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  #51  
Unread 06-16-2008, 06:36 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th
.. I put most of the blame on that Capricrone Moon (a fallen location already prone to gloom) reflecting fiery (squares), destructive charges off of that Mars opposite Pluto. I have also found earthy signs tend to have a certain morbid touch to them which can further exacerbate negativity in the chart
Agree with you that a Capricorn Moon is more prone to melancholy than say a Leo-Moon. But Cap-Moon, or Moon in an earth sign, also means more loyal and stable feelings/ emotions. These are the just the 2 sides of a coin, and it's up to the native to live out the positive or the negative . Hey, I also have a Cap Moon, and now that we are discussing this in so much detail, I will let you know that my Cap-Moon is quite badly afflicted. It is squared by Pluto, opposed by Saturn (so there's the double Capricorn touch), and is also in conj to Mars. Now I can't change this, but can teach myself to change this weakness into a strength by living out more the Moon-Venus sextile side in my chart. My hating my Moon or myself won't help me in the least, but concentrating on the positives in my chart will give me joy and make me more optimistic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th
I'm serious about not being able to have fun. The only thing that ever excited me (in a good way) was skiing in France, but that's really too expensive for me and again, I just hate me
Well, I think you are on the right track - you have discovered what you like and this activity might be expensive right now, but what the heck, it doesn't have to be this way for the rest of your life, and hey, skiing is not like going into space. And surely if I were to lock myself up in a room and gape at the walls, then how can I expect to have fun. I mean chanting the mantra - 'I can not have fun' is certainly no remedy - so again Nate - make use of your 5th house planets- concentrate on those and let the Leo side of it rollick you . Perhaps this is your Karma - learning to be more relaxed in life and taking it easy

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Last edited by aquarius7000; 06-16-2008 at 07:11 PM.
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  #52  
Unread 06-16-2008, 06:49 PM
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Re: suicide

Interesting. My wife has Capricorn Moon, t-squared by Ve conj. Ur opposing Chiron and she has never been depressed in her life. Pragmatic, taciturn perhaps, quite tough emotionally (actually very tough emotionally) but never in a million years depressed.
I agree with Aq7k on this one, depression doesn't seem to me to be a Capricorn Moon quality, Cap. would never want to be prone to such weakness, for water signs the emotions are much more fraught.
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  #53  
Unread 06-16-2008, 07:25 PM
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Re: suicide

I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.
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  #54  
Unread 06-16-2008, 07:52 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgo
I have a Moon in Cap. and I can tell you that I was a very happy child growing up. However, certain events a few years ago propelled me into a severe depression with suicidal ideation. I don't think I'll ever be the same again because of it. So, I tend to believe there is something to all of this.
I would say your Neptune rising square Saturn in worrisome Virgo has much more potential relevance in depression related problems than Moon in Capricorn.
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  #55  
Unread 06-16-2008, 08:00 PM
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Re: suicide

Surely there are exceptions to every rule in astrology, and I found Uranus and Aquarius influences somewhat contraindicatory to depression, because it gives the ability to "disconnect" emotionally. Also the problems with Capricorn seem to come up when the person is not working at some goal, not trying to climb some mountain. My Pluto influences and 12th / 8th house combos make me spiritually question everything, so I cannot go work at some supermarket chain just to get myself busy, because the fake-feeling it gives me just depresses me further.

I know Air signs often have the ability to use intellectual ideation to change any negative focus, I see my Gemini mom doing it and she's often tries to sell it to me, but my negativity is too consolidated and I just despise life. I hate having to work hard at everything and not being able to feel any enjoyment (taurus thing). Neither can I fake enjoyment, as much as relatives and friends wish me to.....
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  #56  
Unread 06-16-2008, 08:54 PM
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Re: suicide

I am not a big fan of rules in astrology, but of course they do exist. To say that planet A in sign B = effect C though is overly deterministic. I would say that very often, people who read their own charts, the same as people who read their own tarot are going to be prone to reaching the conclusions that suit their subjective deductions.

Personally, I look at my own astrology in a fairly abstract way, if I want a properly objective opinion I ask one of the astrologers here who I trust to give me their view, I have asked for help from Gaer, Starlink and EJ53 to name but a few and I have found in all cases that they provided insights to an issue which I really could not see very clearly.

What I will say about Moon in Capricorn is that it works toward stability, toward practical goals that fulfill emotional objectives, that makes sure that the environment is supportive. I honestly cannot say that it is associated with depression unless you perhaps bracket a dry, dour, undemonstrative demeanour into the same diagnostic criteria.

I would say that the Moon does nothing consistently, so if you are consistently unable to find the joy in life then look to Saturn, an afflicted Jupiter, slow and difficult transiting conditions, perhaps by Solar Arc or secondary progression.

In the case cited above, I would consider Neptune in Sagittarius to give a real yearning for the far-off and profoundly prophetic, it diffuses the already expanding domain of Jupiter, so it is a highly contemplative, spiritual and philosophical placement that rising personalises and creates a need to express that very delicate and refined feeling, but in square to Saturn in Virgo, which demands almost the opposite, a fussy, pedantic, nit-picking quality that in the 9th directly contradicts the dreamy expansiveness of Neptune; that creates a real drag on the primary mode of self-expression, weighs down the spirit with self-criticism, creates a struggle between idealism and materialism, and the worrying nature of Saturn would really depress the spirit denoted by Neptune.

And what is depression astrologically? Is it to do with the emotions or the spirit? In my own experience of it, true depression is like an existentialist angst, not a functional, immediate, fluctuation. Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn. Furthermore, I am not ruling out the possibility that Moon in Capricorn can be configured in a case of depression; I am only saing that in my experience, Moon in Capricorn does not incline to depression in the clinical sense.
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  #57  
Unread 06-16-2008, 09:17 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
I'd hang myself but I hate myself so much I want me to suffer
I guess pain causes madness
This comment in particular attracted my attention because it reflects an attitude that I myself once had. Therefore, perhaps it would be pertinent to explore what aspects could incline one to be particularly prone to self-criticism, and in extreme cases, self-hatred. I'm a bit biased in this regard, but I think that afflicted planets in the first house could incline one to have such a self-concept, or perhaps an afflicted first house ruler.

I personally don't believe that anyone is "destined" to commit suicide, although indicators in one's natal chart may provide a disposition that would incline one to take one's own life. Transits and progressions can activate certain planets at certain times and exacerbate self-destructive thoughts and behaviors that may ultimately lead to suicide. I know from personally experience that progressed Moon in Scorpio is extremely difficult; a series of unfortunate events began point shortly after my progressed Moon entered Scorpio, and things only got worse when the progressed Moon entered my eighth house and conjunct my natal Pluto. I'm sure there are other indicators, but I'd check your progressions in particular because they tend to indicate changes in one's internal environment while transits tend to indicate events that occur in the physical world.

EDIT: I found Nate's chart, and the first thing I noticed was that he has a lot of quincunx aspects in his natal chart and various planets in his Taurus stellium form the apex of a giant yod configuration. Depending upon which planets you consider, the apex planet can be Mars, Mercury, or the Sun. That stellium is under a considerable amount of pressure because these planets also square the nodal axis. I'd research yods and see what you find; I haven't discovered any link to suicide yet, but I have noticed that yod configurations can incline one towards obsessive-compulsive behavior. I need to study more charts to ascertain this, however.

Your natal Saturn is placed strongly by sign; Saturn is exalted in Libra. You are fortunate, however, that Venus is located in Taurus, the sign of its rulership. Venus very well may be the final dispositor of your chart...

Quote:
Well, I have read almost everywhere that hards aspects involving Saturn esp with Moon or Venus, or predominance of planets (esp personal planets) in Capricorn incline the native more towards depression and/or pessimism.
Thanks for this link, aquarius7000! Again, I can attest to this from personal experience because my natal Moon is loosely square my Saturn-Neptune conjunction, and this conjunction tightly squares my natal Sun-Venus-Mercury conjunction. Fortunately, I am not as inclined towards depression and pessimism as I once was, although I am still inclined to be rather self-critical and unforgiving of mistakes. I'm wondering if my generation may be particularly vulnerable due to the outer-planet stellium in Capricorn and Pluto in Scorpio.

What year were you born, Nate?

Quote:
Now it may be that a Moon placement at 14 degrees Capricorn may incline to suicidal thoughts, but that is true of any placement at 14 degrees of the Cardinal signs, so it is not unique to Capricorn.
Planets at 14 degrees in the cardinal signs incline one towards suicidal thoughts?

Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree? Is there an "orb"? My natal Saturn is located at 13 Capricorn 41, which is almost fourteen degrees, and my natal Sun/Venus/Mercury conjunction spans 15 Aries 36 to 16 Aries 30. Obviously, I've never committed suicide, but I'm curious if planets located in these degrees could incline one towards suicidal thoughts...

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Last edited by Arian Maverick; 06-16-2008 at 09:37 PM.
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  #58  
Unread 06-16-2008, 09:23 PM
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Re: suicide

There's an often cited rule of threes - if you have three indications of the same effect, the effect will be significant enough in the personality. I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house. Then four (!) personal planets in the 12th house can also be considered. I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets (sun, moon, mercury, venus, mars) Btw I also read tarot for myself works like a charm!

Hi Arian Maverick, I also do not believe people are destined to anything. I don't believe the planets influence us, but instead reflect us. I was born in 1981... my chart is in this thread somewhere

Aquarius7000 what house is your Moon in?
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  #59  
Unread 06-16-2008, 09:29 PM
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Re: suicide

I don't think anybody has stated on this thread that mere placement of any planet in Capricorn would incline the person to 'suicidal' thoughts, and 'such' thoughts certainly cannot be equated to pessimism or depression.

Astrology by itself is quite a debated subject, yet one has to go by certain parameters, or generalisations, or even theories in order to be able to discuss or debate a topic.

Just like the more or less established rule that Moon does nothing consistently, it is quite well known that the weaker side of the taciturn, stable and tough Capricorn can be severity, pessimism or also depression. Every sign has certain traits associated to itself, and these traits include both strengths and weaknesses, which get activated by certain natal aspects, and then again by specific transits.
Again hardly anyone would say that having one's Sun or Mer alone in the astrological sign of Capricorn would make the native depressive, it's always a play of many hard aspects that might make the native's mind 'more' or 'more easily' inclined to such dire thoughts.

Also people who might read their own charts or those of their family members might have certain ready factors that could come close to ascertaining theories found in astrology books and articles, or these people might also be more inclined to refute those theories for whatever reasons.

This is an Astrology and Psychology thread, where we are using our knowledge of astrology more or less as the basis to understand certain behaviours or thought types.
At the end of the day, everybody should be able to share his/her thoughts, opinions, and even experiences!

Cheers
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  #60  
Unread 06-16-2008, 09:36 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arian Maverick
Is it only the fourteenth degree, or can planets be located in the thirteenth, fifteenth, or sixteenth degree?
According to Ebertin, just the 14 degree point. I did not mean to worry you of course, there would need to be other factors I would say. Please don't be alarmed on my account AM, there are diffiuclt health issues at almost every degree based upon this sytem; it is a psychic predisposition that creates a problem of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nate
I take the Moon being in Capricorn, being square to Pluto and being in the 8th house.
I think you are slightly misapprehending my point. I did not for one minute want to disprove your depression; I only wanted to say that Moon in Capricorn on its own does not predispose to depression. Moon in any sign square Pluto in the 8th gives a very Scorpio cast to the emotions.

Quote:
I do not believe in going after the transpersonal planets' influence unless they are aspecting personal planets
I quoted the case of Neptune rising, which I am sure any astrologer would agree personalises its effect whether or not it is aspected to inner planets.
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Last edited by Jeremy; 06-16-2008 at 09:41 PM.
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  #61  
Unread 06-16-2008, 09:41 PM
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Re: suicide

Hi AM - good to meet you again

Hi Nate - my Moon is in 5
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  #62  
Unread 06-16-2008, 10:13 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
I only wanted to say that Moon in Capricorn on its own does not predispose to depression. Moon in any sign square Pluto in the 8th gives a very Scorpio cast to the emotions.
Yes, I see it the same way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
I quoted the case of Neptune rising, which I am sure any astrologer would agree personalises its effect whether or not it is aspected to inner planets.
Definitely a conjunction with the ascendant or midheaven would be very significant.... Neptune on the ascendant can exacerbate a difficult chart as it can potentially defocus the native's life and send him inwardly
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  #63  
Unread 06-17-2008, 10:44 PM
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Re: suicide

Actually, I'm less depressed in the last few months. I have a project I have undertaken which keeps me interested and gives me some credits that my moon likes. It also brings money that my sun likes I've been on my way to the house of Hades before this thing came together - and at the very last gasping moments I might add. Now it is somewhat bearable, but the fundamental tensions are still there, waiting for the next eruption.
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  #64  
Unread 06-26-2008, 08:48 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nate of the 12th
Actually, I'm less depressed in the last few months. I have a project I have undertaken which keeps me interested and gives me some credits that my moon likes. It also brings money that my sun likes I've been on my way to the house of Hades before this thing came together - and at the very last gasping moments I might add. Now it is somewhat bearable, but the fundamental tensions are still there, waiting for the next eruption.
I have to agree with Nate about the 12th house.

I am only 20 and i have felt like taking my own life. When problems arise, the thought flashes across my mind and i quickly dismiss them. I think i may have the dispositions as well.

12th house jupiter and moon. Neptune retro in 8th. Jupiter trine Neptune.

What more could i ask for?
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  #65  
Unread 06-26-2008, 10:00 PM
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Smile Re: suicide

Hi Star,

Jup in 12 is also considered a 'guardian-angel' aspect, and you will find this aspect in most celebrity charts for e.g. Also your Jupiter is not in any major hard aspects to other planets in the chart. You also have Venus (planet of small fortune) as the ruler of your chart, in trine to your Asc, and close to your Sun, which means natural good fortune.

Neptune, though basically unafflicted, forms a square to Mer, which might result in some confusion of thought. But this is no insurmountable problem. An 'airy' Mer lends the native an intelligent & progressive thought-process (so just do away with those silly thoughts). You also also have no Pluto problems like many others, which is a big thing, believe you me.

Okay Moon in 12 might make the native a bit withdrawn in his own shell, even lonesome and depressed at times, but again your Moon is unafflicted. And most of the times, it's only matter of what and how you use the energies of a planet in combination to those of the house its placed in for, so it's better to synergise the sensitive Moon to the deep and spiritual energies of house 12 - no house is bad! In fact, people with Nep on 12, and Moon in 12 (such as you), can take it far with spirituality or would do well in social service, as they are full of compassion and empathy.
Also, you have a Grand Trine in your chart again beautifully aspecting Venus to MC and Asc, which also brings luck and good fortune, so cheer up, cause I see no major hassles at all in your chart.

aquarius7000
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Last edited by aquarius7000; 06-26-2008 at 11:14 PM.
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  #66  
Unread 06-26-2008, 11:13 PM
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Re: suicide

I know from personal experience that it's difficult to have a stellium of inner planets square two outer planets, and these planets are conjunct the sixth and eighth house cusps--two houses that are considered difficult perhaps due to the fact that they don't form any major aspects to the Ascendant.

This doesn't "doom" you, though, or even necessarily make you inclined toward suicide, but the outer planets in the eighth house may give you an intuitive sense that "death" is transformation. However, "death" does not have to be a death of the physical body--perhaps it can be death of the ego, death of desire, etc.

This is just a thought.

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  #67  
Unread 06-27-2008, 01:10 AM
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Re: suicide

I'd be very careful about reading "suicide" in a chart. VERY CAREFUL. After many years of working with charts, and discovering how frequently (when I really listened to the client,) my "mind scenario" needed adjusting, I'm careful even with the easy stuff. Suicide... DON'T GO THERE.
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  #68  
Unread 06-27-2008, 01:21 AM
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Re: suicide

Good point, blueheron.

As the saying goes, "The stars incline; they do not impel." How can one possibly look at a chart and say a native is "destined" for suicide?

With this thought in mind, however, perhaps there would be certain astrological portraits that may incline one to have self-destructive--although not necessarily suicidal--thoughts. I suppose one must also take into consideration why a certain individual may wish to take his or her own life.

If anyone on the forums is contemplating suicide, please get help!

I'm sorry, but I couldn't participate in this thread with a clear conscience without stating this.

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  #69  
Unread 06-27-2008, 01:27 AM
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Re: suicide

I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.
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Unread 06-27-2008, 01:43 AM
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Lightbulb Re: suicide

VERY RIGHT Blueheron!!

It's all very well and all right trying to apply astrology to things like a person being 'over-emotional', or having a 'good sense of humour' and even for predictions to a certain extent, but no serious and responsible astrologer would/should actually go as far as endeavouring to read things like 'sexual orientation' of a person or 'suicide', or trying to predict death out of a chart. It's not only absurd and obnoxious, but, as you aptly said Blueheron, it is dangerous.

Sorry, if anyone is inclined to take this as an overreaction, but I think it's necessary to have added a post with this content to this thread as well.

Best wishes
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Last edited by aquarius7000; 06-27-2008 at 02:01 AM.
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Unread 06-27-2008, 10:21 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by star2858
I have to agree with Nate about the 12th house.

I am only 20 and i have felt like taking my own life. When problems arise, the thought flashes across my mind and i quickly dismiss them. I think i may have the dispositions as well.
I have observed emotional issues with Aries Moon, it seems to have dramatic inclinations and feels things very intensely. It is even more sensitized by that Neptune square and the 12th house. My mom also has an Aries Moon, in the 8th house with all sorts of quincunxes, and she did have a serious nervous breakdown in the past, but now she manages to use her Gemini sun to alter her perceptions in a positive way. I've noticed that the earth signs on the other hand are more inclined to negative, sometimes morbid thinking, and may in a problematic chart coalesce around it. I've found a lot of Tauruses on support forums I used to hang around.

I did read about a research that found that 9% of the earth's population had some thoughts about suicide. Another research found that 16% of high school students had these thoughts (meaning it's on the rise). It kinda put things into proportions to me, and make me hope that at some point society will not be able to ignore all this pain anymore and make some fundamental changes instead of trying to feed us pills like we're some diseased freaks, and not a product of society itself.
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Unread 06-28-2008, 02:34 AM
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Re: suicide

Yesterday, June 26/08, my uncle by marriage committed suicide. From what I know, there had been no signs, no depression. There was no note. He was a farmer and a pillar of the church. My aunt, my dad's sister, found him in the barn. He had hung himself.
Everyone is saying, "what the 'h-e-double hockey sticks' happened?" I have found Arian M's postings here, and the article, especially helpful, as the guy's transits didn't seem to be a big deal.

After I heard, I got out my ephemeris and checked his chart and the aunt's (this was her 2nd unsuccessful marriage) and the uncle's sister (who'd also had a 2nd, extremely unhappy marriage, to my Dad.) The sister and the deceased had some kind of strange relationship where they called each other constantly and sort of co-existed as one.
The late uncle was a Pisces Sun, born, I believe March 7/46, the wife Aug 19/36 and the sister Oct. 10, 1940.
Mercury (decision-making faculty?) seemed to be playing a role for the uncle on the day he decided to check out. Transiting Mercury was broadly square his Sun also conjuncted his Uranus. Transiting Moon was probably conjunct his natal Mercury , which is natally opposed by Neptune. Tr. Sun also squared his natal mercury that day, so like I said, Mercury stuff was going on, but aside from that, looked like a pretty good day for him. (Upon further reflection, I note that transiting Jupiter was opposed to his Saturn on the fateful day.)

Back to Arian M's posted article. The author said he found a Saturn/Mars natal chart connection to suicide. That holds true here. The uncle had a natal Saturn Mars conjunction within 3 degrees in Cancer. Mars is square Neptune, but the conjunction is also trine Sun (indicative of a successful attempt?) Arian M's article also mentions Moon and Pluto. The uncle probably had a pretty close natal Pluto square Moon aspect. Arian M. mentioned a neck reference. The uncle's Moon was in Taurus and we all know what that rules.
The wife's transits seemed worse than for the uncle who checked out. She's got tr. Neptune opposing Sun (husband I guess), tr.Mars was conjunct her Sun that day. Tr. Mercury was square her Neptune, and apparently she was clueless till she found him swinging. The wife has a natal T square of Jupiter squaring saturn and also Jupiter squaring neptune, mercury and Venus. She also has Mars square Uranus! Don't have birthtime chart, but apparently, it's not one conducive to a good marriage, or at least one that ends naturally...

A chart comparison of the late husband and the surviving wife is, to me at least, unsavoury. Her Neptune, Mercury ,Venus and probably Moon opposed his Sun and squared his Jupiter and Uranus and her Uranus conjuncted his Moon and squared his Pluto. Her Mars also squared his Moon and conjuncted his Pluto. To top it all off, her Saturn was conjunct his Sun! Going out on a limb here, I think the relationship was the straw that broke the farmer's back.

The sister's chart had an exact conjunction of transiting Saturn conjunct Venus. Tr. Mars was also square an afflicted natal Uranus. The love of her life was cruelly taken.
We are still left wondering 'why', although I got to say, I'm not one to dwell on the question. My gut feeling is his action was a passive-aggressive (runs in that family, believe me) ****-*** to everybody he left behind. Good luck in the next world uncle. I think you'll need it.

Last edited by universal; 06-28-2008 at 02:10 PM.
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Unread 06-29-2008, 11:55 PM
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey
I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.
I think both sexes can be very emotional. More commonly (and I'm not trying to be stereotypical, but most of the time, this is how things are), women express their emotions, whereas men tend to keep them to themselves.

---

I'd look for a negatively-aspected Moon (Depressive feelings), Mars (violence), Saturn (Pessimism), Uranus (Sudden changes), Neptune (not seeing things how they truly are; could make them see things worse than what the truly are), Pluto (elimination; eruptive change).

Also, the Lord of the Eighth House, if in adverse aspect to many of these planets could indicate suicidal tendencies.

Maybe a crowded Eighth or Twelfth House could support the suicidal tendencies, if any other signs of suicidal tendencies are found in the chart.
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Unread 06-30-2008, 02:34 AM
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Nate of the 12th Nate of the 12th is offline
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Re: suicide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hey
I just want to say-
It's funny how society makes it seems that men are unemotional, yet more men commit suicide than women.
Actually it seems men are more successful in carrying it through. Women make more failed/symbolic attempts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology_of_suicide
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Unread 06-30-2008, 02:55 AM
Otay Otay is offline
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Re: suicide

I've noticed time and again how a family line is 'tainted' just by example of one who commits suicide. It's amazing how just about anything makes it into the genes, whether it be dad playing the mandolin around a birth of one of his children, or does himself in.
Then of course we're getting into nature vs nurture. Someone you look up to doesn't think his child is important enough to stick around for. "What's the use?" the child might say and attempt the same thing dad did later in life. It is a stain on the soul of those that remain. Very terrible thing to do to your children, I've often thought this and have seen what it does to a child's image of themselves. It can destroy them. They might be the future adult who commits suicide after having a child or two of their own. On and on goes the legacy.

Mars/saturn aspects can be rather black & white, do or die, as well as disciplined.

Arian, I've noticed OFTEN how mars/saturn conjunctions are accompanied by venus/jupiter conjunctions.
This seems either quite devoted to a cause of kindness and goodness with action to back it up and build something.
More often it tends to be incredibly simplistic, like the concept of "patriotism".
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