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  #1  
Unread 06-10-2008, 03:43 PM
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The Astrologer's Degree

I have heard many theories about the making of an astrologer in the horoscope. I don't want this to turn into a mud-slinging contest about Mercury and Uranus, traditional and modern, but actually I would like to focus on another significator entirely, namely the Astrologer's Degree, as defined by Alan Leo, in "How to Judge a Nativity" (1903).

His assertion was that any planet conjunct the 27° Leo - and less powerfully 27° Aquarius - denoted the reincarnation of an astrologer, and the planet gives a clue as to the mode or character of it.

In my own case, I am often sceptical about the arguments for what "makes" an astrologer; I prefer to believe that a number of significators may prove relevant. Alan Leo himself had Saturn rising at 27° Leo, and curiously he gives no explanation at all as to why he should consider this particular degree to denote an astrologer. The proximity to Regulus is noted, of course.

It goes without saying () that I have Jupiter at 27° Leo, conjunct Venus and Part of Fortune. Don't denigrate me for it, the rest of my chart is like Beirut.

So, couple of questions.
1) Anyone know why this axis is the astrologer's degree?
2) And even more excitingly, who has it? Please post your chart if you do, and relate any thoughts you have about the placement.

Jeremy

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Unread 06-10-2008, 03:57 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Hi Jeremy,

I love Alan Leo's work... it is always what I fall back on. Interestingly so, since his work points out I am "evil" (Sun in 12th Cap)

I have my Vertex at 27 degrees Leo. I had always thought that my interest came from the YODS with Uranus. Now after reading your post I am amused that my Vertex is in the 7th.... and yes, I have dated lots of Astrologers or met partners thru Astrology.

TK

EDIT: I just wanted to add to the post. I was just musing about the anti vertex.... That has been especially prominent in my life. I just remembered that was my Father's Moon degree, 27 Aquarius. When I was quite young (eons ago) my Father would go to thrift stores and pick up tons and tons of books. He would always slip me some with out saying anything but "here you go" and they would be on the occult and Astrology. We never talked about it.... he just assumed I would want those books. I recently met someone with their Sun sign in that degree of Aquarius while the NN was at 27 degrees Aquarius as was the Moon. My learning curve and interest in Astrology has sky rocketed since.... hmmmm....
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Last edited by wintersprite1; 06-10-2008 at 05:21 PM.
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  #3  
Unread 06-10-2008, 05:55 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersprite1
I love Alan Leo's work... it is always what I fall back on.
TK, I love Alan Leo too, he was the first astrologer I read and my copy of "How to Judge a Nativity" was the first astrology work I owned; I still have it now, it is in a sorry state, but I treasure it, perhaps not for the text content any more so much as the nostalgic goodness of it.

I always felt that his ambience was quite Saturnine, and if the planet at the Astrologer's Degree does colour the astrologer's style then that definitely comes across in his writing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersprite1
I had always thought that my interest came from the YODS with Uranus.
Actually you have a Double Yod Key, if I'm not mistaken (and I can be mistaken, Neptune in the 3rd has that tendency of course), that is vanishingly rare, as you no doubt know, not to mention quite tricky to live with, I would say...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersprite1
I am amused that my Vertex is in the 7th
that sounds like you'll at least marry an astrologer! My understanding of the vertex is that it signifies chance encounters with destiny, usually in the form of another person. I think that is very fascinating. Perhaps chance encounters with destiny will make you into an astrologer? Well, I should say have made you into an astrologer, all starting with good old Dad.

My own vertex is at an 18 minute conjunction with Chiron. Wooo. (I have no idea what to make of that either!)
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Last edited by Jeremy; 06-10-2008 at 06:01 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2008, 09:30 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Upon reading this, I immediately went to my chart to see whether there is anything at 27 Leo in my chart,... an Arabic Part, anything, really! And there is Ceres...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
... if the planet at the Astrologer's Degree does colour the astrologer's style ...
Wow, so Ceres is my style!

What is the use of Ceres in a man's chart anyway?

Edit: oh, I remember - I succesfully used the Jonas-Dicu astrological method in order to conceive both of my children (a Ceres thing, finally), in order to "spare efforts" and it worked from the first try, each time

Last edited by Radu; 06-10-2008 at 09:35 PM.
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Unread 06-10-2008, 10:08 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radu
Wow, so Ceres is my style!
I hear you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radu
What is the use of Ceres in a man's chart anyway?
Good question, I struggle with Ceres too. I read one place that it's how we nurture ourselves; so what does that say, you nurture yourself by being a respected astrologer? I don't know, but it could keep you awake tonight trying to figure it out!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radu
Edit: oh, I remember - I succesfully used the Jonas-Dicu astrological method in order to conceive both of my children (a Ceres thing, finally), in order to "spare efforts" and it worked from the first try, each time
In order to "spare efforts!?" I thought the effort was the point! But hey, it's the Astrologer's Degree, so if that is the case then it's your unique style, the astrology of making babies! *bows in respect*
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  #6  
Unread 06-10-2008, 11:28 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radu


Wow, so Ceres is my style!

What is the use of Ceres in a man's chart anyway?
You conceived, birthed, and nurtured this forum and all us kids.


TK

EDIT: Just adding more..... the Forum's chart POF is 26°57’46" Leo .... I'd say that's close enough!
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Last edited by wintersprite1; 06-11-2008 at 01:58 AM.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 03:07 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

I guess I ain't good enough. My Sun is 23 degrees Leo! Sheesh! I guess I'll just quit this and find other things to do. Thanks a lot people I have found my true life calling. I'm not good enough!
(I am LionKing and I do not approve of this message, ha!) Take care ya'all and yes that was all in fun. I have Neptune in Scorpio in the 4th and I think that is my "good enough or GED in astrology" credentials. Take care.
V/r LionKing:sunny:
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Unread 06-11-2008, 03:46 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
I have heard many theories about the making of an astrologer in the horoscope. I don't want this to turn into a mud-slinging contest about Mercury and Uranus, traditional and modern, but actually I would like to focus on another significator entirely, namely the Astrologer's Degree, as defined by Alan Leo, in "How to Judge a Nativity" (1903).

His assertion was that any planet conjunct the 27° Leo - and less powerfully 27° Aquarius - denoted the reincarnation of an astrologer, and the planet gives a clue as to the mode or character of it.
I'm skeptical. I just checked a few charts of astrologists I respect. Some had planets close to 27 degrees. Some had none. If we throw in asteroids and fixed stars, sooner or later the mathematical probability that something will be at that degree gets pretty high.

This whole discussion assumes belief in reincarnation. I'm comfortable with that. It seems logical to me to assume that anyone with a huge talent in any area is probably not honing that talent for the first time.

Can that be seen in charts? Good question.

Gaer
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Unread 06-11-2008, 03:57 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by LionKing
I guess I ain't good enough. My Sun is 23 degrees Leo! Sheesh! I guess I'll just quit this and find other things to do. Thanks a lot people I have found my true life calling. I'm not good enough!
(I am LionKing and I do not approve of this message, ha!) Take care ya'all and yes that was all in fun. I have Neptune in Scorpio in the 4th and I think that is my "good enough or GED in astrology" credentials. Take care.
V/r LionKing:sunny:
Settle down there Tiger... um, I mean Leo....

Your Contra antiscion for Neptune at 2.18 degrees is ...... drumroll..... 27.42 LEO

TK
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Unread 06-11-2008, 04:06 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

(Yer kidding me... aren't you) That is where Neptune is in the Scorpio in the 4th. It is 2 degrees. Freaks me out. V/r LionKing
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Unread 06-11-2008, 04:34 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Well WinterSprite, you are correct. I never looked at it like that before. My hat is off to you.:68: Very good!!! V/r LionKing
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Unread 06-11-2008, 06:19 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

That's an interesting concept, and wonder if Alan Leo's opinion has to do with the mutual dialogue between aquarius's uranus/saturn co-rulership and the sun/expression with that saturn in leo.
I have venus/pallas at 27/28 aquarius respectively, moon 28 gemini, saturn in leo but not at the 27th degree, jupiter at 27 scorpio.
My son is a leo who's 20, mars at 27 leo, sun at 25, venus and mercury at 23 degrees leo.
Yeah. I'm a professional astrologer also an early aries and my son doesn't give two hoots 'bout the subject. But that's alright.
I agree I too sometimes feel Alan's mars/saturn in his writing, he's quite skillful in small doses.
Sure there's a place for such painstaking dissection, but more often than not, can get the same info with a glance at a chart.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 06:32 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

I'm not a professional astrologery. But I know that I pick it up pretty quick as I have other things in my life. I guess that comes from the Virgo aspects I have in that I have this analytical mind.
I put astrology away for about 20 years and didn't do anything with it. Unitil the beginning of this year. And that is another story. But about three weeks ago, my mother said that there was an Amber Alert in Indiana. She told me the place and time. I did a chart for the heck of it. From what I saw the child would be returned very soon as will the one who took her and I also knew which direction he went. It happened just as I called it. My mother afterwards thought I should be a professional astrologer. I told her that I thought of it, but I have a lot more to learn as of yet. V/r LionKing
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Unread 06-11-2008, 07:00 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Alan Leo's Saturnine style can be well be explained by the presence of Saturn on the ASC (also at 27 Leo).

As for the 27 degree of Leo, I come to think it's more like a secondary influence, which points out a specific (but also limited) use of astrology in native's life. It possibly doesn't specifically highlight astrologers, but rather encounters with astrology in one's life.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 02:14 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Quote:
Originally Posted by wintersprite1
the Forum's chart POF is 26°57’46" Leo .... I'd say that's close enough!
Now that's just crazy! But as always with these things, totally unremarkable at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaer
I'm skeptical. I just checked a few charts of astrologists I respect. Some had planets close to 27 degrees. Some had none.
I don't think Alan Leo meant to suggest that it was the only significator, just that when it was found it usually signified a leaning to astrology and certainly some measure of innate skill if that leaning were to be capitalised upon. I am going to have to find the source now, might take a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LionKing
I put astrology away for about 20 years and didn't do anything with it. Unitil the beginning of this year.
That is interesting, any particular arcs or transits to that Neptune at the same time?
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Unread 06-11-2008, 03:18 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

I don't know if anyone uses Kepler, but there is a 1,000 asteroids list in there, so you're bound to get a hit

I just looked at that and discovered that I have Isis at 27° Aquarius, in exact opp. to my Jupiter in Leo. How very strange, I gave my daughter the middle name Isis. Anyone have any clue at all what Isis is about in astrology; I realise it is a minor asteroid, but I have heard of it?

Apparently there is an asteroid called beer.
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Unread 06-11-2008, 03:44 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Something that has stuck in my mind that Alan Leo has said:
(approximate quote) "In a contest between saturn and uranus, uranus always wins".
In the myth, didn't saturn castrate uranus and toss his nuts into the sea (from such charming image came the birth of venus).
It would be fantastic if uranus (the wildman) bested saturn, being personally partial to that concept, but in my experience freedom (uranus) comes only through discipline (saturn).
Also I've heard it said (and experienced) saturn in oppo to uranus (both my parents have that aspect) is a "pain in the ***" aspect in natal charts where 'ya just can't win with reason.
Since that opposition is coming up in spades this fall it sure is relevent to us as a collective and for the world.
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Unread 06-15-2008, 11:10 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Interesting about the theme of Saturn and Uranus. I have been researching this some more and have found a second source other than Alan Leo:

Charles Carter - Encyclopedia of Psychological Astrology

"The special zodiacal areas associated with Astrology are beyond question those around 27° Leo-Aquarius and 11° Virgo-Pisces."

Carter actually argues against Uranus ruling astrology, and claims a stronger connection with Saturn. In either case we now have a second astrologer's axis to consider: anyone have anything on the 11° Virgo/Pisces axis?
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Unread 06-15-2008, 11:49 AM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Yep Saturn 11 degrees Virgo on the asc. I have Mars around the 27 degree's in Aquarius (Mars 29), I have seen Carter go a couple of degrees away when he looks at chart factors. I have more of an interest in astrology rather than profession, I am still in the early stages of learning. Maybe in another 5 years if I am still studying astrology I will rank myself a bit higher . I have enthusiasm in buckets for the subject, professional wise I don't think I will be an astrologer I just like talking about it. Although people born on the same day as me have the same degrees we are not all astrologer's. I think the natal chart itself lends to astrology interest, I personally have always connected my 3rd house Uranus trine Moon/Mercury/South Node (in 7th) and Uranus also trine Jupiter (11th) for my interest in the subject.
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Unread 06-15-2008, 12:19 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Julie, you are spot on, we don't need to give in to causal thinking, to say x=y is binary and only computers are comfortable with that. There is no astrologer=x configuration, however, as we all know "the stars incline, they do not dictate."

So that aside, I have found an original source from Nicholas DeVore "The Encyclopedia of Astrology" (Philosophical Library 1947):

"Several works, symbolical, speculative and statistical, treat of influences presumed to repose in certain individual degrees. Maurice Wemyss in the four volumes of his "Wheel of Life" even introduces some hypothetical and as yet undiscovered planets to account for certain qualities and effects. It is probable that many of the qualities ascribed to individual degrees have to do with sensitive points created by Eclipses, major conjunctions, or a close conjunction in both longitude and latitude between a solar system body and a fixed star, which points are accented by the transit of another planet at a later date. For ready reference a list of such points is arranged in a zodiacal sequence..."

Thus:
of Virgo 11°....An astrological degree,
and of Leo 25°....Alcoholic (25°-26°);
then of Leo 27° ....astrology (25°-29°).
And of Aquarius 22°: Astrological area (22°-28°).

There is however, no mention of 11° Pisces in his listing though.

I think this clarifies the Aquarian connection and through Aquarius' rulership of Saturn and Uranus, the debate about those planets being configured in the inclination to astrology in general.
Jeremy.
(Astrologer/Drunk)


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Last edited by Jeremy; 06-15-2008 at 12:33 PM.
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Unread 06-15-2008, 01:38 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Jeremy, thanks for presenting a possible excuse for my displacing molecules on this planet (if those theories mean anything).
I have mercury at 11.08 pisces, venus/pallas at 27.45/28 aquarius and am considered a professional astrologer.
My son has his sun at 25 leo, mars at 27 leo, and is twenty...up to now has no attraction to alcohol or drugs though.
Ha!Ha!Ha! A certain amount of drunken creativity is kind of humanizing and romantic, don'tcha think?
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Unread 06-15-2008, 01:45 PM
Julie Julie is offline
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Hi Jeremy

I am not saying the degrees have no relevance, I have looked at them myself in my own chart and in my partner's, and I agree wholeheartedly with what your saying. My partner used to drink heavily, and he has Mercury at 25 Leo, I posted the study on another thread it was an alcoholic study on astrodatabank (you will have to check it out if you haven't already, it was really interesting) it listed Carter's astrological theory on the chart significators for alcoholics. I bought his astrological encyclopedia because of the study. Astrodatabank on any study seem to like to count up factors in the chart. The more astrology factors you have the more you are likely to be susceptible to alcohol/violence/being an astrologer etc (or whatever the astrological study may be). Degrees where included in the study as well, they can have relevance included with astrology placements. The overall astrological picture was tallied up and the alcoholics should score higher than the control group.

I compared my partner's chart to the alcoholic study and he scored high. Although I fell into a little doubt with astrology as I found out my partner had given me the wrong birth time . But luckily he still scored high anyway with his newly changed chart, I compared the score to mine as I am not an alcoholic but I have more Neptune in my chart than my partner so the test was pretty good, as my partner still scored higher for drinking (I think the extra points did come in for his degrees and some fire placements). I am sure astrodatabank did an astrology study will have to double check. The more you look into degrees you start finding you have other degrees like the murderer's degree . And this may also have relevance used with other chart placements etc, like aspects, and maybe midpoints as well.

I also agree that the Saturn rulership was probably due to it's rulership over Aquarius. Which I never thought of before, so your comment does clarify in my mind why Saturn is related to astrology, and then when Uranus was discovered it became the modern ruler to Aquarius. Two rulers for Aquarius.

P.S I posted the whole Carter astrology indicators, somewhere in this forum. Although it may take a while to dig up. I posted it quite a while ago, I will have a look for it and post it here.

Last edited by Julie; 06-15-2008 at 01:51 PM.
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Unread 06-15-2008, 02:03 PM
Julie Julie is offline
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

The post's were not that hard to find (but embarrassing when you read your old posts back, I rabbit on (my posts under old name Shining Ray) I need to learn not to talk about 20 different things on one astrological topic .

Alcoholic Thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ghlight=carter

Astrology Thread

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ghlight=carter

Ha ha it looks funny in the alcoholic thread archergirl asking where a Moderator is, she is now a Moderator. Although she was moderating us back then. Practicing for her future role. (Smile)


Last edited by Julie; 06-15-2008 at 02:22 PM.
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  #24  
Unread 06-15-2008, 02:24 PM
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Oy! A murderer's degree? ...and what prithee tell what degree(s) doth it stain?
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Unread 06-15-2008, 02:32 PM
Julie Julie is offline
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Re: The Astrologer's Degree

Astrodatabank study, I didn't fare too well in this for astrology.

http://www.astrodatabank.com/AS/ASAs...strologers.htm

The murderer degree - 18-19 Aries/Libra



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