 PM
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harmelia View Post
I took a course in statistics but I don't have a mind for it. I have to go after it in other ways. Maybe there's a statistics book for non-math folks. Just curious why you thought to mention that 1-2% isn't statistically significant an increase. What were you referring to? Oh and thanks for the link! That's helpful and interesting!
I meant that small increases in very large samples that are statistically significant are nevertheless impractical in common astrological practice with a client. Like having Mars in the 12th or 9th in relation to eminent athletes - how do I use the Mars effect in any meaningful way for a random person?
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
I meant that small increases in very large samples that are statistically significant are nevertheless impractical in common astrological practice with a client. Like having Mars in the 12th or 9th in relation to eminent athletes - how do I use the Mars effect in any meaningful way for a random person?

Thank you! Yes, I agree. You cannot apply findings in a study to client readings.
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Re: Natal chart of deputies and politicians

Quote:
Originally Posted by petosiris View Post
Like having Mars in the 12th or 9th in relation to eminent athletes - how do I use the Mars effect in any meaningful way for a random person?
If the random person is asking whether they have potential to become an eminent athlete, and they're young enough and able bodied enough for that to be a realistic possibility, you can tell them about the Mars effect. Otherwise, that particular meaning of Mars in the 9th or 12th probably isn't relevant. Instead, if you're looking at their Mars, you'd be thinking about the other meanings of Mars and which ones do seem to apply to them.

Also, most people experience eminence on a small scale. Maybe this random person doesn't become a world famous sports star, but they do become the star of their local league. Local fame is much more common than world fame, and the astrological markers would be the same.
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