Potentials of jail time or criminal activity in general?

miracles

Member
Hello!

Just curious has anyone ever encountered any signs that show the possibility of someone going to jail?

I have seen certain squares could sometimes indicate this or specific transits in the fourth house. With the placement of pluto, I've found that it indicated the potential of "underworld" type activities.

I could show a chart depicting two separate occasions this has occurred if it helps but I think it would have variations in each person. I have not yet viewed the charts of more famous criminals. I just find it highly fascinating to see how tendencies of this nature are depicted.
 

Frisiangal

Well-known member
8th house is the house of criminality. As you say 'underworld'activity; 9th is the house of justicial law-making, 10th the outer world of enforced law of a civilised society. Their natural rulers, Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto can say much about the intent the individual lives with. and, consequently,
their positive or negative influence in/upon the individual.

I've seen a number of charts of heavily laden Pluto, Scorpio and 8th house people serving in the police force, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Saturn aspects serving in the military, harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects in pathological hardened criminals, and Saturn in 12th for long-term incarceration behind bars.

Criminal charts seem to be a fascination for many, yet they represent only a small section of society. Their charts would appear to be the exception rather than the rule?
 

katydid

Well-known member
I have sometimes seen afflictions to the 12th and/or rulers of the 12th, ending up with native being in jail or halfway house or rehab or forced hospitalization type thing.


My friend's son has been incarcerated many times. He began going to juvie for being truant and out of control, at about 13. He has been arrested for DUI's and stealing and hitting his Dad. He is only 20 and is on the way to real trouble.

He has Mars conjunct Venus in Cancer in the 12th Opposed Neptune in Cap and squaring Moon in Aries in the 9th.

He has the Sun in Virgo in the 2nd. He says he needs money and nice things and cannot work because of his record. So it's not his fault if he steals. :pinched:

I know another example of a much incarcerated person. A close relative that had sudden onset of schizophrenia when he was in college. He has a fascinating chart.

A tight Leo stellium in the 10th:

Venus 23@Leo
Mars 25 @Leo
Sun/Pluto @ 26 Leo

that stellium squares the ASc @ 20 Scorpio

And the Saturn @ 16 Scorpio in the 12th

The Saturn in the 12th squares the Leo malefic stellium and perhaps that is why he was forcibly hospitalized and in jail so often?
 

miracles

Member
Hi thanks for the responses and insight! Glad I'm not the only one who found that interesting.

Katydid - I know someone also who has saturn in the twelfth who has the same experiences except his conjuncts pluto. I've found hard afflictions to saturn usually does mean he will be doing time. But his is usually around the time his sun squares saturn, I mean it could be coincidence but it has occurred this way three times so far, the three times he's been sent to jail in his life.

Frisiangal - I forgot to mention you also noted the saturn in the 12th as well!

So far thats the most common denominator , and yes I agree their charts are the exception.
 
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Kitchy

Banned
I think there are two issues in this question -

Cause and Effect

Consequences

Cause and effect for criminality - disregard for laws, rules, codes of behavior that are socially defined. Neptune, Pluto, Mercury, Venus, Mars interchanges most likely
Consequences - Saturn (12th house is 'retreat' or 'isolation' - a place where one find's "containment" or "confinement" in their chart.
 
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Osamenor

Staff member
8th house is the house of criminality. As you say 'underworld'activity; 9th is the house of justicial law-making, 10th the outer world of enforced law of a civilised society. Their natural rulers, Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto can say much about the intent the individual lives with. and, consequently,
their positive or negative influence in/upon the individual.

I've seen a number of charts of heavily laden Pluto, Scorpio and 8th house people serving in the police force, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Saturn aspects serving in the military, harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects in pathological hardened criminals, and Saturn in 12th for long-term incarceration behind bars.

Hmmm... I have all of those except Saturn in the 12th, and I am neither military nor a cop nor a pathological hardened criminal.

On the subject of jail, what about people who get incarcerated for reasons other than being a criminal? Falsely accused and/or convicted of a crime, say. Or jailed for civil disobedience--technically illegal, but not a crime in the sense of something that harms others.
 

Oddity

Well-known member
That would still be 12th house, usually. The 4th house can sometimes show up, but that's more likely to refer to the prison, hospital, or other institution itself.

I don't think you can do a 'one size fits all' with aspects. You'd need to look at the entire chart.
 

Airisaiia

Member
I found this forum to hopefully get some info on my brother's struggles with the law. He has an interesting chart but I'm struggling with my limited knowledge to sort through it. He has a court appearance on Jan 18th 2017 and we are hoping that he won't be kicked back down again with jail time. He seems to attract harsh judgement and also be quick to defend and seems to always be fighting himself out of a corner. I'm hoping that he can finally get some reprieve and build his life out of being under the harsh penalties of the justice system constantly throwing the book at him and his own inability to get a break and make a shift in the energy. He's had multiple stints in rehab, dui's, minor jail time, arrests for fighting, struggled in schools as a kid and was often misunderstood by especially our parents, religion school authority. His son is his whole world but his ex and him don't get along well and the court nonsense over that situation has been stressful as he is being framed again. Can I post his chart here? I'm new to this forum. Thanks for any ideas.
 

Osamenor

Staff member
Can I post his chart here? I'm new to this forum. Thanks for any ideas.

Only if you have your brother's permission to post his chart. That's the rule. If it's not your own chart and not a celebrity's chart that's publicly available, you need the chart owner's permission to post it.
 

Airisaiia

Member
Thanks. I do have his permission. He is happy to have any help or insight that he can get. It looks like opening the image in a new tab works to bring it up. Thanks so much for any insight from the bottom of my heart.

open
 
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Airisaiia

Member
Ah ok. That image is hosted in my google drive so it wouldn't expire but I'm happy to follow the norm. Here is my brother, we can call him 'B' 's natal chart. He has had lots of run ins with the law, substance issues and seems to always be fighting a battle. Any help understanding why his life has been so difficult for so long and whether his court appearance on 18 Jan 2017 will go badly would be appreciated. We are hoping he can catch a break from the legal system for once and be able to rebuild his life, finish his rehab and contractors license and stay out of jail to raise his son. Thanks very much.
 

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Osamenor

Staff member
A chart with transits would tell us more about what's going on in his life right now, but even that wouldn't tell us how his court date will turn out. At most, we'd know what kind of energies are up for him right now.

Since I'm following current transits, I know off the bat that Saturn is currently transiting your brother's AC and natal Neptune. My thought is that suggests authority (Saturn) being front and center for him right now, which it definitely is if he's about to appear in criminal court.

Saturn can represent civil authority--the long arm of the law--and it can also be about personal authority. Saturn transiting his AC might be speaking to a need to shape up, turn his life around, go straight. If he's in rehab currently, that's something he's doing, and that kind of thing is usually looked on favorably by the courts. I can't say what the results of his court date will be, but based on that information--he's in rehab and trying to turn his life around--it sounds like he has a good chance of a favorable result.

Saturn has just been in his twelfth house for about a year. Was he incarcerated then, or in rehab? Saturn transiting the twelfth might speak to that. Or to great dissatisfaction with his life and feeling the need to make a change. Or both. Saturn went retrograde last year, over the cusp of his twelfth house, so he's had repeated Saturn transits into the twelfth. When Saturn hovers on the cusp of a house like that, its effect is very likely to be felt.

Saturn crossing his ascendant is likely to be linked with his attempts at change bearing fruit. (I'm basing that on some discussions I've had here on this board.) If he's serious about turning his life around, and doing whatever he can to make that happen, Saturn is his ally.

Your description of your brother's life experience--trouble in school, fighting, substance abuse--sounds like he has some neuro-atypicality that may have gone undiagnosed. ADHD, maybe, or bipolar disorder, or a learning disability, or some combination of those. Has he been diagnosed with any of those things? If not, would he fit the diagnosis?

Neptune on his ascendant seems suggestive of that to me. Any planet on the ascendant is especially powerful--with Neptune there, your brother is a very Neptunian person--and Neptune is linked with powerful spirituality, connection to the unseen... and with not fitting in, feeling like you're from another planet, substance abuse, mental disorders, and escapism of every kind. Your brother, being Neptunian, probably has that to contend with. And since it's on his ascendant, it's front and center for him.

Capricorn moon may make him especially prone to feeling misunderstood and isolated. In the first house, again, that's front and center, it's part of how he meets the world. With his life experiences, he probably is misunderstood a lot. The Capricorn moon misunderstood feelings would exacerbate that.
 

Airisaiia

Member
Thank you for this. You have tapped into several things that are spot on about B and his life and last year.

The Saturn and the 12th connection - he had several big situations with legal involved - his ex gf and son's mother, was going after full custody with no visitation because her new bf is a jealous person and to do this she framed a case to bring up everything he's ever done wrong as well as making up some new hypotheticals and that malignment of his character after spending a good year or two turning his life around sent him into a substance relapse as he feared he's lose his son his one ray of sunshine.
Aug-early Nov. 2016

While under the influence and upset that his whole world he's been rebuilding once again was being taken from him he thought he would expose a top drug dealer and confront him for ruining so many lives, it went badly and the police beat him within an inch of his life and tortured him with a hood on that has left him with permanent physical damage. They arrested him and charged him with a huge list of charges which 95% of them he doesn't deserve to cover up their brutality and so the custody hearing is on hold until the criminal charges are sorted out. He has been out on bail ever since just waiting for notice from the courts which has oddly taken months until just now to see the proceedings start. And now he is starting a police brutality case as well. My family helped his ex realise she cannot toy with him in the courts and threaten to take his son away and so she has backed off and allowed him to see his son again and regularly as before. Nov. 2016 - ongoing.

He has had several diagnoses and does do better when he takes his medication regularly. He is bi-polar. But our parents didn't believe in mental illness when we were growing up so it wasn't until as an adult and away from religion that he has had proper care.

I think you are also on to something with the Neptunian connection as he is the most sensitive person with the biggest heart and the biggest defense to protect it. He is also larger than life in energy and incredibly fun to be around. He is also a genius with anything to do with craftsmanship and can see in his mind how something needs to be built and engineered.

Our upbringing was one of extremes with my parents wanting to portray happy perfect pious family to everyone else and my mother will protect her delusional world at all costs. Most of my siblings and I have distanced ourselves from my parents but B has a co-dependent relationship with my them still. They give him money for building them a new porch but then take away his car to cover helping him with legal fees. And they still pressure him religiously and hold that over his head while also never admitting they have had any part in his substance abuse. They will say they won't pay for rehab unless it is a religious rehab and things like that.

He has always been serious about turning his life around but I've never seen anyone with such incredible bad luck. He's been struggling with alcohol since he was 13 to numb the insane religious pressue and I'm sure the bi-polar mental chatter. And he is so often misunderstood which frustrates him. My religious extended family has used him as a whipping boy and escape goat (wow - no capricorn pun intended) since he was a little kid which gave him a deep sense of betrayal from people he truly loved and looked up to.

In situations where any other person would get a slap on the wrist B will get arrested, a huge fine, lose his license and have major health injuries somehow. He also often is taken advantage of. For some reason he always seems to trust the worst kind of people who use him and really leave him worse off.

I'm really hopeful that saturn on his ascendent will help him start to foundationalise his efforts to keep control of his substance abuse and reactions to things. That he can learn to slow down a bit between intake and reaction. In so many ways it is ironic that he is such an incredible builder but cannot seem to build out of the hole in a complete and sustainable way yet.

Any ideas about that Libra stellium? Would that help explain why he is so weighted to such black and white extremes happening to him with the justice issues and perhaps the slower planets there will mean it would take longer and to later in his life to see things balance out?

Thanks
 

Osamenor

Staff member
I've been looking at B's chart off and on for several hours, speculating on what might be involved in his issues. Some thoughts: B's story sounds awfully similar to that of a friend of mine, who is also bipolar and also has had multiple run-ins with the law, including prison time and at least a couple of police brutality incidents. My friend is also very artistic, and a painter. He did a beautiful repaint of a mutual friend's home, although because he's horribly disorganized and doesn't manage finances well, there were lots of issues along the way. He is also an activist. Looking at B's chart, I wonder if he has activist inclinations.

Some chart factors my friend and B have in common: they're both Libras, they both have a sun/Pluto conjunction, and they both have Neptune in Sagittarius. The Neptune and Pluto sign placements are generational-- everyone born in the 1970s or early 80s, except for a few on the cusps, has those placements--but because of the combined meanings of Neptune and Sag, I suspect that there may be a higher rate of bipolar disorder in this generation. (Just a theory, completely untested.)

B's sun isn't closely conjunct Pluto, but since they're in a stellium, I would think they're working together. Pluto being on his MC and in stellium with his sun, and the focal point of a minor grand trine, is a powerhouse. He's not only Neptunian, he's also Plutonian. Having the energies of both Neptune and Pluto so prominent is a lot to handle. I suspect that's why his life seems so out of control and has been so full of extremes. Those are very extreme planets.

I see the artistic builder in his exact sun/Saturn conjunction. Libra is the archetypal artist--artists create beauty and harmony--and Saturn is structure, building.

Here's something else I see, that gives even more weight to Pluto: it squares his nodes, at the north bendings. "At the bendings" is where planets are if they're in square to the nodal axis. A planet at the bendings may be at the north or south bendings. If it comes after the north node and before the south node, if you're following the signs in order from Aries to Pisces, it's at the north bendings. If it's after the south node and before the north node, it's at the south bendings. Planets at the north bendings have an especially strong manifestation in the material world. Their meanings will show up again and again, very strongly, in the life of the native.

From an evolutionary astrology perspective, any planet in square to the nodes, from either position, is something you have to work with to get where your going. Pluto is an important part of B's life journey.

The justice theme could be indicated by his sun and rising signs, and Jupiter on his MC. Traditional astrology associates justice with Sagittarius, Jupiter, and the ninth house. In modern astrology, justice is more often associated with Libra, Venus, and the seventh. If I hadn't heard anything about B's life story, I wouldn't look at his chart and immediately say he has major issues involving justice, but if that's the way it's playing out, the indicators are there.

Does B have any inclination to being an activist? Having been a victim of police brutality, he could be in a great position to use his experience to advocate for change. That could mean pursuing a case against the police, exposing them, rallying activists, joining people who are already working against police brutality, or any or all of those things.

With so many planets clustered around his MC, I imagine he has great potential for leadership. That could be deliberate leadership if he has the inclination to take charge, or it could be the more unwitting kind, like accidentally becoming a symbol for a cause.
 

Roxyrxc

Active member
8th house is the house of criminality. As you say 'underworld'activity; 9th is the house of justicial law-making, 10th the outer world of enforced law of a civilised society. Their natural rulers, Jupiter, Saturn and Pluto can say much about the intent the individual lives with. and, consequently,
their positive or negative influence in/upon the individual.

I've seen a number of charts of heavily laden Pluto, Scorpio and 8th house people serving in the police force, Mars-Pluto and Mars-Saturn aspects serving in the military, harsh Jupiter-Saturn aspects in pathological hardened criminals, and Saturn in 12th for long-term incarceration behind bars.

Criminal charts seem to be a fascination for many, yet they represent only a small section of society. Their charts would appear to be the exception rather than the rule?

Now I know why I've been to jail so many time I have Uranus and Neptune conjunct in the 8th and Saturn on the cusp of my 9/10th house ha
 

Airisaiia

Member
Thanks for the replies and comments. This topic is so interesting. The mental health comment is pretty spot on. Bi-polar runs on the family and B has never had a proper diagnosis. Although in his recent treatment he is finally getting the multi-faceted care that he has needed. The Neptunian plus Pluto amplification makes sense for B. So much of the analysis here is just so telling and spot on. B does have a huge soft spot for fairness and the underdog. When he runs a crew for framing or building, he takes really good care of them and makes sure they are doing quality work. I'm not sure about the activism just yet as he needs a bit more stability before he can help others just yet. But I can see him doing that down the road. He's definitely a natural leader. He was always taking charge and and planning things when we were kids and he naturally falls into leadership roles from his gaming to work to other things.

Well an update about B. He has 2 court dates coming up. 20 March 2017. I think it is a plea and sentencing. He is being charged with an assault and a DUI and has to take a plea deal on one of them. His lawyer wants him to plea for the assault but B wants to plea for the DUI so he can go to drug court and continue with the rehab he's been going to since early winter as he has made real change and progress since the rock bottom of the incident that these charges are for. The DUI is a longer road as far as probation and things but B is more concerned that he keep the addictions in check. He has also finished his contractor's license over the last few months and is ready to start his business. The other court date is 24 March 2017 and that is to decide the custody allocation of his son. So the outcome of the first is also connected to the outcome of the second. B is a really great dad. His son is his whole world. We are hoping that although B messed up badly on the night of the incident, the police did as well and because of the police brutality and torture involved with his arrest on the night, the judge will see his massive efforts to make lasting change and be relatively lenient. B has had more life challenges than most people have in 3. He's a magnet for struggle it seems. But he is really due for a change in direction and some peace and success.
 

dr. farr

Well-known member
Pluto, Uranus, Mars especially relate to potential criminality; afflictions to these planets, as well as connections of these planets (and possibly also Sun, Moon Saturn and Mercury) to the South Node, or to Dark Moon Lilith, or with close connections to certain stars, are key "red flags" alerting to the potential of criminal activity or sociopathic tendencies in natal charts.
 
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