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  #1  
Unread 02-16-2007, 04:52 AM
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What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

Frisian,

You said:
Quote:
I have always understood Gemini, as the first mental sign, to represent mental intellect in its basic form. The thought, the Questioning, the curiousity, the differentiation, the comparison of dualities, via the written and/or spoken word in order to LEARN and DEVELOP one's mental qualities through GENERAL KNOWLEDGE of basic school principles. IMHO applying the detail is the next stage of that development, through Virgo as second mutable sign. The scattered thoughts/ideas of Gemini get placed in their separate compartments marked useful and/or useless and are given defining form. Those considered useful go on to be expanded upon and given specialisation through Sagittarius; the useless is forgotten. IMHO, one can learn but not necessarily understand WHAT one has learnt. It's Sagittarius that provides that understanding that is then given the identification of SPECIALISED KNOWLEDGE.

...Gemini is renowned for knowing a little about a lot and will change its mind according to whichever way the wind is blowing, whilst Sagattarius knows a lot about something in its particular field that it will continue to expand, progress and improve upon. That's why they are opposites on the same axis. IMHO.
You bring up some interesting points that were taking me far away from the original subject, so I created a new thread to discuss this. The basic issue is:
What is Gemini energy? Specialized or General?
What is Sagittarius energy? Specialized or General?

You believe Gemini is General, while Sagittarius is Specialized.
I believe the opposite, that Gemini is Specialized, while Sagittarius is General.

Your point is that Gemini is about our basic ability to learn, and an interest in knowing is, by its nature, general.

I disagree with this point. If we think of the signs as symbolic of the birth and death of a person (go with me here! ), So Aries (the first sign) is the time when we are just born and just becoming aware of ourselves; Taurus is the time later, when we become aware of our physical body; and Gemini is the time when we begin to become aware of our own thoughts. This awareness is HIGHLY specialized since we are literally learning how to think. So we look at EVERY detail of our thought and focus inwardly on our awareness in order that we most fully understand what it is we need to know. We can see this process as an "inner thinking": thinking deeply, inwardly about our own ideas.

Now if we look at the chart as a whole, there is a top and a bottom. Gemini is on the bottom (inner world), and Sagittarius is (as you mention), exactly opposite it at the top (outer world). Where Gemini is all about our inner, detailed awareness, Sagittarius energy is about "outer world" thinking. About opening up to ALL the possibilities of thought...not just our own, personal, specialized point of view, but the views of all the OTHER people out there who have their own thoughts and opinions. Instead of drilling down into some specialized point, Sagittarius "throws it out there" into the world to look into as many possibilities as possible.

And that is my two cents!

Continuing the dialogue (because the "truth is out there" ),

Tim

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Last edited by wilsontc; 02-16-2007 at 04:09 PM.
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Unread 02-16-2007, 05:27 AM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

Wilson, My Sun is in Gemini (On the cusp of Gemini/Cancer

in the 12th house.


My pas Fortunae is in Gemini at the 29th degree (12th house) also.

My Amor is in Gemini at the 29th degree also (12th house)


My Mercury is in Gemini in the 11th house.



What do you think?
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Unread 02-16-2007, 10:41 AM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

Hi again Tim,

You wrote:
Quote:
You believe Gemini is General, while Sagittarius is Specialized.
I believe the opposite, that Gemini is Specialized, while Sagittarius is Specialized.
Do I detect a Freudian slip in there ?

Quote:
Your point is that Gemini is about our basic ability to learn, and an interest in knowing is, by its nature, general.

I disagree with this point. If we think of the signs as symbolic of the birth and death of a person (go with me here! ), So Aries (the first sign) is the time when we are just born and just becoming aware of ourselves; Taurus is the time later, when we become aware of our physical body; and Gemini is the time when we begin to become aware of our own thoughts. This awareness is HIGHLY specialized since we are literally learning how to think. So we look at EVERY detail of our thought and focus inwardly on our awareness in order that we most fully understand what it is we need to know. We can see this process as an "inner thinking": thinking deeply, inwardly about our own ideas.

I am running along side you and agree totally with you that the signs are relevant of individual stages of a continual process of life. But when we get to Gemini our paths take different directions.

I know our different sides of the same fence axis refers to the signs but if I might just add their rulerships which, after all, do all the work for them.

One of my first ever astro. questions on an internet forum was 'The Mercury Function', and when and if Mercury stopped and handed over to Jupiter. I 'believe' (Mercury in 9th!) this to be the difference. Mercury never stops functioning as the information gatherer; it just continues to work at a level that 'feeds' Jupiter, according to Jupiter's level of 'knowledge gained'.

If you take Gemini as the first sign of mental intellect, you are also thinking in terms of basics. From the first moment that a baby yells it is taking in air to individually breathe as a human being. From the moment it grabs the teat and *****, it is LEARNING how to feed. Very soon that learning becomes personal KNOWLEDGE through which its physical growth occurs. It isn't Gemini that refers to growth; it's Sagittarius. The moment Gemini finds the answer to its questioning (Scorpio unknown?), it has passed over its basic realm learning process to Sagittarius's understanding that is then passed on to the world. (For the prevention of any personal ill-feeling from readers, I am speaking of the SIGNS and not people.). What Gemini breathes in via mental stimulation of intelligence, Sagittarius breathes out through spiritual understanding of the knowledge. The two work together but have totally different methods in the role of human development. IMHO.

Quote:
Now if we look at the chart as a whole, there is a top and a bottom. Gemini is on the bottom (inner world), and Sagittarius is (as you mention), exactly opposite it at the top (outer world). Where Gemini is all about our inner, detailed awareness, Sagittarius energy is about "outer world" thinking. About opening up to ALL the possibilities of thought...not just our own, personal, specialized point of view, but the views of all the OTHER people out there who have their own thoughts and opinions. Instead of drilling down into some specialized point, Sagittarius "throws it out there" into the world to look into as many possibilities as possible.
We have different perspectives regarding this axis. My take is that a chart is always personal. By the time that human development has reached Sagittarius, it has noticed Libra and Scorpio, which Gemini hasn't, and thus become aware that there are others in its world. It recognises that different people have different ideas, weighs the pro's and con's in consideration of those ideas. It has also learnt the value(s) of others upon it and how these values effect its own way of THINKING. By the time Sagittarius is reached, the thoughts and value(s) of how and what others do, think and feel has had its necessary effect upon the personal development in order that a personal opinion and belief can be formed that fits within Sagittarius's social cadre.

I personally believe there is also difference in whether the signs are in their natural order below or above the horizon. Below the horizon Gemini will learn from personal experience, above the horizon it will be subject to learning through other people's ideas, according to the house realm in which it is placed. Sagittarius likewise where knowledge is concerned.
(The signs in my chart are reverse of their position to the natural horizon.)


Quote:
And that is my two cents!
I'll see yours and raise you 2 more.

Quote:
Continuing the dialogue (because the "truth is out there" ),
Hey! Come on now. Why bring Pisces into it????!!!!!


Frisiangal.
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Unread 02-16-2007, 11:31 AM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc



Now if we look at the chart as a whole, there is a top and a bottom. Gemini is on the bottom (inner world), and Sagittarius is (as you mention), exactly opposite it at the top (outer world). Where Gemini is all about our inner, detailed awareness, Sagittarius energy is about "outer world" thinking. About opening up to ALL the possibilities of thought...not just our own, personal, specialized point of view, but the views of all the OTHER people out there who have their own thoughts and opinions. Instead of drilling down into some specialized point, Sagittarius "throws it out there" into the world to look into as many possibilities as possible.

And that is my two cents!

Continuing the dialogue (because the "truth is out there" ),

Tim
Have a problem with yr reasoning

Gem is an Air sign... Air is among other stuff, communication, relations, so relating to other people and also their thoughts...
Sag is a Fire sign... Fire most individual, self centered (i mean this is a neutal way) element...
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Unread 02-16-2007, 03:13 PM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

There is truth both ways looking at these signs. I always take Gemini as the "lower mind" and Saggitarius as the "higher mind". Both minds think and talk and communicate but I see the higher mind as having learned some lessons, become wise, phylosophical and a wider interest in how other people communicate,how other cultures live.(less self-centered). The 3rd house is where we are still young and have a lot to learn, the 9th has learned through work and relationships and crisis (8th). In this way I see the development of the mind.
But a Gemini can write and speak with great insight and expertise about a subject and a Saggittarius can be spacious and utopian, just having grand ideas and no expertise. It all depends on the rest of the chart and the aspects. I dont think that you can say: "OK, Gemini is below the horizon, so it is not really interested in other people and Saggitarius being above the horizon is interested in other people". Gemini are incredibly communicative and for cummunication you simply NEED other people. Saggitarius, often being far more phylosophical, actually could be much more of a loner (and opposite to what I wrote above, self-centered!) and not so inclined to go out and meet people like Gemini does. So this above and below the horizon goes to a certain extend. I always look at how many planets are below or above the horizon in order to determine extrovertism and introvertism and then you get all sorts of mixed outcomes, introverted Gemini or Sag., extroverted Gemini or Sag. The rules in Astrology, as far as you can speak about rules, are that the Gemini mind is the basic learning mind and Saggitarius is the mind that then forms it's ideologies about what it has learned or you can see it as schoolbank learning experiences versus life experiences. Whatever way you look at it, both are connected and the one cannot live without the other.
Truth is that the one cannot live without the other.
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Unread 02-16-2007, 04:00 PM
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thinking, to Sweet

Sweet,

You asked:
Quote:
My Sun is in Gemini...
My pas Fortunae is in Gemini...
My Amor is in Gemini...
My Mercury is in Gemini
Since all these energies and the part are in the sign of "Thinking" (Gemini), I think thinking is important for you to think about!

Thinking it out,

Tim
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Unread 02-16-2007, 04:01 PM
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in and out, to Pixie

Pixie,

You said:
Quote:
this notion seems to be pretty clearly illustrated in the Gemini- Sagittarius symbolism. Imagine a person with their arms at their side, keeping themselves in. Now, imagine them opening up to the world with arms reaching out.
I LOVE this!

Loving it,

Tim
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Unread 02-16-2007, 04:08 PM
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Gemini, to Belgian

Belgian,

You said:
Quote:
Gem is an Air sign... Air is among other stuff, communication, relations, so relating to other people and also their thoughts...
Sag is a Fire sign... Fire most individual, self centered (i mean this is a neutal way) element...
I like to think of "Air" as "Social" (this idea comes from Steven Arroyo). So Gemini is a SOCIAL sign. The challenge is, since Gemini hasn't yet developed an awareness of others, Gemini is Social with ITSELF and this causes Social Learning (more on this at Step 4 in the link below).

Continuing this method, Sagittarius is about Identity Learning...opening up to who we are by learning more about the world around us. So Sagittarius is definitely NOT self centered in any way. Sagittarius is associated with the 9th house, Sagittarius is WAY out there, this is why Sagittarius is always associated with "far travel" because it is NOT self-centered.

I suggest instead of "Fire" you think of this as "Identity" energy. Then making the distinction between self and other (Sagittarius is DEFINITELY about "other") will not be as challenging to fully understand.

About Social and Identity,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 02-16-2007 at 05:03 PM.
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Unread 02-16-2007, 04:46 PM
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information gathering, to Frisian

Frisian,

You said:
Quote:
Do I detect a Freudian slip in there ?...Mercury never stops functioning as the information gatherer; it just continues to work at a level that 'feeds' Jupiter, according to Jupiter's level of 'knowledge gained'...From the moment it grabs the teat and *****, it [a baby] is LEARNING how to feed. Very soon that learning becomes personal KNOWLEDGE...The moment Gemini finds the answer to its questioning...Sagittarius breathes out through spiritual understanding of the knowledge...a chart is always personal. By the time that human development has reached Sagittarius, it has noticed Libra and Scorpio, which Gemini hasn't, and thus become aware that there are others in its world. It recognises that different people have different ideas, weighs the pro's and con's in consideration of those ideas
No, just a typo (now corrected)!

For those trying to follow along with this , see the chart in Step 5 in the link below.

We agree on everything except the conclusions you draw from this. Let's take a look at your points:

A baby LEARNS how to grab the teat and suck and this is symbolic of Gemini thinking energy. And HOW does it learn? By focusing its ENTIRE attention on the task. By becoming a SPECIALIST in what is the best way, the most efficient way, the most reliable way to get milk from the breast. The baby does not move on to wonder about OTHER breasts, but instead SPECIALIZES in this task.

As you say, Mercury (ruler of Gemini) "never stops" as an information gatherer. It finds one subject or area of interest and just keeps gathering and gathering information. Mercury SPECIALIZES in this area of interest and tries to find out everything about it.

Now we look at Jupiter (ruler of Sagittarius). Sagittarius ALREADY HAS the information it gained from the "Gemini thinking process". So Sagittarius can think of OTHER things than just the details Gemini provides. It not only becomes aware that there "are others in its world...different people have different ideas, weighs the pro's and con's in consideration of those ideas" but it ALSO realizes there are other SUBJECTS in this world, other things to think about. And so it gathers all these specializations and puts them together to look at things from a GENERAL, world view.

The "spiritual understanding" of Sagittarius comes from looking at the big, GENERAL picture of the world. The "knowledge" of Sagittarius comes from looking at anything and everything, not for the details, but to see how everything fits into everything else. Sagittarius goes BEYOND specialized knowledge into GENERAL knowledge of the world and how it works.

True, a chart is always personal, since each person is "locked into" their personal point of view of the world, which the chart symbolizes. But some people try to look OUTSIDE themselves and others only look INSIDE themselves. To put all this into perspective, I look at the zodiac from a birth to death point of view:

The signs (in order from 1-12) are about the journey all of us take from birth to death.

We come into existence of ourselves when we first become aware of our BEING (Aries). With time we come into an awareness that we have a PHYSICAL body (Taurus). Over a little more time we become aware of being aware and discover that we are THINKING (Gemini). Eventually our awareness of our BEING, PHYSICAL, and THINKING come together into an awareness of being in a certain place, our HOME (Cancer).

We develop and awareness of our HOME (Cancer) over time and, as we become comfortable in our home we begin to test out our SELF-EXPRESSSION (Sun). However, we discover that it takes a lot of working and reworking through DAILY WORK (Virgo) to perfect our self-expression. All of this work on HOME, SELF-EXPRESSION, and DAILY WORK is to prepare ourselves for RELATIONSHIPS (Libra).

After we understand who we are, we meet the outside world and make RELATIONSHIPS (Libra) in an effort to understand who these other people are around us. With time we meet special people who help develop and cause TRANSFORMATION (Scorpio) in us through our contact with them. Out of this transformation comes an EXPANSION (Sagittarius) of our world as we learn and grow our knowledge of others. Over time our RELATIONSHIPS, TRANSFORMATION, and EXPANSION develop and grow until we get a sense of our DUTY (Capricorn) to the world at large.

At this time we are adults, and know that we can not simply do what we want all the time, instead we have a DUTY (Capricorn) to others to take our self-awareness and ability to interact to help structure the world around us. Over time we meet other people who have similar duties and responsibilities who become our FRIENDS (Aquarius). These friends also have ideas of their own how we can restructure the world around us and so improve it. With repeated restructurings the barriers around us begin to collapse until we realize that nothing separates us from other people except our own self-created barriers. As we tear down those final barriers between us and others we discover SPIRITUALITY (Pisces). But, while we are tearing down these barriers we are also destroying the rules and regulations of which we set our life. Over time, this destruction of the structures around us becomes a destruction of our bodies, and we die.

If we believe in reincarnation, Pisces leads directly to Aries, where we are reborn, and begin the cycle of life and death all over again.

So, instead of thinking of Gemini as a separate sign and Sagittarius as a separate sign, instead I think of it as a part of the whole cycle of birth and death, so that the Gemini specialized information naturally flows into the Sagittarius general knowledge world view.

In the flow,

Tim
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Unread 02-16-2007, 05:02 PM
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energy, to starlink

starlink,

Just to be clear, I am ONLY talking about the nature of "Gemini" energy. In many situations, talking about sign energy does NOT directly relate to real life. Signs are only PART of the whole. Planets, houses, and aspects need to be considered in order to fully understand HOW Gemini energy is being used. However, when you say Gemini energy is about "others", there I disagree. Gemini energy is about BECOMING aware of others, the constant questioning and socializing is an attempt to LEARN about others. Remember that Gemini is the "self" focus that is right before the "other" focus of Cancer (for a picture of this see Step 5 in link below, for a more in-depth description of how this works see the "birth to death" discussion at the end of my reply to Frisian). So Gemini energy is about DISCOVERING who WE are so we can better be prepared to meet and be with others.

In general, people with a lot of Gemini energy will tend to want to talk and think a lot. TALKING is "self-centered" since it is the person themselves talking. LISTENING is "other-focused" since in order to listen someone ELSE has to be talking. Looked at this way, Sagittarius energy is more about LISTENING to the world around us (since it is more "other" focused). However, since "other" focused Sagittarius energy is right before the "self" focus of Capricorn, the "other" focus of Sagittarius is a way to learn how to become more knowledgably "self" focused.

Talking and listening,

Tim
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Unread 02-16-2007, 07:45 PM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

I think to much. Sometiems I tlel myself, alright stop it already.


Even in the shower I think
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Unread 02-16-2007, 11:46 PM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

Hi again Tim,

I have to agree with Belgianmoonguy's remark. Gemini is Air (abstract mental), Sagittarius is fire (abstract Spiritual). Fire does not think, it acts. I guess the answer to our different perspectives could be that Gemini works through mind and Sagittarius through spirit. Imho there's no power of THOUGHT within Sagittarius, just as there is no power of REASONING (through understanding) within Gemini. Gemini listens to learn, Sagittarius preaches to profess. That said, I agreed with you that each sign is 'specialised' in its own manner through the characteristics of the sign, although I may have used other words than yours to say so. As I said elsewhere, their joint axis is to enable one to aid the other.

I would disagree that Gemini is a 'social' sign. How can it be when its nature is entirely personal? It's not 'OUR' thought process, it's 'MY' thought process where Gemini is concerned. It is learning to relate to others by the power of an ability to communicate, not socialiase with them. Similarly, it's the 3rd house that deals with ímmediate environment. A person isn't even aware of another's effect upon them until the 7th-8th houses, and 'socialising' can surely only begin with the 9th house when one becomes aware of the big wide, world out there that contains more than 2 people. Put Gemini in the 7th-8th house and it is learning to relate in a private relationship, put it in the 9th-12th houses and it is learning to relate on a 'social' level ....(says she with Gemini on Placidus 10th ).

It must be my Mercury in Taurus 9th that makes me dig in my heels..and it's retro. to boot. I guess what we really need now is lots of examples of how one's Gemini-Sagittarius axis works for them so that we can get some proof from all the theory .

Frisiangal.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 05:10 AM
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Gemini, to Frisian

Frisian,

You said:
Quote:
I would disagree that Gemini is a 'social' sign. How can it be when its nature is entirely personal? It's not 'OUR' thought process, it's 'MY' thought process where Gemini is concerned. It is learning to relate to others by the power of an ability to communicate, not socialiase with them.
I'll go along with your first paragraph, Gemini is more about thought while Sagittarius is about reasoning out the big picture of things. And I even agree with your second paragraph, in that Gemini is NOT about being "social". However, it is about LEARNING to be Social, about developing a social awareness. Which is why I like Arroyo's system of calling Gemini energy "Social Learning" energy. Gemini energy is learning how to think, but, in order for these thoughts to MEAN anything, there has to be something or someone out there to test them out on. So Gemini is LEARNING about Social awareness, but is not quite there yet. This all fits in with Gemini being an "inner world" sign.

Socially thinking,

Tim
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Unread 02-17-2007, 06:13 AM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

As someone who has a heavily emphasized Gemini-Sagittarius polarity in their chart (Sagittarius Sun, Gemini Ascendant, Gemini 1st house Moon, Sag. Neptune - not a personal planet but it is almost exactly opposing the Gemini Moon, Sag. Part of Fortune) not to mention a heavily emphasized Virgo (Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, North Node in Virgo) I'd just to add my two cents in about my personal experience.

Both Sagittarius and Gemini are about ideas. However Sagittarius is about framework. That is the underlying general principles that rule the universe and existence - religion, philosophy, spirituality etc. It is about the widest most general ideas. Even the Sagittarius emphasis on justice which I share can be seen in this light because justice is about the idea that there is balance in the universe, that evil-doers are punished and the innocent are avenged and protected. Basically the idea that there are rules, principles, some sort of order that the universe follows and not just say plain chaos.

Gemini is about gathering information, learning. I enjoy learning new things. I enjoy going through textbooks and doing questions. I analyze everything, including emotions (no surprise with a Gemini moon...). However it doesn't necessarily need to mean anything. It is enjoying learning new things for the sake of learning new things. Obtaining information for the sake of obtaining information etc. etc. Does it matter whether it is about quantum mechanics or learning the ins and outs of the newest computer game or learning another language? Learning is pleasure.

About the social aspect of Gemini - when I talk to people I become very Gemini like (I talk a lot, very cute and cheerful) but I have little desire to mingle with large groups or to horrors of horrors, socialize. What Gemini is about I think is communication of ideas. I love communicating about ideas whether through writing or speech. However a social butterfly moving through a crowd pressing hands does not do much communication of ideas. Meeting someone at a party and getting into a half hour discussion about X is communication of ideas. Personally I don't think either Gemini or Sagittarius are good at listening. My Gemini side likes to talk a mile a minute about my latest idea (the idea is to communicate your knowledge to other people not necessarily the other way round...) and my Sagittarius side wants to pontificate. Actually now that I think about it I'm not really sure that Gemini wants to communicate so much as it is that mind and mouth are the same. Thinking is talking and talking is thinking basically. Regardless I often have an idea and just have to tell someone *right now*. Thought is speech (or writing). Similarly I often get my best ideas when I'm in the middle of talking to someone. Somehow the act of talking helps me think. Speech is thought. Solitary contemplation is not so great. However it's not communication as in 2-way exchange of information. I can easily replicate the "atmosphere" by talking to plain air.

Of course the ideal thing is to have Gemini and Sagittarius support each other with Gemini feeding information to help Sagittarius with its framework and Sagittarius providing guidance to Gemini so it actually does something useful instead of say spending hours and hours learning the likes and dislikes of every single character on its latest favourite TV show...(not that I would know from personal experience of course...).

My Virgo emphasis I think is the reason for my love of categorizing and arranging things. I am the sort of person who will happily spend hours sorting through things and putting them in alphabetical order

I wonder if the whole mutable cross should be considered the "information cross" or the "mind cross". As a child (Gemini), you collect information (somewhat indiscriminately). As a young adult (Virgo) you sort and organize the information you collect into some coherent categories. As you get older and hit your middle-aged crisis you start trying to work out what on earth does this all mean? Get the now categorized information, start throwing out the stuff you recognize is trivial and organizing the rest into some coherent world view to put some order into chaos and create the framework in which you and what you have experienced of the world so far can be put. Then after experiencing the larger masses and public as an old man/woman you try to work out the spiritual meaning of your framework (Pisces). Gemini and Virgo are both ruled by Mercury (information collecting and collating) and Pisces and Sagittarius are both ruled by Jupiter (taking aforementioned information and working out its meaning).

I have Mercury/Uranus conjunct in Scorpio and I find that lends itself to an entirely different thought process.

Last edited by Yoi; 02-17-2007 at 08:23 AM.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 09:40 AM
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Re: Gemini, to Frisian

Quote:
Originally Posted by wilsontc
Frisian,

You said:


I'll go along with your first paragraph, Gemini is more about thought while Sagittarius is about reasoning out the big picture of things. And I even agree with your second paragraph, in that Gemini is NOT about being "social". However, it is about LEARNING to be Social, about developing a social awareness. Which is why I like Arroyo's system of calling Gemini energy "Social Learning" energy. Gemini energy is learning how to think, but, in order for these thoughts to MEAN anything, there has to be something or someone out there to test them out on. So Gemini is LEARNING about Social awareness, but is not quite there yet. This all fits in with Gemini being an "inner world" sign.

Socially thinking,

Tim
Ah! NOW I understand. Stephen Arroyo .

Frisiangal.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 10:45 AM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

[quote=Yoi]
Quote:
.... Sagittarius is about framework. That is the underlying general principles that rule the universe and existence - religion, philosophy, spirituality etc. It is about the widest most general ideas. Even the Sagittarius emphasis on justice which I share can be seen in this light because justice is about the idea that there is balance in the universe, that evil-doers are punished and the innocent are avenged and protected. Basically the idea that there are rules, principles, some sort of order that the universe follows and not just say plain chaos.
Thanks Yoi. This explanation has enabled me to grasp what Tim was implying and meant when referring to Sagittarius's expansion of general ideas.

Your post was very educational as well as entertaining and clearly showed that you know what you are talking about.

I know that one shouldn't generalise but one of my best learning examples of the coordination within and/or difference between the Gemini-Sagittarius axis is my Gemini Sun sister. She was always called 'scatter brain', which left her with a feeling of being unintelligent when 'inside' she knew she wasn't. She once admitted that she would have liked to have gone on to further (her) education, but family funds were such that her pay packet was more the priority. She loves word puzzles and (intelligence) games....can still finish the Times crossword in less than 20 mintes, surrounded by half a dozen different types of dictionary. She has a very wide vocabulary and can sell a car salesman his own car.
In her 40's, she felt the need to 'test' her I.Q and it turned out that she was within the 8% bracket of top MENSA individuals. Yet her knowledge remains truly general. E.g. She knows what a dolphin is and even that it smiles, and that's as far as it goes. She knows there's a legal system, but not the ins and outs of how it functions. She can tell a joke that has you in stiches of laughter with her mannerisms of a foreign gentleman, yet she would have difficulty finding his country of birth on a world map. She's one of the most intelligent people I know, yet she herself admits that she is not knowledgeable. Whilst doing the crossword she still forgets she's put the potatoes on the boil until she smells them burning. She's never lost her knick-name.

F.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 03:33 PM
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Re: What is Gemini and Sagittarius?

[QUOTE=Frisiangal]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoi


Thanks Yoi. This explanation has enabled me to grasp what Tim was implying and meant when referring to Sagittarius's expansion of general ideas.

Your post was very educational as well as entertaining and clearly showed that you know what you are talking about.

I know that one shouldn't generalise but one of my best learning examples of the coordination within and/or difference between the Gemini-Sagittarius axis is my Gemini Sun sister. She was always called 'scatter brain', which left her with a feeling of being unintelligent when 'inside' she knew she wasn't. She once admitted that she would have liked to have gone on to further (her) education, but family funds were such that her pay packet was more the priority. She loves word puzzles and (intelligence) games....can still finish the Times crossword in less than 20 mintes, surrounded by half a dozen different types of dictionary. She has a very wide vocabulary and can sell a car salesman his own car.
In her 40's, she felt the need to 'test' her I.Q and it turned out that she was within the 8% bracket of top MENSA individuals. Yet her knowledge remains truly general. E.g. She knows what a dolphin is and even that it smiles, and that's as far as it goes. She knows there's a legal system, but not the ins and outs of how it functions. She can tell a joke that has you in stiches of laughter with her mannerisms of a foreign gentleman, yet she would have difficulty finding his country of birth on a world map. She's one of the most intelligent people I know, yet she herself admits that she is not knowledgeable. Whilst doing the crossword she still forgets she's put the potatoes on the boil until she smells them burning. She's never lost her knick-name.

F.

I must admit that I don't have those sort of problems. While I study a wide variety of subjects I can concentrate on all of them well . And while I am a scatter-brain (you should see my workspaces...) I am generally seen as responsible and serious. Fortunately my flakiness is seen more as a charming eccentricity than anything serious and I have to admit it does have its advantages at times though I think that might be more due to my Venus...I guess it depends on the condition of Mercury. My Mercury is supported by both Uranus (conjunction) and Saturn (sextile) and is in a fixed sign (Scorpio). Also Saturn trines my Gemini Ascendant. Hey it looks like Saturn does come in useful sometimes...

Last edited by Yoi; 02-17-2007 at 04:07 PM.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 04:14 PM
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Gemini and Sagittarius only, to Frisian

Frisian,

We finally understand each other! Yay! Happy Mercury retrograde, by the way! The challenge, as always, in these thought experiments is to look at an impossible situation...what is a sign, planet, house by ITSELF. In real life a sign, planet, house is NEVER by itself, but always occurs in the context of the chart.

And, of course as is usual in Mercury retrograde times, we are using the same word a different way. Your sisters Gemini situation seems to me like the type of "details" and "specialization" I associate with Gemini: getting so close to the trees that she can't see the forest. She knows all SORTS of specific details about things, but lacks a general framework to put them in. The general knowledge of the "forest" (e.g., knowing about dolphins, the legal system, etc.) is impossible for her to see since she keeps going in closer and closer ("specializing") in the details.

Specializing generally,

Tim
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Last edited by wilsontc; 02-17-2007 at 04:16 PM.
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Unread 02-17-2007, 04:43 PM
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Gemini and Sagittarius, to Yoi

Yoi,

You said:
Quote:
As someone who has...Sagittarius Sun...Gemini 1st house Moon...Gemini is about gathering information...About the social aspect of Gemini...I talk to people...I talk a lot...I have little desire to mingle with large groups or to horrors of horrors, socialize...a social butterfly moving through a crowd pressing hands does not do much communication of ideas. Meeting someone at a party and getting into a half hour discussion about X is communication of ideas. Personally I don't think either Gemini or Sagittarius are good at listening. My Gemini side likes to talk a mile a minute about my latest idea...and my Sagittarius side wants to pontificate...the ideal thing is to have Gemini and Sagittarius support each other with Gemini feeding information to help Sagittarius with its framework and Sagittarius providing guidance to Gemini so it actually does something useful instead of say spending hours and hours learning the likes and dislikes of every single character on its latest favourite TV show...I wonder if the whole mutable cross should be considered the "information cross" or the "mind cross"
Thanks for all this! Great information! To your last point about the "mutable cross" being the "information cross", this is EXACTLY what Stephen Arroyo has done...except he calls "mutable" the LEARNING areas (see Step 4 in link below to see the entire system).

You have given a great overview of how Gemini and Sagittarius energy works. Gemini gets the details ("specializes" in the details) and Sagittarius makes sense of them (makes "generalizations"). However you ARE "socializing". Talking with others or practicing talking to others (talking to yourself) are all ways to get your ideas in some sort of order and to get them "out there" or to prepare to get them out there (when you talk to yourself). A "social butterfly" talking to others about everything DOES communicate ideas, only these ideas are SO highly "specialized" ("scattered" as some call it! ) that only YOU fully understand them. Nevertheless the people you talk to (socialize with) have more information than they had before through their social interconnection with you.

Your Gemini side likes to talk and think at the same time. But your Sagittarius likes to "pontificate". I think by this you mean your Sagittarius side likes to talk knowledgeably about a subject. But, in order to KNOW something, you had to "listen" to something: a book, a movie, a show, you have to have some sort of BASIS for your information...that "structure" you are talking about (for me, its Stephen Arroyo...did you notice that? ). So, as you mention, without a basis for understanding TV (in your example), it just becomes a bunch of personal observations ("specializations") in random details. Only by gathering the opinions of others on television can you learn anything about "television" itself: awareness of the learning OUTSIDE you completes your sense of knowing...personal "Gemini knowing" is NOT enough to make sense of the world.

Pontificating Arroyonically,

Tim
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Unread 02-19-2007, 10:26 AM
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Re: Gemini and Sagittarius, to Yoi

Hi,

I am another Gemini rising and Sun Sag. This axis is further complicated by jupiter on the ascendant and mercuryR Sag opposing a gemini 12H north node.
So my chart ruler is residing with my sun.

With the sun on the descendant I can focus totally on the other person and forget to define my own needs.

*I like to talk but am only comfortable with a one to one situation, or with familiar people. By talking I feel I am processing gathered information.
*I do teach in University (Merc Sag) so I am capable of "preaching".
*I also work as a therapist which involves total awareness of the other, including listening.
*I am an avid reader, astrology, myth, fairytale, spiritual, psychology, religion.
*I live in a foreign country but do not travel OS often. I make many many small journeys locally.
*I need a lot of personal time to process/ comtemplate/meditate all the incoming information.
*I find crowds hard to deal with and difficult to keep my own space intact.
*I have a strong sense of inner belief, yet am insecure and shy socially, but can still act socially and am relatively "popular"
*Some of my main learning experiences at the moment are observing the minutae of life, watching how people act, talk, and taking more time to observe how I feel and act in situations.
*In group work teaching at Uni I am either in observation mode or preaching/doing mode. Information going in and infornmation going out. I dont think it is possible to do both at the same time.

I also have pluto/uranus 4/5H in virgo square my sun. Saturn and Chiron in Pisces. So I do this mutable learning thing a lot, very focusing on learning new things all the time and then how to apply them in day to day life. So consistent with my chart I present a very mental personage to the outside world.

Hope this helps to ground your discussion
Love and Light Flea
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Unread 02-19-2007, 03:52 PM
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Thanks, to Flea

Flea,

Thanks! These are great examples of Gemini-Sagittarius energy!

Thankfully,

Tim
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Unread 02-19-2007, 04:46 PM
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Re: Thanks, to Flea

Yes Flea, very informative and totally descriptive of your Sun and Ascendant. Your Saturn is in the (late?) 10th or on the cusp of the 11th or in the 11th right? That could explain the "not being comfortable in crowd" tendency and the Jupiter on the Ascendant the fact that you can "act" sociably and are popular.Cant imagine the Moonnode in 12 being solely responsible for your shyness.
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Unread 02-19-2007, 10:44 PM
Frisiangal Frisiangal is offline
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Re: Gemini and Sagittarius, to Yoi

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by flea
Hi,

I am another Gemini rising and Sun Sag. This axis is further complicated by jupiter on the ascendant and mercuryR Sag opposing a gemini 12H north node.
So my chart ruler is residing with my sun.

With the sun on the descendant I can focus totally on the other person and forget to define my own needs.


*I do teach in University (Merc Sag) so I am capable of "preaching".

*I live in a foreign country but do not travel OS often. I make many many small journeys locally.

*In group work teaching at Uni I am either in observation mode or preaching/doing mode. Information going in and infornmation going out. I dont think it is possible to do both at the same time.
Hi again Flea,

I can't find the post in which you supplied your chart. I think it interesting how you have managed to combine the retro. Mercury and Jupiter as you have when both are in their detriment signs. I remember a teenage client who had a similar combination, AND in the 3rd/9th houses, and although he had the ability, he just wasn't interested in furthering his education. He left school s.a.p, became a council gardener (Venus in Capricorn). By the time he was in his late 20's he was designing and landscaping private gardens in which he made a small fortune .

Do you teach in a foreign language at university? E.g. English in a foreign school, or the language of the country that is not your own native language?
Or does Mercury work through Virgo's exact sciences?

In a number of charts I've seen with Jupiter in the Ascendant, people have had the definite look that makes them stand out as 'foreign' in the country in which they take up residence. They feel it too. Do you find this? I have a strong 9th house residency and although I have lived abroad for over 40 years, I am still described as 'the English lady' when people do not know me by name.

F.
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Unread 02-20-2007, 04:55 AM
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Re: Gemini and Sagittarius, to Yoi

Hi Fr.

Your client reminds me of my brother, landscape gardener with venus in virgo. I have venus in aquarius in the 9th, so love of philosophical ideas fits.

Here's my chart hopefully...


I teach in an architecturual school. Art is a big thing for me. Never been good at foreign languages, yet strangely my brother speaks about five fluently.

I dont stand out and often people dont realise I am foreign. Oh I just realised Jup is Retro too. Inner belief yet no real external expression of jup on the ascendant.

I am wondering whether the planets in 6thH can be to do with reserve or shyness in reply to starlink's query.

I do find it interesting that both Merc and Jup are in the signs of detriment opposite their exaltation. It looks like it is all mixed up. Though maybe that is an advantage in combining the energies. My relocation chart puts Pluto/Uranus on the ascendant and gem on the MC and Sag on the Nadir. With a 3rd house sun the gem/sag axis is still concerned with my angles.

Love and Light
Flea
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Unread 02-20-2007, 05:03 AM
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Re: Gemini and Sagittarius, to Yoi

Try again with chart
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