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Natal Astrology A place to discuss yours and others' birth charts (after you post your own birth chart interpretation). Includes psychological and relocation astrology, houses, aspects, and planetary dignity and debility.


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  #1  
Unread 04-19-2007, 01:45 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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How do you work out how strong a planet is?

People often talk about a planet's strength in natal charts. I was wondering how do you work out how strong a planet is in a chart, whether it is afflicted or not, etc.?

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  #2  
Unread 04-19-2007, 04:23 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

It's based on a series of dignities and debilities. Certain planets like it in certain places and are strengthened when a chart finds them there. Likewise, some planets can't stand to be in certain places and are weakened when a chart finds them there. It's based on Signs of Dignity/Detriment/Fall/Exhaltion, Houses of Joy and Accidental Dignity, position in relation to Sol, and a mess of other things. Lilly developed a table which I provided a link to below.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html
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Unread 04-19-2007, 05:13 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Thanks. My scores are:

-1 Jupiter
+5 Moon
+7 Sun, Saturn
+10 Venus
+14 Mercury
+18 Mars

Jupiter is in detriment, peregrine, slow, occidental. The only thing that was positive was it was in the 4th house, direct and free from combustion.

Mars is in its own sign or in mutual reception by sign, 4th house, direct, free from sun etc., partile trine with venus. Negative is it is slow and occidental.

Last edited by Yoi; 04-19-2007 at 05:20 PM.
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  #4  
Unread 04-19-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Yoi,

I don't have time to explain at the moment but I would not use Lilly's dignity system at all for natal work if I were you. He was not a very good natal astrologer. From a natal perspective it is funny that Mars in your chart is the worst by placement and your Jupiter has the most fitness of all your planets.

regards

Bob
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Unread 04-19-2007, 05:57 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Hi Yoi,

I don't have time to explain at the moment but I would not use Lilly's dignity system at all for natal work if I were you. He was not a very good natal astrologer. From a natal perspective it is funny that Mars in your chart is the worst by placement and your Jupiter has the most fitness of all your planets.

regards

Bob
Hi Bob,

Good to hear from you again. If you don't mind me asking if Lily is not a good system to use, what is a good system to use for a natal chart?
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Unread 04-19-2007, 06:35 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Yoi,

I just have time before I go out to give you this.

According to the System of Hermes reconstructed by Project Hindsight ones life is described as a ship on a voyage: The ascendant is the bow of the ship and the ruler the steersman; the Lot of Fortune is the lookout and the strongest planet in the chart (though it must have authority too) is what moderns call the chart ruler, almuten of a degree or almutem. The strongest planet in a chart with some authority is the Captain and guides ones life. He does not say where the ship is going because that is the owners job ( another investigation decides the destiny planet) but he does run the ship itself. To find the Kurios or ships Captain requires four primary concepts. Fitness is finding the planet that is; 1) Angular; 2) Rising in the East; 3) Direct or retrograde and 4) How many of his own places is he in; Domicile, Exaltation, Triplicity or Bounds (term). It is a human matter to study each of the planets for as many conditions (as above) that he can have, and when one decides which planet has the most fitness, he is appointed as Captain to manage ones life. If one had a planet that fulfilled all or nearly all of these conditions, ones life would be ‘plain sailing’ in a manner of speaking. All without a number in sight... (numbers may work well for horary but not natal)

Best regards

Bob
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Unread 04-19-2007, 07:40 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

"There is no dark side of the moon really, as a matter of fact its all dark."

I had to listen to that again as I have been meaning to lately!
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  #8  
Unread 04-20-2007, 01:17 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the info. However I still don't see how you worked out that Jupiter is the strongest planet from that list. Jupiter is angular and direct (but so is Mars, the Moon and Sun). I'm not sure what you mean by Rising in the East and Jupiter is not in any of his places (I think).

I'm intrigued by your mention of the "destiny planet" - I'v never encountered that term in astrology before! If you have time I think it would be great if you could expand on what the destiny planet is.

Last edited by Yoi; 04-21-2007 at 01:14 AM.
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  #9  
Unread 04-23-2007, 07:12 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Yoi.

What is your data? I couldn't find it listed, and I'll go through a method of finding the 'lord of the geniture' in your chart with you, i.e., that planet with the greatest amount of accidental and essential dignity.

Bear in mind also that Lilly's list of numbers is a rule of thumb, it's about weighing symbolism and not precise mathematics, and what are often perceived as accidental debilities in one setting or circumstance, might be regarded a dignity in others.
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  #10  
Unread 04-23-2007, 09:54 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Draco, can you describe the method you're using?
I've tried to figure out how to find the strongest planet or "lord of the geniture" myself a couple of times,
but it only gave me an head ache
I just don't get it!
I just crave for a step by step method that is easy to understand.

This is my chart for anyone who is willing to try.
But I actually want to learn how to do this myself.
The only thing I figured out that my Moon is in fall, that's about it
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  #11  
Unread 04-23-2007, 10:55 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Fly.

Okay, it's probably best to do three or four charts to give you a good idea of how to go about it, but here goes with your chart.

Now, the idea is, to find the planet that has the greatest amount of essential and accidental dignity, but the accidental dignity is important because the planet's essential dignity is it's latent strength, but it's accidental dignity, is it's ability to act upon that strength.

I am presuming that you already know the difference between essential and accidental dignity?

Just in case, a planets essential dignity, is how strong it is according to the placement in the zodiac, i.e. Mars is very strong in Aries, but very weak in Libra. There are five essential dignities, and to seek the LoG you need to know them all, and not just the domicile and detriment of modern astrology. The essential dignities are, and the rule of thumb, rough 'scoring' for the strength of that essential dignity goes as follows.

Domicile +5
Exaltation +4
Triplicity +3
Term +2
Face +1

Peregrine 0 (Lilly says '-5', which makes no sense because that's detriment, some say '-3' which again makes no sense because peregrine has no dignity, I learned '0', and I stick to it).

A peregrine planet is one that is void of any dignity, it can be influenced for better or worse by receptions and aspects with other planets.

There are debilities as well, such as your Moon in fall, but you only look for dignities for this purpose. In any case the essential debilities are:

Detriment - 5
Fall - 4

Accidental dignity on the other hand accords to a planets position by house, i.e. first house very strong, twelfth very weak. Retrograde motion, combustion, cazimi etc. are also accidental dignities, but the order of the 'power to act' of the houses, is as follows:

House 1
House 10
House 7
House 4
House 11
House 5
House 9
House 3
House 2
House 8
House 6
House 12

Remember that this is a rough rule of thumb and is intended as a guideline only, to be used with your imaginative license in interpretation and common sense, it isn't a mathematical formula, just a guideline.

In general, obviously angular houses are strong and cadent weak, but we can see from the sliding scale which of the angular houses are strongest and which of the cadent weakest.

A person may have a planet in it's triplicity which is a moderate essential dignity, and a planet in it's domicile which is strong, but if the former planet is in the first house, the strongest house, then it has a great amount of power to act upon the moderate strength that it has. Let's say that the domicile planet is in the twelfth house, it is essentially stronger, but so weak for it's accdiental placement in the gaol of the twelfth house, that despite it's strength, it is pretty powerless to act upon it.

Hopefully, you follow me so far.

Now, when seeking to identify the Lord of the Geniture, have a look and see which are the most essentially dignified planets in your chart.

Now, you have no planets in domicile, nor in exaltation, so the next dignity down is triplicity (+3), which is moderately strong, and we see that you have Saturn in it's triplicity, as it is in Gemini, and Saturn is in his triplicity when in air signs between dawn and dusk.

This does not mean that we have found the LoG yet however, we must confirm this. Your Moon in in it's fall, and a very troublesome Moon it will be, because as it is in your ascendant, the strongest house, it has full power to act upon it's fallen state (I have a troublesome Moon too), so the Moon is definately not lord of the chart.

This leaves Jupiter, now if Jupiter happened to be in it's term (it isn't), even though this is a more minor dignity than the triplicity of Saturn, then because Jupiter would have more accidental strength by virtue of it's house placement, it would be able to make the most of it's strength even more so than Jupiter.

So in your chart, like my own, Saturn is the Lord of the Geniture, your guiding light in life, your guardian angel, and the planet whose example you should follow to lead you to your destiny, and Saturn's configuration in your chart will give you clues to this.

Saturn is in the seventh and rules the third. What does this tell you about your self and your purpose?

In traditional astrology, our lives are fated and our fate is written in the horoscope, but we can utilise freewill via the lord of our horoscopes, and this leads us to our destiny, for some it will be more difficult than others, but the LoG is the key to all our unfulfilled potentials, describing our purpose and mission in this life.

It can also be an eye-opener to look for the anti-lord as well, which will always try and lead us astray.

Your weakest most troublesome planet is the Moon, and being in the first has full power to act upon it's malefic potential. The Moon also disposits Saturn, so yes, a difficult Moon indeed. The Moon in your chart is also opposite the house of it's traditional rulership, the Moon doesn't like to be in the first at all.

I hope you've got some idea of how to work the LoG, or the strongest planet in the horoscope.

In your chart it is quite easy, because it is one of those charts in which the planet simply with the most essential strength is the LoG, because it has the accidental strength to back it up. There are many charts however, in which a planet that does not have as much essential dignity as another is the lord of the chart, by virtue of house placement.

I will find such an example.

Hopefully, you understood me, but I'd be happy to explain again with a different example.
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Last edited by Draco; 04-24-2007 at 01:06 AM.
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  #12  
Unread 04-23-2007, 11:06 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Draco,

My details are 4 December 1979, Hong Kong, 4:57pm. Thanks! I guess I was being a bit paranoid about the info and now I realize it's a bit stupid

Last edited by Yoi; 04-24-2007 at 12:53 AM.
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  #13  
Unread 04-24-2007, 12:28 AM
FlyAway FlyAway is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Thanks Draco, for your explanation, I already see half of the picture,
and after re-reading it a couple of times I hopefully see the full picture

Tomorrow I will take a look at some other charts.
Just to see if I get it or not.
(I've got the chart here of a friend, with his Saturn in Capricorn, and his Mars in the first house, that looks like a promising chart.)

Saturn my Lord of the Geniture, I never even considered it.
Since my chart is so full of plutonion energy, I vaguely guessed Pluto was in charge.

And what are the symptoms of a "bad moon"?
I hope it doesn't give me any werewolf features
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  #14  
Unread 04-24-2007, 06:41 AM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

How did I miss these responses?

Hi Yoi. I will get back to you about the LoG in your chart very soon.

Quote:
and after re-reading it a couple of times I hopefully see the full picture
Haha. Perhaps I could just explain more clearly. Nah, it seems complicated at first but once you have done a few charts, you'll be on your way with it.

Quote:
Tomorrow I will take a look at some other charts.
Just to see if I get it or not.
That's a good idea. With the data too if possible, and go through them and see if you can find the LoG, if you err, I'll tell you where you've gone wrong.

Quote:
I vaguely guessed Pluto was in charge.
Because finding the lord (or lady) of the horoscope requires the full use of the dignities and debilities scheme, the transpersonals can't be lord of the chart, only one of the seven visible planets, as they are more akin to humanity and interested in human welfare, they watch over us, although our lord Saturn, is the most distant, and the most senior.

Quote:
And what are the symptoms of a "bad moon"?
I hope it doesn't give me any werewolf features
Hehe. Well, it isn't a full Moon at least. I was just struck by your Moon as it is in fall, and in the most prominent house, which hapens to be the worst house for the Moon as it is opposite it's traditional house of rulership, which is the seventh.

My Moon is rather difficult, it's peregrine, in the calamatous sixth and afflicted by a very powerful Mars in Scorpio, which afflicts the Moon via a square from it's domicile in a sign that hates the Moon, so the Moon suffers something of a lashing from Mars.

I'll discuss it with you when I'm back on.

In fact, it might make an interesting thread about those of us with poorly dignified Moons, and how they manifest in our lives.

For both of us, Saturn is the Lord of the Geniture, and the Moon is the most debilitated planet.
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Unread 04-24-2007, 01:28 PM
FlyAway FlyAway is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

It was quite late last night, so I didn't get the full picture yet.
But after re-reading your post again I think I get it, at least the way you've analyzed my chart.
I really need to become more familiar with classical astrology, and especially with its language.

Quote:
Quote:
I vaguely guessed Pluto was in charge.
Because finding the lord (or lady) of the horoscope requires the full use of the dignities and debilities scheme, the transpersonals can't be lord of the chart, only one of the seven visible planets, as they are more akin to humanity and interested in human welfare, they watch over us, although our lord Saturn, is the most distant, and the most senior.
You're right, I wasn't thinking classical yesterday but modern
I'm also using automatically modern rulership, because that's the way I've learned astrology.

I want to read and study a bit more before I really give it a try.
Because my mind sort of gets it, but I don't feel it yet.
But it's interesting stuff.

Thanks again
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Unread 04-24-2007, 01:44 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Yoi.

Quote:
My details are 4 December 1979, Hong Kong, 4:57pm.
The strongest planet in your chart then is the Sun.

The Sun is in his day triplicity in Sagittarius, and angular in the seventh, giving him a decent measure of power to act upon his latent strength, and as there are no other planets with stronger essential and accidental dignity combined, the Sun is Lord of the Geniture for you.

We see that Venus is also in her triplicity, but because she is in a succedent house, she hasn't as much power to act as the angular Sun.

Mercury has the minor dignity of term, but is cadent.

So for you Yoi, your strongest planet is the Sun.

Hi again Fly.

Quote:
Thanks again
You're welcome.
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Unread 04-24-2007, 02:03 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Hi Yoi.



The strongest planet in your chart then is the Sun.

The Sun is in his day triplicity in Sagittarius, and angular in the seventh, giving him a decent measure of power to act upon his latent strength, and as there are no other planets with stronger essential and accidental dignity combined, the Sun is Lord of the Geniture for you.

We see that Venus is also in her triplicity, but because she is in a succedent house, she hasn't as much power to act as the angular Sun.

Mercury has the minor dignity of term, but is cadent.

So for you Yoi, your strongest planet is the Sun.

Hi again Fly.



You're welcome.
Thanks Draco!

I'm not sure what it means by the Sun being the strongest planet though. For example Saturn being the strongest planet I guess means that you are strong in discipline and hard work. However, the Sun is the self right? I guess that means I am good at relying on myself and being strong and independent? But it's in the 7th house which means I should rely on others? The 7th house doesn't seem like a good place for the Sun...

Also if it's not too much, if you have time, I hope you can comment on the strength of Jupiter. According to Lilly's system Jupiter is the weakest planet in the chart. However according to the System of Hermes it is the strongest. I was wondering how strong Jupiter is in the system that you are using?

Once again thanks!
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Unread 04-24-2007, 05:08 PM
FlyAway FlyAway is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Let's give it a try with this chart

There are three planets that catch my attention.
1) Saturn in Capricorn in the 8th house.
2) Venus in Pisces in the 11th house.
3) Mars in Taurus in the 1st house.

Saturn is in its own sign, which makes it strong, but the 8th house is rather powerless.
Venus is exalted in Pisces in a house of medium strength.
Mars is in detriment in Taurus, which makes Mars weak, but Mars has still the strongest house placement.

My first instinctive guess is that Venus is the Lady of Geniture.
Because of her strong placement in Pisces and I think the 11th house is powerful enough to act.
But since Mars is in the first house, I still have my doubts.

A little experiment.
Let's say the strongest house gets 12 points and the weakest house 1.
The scores of Saturn: domicile +5, 8th house +3 = +8
The scores of Venus: exalted +4, 11th house +8 = +12
The scores of Mars: detriment -5, 1st house +12 = +7
In this case Venus would still be the strongest planet.
And since Mars makes more negative aspects than Venus does, I'll say: Venus is the winner
(To be honest, I haven't had a close look at all aspects, I'm also not sure how important they are to determine the Lord or Lady of a chart.)

Now let's see what the experts have to say

And just like Yoi I'm very curious how the Lord of the Geniture expresses himself in a natal chart.
I know how my Saturn acts as one of the players in my chart, but since I know he's my chart ruler, his influence is probably bigger than I thought.
Same thing for my Moon, my natal moon isn't that bad aspected, so I never considered her as a serious problem.

Last edited by FlyAway; 04-24-2007 at 05:20 PM.
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Unread 04-24-2007, 06:01 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi again Fly.

You correctly identified Venus as the Lady of the Geniture ('geniture', means 'birth' by the way), however, the way in which you went about it wasn't correct, but you're getting the idea.

We see that Venus being exalted, and Saturn being domicile both have lots of essential dignity, and a fair bit of accidental dignity as well as they are both in succedent houses, but as the eighth is a generally unfortunate house we would opt for the more beneficial Venus in the eleventh, because given the choice we must surely go for the benefic in the house of fortune, than the malefic in an unhappy house, and if we refer to our table of essential dignities, we find that Venus is not only exalted, but she is also in her term, between 0 - 8 Pisces:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

About Mars: he may be in the first house, but he is in his sign of exile, so very essentially debilitated, and his first house placement means that he has a great deal of power to enact his malfism in the life of the native, so Mars in this chart is actually the opposite of the Lord of the Geniture, the planet most likely to lead the native astray in life.

Bring up another chart and have another go.

Bear in mind, that in some charts the LoG is incredibly easy to find, in other's it's difficult, and in some, you can be left wondering between two planets such as in my own.

Earlier I said that Saturn was LoG in my chart, I was wrong! It is actually Mars, but this is from when I was convinced it was Saturn and I still haven't quite got the idea out of my head.

You see, in my chart Saturn is in exaltation in Libra, and in the succedent, but unfortunate eighth. Mars is in his domicile and triplicity of Scorpio, and although he is cadent in the ninth, I must give preferance to the ninth over an unfortunate house, as this is supposed to be our 'guiding light', so although Mars has a bit less power to act than Saturn, he is much stronger essentially which makes up for it, although accidental dignity is still very important. It's just as Saturn is unfortunated in the eighth, he is not as reliable a guide to me in life, better Mars, who although having less power to act being cadent, is none the less essentially stronger and more honourably positioned, and so a better candidate to be appointed guardian.

In the whole sign house system, the LoG is most definately Mars, so you see, the house system can sometimes affect the result also.

I suppose different astrologer's would give different opinions on my chart, some would say Saturn, others Mars, and you do encounter charts where it is difficult to choose between two, but you're only supposed to have one, but when it is close, it's as well to consdier the influence of both of them.

How lucky am I to have both malefic planets lording over my chart.

Oh well! No wonder I chose 'Draco', which is Latin for 'the devil'. (I do miss that devil smiley).
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  #20  
Unread 04-24-2007, 06:35 PM
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Yoi,

Quote:
However according to the System of Hermes it is the strongest.
Not true! I said he was one of the planets fit enough to be Kurios. There are several officers under the captain all performing their relevant functions in guiding ones life to its destiny. The ship owner controls where destiny is and the captain runs the ship which decides how it gets there (the course).

In ancient times ones life was described as a voyage where the asc is the steering, his ruler the steersman, the Lot of Fortune the look out and Kurios is the captain (others too) but it seems people want the 'easy' lazy answer without using ones brain. I see you all prefer the numbers of Lilly even though he has 'no number' for THE most important natal considerations - the sect light and its ruler. Way to go Lilly...

Bye
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Unread 04-24-2007, 07:37 PM
FlyAway FlyAway is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Hi again Fly.

You correctly identified Venus as the Lady of the Geniture ('geniture', means 'birth' by the way), however, the way in which you went about it wasn't correct, but you're getting the idea.

We see that Venus being exalted, and Saturn being domicile both have lots of essential dignity, and a fair bit of accidental dignity as well as they are both in succedent houses, but as the eighth is a generally unfortunate house we would opt for the more beneficial Venus in the eleventh, because given the choice we must surely go for the benefic in the house of fortune, than the malefic in an unhappy house, and if we refer to our table of essential dignities, we find that Venus is not only exalted, but she is also in her term, between 0 - 8 Pisces:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html
Thanks for you insight, Draco.
I admit, I've been too creative in my analysis, because I wasn't sure what's more important, the dignity of a planet or the house it's in.
I also wasn't sure how to read "the terms of planets" and "the face of planets".
But the numbers behind a planet stand for the degrees, I guess
Yes, that's right:

Quote:
The sixth column shows the degrees where rulership by face transfers. That is, Mars rules the first ten degree of Aries, from 0°00' - 9°59'; the Sun rules rules from 10°00' - 19°59 Aries.
I slowly...very slowly...getting it
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  #22  
Unread 04-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Yoi,



Not true! I said he was one of the planets fit enough to be Kurios. There are several officers under the captain all performing their relevant functions in guiding ones life to its destiny. The ship owner controls where destiny is and the captain runs the ship which decides how it gets there (the course).

In ancient times ones life was described as a voyage where the asc is the steering, his ruler the steersman, the Lot of Fortune the look out and Kurios is the captain (others too) but it seems people want the 'easy' lazy answer without using ones brain. I see you all prefer the numbers of Lilly even though he has 'no number' for THE most important natal considerations - the sect light and its ruler. Way to go Lilly...

Bye
Hi Bob

Ah sorry for misunderstanding you! I think the problem is with definitions and the ambiguity of the English language. "Fit to be Captain", "strongest planet" and also "control the course" and "guiding light" sound like basically the same thing. However I suspect now that it is basically like say psychology where for example where common English words like "ego" have precise definitions not necessarily the same as used in basic English discourse. What *is* the difference between the roles of the "strongest" planet in the Lilly system and being the "Captain" of the ship of life in the System of Hermes? The way they are described sounds makes their role seem vaguely similar but from what you say there are clear differences. Help! I am very confused!

Come to think of it, I'm not even sure *what* the Lord of Geniture and Kurios actually do...Can anyone give some examples of how they actually manifest in people's lives using real-life examples?

Very confused. Help!
Yoi

Last edited by Yoi; 04-24-2007 at 07:44 PM.
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  #23  
Unread 04-24-2007, 08:01 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Yoi.

Sorry, I didn't see your last post.

Quote:
I hope you can comment on the strength of Jupiter.
There are four potential candidates for the weakest planet in your chart, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn all of them being peregrine.

Now, Mars and the Moon are slow in motion, which is an accidental debility. Saturn is succedent, which is an somewhat dignified, and fast in motion. The Moon is in the first house, the opposite house to the house of it's rulership, so this is a debility. Apart from being peregrine, Jupiter is angular and succedent, so I wouldn't say he was the weakest.

Of Moon, Mars and Saturn, well, the latter two are malefics, but the Moon is slow as well as opposite it's own house, and in that it is in the first giving it great power to act out it's less desirable qualities, then I'd probably go for the Moon. Then again, consider that Mars is naturally malefic, as well as being conjunct the South Node, so I probably opt for Mars too. So I'd go for Mars/Moon.

I don't suppose seeking out the weakest planets in our chart is the healithiest exercise however. Identifying the LoG is about knowing what essence to draw upon in life in order to conduct yourself appropriately and surpass fate and access destiny.

Hello Bob.

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it seems people want the 'easy' lazy answer without using ones brain.
Which people particularly?

Quote:
I see you all prefer the numbers of Lilly
I take this personally, as I was the one mentioning 'numbers' originally, but it's a teaching aid.

You'll notice I didn't place 'scores' next to the houses, as I'd consider this as would be to reduce it to the level of splitting hairs.

If you read the boards regularly you will have noticed that I am constantly reiterating that Lilly's 'numbers' are a general rule of thumb, a guideline only, to be used with a good dash of common sense, and with 'all things being equal', they are not a mathematical formula. Astrology is not a science, it's an art, it's deals with qualities not quantities.

The 'numbers' come in handy when you are trying to put across a concept to a person who is unfamiliar with it, about how to identify the Lord of the Geniture. That's why it's a teaching aid. It always was. When that person has become familiar with the concept, they may find that the 'numbers' become less and less necessary as a reference.

To have done otherwise would certainly have made it a more complicated task to explain things that it would need to be.

You call people 'lazy', but you know yourself that there is so much astro-trash out there, that it is hard to find the real gems of wisdom amidst it all. If they were lazy they wouldn't be asking questions out of a desire to learn.

I am always, always trying to point out about the way in which people follow Lilly's rules as if they are strictures and foolproof formulae, they are not, they are broad guidelines to be used with common sense, and a mixture of 'discretion with art'.

Yes, there are those that think that Lilly's numbers are a mathematical formula, but these tend to be the less imaginative types that would make better astronomers, or those, who through no fault of their own, are simply ignorant of this fact. So then teach them, persuade them, share in what you know, but don't berate them.

It's like those who think that if the Moon is void, or if the ascendant is early, that this disqualifies interpretation in a horary. Not true! These are examples of 'considerations before judgement', not 'strictures before not bothering to judge at all', but this misinterpretation is most often propounded by those whose careful studies of Lilly have never extended quite so far as reading any of his work.

It's just I don't appreciate being tarred with the wrong brush.
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  #24  
Unread 04-24-2007, 08:19 PM
Yoi Yoi is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco
Hi Yoi.

Sorry, I didn't see your last post.



There are four potential candidates for the weakest planet in your chart, the Moon, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn all of them being peregrine.

Now, Mars and the Moon are slow in motion, which is an accidental debility. Saturn is succedent, which is an somewhat dignified, and fast in motion. The Moon is in the first house, the opposite house to the house of it's rulership, so this is a debility. Apart from being peregrine, Jupiter is angular and succedent, so I wouldn't say he was the weakest.

Of Moon, Mars and Saturn, well, the latter two are malefics, but the Moon is slow as well as opposite it's own house, and in that it is in the first giving it great power to act out it's less desirable qualities, then I'd probably go for the Moon. Then again, consider that Mars is naturally malefic, as well as being conjunct the South Node, so I probably opt for Mars too. So I'd go for Mars/Moon.

I don't suppose seeking out the weakest planets in our chart is the healithiest exercise however. Identifying the LoG is about knowing what essence to draw upon in life in order to conduct yourself appropriately and surpass fate and access destiny.
Hi Draco,

Thanks! However I think you got some details wrong. Jupiter is in Virgo so is in detriment not peregrine and Mars is conjunct the N. Node not the S. Node.

Anyway, I am honestly not trying to just "add numbers up". One thing that bothered me about Lilly is can you *really* add up all of that stuff with pluses and minuses anyway? Essential dignity and accidental dignity seem to be two very different things for example but Lilly's system treats them as if they are the same. Apples and Oranges so to speak. However, well, it is the most known system, the easiest one to find information on the internet and I am still learning (and very confused!). Hey, you have to admit, it's a step up from the "Lord of the Chart is the ruler of the Ascendant" method that is often cited. Basically it boils down to:

1. What "type" of strength/weakness do different factors represent? For example Mars conjunct N. Node would be a different "type" of strength than say Mars in dignity (Aries) or Mars conjunct the IC as the "strength" of Mars would likely manifest in different ways. How do you compare the relative ranking of different types of strength/weaknesses? Even if you have equal amounts of strengths and weaknesses they wouldn't mean the strengths and weaknesses disappear. You would still feel them I guess.

2. Assuming you work out (1) - it is also a question of how *much* strength and weakness change as you go up and down with ranking. Most people seem to use a basic linear scale but is that really true?

3. Definitions! I am really confused on this point. What is the difference between "Kurios" and "Lord of Geniture"?

Last edited by Yoi; 04-24-2007 at 08:36 PM.
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  #25  
Unread 04-24-2007, 08:47 PM
Draco Draco is offline
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Re: How do you work out how strong a planet is?

Hi Fly and Yoi.

Here are some links that might take both of your interests.

Quote:
Thanks for you insight, Draco.
You're very welcome.

Quote:
the dignity of a planet or the house it's in.
Very basically, look for the planets with the greatest essential dignity, and then find out which one has the most accidental dignity so that it can make the most of it's latent strength.

Quote:
I slowly...very slowly...getting it
You will get it, you will, it will become semi-automatic eventually. I find the table of dignities invaluable. The transpersonals don't come into the scheme of dignities, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are not interesting or valuable, it just means they don't come into the table of dignities. Personally, I'm fine with that idea, as I see the transpersonals as a different 'species' of planet, a higher order, so I have no qualms about treating them completely differently.

Do you have another chart to have a go at? Try again and see how you do.

Quote:
Can anyone give some examples of how they actually manifest in people's lives using real-life examples?
Here is a link regarding the LoG, George Patton and Charles Manson.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/geniture.html

Oh, and here are some links about essential and accidental dignity, which is incredibly useful to know about far beyond the purpose of finding the strongest of the chart:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

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