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  #1  
Unread 07-03-2016, 06:18 PM
Jehan Jehan is offline
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A question pertaining to Saturn

At what point in history was Saturn to have been considered exalted in Leo.
Dr. Lehman makes reference to this fact in her book "Essential Dignities". Also the question that comes to mind is why did that change; was it because of logical reasoning or from observation. In the Chaldean tables of essential dignities he is given the first six degrees of Leo (fire triplictiy) as all other planets exalted are given the first six degrees as well other signs. Would anyone be able to give a reference to any text that speaks to this historic marker? If so then please guide me.

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Unread 07-03-2016, 06:23 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

I studied with Lee and have several of her books - this one I have never heard. Quote, please?

It may be, but it doesn't sound right to me.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:07 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
I studied with Lee and have several of her books - this one I have never heard. Quote, please?

It may be, but it doesn't sound right to me.
I have not the book with me right this second, but if you look in the beginning when she begins writing about the dignities, there is a chart that shows Saturn as being in exaltation in Leo. Initially I thought of this as a typo...so that is why I am inquiring, hoping that someone may know if the Chaldeans did consider Saturn being dignified in this sign. In a day chart of course he holds dignity by triplicity, being that his very nature can withstand the heat of fire; of course this has given me greater questions into this placement. He certainly embodies the original, "eye for an eye", energy, so given the history of humanity; if this moment of recorded history is true then I can completely understand why they would have possibly considered this.

I am not sure though.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:12 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post

I have not the book with me right this second,
but if you look in the beginning when she begins writing about the dignities,
there is a chart that shows Saturn as being in exaltation in Leo.
State the name of the book you refer to
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post

Initially I thought of this as a typo...so that is why I am inquiring,
hoping that someone may know if the Chaldeans did consider Saturn being dignified in this sign.
In a day chart of course he holds dignity by triplicity,
being that his very nature can withstand the heat of fire; of course this has given me greater questions into this placement.
He certainly embodies the original, "eye for an eye", energy, so given the history of humanity;
if this moment of recorded history is true then I can completely understand why they would have possibly considered this.

I am not sure though.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:15 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

From the transcription of a talk Lee gave here: http://www.leelehman.com/pages/images/Dignity.pdf


There is one major difference between the traditional exaltations and the rulerships: there are no
duplicate exaltations, and thus, not all signs are associated with planetary exaltations. Thus, the signs
Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius are not used in the exaltation system.

ETA: Saturn holds dignity of term in 11-18 degrees of Leo, and face in the last ten degrees of Leo. It's also the participating triplicity ruler.

But Saturn is detrimented in Leo, because it opposes Aquarius, Saturn's day house, and because Leo is ruled by the sun. Sun and Saturn are utterly inimical to each other. Saturn is the furthest planet from the sun, and Saturn also signifies winter, when the sun has little power.

Last edited by Oddity; 07-03-2016 at 07:19 PM.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:16 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
State the name of the book you refer to
Essential Dignities
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:22 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
From the transcription of a talk Lee gave here: http://www.leelehman.com/pages/images/Dignity.pdf


There is one major difference between the traditional exaltations and the rulerships: there are no
duplicate exaltations, and thus, not all signs are associated with planetary exaltations. Thus, the signs
Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius are not used in the exaltation system.

I do wish that I had the book with me right now. I am certain of what I have read. I have read the book twice and have used it as reference as well. I do understand why these signs hold no exaltations, but I do question deeply, why , if this is the case and not a typo....I feel that it is important to ponder because Saturn symbolically is the energy responsible for the material manifestation in which the spirit "Sun" encompasses. With out Saturn we would not be able to manifest the very material illusions that we strive for on the daily.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:24 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post

I do wish that I had the book with me right now.
I am certain of what I have read. I have read the book twice and have used it as reference as well.
I do understand why these signs hold no exaltations, but I do question deeply, why , if this the case and not a typo....
I feel that it is important to ponder because Saturn is the responsible for material manifestation in which the spirit "Sun" encompasses.
With out Saturn we would not be able to manifest the very material illusions that we strive for on the daily.
Useful if you would link to where copies of the book you refer to are for sale
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:25 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Useful if you would link to where copies of the book you refer to are for sale
https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Dig.../dp/092460803X
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:29 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

I have a copy of ED, but it appears to have gone walkies off the bookshelf. Again, this sounds strange.

Try googling it, but I've not found anything that states Saturn was ever exalted in Leo. Even in charts like the Thema Mundi and the Chart of the Fall, and those go back a ways.
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Unread 07-03-2016, 07:30 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Alternatively, Lee is an accessible person, she has a web site and email. Your best shot may be to ask her directly.
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Unread 07-04-2016, 05:24 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Saturn is exalted in Libra.
Saturn is in detriment in Leo.

Something seems like a misprint.

I don't think the Babylonians used domiciles in our sense. They used exaltations, but generally only for a few degrees or one degree of a sign. See Francesca Rochberg, The Heavenly Writing, on Babylonian astrology.
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Last edited by waybread; 07-04-2016 at 05:32 AM.
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Unread 07-04-2016, 06:58 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post
Saturn is exalted in Libra.
Saturn is in detriment in Leo.

Something seems like a misprint.

I don't think the Babylonians used domiciles in our sense. They used exaltations, but generally only for a few degrees or one degree of a sign. See Francesca Rochberg, The Heavenly Writing, on Babylonian astrology.
Yes, this is why I am asking.
I really like Dr. Lehman's published works and have much respect for her as an Astrologer, so when I first read what I am inquiring about I had to read it several times. I have asked quite a few other astrologers but they are not aware; so I think that I will take Oddity's advice and try to contact her and ask of the contextual meaning that she was trying to convey.
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Unread 07-04-2016, 08:59 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Let us know what she says!
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Unread 07-05-2016, 12:25 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
I have not the book with me right this second, but if you look in the beginning when she begins writing about the dignities, there is a chart that shows Saturn as being in exaltation in Leo.
It would be really hard for a planet to find his exaltation in a sign of his detriment. In anyone's dignity table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
Initially I thought of this as a typo...so that is why I am inquiring, hoping that someone may know if the Chaldeans did consider Saturn being dignified in this sign.
It could be a typo, or a misinterpretation. It's not like there isn't precident for even the ancients to make mistakes in what has come down to us in written format. Just about every single text has a head-scratcher in it. Once you start reading multiple texts you can begin to find the ancient errors, lol. No one's perfect, and in those days they didn't have editors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
In a day chart of course he holds dignity by triplicity, being that his very nature can withstand the heat of fire; of course this has given me greater questions into this placement.
No. Saturn is the participatory ruler in the Fire triplicity by day IF you use Dorothean triplicities, but I would never say that makes him "dignified" in Leo. How can he be? Saturn in the house of the Sun is only dignified in his own terms, and even then not so much.
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Unread 07-05-2016, 01:14 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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No. Saturn is the participatory ruler in the Fire triplicity by day IF you use Dorothean triplicities, but I would never say that makes him "dignified" in Leo. How can he be? Saturn in the house of the Sun is only dignified in his own terms, and even then not so much.
Right. Thank you for reminding me of this. He is the greater malefic after all. So if he is in his triplicity, such as he is now in a Day time chart, how would this dignity translate possibly. In Leo and in Aries, I understand his limitations, but in Sagittarius he would actually have the ability to perform with some honor correct?
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Unread 07-05-2016, 04:14 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
Right. Thank you for reminding me of this. He is the greater malefic after all. So if he is in his triplicity, such as he is now in a Day time chart, how would this dignity translate possibly. In Leo and in Aries, I understand his limitations, but in Sagittarius he would actually have the ability to perform with some honor correct?
Hi Jehan,

I'm no expert in traditional affairs, but I think you're asking what does Saturn do in Sagittarius?

Quote:
Saturn, while in Sagittarius is often asked to build solid foundations while on the move, while in a foreign land. This is easier said than done. Saturn requires respect, traditions, and a solid idea of who he is and what he does in relation to the community. As an immigrant gaining respect from the local people and either having or keeping traditional values, while adapting to those around him is not a natural thing to do for this planet and it feels alien quite often.
https://nightssky.wordpress.com/saturn-in-sagittarius/

Whether modern or traditional, planets take their cues from house rulers. The house ruler here is Jupiter. Saturn performing with honor is going to depend a lot on what Jupiter is doing in the chart. A Jupiter that is free to act is going to enhance the ability of Saturn to perform with some honor, as you put it.
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Unread 07-05-2016, 05:46 PM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by AJ Astrology View Post
Hi Jehan,

I'm no expert in traditional affairs, but I think you're asking what does Saturn do in Sagittarius?

I am not asking that for I am aware of his expression in this sign.

https://nightssky.wordpress.com/saturn-in-sagittarius/

Whether modern or traditional, planets take their cues from house rulers. The house ruler here is Jupiter. Saturn performing with honor is going to depend a lot on what Jupiter is doing in the chart. A Jupiter that is free to act is going to enhance the ability of Saturn to perform with some honor, as you put it.
Honor was the wrong word to use I feel. I am more curious of his ability to act within the terms that I stated; but thank you anyway for what you have offered.
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Unread 07-06-2016, 04:02 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
Right. Thank you for reminding me of this. He is the greater malefic after all. So if he is in his triplicity, such as he is now in a Day time chart, how would this dignity translate possibly. In Leo and in Aries, I understand his limitations, but in Sagittarius he would actually have the ability to perform with some honor correct?
Not necessarily. As usual, it will depend on several factors, which is why we usually use chart examples to explain. Take the "current transits" chart I just pulled up for a default location, and have attached.

Let's start with this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
So if he is in his triplicity, such as he is now in a Day time chart,
Granted, the chart I attached is a night chart, but if it were a day chart Saturn still wouldn't be in his triplicity. I think (and <ahem> others can chime in here>) you are misunderstanding the idea behind the triplicity rulers, especially the participatory triplicity rulers. The Sun rules the fire signs by day. At night, he is not diginified by triplicity if he is in a fire sign. Jupiter rules the fire signs by night; in a diurnal chart he does not have triplicity dignity if he is in a fire sign. Saturn, as the participatory ruler, does not get triplicity dignity in the day or night.

Lilly used Ptolemy's triplicity rulers, which ignored the participating planet and gave Mars rulership of water by both day and night. The biggest reason most traditional astrologers use Dorothean triplicities is because Mars having water by day and night doesn't make sense, or even work very well. So for horary purposes the participating ruler isn't considered.

In natal charts it's a different story, which goes back to the nautical metaphor. Saturn rows the fire triplicity when there is no wind. A head scratcher for sure, but by the time of the Persians they had it figured out that the triplicity rulers of the topics took turns as time lords, and the 3rd or participatory ruler had say over the last third of the native's life covering those topics ruled.

Going back to the chart I have attached, we have out of sect, peregrine, retrograde Saturn on the midheaven, just past a square with his debilitated ruler in the 8th sign/7th house, and being applied to by a cadent yet pivotal Moon. Saturn will return what Moon is pushing, and because the Moon is pushing from Leo he will reject it as well. There is no honor in this Saturn, and unfortunately his extremely angular status means he has the ability to behave dishonorably in a very prominent fashion.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Saturn in Sag.1.jpg (87.6 KB, 7 views)
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Unread 07-06-2016, 04:40 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Originally Posted by tsmall View Post
Not necessarily. As usual, it will depend on several factors, which is why we usually use chart examples to explain. Take the "current transits" chart I just pulled up for a default location, and have attached.

Let's start with this:



Granted, the chart I attached is a night chart, but if it were a day chart Saturn still wouldn't be in his triplicity. I think (and <ahem> others can chime in here>) you are misunderstanding the idea behind the triplicity rulers, especially the participatory triplicity rulers.
You are absolutely correct. I have been misunderstanding participatory rulers when it comes to the chart.

[/QUOTE]The Sun rules the fire signs by day. At night, he is not diginified by triplicity if he is in a fire sign. Jupiter rules the fire signs by night; in a diurnal chart he does not have triplicity dignity if he is in a fire sign. Saturn, as the participatory ruler, does not get triplicity dignity in the day or night. [/QUOTE]

Right, I see. He would only have dignity if he were posited in an Air sign in a Diurnal chart. That's it.

[/QUOTE]Lilly used Ptolemy's triplicity rulers, which ignored the participating planet and gave Mars rulership of water by both day and night. The biggest reason most traditional astrologers use Dorothean triplicities is because Mars having water by day and night doesn't make sense, or even work very well. So for horary purposes the participating ruler isn't considered.[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]In natal charts it's a different story, which goes back to the nautical metaphor. Saturn rows the fire triplicity when there is no wind. A head scratcher for sure, but by the time of the Persians they had it figured out that the triplicity rulers of the topics took turns as time lords, and the 3rd or participatory ruler had say over the last third of the native's life covering those topics ruled.[/QUOTE]

So in this chart; when viewed as a natal chart he would be the ruler for a person beginning at roughly the age of 61. The areas of life that would be ruled by him would be the 11th house pertaining to ( success of collective adventures) and the 12th house (Powerlessness or animals which are ridden)
We would look at his his position which is public, and also take into account the aspects which are certainly tenuous with the square to Jupiter who is in his detriment, and moon as well ( who is in the sign of his detriment) so he would find no relief in the matters pertaining to the third portion of life.

[/QUOTE]Going back to the chart I have attached, we have out of sect, peregrine, retrograde Saturn on the midheaven, just past a square with his debilitated ruler in the 8th sign/7th house, and being applied to by a cadent yet pivotal Moon. Saturn will return what Moon is pushing, and because the Moon is pushing from Leo he will reject it as well. There is no honor in this Saturn, and unfortunately his extremely angular status means he has the ability to behave dishonorably in a very prominent fashion.[/QUOTE]



I can see this. Thank you so much Tsmall for your input. I appreciate you.
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Unread 07-08-2016, 12:53 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
At what point in history was Saturn to have been considered exalted in Leo.
Dr. Lehman makes reference to this fact in her book "Essential Dignities". Also the question that comes to mind is why did that change; was it because of logical reasoning or from observation. In the Chaldean tables of essential dignities he is given the first six degrees of Leo (fire triplictiy) as all other planets exalted are given the first six degrees as well other signs. Would anyone be able to give a reference to any text that speaks to this historic marker? If so then please guide me.
I must profess that I misread what was written by Dr. Lehman. My apologies.
However I am glad that this happened, because I feel that Saturn is misconstrued by many and is worth the attention.
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Unread 07-08-2016, 12:56 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Tsmall,

"Saturn as a participatory ruler"; this is only when the domicile, exalted, and Ruling Triplicity ruler makes no aspect to the sign it rules, but only he makes an aspect to correct?
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Unread 07-08-2016, 02:23 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

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Tsmall,

"Saturn as a participatory ruler"; this is only when the domicile, exalted, and Ruling Triplicity ruler makes no aspect to the sign it rules, but only he makes an aspect to correct?
No. Saturn is the participatory ruler of the fire triplicity. This means that in the last third of the native's life (which can be sooner than 61 years, as you previously posted) he sets the tone of life if the sect light of the native's chart is in a fire sign.

Take a look at Dorotheus for some early writing on triplicity rulers plus chart examples, and Bonatti for later.
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Unread 07-08-2016, 02:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
No. Saturn is the participatory ruler of the fire triplicity. This means that in the last third of the native's life (which can be sooner than 61 years, as you previously posted) he sets the tone of life if the sect light of the native's chart is in a fire sign.

Take a look at Dorotheus for some early writing on triplicity rulers plus chart examples, and Bonatti for later.
Thank you Oddity. I will do this now.

Last edited by Jehan; 07-08-2016 at 02:37 AM.
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Unread 07-08-2016, 03:37 AM
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Re: A question pertaining to Saturn

Hello,

thanks for this thread, very interesting.

And also, I am going to post what I used to use
wrt dignitaries, since I could imagine that there
are mistakes in it. Unfortunately I can't remember
where I got this from.


PLANET-----RULER-------DETRIMENT-----EXALTATION-----FALL
Mars-----Aries+Scorpio--Libra+Taurus-------Cancer-------Capricorn
Venus---Libra+Taurus----Aries+Scorpio------Pisces-----------Virgo
Mercury--Gemini+Virgo---Sagittarius+Pisces-----???-------------???
Moon-------Cancer---------Capricorn---------Taurus---------Scorpio
Sun---------Leo------------Aquarius----------Aries-----------Libra
Jupiter--Sagittarius+Pisces--Gemini+Virgo------Cancer--------Capricorn
Saturn--Capricorn+Aquarius--Cancer+Leo-------Libra------------Aries

So I would appreciate any feedback and corrections on this.

many thanks, Richard
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