Hellenistic delineations

[tsmall]

I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question (so if it needs to be moved?)

With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about delineating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?

[byjove]

Hi T!

There have actually been many threads on this area I'd say in the last year particularly. But you have come across a good point in that perhaps the info. is a little scattered. So we could take the chance to bring some basics here, in one place, if that's along the lines of what you had in mind? I think this is a perfectly good place - natal astrology!

[JUPITERASC]

So what would you recommend then byjove regarding this question - Preliminary Natal Analysis perhaps?

So, while we're mulling over how to answer the question, you mentioned previous threads on Hellenistic astrology so I searched and I found these two on Sect http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ht=hellenistic and on Profections http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ht=hellenistic and another thread, this time on Zodiacal Releasing http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ht=hellenistic

[dr. farr]

Originally Posted by tsmall

I am not sure if this is the correct place to post this question (so if it needs to be moved?)

With all the current interest in Hellenistic methods, how exactly does one go about deliniating a chart using Hellenistic astrology?

Probably close would be Joseph Crane's book "Astrological Roots: the Hellenistic Legacy", followed by his "Practical Guide to Traditional Astrology", which includes a moderate amount of Hellenistic material.

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by byjove

Hi T!

There have actually been many threads on this area I'd say in the last year particularly. But you have come across a good point in that perhaps the info. is a little scattered. So we could take the chance to bring some basics here, in one place, if that's along the lines of what you had in mind? I think this is a perfectly good place - natal astrology!

Hi! This is actually what I was thinking. I thought it could be fun, and informative, if we looked at a chart and applied Hellenistic techniques, but wasn't sure if anyone else would be interested...

[Moog]

I'm interested.

Can't really offer much in the way of info, I'm a nooob

[byjove]

Well first thing first, is the houses. I suppose we should be very clear here which allows people new to this to catch on without being overwhelmed.

When viewing a natal chart in this system, you use Whole Sign houses. This means that the sign on the ascendant becomes the first 'house'. The ASC is an angle within that house. The second house begins at the next sign, and so on. Each house begins at 0 degrees and finishes at 29.9 degrees.

E.g. Ascendant Pisces of 15 degrees means Pisces is the whole of the first house, Aries is the whole of the second house, the whole of the sign of Taurus is the 3rd house and so on. The natal chart looks clearly divided into 12 segments of 30 degrees each.

The degree of the Pisces ascendant continues to be 15 degrees, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the degree of the ascendant becomes the most sensitive point in each sign thereafter. So 15 degrees Taurus, Gemini etc. Planets conjunct this sensitive degree in any sign have amplified importance, it's stronger.

Continuing with the angles, ascendant 15 degrees Pisces means descendant 15 degrees Virgo, so that's angle 2.

Let's say the native has the IC at 12 degrees Gemini, this is angle 3.

Complete the angles with MC at 12 degrees Sagittarius. The MC at the 12th degree here is the most sensitive point for interpretation of the career. This MC point, or our 4th angle, can be found in a number of different houses at the top of the chart, most commonly 9th house, 10th house or 11th house. Finding the MC point in the 9th or 11th reveals more information about the native's career interests and possibilities. Finding the MC in the 9th often adds an international perspective to career possibilities, but can also mean ideas and beliefs are central to the career they choose. It can also tie in work with institutions associated with the 9th: higher education, religious or legal ones. You add this consideration to the 10th sign and any planets that may be found therein. Likewise you do the same if the MC is in the 11th. If it's found in the 10th, the concentration is in that sign then.

I'm attaching a chart of someone born at 12 noon today. I tried using one of my astro. programs but they take too long, are too complicated and ugly. So astro.com it is. The chart has MANY aspects but the 12 houses can be easily seen for now and that's what matters.

[tsmall]

byjove, are you suggesting maybe making a hand drawn chart to look at? I was hoping we could use an astro chart. I have attached a new one. (in tropical, though I believe the jury is still out on what zodiac the Hellenists were using...)

I also believe that using this method, aspects can be made by sign position alone? Does anyone know if there is in fact an orb of influence?

edit to add: we seem to have had the same idea, lol. I think it would be important to keep the "outers" out of it, so to speak?

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

byjove, are you suggesting maybe making a hand drawn chart to look at? I was hoping we could use an astro chart. I have attached a new one. (in tropical, though I believe the jury is still out on what zodiac the Hellenists were using...)

I also believe that using this method, aspects can be made by sign position alone? Does anyone know if there is in fact an orb of influence?

edit to add: we seem to have had the same idea, lol. I think it would be important to keep the "outers" out of it, so to speak?

thanks for the reminder on the 'outers' being 'out' tsmall, as I think we can all agree that it is safe to say that two thousand plus years ago there were no delineations for 'the outers' in astrology.

(a) Aspects are made by Sign alone - so any planets in the same house are also in the same Sign

(b) however, a distinction is made for planets that are within 3º orb of an aspect

(c) the aspects are conjunction, square, opposition, trine, semi-sextile. Note is taken of Disjunction - ie planets 150º apart

Adding to byjove's clarification of Whole Sign House Borders in relation to Whole Sign House Sensitive Points, any planetary ingress into a sign is an important consideration:

e.g. when any planet completes a transit of byjove's hypothetical ascendant Sign Pisces - from 0ºPisces to 29.9ºPisces - then that planet is ingressing (using byjove's foregoing example) the hypothetical Whole Sign 2nd house at 0º Aries: thus in Whole Signs, any planetary ingress into a Sign is also an ingress into a House.

[MSO]

So the difference between newspaper astrology and Hellenistic astrology is using whole signs and not using the outers?

Surely there's a bit more to it than that. The vapours have always been my favorite part of traditional astrological philosophy. *nods*

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by MSO

So the difference between newspaper astrology and Hellenistic astrology is using whole signs and not using the outers?

Surely there's a bit more to it than that. The vapours have always been my favorite part of traditional astrological philosophy. *nods*

You're right MSO - There is "a bit more to it than that"

[tsmall]

I am assuming that the place to start would be by delineating each planet and the ASC, MC, IC and DC (as well as PoF and nodes) by sign position, as well as by degree. Would we need to look at a Porphyry at well to determine planetary strength? What "diginities" do we look at?

(btw, this chart is for someone not related to me, but whom I know very well, so we are looking at a real person.)

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

I am assuming that the place to start would be by delineating each planet and the ASC, MC, IC and DC (as well as PoF and nodes) by sign position, as well as by degree. Would we need to look at a Porphyry at well to determine planetary strength? What "diginities" do we look at?

(btw, this chart is for someone not related to me, but whom I know very well, so we are looking at a real person.)

tsmall, I assumed that as well until I discovered that Robert Schmidt describes something he terms "Preliminary natal analysis" which consists not only of judging whether:

(a) a planet is able and/or planets are able - and/or unable - to conduct their business and/or businesses, as well as

(b) whether the natal planets are favorable or unfavorable to the native.

I discovered this in 2007 on an internet forum that is no longer accessible when one attempts to login

However there are other online sources of hellenistic information, such as http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/ as well as forums - eg skyscript, tribenet and ACTastrology (which has a forum moderated by Schmidt himself) http://actastrology.com/viewforum.ph...a9a780ffaefcef

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

tsmall, I assumed that as well until I discovered that Robert Schmidt describes something he terms "Preliminary natal analysis" which consists not only of judging whether:

(a) a planet is able and/or planets are able - and/or unable - to conduct their business and/or businesses, as well as

(b) whether the natal planets are favorable or unfavorable to the native.

I discovered this in 2007 on an internet forum that is no longer accessible when one attempts to login

However there are other online sources of hellenistic information, such as http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/ as well as forums - eg skyscript, tribenet and ACTastrology (which has a forum moderated by Schmidt himself) http://actastrology.com/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=ccfb9e07cf3c1c2d55a9a780ffae fcef

Assumed which? That it would be necessary to start by looking at each planet, or that one would need a quadrant based chart in order to understand strength?

Thank you for the links.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

I am assuming that the place to start would be by delineating each planet and the ASC, MC, IC and DC (as well as PoF and nodes) by sign position, as well as by degree. Would we need to look at a Porphyry at well to determine planetary strength? What "diginities" do we look at?
(btw, this chart is for someone not related to me, but whom I know very well, so we are looking at a real person.)

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

tsmall, I assumed that as well until I discovered that Robert Schmidt describes something he terms "Preliminary natal analysis" which consists not only of judging whether:

Originally Posted by tsmall

Assumed which? That it would be necessary to start by looking at each planet, or that one would need a quadrant based chart in order to understand strength? Thank you for the links.

I have a little knowledge of Traditional Astrology which delineates amongst other considerations, by checking each individual planet by Sign as well as degree, as well as PoF, the four angles of the natal chart and therefore - until I discovered that internet forum in 2007, I assumed that Hellenistic astrology begins by doing that. However, I learned that Hellenistic astrology differs by analyzing a natal chart in a way that takes some getting used to as it is a complex procedure and based to a considerable extent on an individual astrologer's personal judgement


To quote Schmidt then:



"Some preliminary orientation for those unfamiliar with this technique. The first book of a lost writing by the Hellenistic astrologer Antiochus concluded with algorithms for determining two ruling planets in a nativity: the domicile master (oikodespotēs) of the nativity (the planet that takes the entire nativity as its home in the same manner that planets take certain images or “signs” as their domicile), and the lord (kurios) of the nativity. We know this from a Byzantine summary of this lost work and from extracts made from it by Porphyry.

[deleted quote over 100 words in one post - Moderator]

[tsmall]

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

I have a little knowledge of Traditional Astrology which delineates amongst other considerations, by checking each individual planet by Sign as well as degree, as well as PoF, the four angles of the natal chart and therefore - until I discovered that internet forum in 2007, I assumed that Hellenistic astrology begins by doing that. However, I learned that Hellenistic astrology differs by analyzing a natal chart in a way that takes some getting used to as it is a complex procedure and based to a considerable extent on an individual astrologer's personal judgement

Ah, well, one step at a time then? Especially when working with a "noob?" To start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are. I can see this is going to be a pretty big undertaking...

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

To quote Schmidt then:

Originally Posted by JUPITERASC

"Some preliminary orientation for those unfamiliar with this technique. The first book of a lost writing by the Hellenistic astrologer Antiochus concluded with algorithms for determining two ruling planets in a nativity: the domicile master (oikodespotēs) of the nativity (the planet that takes the entire nativity as its home in the same manner that planets take certain images or “signs” as their domicile), and the lord (kurios) of the nativity. We know this from a Byzantine summary of this lost work and from extracts made from it by Porphyry. [deleted quote over 100 words in one post - Moderator]

Are you able to short-cut this? Otherwise, it could be after Christmas before I can make a thourough study...

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by tsmall

Ah, well, one step at a time then? Especially when working with a "noob?"

One step at a time is a more sensible approach than leaping merrily over a chasm

Originally Posted by tsmall

To start, it appears that we first need to determine the chart sect? As in, whether the sun has precidence (day chart) or the moon (night chart?) In this instance, it would be the moon, as it is a nighttime chart? We then need to look to see which image (sign) houses the moon, and determine the trigon lord? And of course, next would be to explain what exactly trigon lords are. I can see this is going to be a pretty big undertaking..

The following are basics of Hellenistic analysis from Valens as translated by Robert Schmidt

To find conditions relevant to the fitness and/or ability of a planet to conduct its business we would commence with assessing conditions that are relative to the horizon, so:

If a planet is in an angular or succedent Whole Sign house then the planet is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business.
Angular Houses = 1,4,7,10: Succedent Houses = 2,5,8.11

If a planet remains angular when using dynamic house system Porphyry then the planet is said to be 'goaded' towards more activity.

If a planet is in a cadent Whole Sign house, then the planet is in a place that is not conducive to the conduct of its business.
Cadent Houses = 3,6,9,12

If a benefic planet is in a cadent house, the beneficence of the planet is turned away from the native (or native’s agenda).

If a malefic planet is in a cadent house, the malevolence of the planet is turned away from the native (or the native's agenda).

Originally Posted by tsmall

Are you able to short-cut this? Otherwise, it could be after Christmas before I can make a thourough study...

Astrologers seem to have had more time available to them two thousand plus years ago... how fortunate they were!

Unfortunately however they lacked computers, so to send and receive messages took weeks, months, if not years, so on balance since we have an online forum, we are in a sense, fortunate! Good also that neither of us has to chisel ancient hieroglyphics onto stone. Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year

There is software that does all the donkey work available from astrology x files (Curtis Manwaring) http://www.zodiac-x-files.com/ and Rumen Kolev (one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology who also just happens to be a software programmer) has this extraordinary product on offer http://alabe.com/placidus.html

The next step according to Schmidt if anyone is interested is:

"The proposed algorithms for both of these ruling planets are not without their interpretive difficulties, although the determination of the lord of the nativity is stated in the Porphyry text itself to be especially difficult. The determination of the domicile master of the nativity is based on a predomination (epikratēsis) argument—that is, we first have to determine which of the two lights is better positioned in the nativity according to several specified criteria. The domicile master of the nativity is then taken as the domicile lord of the image occupied by this light..."

[dr. farr]

One can estimate angularity without a porphyry overlay: in your whole sign chart, find the ascending, MC, descendant and IC degrees (not the houses, but the degrees): any planet 15 degrees before or after of the specific degree is angular (relative to the horizon/horizon MC/IC axes); a planet within 15 degrees flowing toward the specific degree is "more angular" ("stronger" relative to angularity) than the planet flowing away from the specific degree (alhtough still within 15 degrees of that specific degree) These considerations are seperate from the whole sign house placements and center only upon the consideration of planetary strength relative to angularity.

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

One can estimate angularity without a porphyry overlay: in your whole sign chart, find the ascending, MC, descendant and IC degrees (not the houses, but the degrees): any planet 15 degrees before or after of the specific degree is angular (relative to the horizon/horizon MC/IC axes); a planet within 15 degrees flowing toward the specific degree is "more angular" ("stronger" relative to angularity) than the planet flowing away from the specific degree (alhtough still within 15 degrees of that specific degree) These considerations are seperate from the whole sign house placements and center only upon the consideration of planetary strength relative to angularity.

dr. farr, I am interested to ask you who originated this way of estimating angularity without a porphyry overlay and in what way does this method of estimating angularity differ from porphyry as well as is this a method used by any astrologers two thousand years ago?

[dr. farr]

For sure it is in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction", and I think I remember it also from Paulus Alexandrianus; I do know that Maternus, Maximus, Paulus did make considerations re to angularity, and there is no mention in their works of trisection of arc (porphyry) restructuring of the chart to accomplish this (of course maybe they did use trisection of arc for this and simply didn't describe it, as Valens and later Rhetorius did describe it, and as Antiochus of Athens referenced it)

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by dr. farr

For sure it is in Abu Mashar's "Great Introduction", and I think I remember it also from Paulus Alexandrianus; I do know that Maternus, Maximus, Paulus did make considerations re to angularity, and there is no mention in their works of trisection of arc (porphyry) restructuring of the chart to accomplish this (of course maybe they did use trisection of arc for this and simply didn't describe it, as Valens and later Rhetorius did describe it, and as Antiochus of Athens referenced it)

Thank you for that clarification dr. farr I appreciate your time spent in answering those questions

[Moog]

Good stuff JUPITERASC, thanks :-)

[JUPITERASC]

Originally Posted by Moog

Good stuff JUPITERASC, thanks :-)

That's OK Moog, glad to contribute - I learned these ideas mostly from Robert Schmidt's translations of Vettius Valens http://www.projecthindsight.com/

Conditions relative to Sun then:

When a planet is in the interval from heliacal rising up to first station or from second station up to the heliacal setting, the planet is capable of appearing and therefore is in a place conducive to the conduct of its business .

The heliacal rising of a star (or other body such as the moon, a planet or a constellation) occurs when it first becomes visible above the eastern horizon for a brief moment just before sunrise, after a period of time when it had not been visible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliacal_rising

When a planet is making a Station and/or phasis, it is not only capable of appearing but is also intensified [Schmidt says that Phasis means “making an appearance” or “sudden dramatic showing of something”. It can also mean “something that speaks” or we can say that it means “an appearance that speaks”].

Phasis describes a planet making a heliacal rising (rising before the sun) (standardized to 15 degrees by Hellenistic astrology) within 7 days before of after native’s birth. Rumen Kolev one of the few living practitioners of Ancient Babylonian Astrology based on his own observations of the skies, states that the 15º standardisation is obviously a variable dependent upon local conditions.

When any planet is “under the sun’s beams” i.e. within 15 ecliptic degrees of the sun, the planet is considered not capable of conducting its business due to being “drained or unempowered”. However, there are modifications to this such as if a planet is in its Exaltation, own terms or own bounds or dignity, then the planet is considered to be “in its own chariot” and therefore “protected and/or shielded” from the potential 'harm' of combustion.

When a planet is in the interval of first station to second station (i.e. retrograde), the planet is not fit to conduct its business because it is described as “walking backwards”.

[JUPITERASC]

FAQ SECT http://www.projecthindsight.com/

To be in Sect, the Sun must be above the horizon
The Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day/diurnal Chart

The Moon in a Night Chart may be in Sect either above or below the horizon

- that's because the Sun determines Diurnal/Nocturnal

(a) The Sun is always in Sect in a Day Chart

(b) The Moon is always in Sect in a Night Chart

ADDITIONAL CONSIDERATIONS

1.) In a diurnal chart you'd want the diurnal planets in the upper hemisphere with the Sun (hayz) as that would be more natural for those planets. The diurnal planets are Sun, Jupiter and Saturn.

If any diurnal planets in a diurnal chart are in the lower hemisphere/below the Ascendant/Descendant axis then although they are in sect, nevertheless they are considered slightly out of sect and more nocturnal in nature (halb).

If the nocturnal planets in a diurnal chart are below the horizon, although they are out of sect they are still in hayz and so more natural - but nocturnal planets that are above the horizon in a diurnal chart are situated contrary to their nature (halb).

2.) In a nocturnal chart you'd want the nocturnal planets in the upper hemisphere away from the Sun (hayz).

Any nocturnal planets in the lower hemisphere in a nocturnal chart are still in sect but are considered slightly out of sect and more diurnal in nature (halb).

If the diurnal planets in a nocturnal chart are below the horizon they are also hayz, so a little more natural but if they are above the horizon they are situated contrary to their nature nature (halb).

Just remember

(a) the Sun alone determines Day and Night.

(b) the Sun can only be above the horizon in a Day Chart

(c) the Moon is always out of Sect when the Sun is above the horizon (Diurnal/Day Chart)

(d) the Moon is always in Sect when the Sun is below the horizon (Nocturnal/Night Chart)

(e) therefore if the Sun is below the horizon it is a Nocturnal/Night Chart and

(f) therefore in a Nocturnal/Night Chart the Moon is in Sect whether above or below the Horizon

diurnal = day
nocturnal = night

(a) when above the horizon the Sun is in the upper hemisphere = Day/diurnal

(b) when below the horizon the Sun is in the lower hemisphere = Night/nocturnal

therefore

(c) the Moon is in Sect in a Night Chart irrespective of hemisphere and/or horizon

Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian

What if somenone has the Sun exactly on the Ascendant? Would their chart be neutral?

This is a question often debated

'Ascendant' is the name given to the Eastern section of the Great Circle of the Horizon

If the Sun were visible on the Eastern Horizon then one would define that as Day

Nevertheless there are a number of definitions for both Sunrise and Sunset - one of which is 'apparent sunrise/sunset' - Due to atmospheric refraction, sunrise occurs shortly before the sun crosses above the horizon. Light from the sun is bent, or refracted, as it enters earth's atmosphere. This effect causes the apparent sunrise to be earlier than the actual sunrise. Similarly, apparent sunset occurs slightly later than actual sunset. However, it should be noted that due to changes in air pressure, relative humidity, and other quantities, no one can predict the exact effects of atmospheric refraction on sunrise and sunset time: this possible error increases with higher latitudes (closer to the poles).

Official times of Sunrise and Sunset may be found on various astronomical websites.

Hellenistic astrology states that the Sun is always in sect in a day/diurnal chart and obviously then out of sect in a night/nocturnal chart
link to an explanation of sect http://horoscopicastrologyblog.com/2...ology-of-sect/

[byjove]

Some great work here, this is a great start for anyone wanting to learn this.

Dr. Farr, on that point of 15 degrees and angularity, I just spotted my Sun is angular in whole sign but about 24 degrees from the MC, so beyond the 15 degrees. I suppose it's a guide, like a noon birth placing the Sun in the 9th or 10th?

At what point in natal analysis does one consider planets 'seen' by the ascendant, signs of equal light and distance etc?