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  #876  
Unread 08-30-2015, 05:59 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
Am I the only one disturbed by the fact that we are actually discussing a chart based on how some individuals are prone to accept the outer planets and others not...?

....
Dirius, Oddity asked me a question and I attempted to answer it. I at least step up to the plate on chart readings on this thread. Unlike some.....

Quote:
What you've done is show that some contemporary authors have certain opinions on traditional source material that differ from us.
Oh, really, Dirius? Which authors would these be? Any that you've read lately and can cite?

Quote:
You haven't actually posted much of your opinions yourself, but rather sending us links to modern writters (like Dykes, Warters, etc), about their opinions on someone else's work. That doesn't really show much expertise, but rather a lack of personal knowledge on the sources you are claiming to counter.
Surely you're joking. I've expressed my personal opinions, loud and clear. Unlike you, however, I'm prepared to back up my opinions with supplementary information. What backs up your opinions? JA copies and pastes a lot: are you OK with that?

I have no idea who "Warters" is. Benjamin Dykes is a well-respected traditional astrologer.


Quote:
In fact most of your paragraphs being with a "Are you familiar with X author...?"
Dirius, this comment just floors me. Where are you getting your information from? From the same intuition that you so dislike in your straw-man modern astrologers? You make strong statements that are simply incorrect, which indicates that you need to do a lot more reading into the original sources than you have done so far. I am curious to know how you even learned horary astrology without substantial reading; and who really is behind your condemnation of a type of astrology you know so little about. You don't seem to read widely, so I am curious as to who shaped your opinion.

Quote:
After that, you've pretty much just complained about our supposed flaws as astrologers, questioning how much we know about it, creating entire posts based on off topic comments.
If being off-topic is a sin, I'm in good company here. I'm not the one trying to teach horary astrology in a thread about Pluto. I do wish you would learn the facts before you purport to express them.

Quote:
Things like commenting that JUPASC never did a horoscope reading on this forum, my grammar flaws, and Oddity's mindset towards the outers
Dirius, if you can link an actual horoscope reading done by JA (not a copy & paste job or comment on a single placement,) I would love to see it. Till then, JA has voluntarily limited his ability to understand what Pluto or any planet means in horoscope interpretation. I never commented on your grammar flaws. Surely you know the difference between grammar and spelling; and that the real problems with your arguments have nothing to do with Spanglish. Oddity's mindset towards the outers is precisely in keeping with the OP.

Quote:
This ceased to be a debate a long time ago, given that most of the things we've said were simply answered with someone else's opinion.
What are you talking about? That you would take my personal experience and beliefs over the links I've posted and experts I've indicated? If so, I am happy to unload. I've read hundreds of charts for people. That you have a problem with citations, simply shows you don't really understand how knowledge is accumulated and backed up. And that you have an issue to take up with JA, who copies and links all kinds of information.

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  #877  
Unread 08-30-2015, 06:03 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post
We usually don't do horoscopic readings based on life events (ie: winning nobel prize, getting married, etc) on the forums because our methods can take hours of measurement involving chart delineation along with Profections/Solar Returns just to get to a delineation.

We did already have challenges, like mundane charts proving that for example, pluto is not the ruler of Scorpio.

So pardon us if we won't spend a couple of hours from our lives to make a delineation, only to have it dismissed by modern astrologers on the grounds that "they still feel plutonian influence".

But we don't just go around saying:

"Oh she had a Sun-opposition pluto, that explains her achievements in science studying radioactivity".

Which by the way, it is an aspect shared by a large portion of the population (everyone probably has one planet in aspect with pluto), and pass it off as "evidence".

On the other hand we did propose challenges ourselves, yet no modern astrologer responded. So go figure.
Alright, excuses and strawmen it is then.
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  #878  
Unread 08-30-2015, 06:07 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
Frawley uses the outer planets in his work, though. But he doesn't give them rulership.

I also remember when he was delineating midpoints, there may still be some articles on the web with that.

What I'm getting at here is that probably being an astrologer at all isn't that common. I don't think you're going to see really marked differences in the charts of astrologers who started out in modern astrology and stayed with modern, or the charts of astrologers who started out with modern techniques and got fascinated by the trad stuff, and at this point in time, most of us who practise traditional technique started out with modern astrology.

I'd also argue that it's a pretty fringe subject in the world today, regardless if you do modern, trad, Jyotish, or any other iteration - from the outside looking in, we're all of a piece to most people.

The traditional astrologer's signature is Mercury, Jupiter, Mars, and Saturn all being in aspect, some of them angular, bonus points for Saturn in Virgo. You don't need every bit of that to be true, but you may find quite a lot of it in your chart, or the chart of other astrologers.
Kind of a no-pass from me, Oddity. You asked me a tough question about Pluto in the chart and I tried to answer it. If you want to get under the hood of my chart readings, that would be a suitable response. Your question wasn't about how the public views astrologers.

Traditional astrology has been around in force for over 20 years now, so we are seeing trads who did not come up through the modern route.

I'm so happy to get bonus points for Saturn in Virgo, though. I'd always hoped it was good for something.
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  #879  
Unread 08-30-2015, 06:09 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Guys, it's been a pleasure; but my husband and I are actually off camping now, and ready to move into non-Wi-Fi territory. I'll be away for several days.

Cheers.
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  #880  
Unread 08-30-2015, 06:35 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

EDIT: seems no point, will post when you get back (if the conversation continues).

Anyways, happy camping.
-------------------------------------

All you've done in the last few pages was to show links to some modern day writter, who may have made a comment on an ancient source.

I'm not saying its wrong. Just saying, it hurts the argument of "expertise", given that the answers you provided were given by someone else. At least when we speak, we do it from the source directly.

Quote:
If being off-topic is a sin, I'm in good company here. I'm not the one trying to teach horary astrology in a thread about Pluto. I do wish you would learn the facts before you purport to express them.
Neither do I. But I do mention Horary.

And the reason I believe you avoid the topic of horary, seems to be perfectibly understandable: it would hurt your own argument. In your own method you have used horary with traditional rulers...rather than outers.

If we would start to comment on Horary charts, the pluto argument would be over by now. That is why i seems to me you'd rather stay it in the "natal" sector, and avoid horary.

-----------------------

And on that natal sector, you've shown a few charts in which pluto is aspecting perhaps one planet, and you point out to that to say "it is the reason for this, it is the reason for that".

Most of those aspects can be found in many many charts, and do not even mean similar things for each chart.

How many people you suppose have Sun opposition pluto?? Literally thousands, perhaps even millions.

How many of those did actual work on science, in the field of radioactivity?? probably very few.
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Last edited by Dirius; 08-30-2015 at 06:39 AM.
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  #881  
Unread 08-30-2015, 01:30 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by waybread View Post

Guys, it's been a pleasure; but my husband and I are actually off camping now,
and ready to move into non-Wi-Fi territory.
I'll be away for several days.
Cheers.

Visible night skies territory ~ remember to pack that 'cheap backyard telescope' you recommended earlier on the thread

Have fun viewing those clear starry skies
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  #882  
Unread 08-30-2015, 01:38 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Dirius View Post

But I do mention Horary.

And the reason I believe you avoid the topic of horary, seems to be perfectibly understandable:
it would hurt your own argument.

In your own method you have used horary with traditional rulers...rather than outers.

If we would start to comment on Horary charts, the pluto argument would be over by now.
That is why i seems to me you'd rather stay it in the "natal" sector, and avoid horary.

-----------------------
And on that natal sector, you've shown a few charts in which pluto is aspecting perhaps one planet,
and you point out to that to say "it is the reason for this, it is the reason for that".

Most of those aspects can be found in many many charts, and do not even mean similar things for each chart.

How many people you suppose have Sun opposition pluto?? Literally thousands, perhaps even millions.

How many of those did actual work on science, in the field of radioactivity?? probably very few.
dwarf planet pluto was erroneously thought to have been a planet in 1930
i.e. approximately 85 years ago

and since

Sun-pluto opposition is annual

and since
more than three hundred thousand people are born worldwide on a daily basis

then
the natal charts of twenty five million, five hundred thousand people have the Sun-pluto opposition

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  #883  
Unread 08-31-2015, 12:40 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
The idea that Pluto is an astrological planet is pretty entrenched. Don't think that's going to change for another decade or two.
Well it won't unless it's proved it isn't which it hasn't been thus far
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  #884  
Unread 08-31-2015, 12:44 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Well it won't unless it's proved it isn't
There's no credible modern astrological definition of 'an astrological planet'
and no proof of dwarf planet pluto being 'a modern astrological planet'

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Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

which it hasn't been thus far
That's a matter of opinion
there's no definition of 'a modern astrological planet'
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  #885  
Unread 08-31-2015, 12:46 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

has it occurred to any Pluto hater that they might be under a Saturn psychology hold themselves? Aka in the kin of the people who hated the first printing press, the ones who invented the Internet etc? akin to the holders of power which was about to be disseminated for kingdom come! Why does Saturn HAVE to be the master and be all and end all of all things astrological, it just does not make any sense at all in any way shape or form...because the physics say so too, Saturn is NOT the end of the physical solar system and astrology is based on the physical solar system..it might be a small planet but then so is bloody mercury
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  #886  
Unread 08-31-2015, 12:58 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

has it occurred to any Pluto hater that they might be under a Saturn psychology hold themselves? Aka in the kin of the people who hated the first printing press, the ones who invented the Internet etc? akin to the holders of power which was about to be disseminated for kingdom come! Why does Saturn HAVE to be the master and be all and end all of all things astrological, it just does not make any sense at all in any way shape or form...because the physics say so too, Saturn is NOT the end of the physical solar system and astrology is based on the physical solar system..
has it occurred to any of the dwarf planet pluto afficianados that no one 'hates' that dwarf planet?

Quite simply, traditional astrology has a definition of what consitutes a traditional astrological planet
but
modern astrologers lack consensus as to what constitutes 'a modern astrological planet'


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Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

.it might be a small planet but then so is bloody mercury



Mercury is close to the Sun and so takes just 88 DAYS to orbit the sun
whereas distant invisible dwarf planet pluto requires 248 YEARS
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  #887  
Unread 08-31-2015, 01:03 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

The dimmer, but visible, fixed stars aren't used in astrological delineation, either, even though the ancients could see them.

They don't cast enough light.

I think there are a few problems with the outers. One is that their significations were nicked from the classical planets. The other is that they're blamed/praised for almost everything. Someone tells of some emotional distress, and you see Mars in Libra on the ascendant opposing Saturn in Aries, but no, that can't be it, it's the biseptile from Pluto to Venus. You got rich. Pluto transitted your second house. You went bankrupt. Pluto transitted your second house. These are really delineations I've seen.

The outers, with an emphasis on Pluto, are about the only thing many modern astrologers look at. And that's crazy.

People are saying there's something wrong with my psychology, with other people who use trad techniques, because using Pluto is so normative, there must be a signature in our birth charts as to why we don't. I did, for over 20 years, and the more I worked with it, the more charts I looked at, the less impressed I was. So I dropped the outers. And my astrology got better for it.

Can you use Pluto? Sure, and the vast, vast majority of people here do. But you don't HAVE to. Charts are perfectly comprehensible without it, and it seems to obfuscate matters more than clarify them when it is used, at least from what I've seen.
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  #888  
Unread 08-31-2015, 01:09 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
has it occurred to any of the dwarf planet pluto afficianados that no one 'hates' that dwarf planet?

Quite simply, traditional astrology has a definition of what consitutes a traditional astrological planet
but
modern astrologers lack consensus as to what constitutes 'a modern astrological planet'






Mercury is close to the Sun and so takes just 88 DAYS to orbit the sun
whereas distant invisible dwarf planet pluto requires 248 YEARS
relatively soaking size wise

And there would be no aficionados if there weren't whingers about nothing seeing as Pluto means nothing you're expending an awful lot of energy sayng so lol
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  #889  
Unread 08-31-2015, 01:14 AM
emily23 emily23 is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
There's no credible modern astrological definition of 'an astrological planet'
and no proof of dwarf planet pluto being 'a modern astrological planet'


That's a matter of opinion
there's no definition of 'a modern astrological planet'
you are free to stay in the 17th century along with all the Luddites witch burners bible bashers....??

SATURN is NOT the end of the astrology universe and I'm soooo glad he/she is not because he/she is a pain in the **** most of the time, and most people have got his//her number now, respect it, but free to explore beyond it,,,,,in your world maybe the headmaster was God, well, guess what, he isn't, if he was you would never have new inventions, new art, questioning of tradition etc all things that make PROGRESS for humanity, good night
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  #890  
Unread 08-31-2015, 01:16 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

you are free to stay in the 17th century along with all the Luddites witch burners bible bashers....??

SATURN is NOT the end of the astrology universe and I'm soooo glad he/she is not because he/she is a pain in the **** most of the time, and most people have got his//her number now, respect it, but free to explore beyond it,,,,,in your world maybe the headmaster was God, well, guess what, he isn't, good night
This thread topic does not concern Saturn
if you wish to discuss Saturn and the astrological universe
you are free to commence a new threa
d
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  #891  
Unread 08-31-2015, 02:31 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
This thread topic does not concern Saturn
if you wish to discuss Saturn and the astrological universe
you are free to commence a new threa
d
it most certainly DOES involve Saturn as Saturn is the final end of the traditional astrology school whereas Pluto is the end of the modern school, as far as planets go that is, and the argument is about Pluto not being a planet..don't you see the relevance?

I suppose one could start a thread about Uranus or Neptune too in ths vein, they are meaningless, why hasn't anyone? Do traditional astrologers value them more than Pluto or value them at all? Or none? It's no skin off my nose Jupiter, I just don't recall anyone making such a song and dance act about Pluto meaning nothng before...,,,
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  #892  
Unread 08-31-2015, 02:41 AM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

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Originally Posted by Oddity View Post
The dimmer, but visible, fixed stars aren't used in astrological delineation, either, even though the ancients could see them.

They don't cast enough light.

I think there are a few problems with the outers. One is that their significations were nicked from the classical planets. The other is that they're blamed/praised for almost everything. Someone tells of some emotional distress, and you see Mars in Libra on the ascendant opposing Saturn in Aries, but no, that can't be it, it's the biseptile from Pluto to Venus. You got rich. Pluto transitted your second house. You went bankrupt. Pluto transitted your second house. These are really delineations I've seen.

The outers, with an emphasis on Pluto, are about the only thing many modern astrologers look at. And that's crazy.

People are saying there's something wrong with my psychology, with other people who use trad techniques, because using Pluto is so normative, there must be a signature in our birth charts as to why we don't. I did, for over 20 years, and the more I worked with it, the more charts I looked at, the less impressed I was. So I dropped the outers. And my astrology got better for it.

Can you use Pluto? Sure, and the vast, vast majority of people here do. But you don't HAVE to. Charts are perfectly comprehensible without it, and it seems to obfuscate matters more than clarify them when it is used, at least from what I've seen.
I use Jupter Uranus coming into money

I think you exaggerated when you said all the modern astrologers use the outers and especially Pluto..and nothng else...that is just so plainly untrue....SOME modern astrologers thnk the outers are special and of course they are not any more so than any other planet...and they certainly don't JUST use the outers, the outers are a fact in our modern astronomical culture and need to be integrated into our astrology....JMHO They don't HAVE to be of course, but they must mean somerthing...and that something is a reflection of human progress as mirrored here On planet earth as above so below, when we are ready of course, final goodnight just had to have another peak in

Last edited by emily23; 08-31-2015 at 02:43 AM.
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  #893  
Unread 08-31-2015, 03:04 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

I decline to waste my time participating in a non-winnable subcategory of an argument (the main one being whether or not astrology itself is viable) both being non-winnable as they are based on ideology.

I believe the wise solution to this particular difference, and the larger one, is compromise, with both sides agreeing to 'live and let live' and let the matter drop. At any rate, the answer, if there is one, is of no real consequence in the lives of the billions of people who inhabit the earth nor would it have been in the lives of the billions who have come before us. Every classification about the objects in this solar system is nothing more than man's opinion - which nature cares nothing about. That's right, I believe that man's opinion of whether or not Pluto is a planet is of no consequence in the day-to-day affairs of men. What is of consequence is how people choose to express themselves regardless of aspects in 'their' horoscope. It seems most choose a peaceful way or we would not have singular murderers committing their heinous deeds but legions of them going off at nearly the same time.
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  #894  
Unread 08-31-2015, 03:09 PM
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

[deleted attacking comment - Moderator]

pluto is a dwarf planet, not a planet
Quote:
Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

it most certainly DOES involve Saturn as Saturn is the final end of the traditional astrology school
whereas Pluto is the end of the modern school, as far as planets go that is,
and the argument is about Pluto not being a planet
..don't you see the relevance?,
That's a discussion for another thread
because this threads focus is on determining what makes pluto an astrological planet

Quote:
Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

I suppose one could start a thread about Uranus or Neptune too in ths vein, they are meaningless, why hasn't anyone?

if you cannot find that discussion already then nothing prevents you from commencing your own thread discussion
if that is a topic of particular interest to you
as it seems to be
given your frequently raising this topic
Quote:
Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

Do traditional astrologers value them more than Pluto or value them at all? Or none?
It's no skin off my nose Jupiter,

That's a topic for discussion on another thread and by all means commence one
as that is of interest to you

Quote:
Originally Posted by emily23 View Post

I just don't recall anyone making such a song and dance act about Pluto meaning nothng before...,,,
Just because you don't recall anyone questioning dwarf planet pluto's astrological use before
does not mean no one has questioned dwarf planet pluto being 'an astrological planet' before
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Last edited by wilsontc; 09-01-2015 at 05:51 PM.
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  #895  
Unread 11-24-2015, 02:32 PM
lauren2x lauren2x is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Okay let me end this pluto is an astrological planet and he do has influence big time and for all who dont belive that pluto in an astrological planet should start beliving
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  #896  
Unread 11-26-2015, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Its astrology not science your really stupid ehh and a mad hater of pluto ..
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  #897  
Unread 11-26-2015, 06:13 PM
lauren2x lauren2x is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

the fact that pluto has his influence in people like jupiter mars venus make him an astrological planet
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  #898  
Unread 11-26-2015, 06:21 PM
lauren2x lauren2x is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

he may be a dwarf planet like ceres or eris and ..... but pluto has his influence and this you cant deny
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  #899  
Unread 11-26-2015, 09:07 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren2x View Post

why i have a feelin
that jupiterasc theorist and oddity
is the exact same person in different accouts
mmmm intersting ..
dwarf planet pluto clearly gave you astrological psychic powers
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  #900  
Unread 11-26-2015, 09:09 PM
lauren2x lauren2x is offline
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Re: Is Pluto an astrological planet?

why you not answer my questions
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