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Traditional Astrology For discussions on Traditional Astrology only. (Note: Typically, traditional astrology is defined as using techniques developed prior to 1700 by astrologers from the Hellenistic, Persian, Hebrew, and Renaissance eras. In general, it relies on Ptolemaic aspects (sextile, trine, square, opposition and conjunction) though there may be some exceptions, and always excludes modern planets (Neptune, Uranus and Pluto,) as well as any asteroids. The focus is less on what would be considered modern psychological chart interpretation and more on prediction. Members who wish to explore a combination of traditional and modern ideas should feel free to start a new thread in an appropriate forum for further discussion.)


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  #176  
Unread 12-02-2013, 09:46 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

If we take the Asc. as Hyleg, then the alcochoden is Jupiter. But Jupiter has no Ptolomy aspects, so obviously it can't be alcochoden. Besides, Jupiter is practically on Algol, can it even qualify as such?

I am very very frustrated with this chart...Grrr!

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  #177  
Unread 12-02-2013, 10:07 PM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I think you are complicating the matter a little too much. The person is alive - they have a Hyleg - it can really only be the ASC here since the Sun and the Moon are not in places effective enough to give them this role, and regardless of the zodiac used, Jupiter is the bound lord and aspects the ASC. Algol has very little to do with choosing a Hyleg.
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  #178  
Unread 12-02-2013, 10:50 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
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  #179  
Unread 12-02-2013, 11:12 PM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
There are rules

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hyleg:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.
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  #180  
Unread 12-02-2013, 11:16 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

My quote is from the OP
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnisphericus View Post
This conversation here
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=46232
inspired me to open a thread were I/we would try to say more about this medieval technique of the "Giver of Life" (Hyleg) and the "Giver of Years" (Alcocoden), which according to the medieavls should give the amount of years of life to the native.

I will try firstly to give the example of the Hyleg and Alcocoden in the chart of the recently died pop diva Whitney Houston.

But first lets see what is Hyleg and Alcocoden.

Here is what Bernadettte Brady says about H & A:


So, Hyleg and Alcocoden are showing the Vital Life Force of the native. They show how much years in life do you have according to the 'Esse' or the condition of your body and soul. With the modern medicine it seems out that this Esse is prolonged, but we will see how in the case of Whitney Houston this is almost exact.
If the nativity dies from a serial killer, or a car accident H & A does not count, they do not show the accidents, they show the condition of the body and soul and accordingly how much years one have.

Here is the summary of the planets and points which can be potential Hylegs:

Quote:
In Day charts, we’re looking for the:
• Sun above the horizon in a masculine quarter (11th or 10th), or
• Sun above the horizon in a feminine quarter (7th, 9th) in a masculine sign, or
• Moon below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th, 5th), or
• Moon below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd, 3rd) in a feminine sign

In Night charts, we’re looking for the:
• Moon above the horizon in a feminine quarter (9th, 7th), or
• Moon above the horizon in a masculine quarter (10th, 11th) in a feminine sign, or
• Sun below the horizon in a masculine quarter (1st, 2nd), or
• Sun below the horizon in a feminine quarter (4th or 5th) in a masculine sign


Potential hylegs are the Sun, Moon, Part of Fortune, Asc and SAN. Or instead of using
the PoF, Asc and SAN itself, you are to take the Lord of the place or the Almuten of the
place. Some instructions advise you to look for the Almuten of all these places.
As a general rule, the potential Hyleg must aspect at least one of its dignity rulers.
Ptolemy appears to be the only exception in this, preferring a planet with two or more
dignities and no aspect over a planet in aspect with only one dignity.
Alchabitius rejected the Moon as hyleg if she was under the Sun’s beams. Heliodorus
rejected any planet as hyleg if it was USB (under the sun beams)

The Hyleg is the giver of life. Once it is found, we need to look for the Alcochoden
or giver of years.


(taken from the group Angelicus Merlin).


Lets take the example of Whitney Houston.
Attachment 26865

Her chart is a night chart so we first look for a potential Hyleg in the Moon.
Moon is under the Horizon in a night chart, so it can not be Hyleg.
Then we go to the Sun (in a day chart we first go with the Sun), the Sun is in cadent 6th house so it can not be Hyleg too.
Than we look at the Syzygy, or the last lunation prior the birth. In the Whitney's chart it was a Full Moon prior the birth so the chart is so called Preventional and we take the Pars Fortuna as potential Hyleg.
It is in 4th in Cancer.
We now look at the dispositors to see which dispositor takes the most dignity points at the degree in which the PoF is.
For that reason we take the dignity table, I will use here a table with triplicities according to Dorotheus and terms according to the egiptians.
Domicil ruler takes 5 points, exaltation ruler 4, triplicity ruler 3, term ruler 2 and face ruler 1 point.
Moon, domicil ruler = 5 points
Jupiter exaltation ruler 4 points
Mars, triplicity ruler 3 points
Venus, term ruler 2 points
Venus, face ruler 1 point.

Next we look if the Moon (as having the most points in that degree in which PoF is) is making some classical (conjunction, sextile, square, trine, opposition) aspect to the PoF. She is making a square to the Fortuna but it is in wide orbs (although in the moiety). Jupiter is out of orb. Venus is not in aspect. Mars is making a partile (exact) aspect to the PoF and we will take him instead of the Moon (because it is in partile aspect).

So, Part Of Fortune is a Hyleg in Whitney's chart and Mars is Alcocoden.

Next we look at the years table of the planets potential Alcocodens:
Attachment 26866

We see that the minor years of Mars are 15, Middle Years 40,5 and major years 66.
Mars is angular but in very week sign position (in Exile) so we will take its Middle years (40.5).
Next, we look at the aspects which Mars receives from the benefics and malefics.
If benefic aspects the Alcocoden with Con, sextile or trine adds its minor years as years and its middle years as months, weeks or days (according to the position in which lies).
If Malefic aspects the Alcocoden, subtract from the Alcocoden with its minor years and middle years as months, weeks or days.

Mars is aspecting the other malefic Saturn, but with trine (so this not subtract years because it is benevolent aspect).
Mars is making opposition with Jupiter but out of orb, and with opposition so this does not add to the years.
Mars is making a sextile to Venus and she can add her minor years.
So we add Venus' minor years (8), and her middle years as days (45), because she is cadent and combust. If she was in good position we would add her middle eyars as months.

So we have,
40.5years + 8years + 45 days = 48 years 7 months and 15 days.
Whitney lived 48 years 6 months and 2 days.
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  #181  
Unread 12-03-2013, 04:02 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

For me, I use the Pars hyleg, the Pars Vitae and the Foundation of the Horoscope to determine the hyleg question.
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  #182  
Unread 12-03-2013, 07:45 AM
Konrad Konrad is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
Please don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the input and I may be overcomplicating/overthinking it (not that I'm aware), but I have no idea how you arrived at your conclusion(s). For instance I don't see why you reject both the Sun and Moon as potential Hyleg. Ok on the Moon I am somewhat clearer, for reasons I stated myself (still not sure if my thinking is correct though), but for the Sun I don't really get it: it's in an angular, hence hylegical house; it's exalted; no attacks from malefics, receives the necessary aspect from a planet with essential dignity in the relevant sign (minor, but still)...my only qualm was it being ruler of the 6th house.

To be as short as possible, I would like to know what convinces you that the ascendant should be used as Hyleg?
Because I don't use quadrant houses, so the Sun is in 3rd sign (remember I am not using the Ptolemaic Tropical Zodiac). Again though, the simplest thing would be to use the Sun as the releaser (subject him to Primary Directions) and try to track the native's life from the order of the time-lords - you will soon find your Hyleg.
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  #183  
Unread 12-03-2013, 11:46 AM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

The rules of course. I read the whole thread and I am applying the rules. According to the rules, first look to the Moon in a nocturnal chart. The Moon qualifies: it is above the horizon, 7th house, feminine quarter, aspected by two planets which have dignities in its degree, not USB. Perfect fit, right? But whoops, the Moon is peregrine! Presumably, Hyleg cannot be debilitated, so we must renounce the Moon. Back to the drawing board.

Next we look at the Sun. According to the rules the Sun qualifies: is under the horizon, 1st house, masculine quarter, in aspect with a planet which has dignity in its degree. Even if it had no aspect, Abu Ali states: "When the Sun is chosen as Hyleg and is in Aries or Leo and none of the rulers of the five dignities aspect it, it will be both Hyleg and Alcocoden." That's it then, yes? Well, maybe not. The Sun rules the 6th house, so according to some authors it cannot be Hyleg!

Is this true? I can't seem to find more information on it, so I am ASKING YOU.

For the moment, let's assume it is certain, so the Sun too drops out of the race.

According to Lilly, if neither the Sun nor Moon may be accepted as hyleg then in a nocturnal chart "consider the planet that has most essential dignities in these three places:
-The degree of the Moon in the nativity

-The place of the luminary (Sun or Moon) found above the earth in the Full Moon preceding the nativity

-The place of the Part of Fortune in the nativity
If this planet falls in an hylegiacal house accept it as hyleg.

If not, then use the ascendant if the birth was preceded by a New Moon.

If the birth was preceded by a Full Moon, take the Part of Fortune if it falls in an hylegiacal house; if not, use the ascendant."

If I understand what he is saying here then:
a) in the degree of the Moon most dignity goes to Venus, then Saturn. But Venus is combust, hyleg cannot be debilitated, so we forget about Venus.
b) no need to take the place of the luminary (Sun or Moon) found above the earth in the Full Moon preceding the nativity because the chart is conjunctional.
c) if we were to take the PoF hyleg would be Mercury. But Mercury is retro and USB, so it is debilitated and cannot be hyleg. Besides PoF does not fall into a hylegical house, so it has to be disregarded for that reason as well.

At this point we either accept Saturn as Hyleg, or we look at the Asc.
The planet with most dignity at the degree of the Asc. is convincingly Jupiter. But Jupiter is on Algol. Again we must remember the rule that states the hyleg cannot be hyleg if it is debilitated. Lilly does in fact take Algol in consideration, so Jupiter must be disqualified. Also all the other planets that have dignity in the degree of the Ascendant, as they are either combust or retro, and as such debilitated, hence unacceptable for hyleg.

If I got all this right (which I am not sure of for a single moment), then we are left with Saturn as hyleg. However, Saturn rules the 12th house so it too is unacceptable - according to the rules.

Even if we don't go through all this procedure, we can see right away that in this chart there is not a single planet except the Sun that is not debilitated one way or another. If we stick to the rule that hyleg cannot be debilitated in order to be hyleg we have nothing left to choose from! Except the Sun. But again - the Sun rules the 6th house, so can it even qualify?

At this point I am completely lost. So I am asking YOU to please explain.
Btw, english is not my native language so please forgive my mistakes and ignorance.
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  #184  
Unread 12-03-2013, 12:20 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
At this point I am completely lost. So I am asking YOU to please explain. Btw, english is not my native language so please forgive my mistakes and ignorance.
The best advice I can give for the moment is to ignore house rulerships completely for a time and read charts without them. You may find, like I did, that you don't need them to delineate a person's chart. You may not. Either way, you will have a more subtle grasp of how the planets are managing each person's life.
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  #185  
Unread 12-03-2013, 03:36 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Interesting advice...don't know how that would work though.
I could always use Porphyry house system, in which case the Asc, would be hyleg. Bonatti says:
If the Sun and the Moon cannot be Hyleg and the chart is Conjunctional, then take the
degree of the Ascendant. And if any of the above rulers of the Ascendant aspect the
Ascendant, it will be the Hyleg.

Mar's is ruler of triplicity and has face and is the only planet with essential dignity in the degree of the Asc that aspects it. In that case Mars is alcocoden. However this case means that the native should by now be DEAD. When all is calculated, the native should have lived at most 40 and a half years, even less considering years are taken away due to aspect from Saturn. But the native is not dead, not even sick, so something is wrong here.
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  #186  
Unread 12-03-2013, 03:59 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
Interesting advice...don't know how that would work though.
I could always use Porphyry house system, in which case the Asc, would be hyleg. Bonatti says:
If the Sun and the Moon cannot be Hyleg and the chart is Conjunctional, then take the
degree of the Ascendant. And if any of the above rulers of the Ascendant aspect the
Ascendant, it will be the Hyleg.

Mar's is ruler of triplicity and has face and is the only planet with essential dignity in the degree of the Asc that aspects it. In that case Mars is alcocoden. However this case means that the native should by now be DEAD. When all is calculated, the native should have lived at most 40 and a half years, even less considering years are taken away due to aspect from Saturn. But the native is not dead, not even sick, so something is wrong here.
My software shows Moon as Hyleg.
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  #187  
Unread 12-03-2013, 04:07 PM
fastlane69 fastlane69 is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

And if so, then Mercury would be Alcocoden in my opinion since it is in opposition to Moon, and dignified in the Moon's place as trip and term ruler.
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  #188  
Unread 12-03-2013, 05:09 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Moon would be hyleg if it wasn't peregrine and if you use Placidus. If you use Porphyry (which many known astrologers swear by) then the Moon can in no way be hyleg, because it is peregrine AND on the cusp of the 8th house, so not even in a hylegical position.

After analyzing everything, I am becoming more and more convinced we should take the last syzygy. Bonatti says:

"If all of the above fail, then look to see if any of the four rulers of the Conjunction aspect the degree of the Conjunction. For Conjunctional charts only."

Abu Ali also says the same and specifies: "if the degree of the prenatal lunation is in an angle, or succedent (house) from the angle and if one of the five dignitaries makes aspect to it, then choose it as hyleg."

This native has the last syzygy a new moon at 12.03 Aries. Now it should be considered which planet has the most essential dignity at the degree of the prenatal New Moon.

Here we have three options: Jupiter, Venus and Sun. Jupiter makes no aspect, so we disregard him. Sun and Venus make an aspect; Venus has more dignity, but the Sun is closer in degrees, so I would choose it.

If I understand correctly, this would then make the Sun alcocoden and it would at least explain why the native is not yet dead.

But if I were to take Konrad's advice and ignore all this, then I would choose the Sun as both hyleg and alcocoden (according to Abu Ali), in which case the native should be dead in 2 years, because that is when the sun meets a malefic (squares Saturn and Asc. plus makes conjunction with the north node).

Who ever has a different opinion and/or wishes to correct my possibly wrong train of thought - please do!
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  #189  
Unread 12-04-2013, 01:24 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
But if I were to take Konrad's advice and ignore all this, then I would choose the Sun as both hyleg and alcocoden (according to Abu Ali), in which case the native should be dead in 2 years, because that is when the sun meets a malefic (squares Saturn and Asc. plus makes conjunction with the north node).
Is this via Primary directions??? And even if so, just because you think Sun is alcocoden and it is directed to the square of Saturn, as well as the ASC doesn't mean this is a critical time. Which, btw, is all any calculation of the hyleg can do...point to a critical time. It is a clear misunderstanding that the hyleg/alcocoden method is a method for predicting death.

dr. farr, I never learned how to calculate the aneretta. Do you have advice here?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
Who ever has a different opinion and/or wishes to correct my possibly wrong train of thought - please do!
I won't pretend to have done all the calculations (and they are legion. Chasing the hyleg is the traditional equivalent of the holy grail, and each astrologer had his own way of doing so) but...

In the early Hellenistic era, probably around the same time that both zodiacs aligned and western was close to Vedic, there were only three options for predominator (the one who directs.) Sun, Moon, and ASC. As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.

May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?

I already pointed someone to this thread earlier, but if you go to post #46, there is a way to look at whether or not the native will survive past two years.

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=66443

I have asked repeatedly for this thread to be split, but, well. Not so much.
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  #190  
Unread 12-04-2013, 02:19 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

I think I've done this correctly. The Hyleg of my chart is the Ascendant and the Alcocoden is Saturn conjunct, strongly placed in Capricorn with 2 strong benefic aspects and in an angular house, however that house is Aries, Saturn is retrograde and receives a partile opposition from the Moon so my lifeforce should only have about 40-50 years.
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  #191  
Unread 12-04-2013, 03:48 PM
SammyJo SammyJo is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

//As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.//

There is no possible way that Jupiter is alcocoden if Asc is hyleg as Jupiter does NOT aspect the Asc and that is one of the main rules.

//The Alcoccoden is the planet that forms a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the
greatest dignity in the Hyleg’s place. Thus one looks to the planets that are forming aspects to the Hyleg. If more than one planet aspects the Hyleg and has dignity there, then it is the planet that scores the most points. If no planet aspects the hyleg then it is not the hyleg //

So it's not possible for Jupiter to be alcocoden if the Asc. is hyleg as it does not aspect it! At least all authors are in agreement on this point. Namely, if the potential hyleg is not aspected by one of the dignitaties in its degree, then it is not the hyleg. Only exceptions are the Sun in Aries or Leo - when in lack of aspecting planet the Sun becomes both hyleg and alcocoden; just the same when Moon is in Cancer or Taurus - if other considerations are in check (for example that it is not in a cadent house and such).

If, in this chart, the Asc. is taken as hyleg (not first choice this being a conjunctional chart), the remaining options are Venus and Mars as alcocoden. Venus makes no aspect, so we are left with Mars. However, the problem here is that when calculation is done - the native should have been long dead with such alcocoden! Mars is retro, occidental, peregrine and in opposition to a malefic (Saturn), no helping aspects to benefics. So when I say the native should have been long dead I really mean LONG dead by all parameters.

Obviously the Asc. cannot be hyleg.

//May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?//

Why not? What is the problem? Is not the point to learn? The chart is most intriguing, complex and mysterious. Oh but it is not a celebrity! A famous person! So what? Common people are often much more interesting than any celebrity. Besides, we mostly meet common people, friends, relatives, neighbors...their lives will touch ours, not those of some celebrity. And if nothing else, the main reason should be that no one here so far (including myself) has been able to decipher it and provide decisive, practical demonstration of the process/methodology used in arriving to a firm and convincing conclusion. It is easy to do charts where all is obvious. But true learning is from the hard and ambiguous ones.
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  #192  
Unread 12-04-2013, 04:08 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
//As you have already clearly shown why neither light can be predominator, you are left with ASC, and that leaves Jupiter as alcocoden.//

There is no possible way that Jupiter is alcocoden if Asc is hyleg as Jupiter does NOT aspect the Asc and that is one of the main rules.
Actually, Jupiter regards the ASC by sextile.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
//The Alcoccoden is the planet that forms a Ptolemaic aspect to the Hyleg and has the
Correct, and Ptolemaic aspects are made by sign, not just orb. True, Jupiter is separating from the sextile with the ASC, but can "see" it none the less.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
So it's not possible for Jupiter to be alcocoden if the Asc. is hyleg as it does not aspect it! At least all authors are in agreement on this point.
See my point above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
If, in this chart, the Asc. is taken as hyleg (not first choice this being a conjunctional chart), the remaining options are Venus and Mars as alcocoden. Venus makes no aspect, so we are left with Mars. However, the problem here is that when calculation is done - the native should have been long dead with such alcocoden! Mars is retro, occidental, peregrine and in opposition to a malefic (Saturn), no helping aspects to benefics. So when I say the native should have been long dead I really mean LONG dead by all parameters.

Obviously the Asc. cannot be hyleg.
Either that, or Mars cannot be alcocoden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
//May I ask...why are we calculating this for this chart?? Is there a specific reason?//

Why not? What is the problem? Is not the point to learn? The chart is most intriguing, complex and mysterious. Oh but it is not a celebrity! A famous person! So what? Common people are often much more interesting than any celebrity. Besides, we mostly meet common people, friends, relatives, neighbors...their lives will touch ours, not those of some celebrity. And if nothing else, the main reason should be that no one here so far (including myself) has been able to decipher it and provide decisive, practical demonstration of the process/methodology used in arriving to a firm and convincing conclusion. It is easy to do charts where all is obvious. But true learning is from the hard and ambiguous ones.
I apologize if my question led you to become defensive. It is apparent you feel very strongly about this. I'm unclear how a simple question could lead to the conclusion that I thought only celebrity charts were worthy of study, but that is an erroneous leap. My question was based on the number of times that people have gotten carried away with this method and either wanted to use it for predicting thier own deaths, or became scared that they would die at a spefic time.
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  #193  
Unread 12-04-2013, 05:22 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Yes, they can "see" each other but that seems too much of a stretch when there are much stronger and intensive things going on. I am very dubious of this "seeing" and don't think it should be applied in an otherwise strictly defined system. Maybe for some other interpretations "seeing" can be used, but in prediction and finding the particulars such as hyleg and alcocoden...well, I would go with the more precise aspects. Of course, that might just be me.

//I apologize if my question led you to become defensive. It is apparent you feel very strongly about this. I'm unclear how a simple question could lead to the conclusion that I thought only celebrity charts were worthy of study, but that is an erroneous leap. My question was based on the number of times that people have gotten carried away with this method and either wanted to use it for predicting thier own deaths, or became scared that they would die at a spefic time.//

Um...no need to apologize, I am sorry if I gave off some wrong impression. I am certainly not accusing you of anything, least of all that you might think this or that. I don't know you, I have no idea what you think. Just used the celebrities as example as people usually most favor the charts of the known.

No, this is not about predicting someone's death. (I never look at my own chart, hahaha). It's about a chart that baffles me and I feel challenged. It's not the only one, but I don't think it appropriate to post 5 at the same time, is all. Would like to get some security on it discussing with others, as I feel that is the best way I learn.
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  #194  
Unread 12-04-2013, 05:43 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by SammyJo View Post
Yes, they can "see" each other but that seems too much of a stretch when there are much stronger and intensive things going on. I am very dubious of this "seeing" and don't think it should be applied in an otherwise strictly defined system. Maybe for some other interpretations "seeing" can be used, but in prediction and finding the particulars such as hyleg and alcocoden...well, I would go with the more precise aspects. Of course, that might just be me.
Well, ok. I know it may appear "inelegant" but regard/witnessing/aspect by sign is the foundation of astrology. It is the very reason there are certain places the hyleg cannot be, as in it must be in a sign (note, not house, we count the signs from the ASC for this) that can regard the ASC. Moon can't be hyleg in this chart, not because it is peregrine, but because it is in the 8th sign.
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  #195  
Unread 12-04-2013, 08:59 PM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Well yes, I mentioned the Moon being on the cusp of 8th a few posts up.

Do you think we should disqualify the Sun just because it RULES the 6th house? I can't find any definitive answer on that in literature, but it is the reason I was reluctant to accept it in the first place. Maybe that is my mistake?
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  #196  
Unread 12-29-2014, 01:09 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Thank you all for this interesting discussion. Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?
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Unread 12-29-2014, 01:24 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

ya know

Amy Winehouse's chart is known birthtime I dont know if 18 gemini is rectified or taken from birth certificate but I came up with 17 gemini.. you guys can calculate her alcocoden and see if it matches her age when she died.

just throwing an idea
T
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Unread 12-29-2014, 02:23 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena
Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?
What evidence is that? This may not be the thread for it, but I think there may be a mistake here since in the early Hellenistic period (my time may be off), the sidereal and tropical zodiacs were basically the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tikana
Amy Winehouse's chart is known birthtime I dont know if 18 gemini is rectified or taken from birth certificate but I came up with 17 gemini.. you guys can calculate her alcocoden and see if it matches her age when she died.

just throwing an idea
An interesting one, and Winehouse's is easy. Her hyleg is the Moon and the alcochodon is Saturn. Saturn is peregrine and in the Sixth house, so would likely be attributed it's lesser years of 30. Saturn is unassisted by benefic planets and unafflicted by malefic planets, so there wouldn't be any addition or subtraction of years.

It's kind of rare for people to die before their alcochdon runs out. Unless they are involved in some accident, but cocaine is a hell of a drug.
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Unread 12-29-2014, 11:29 AM
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arena View Post
Thank you all for this interesting discussion.
Did any of you think of checking out those AA rated chart and find the hyleg and alcoden in the sidereal zodiac
since there is substantial evidence that the ancient and traditional astrologers used the sidereal zodiac?
Astrologers are getting good results with Tropical AND Sidereal

HOWEVER

There IS an interesting comment by Gregory Rozek on the VETTIUS VALENS Sidereal/Tropical issue

QUOTE

'...The positions of both Mercury and Saturn fall in different signs than in the natale described by Valens.
If one would want to see the same sign placements of planets,
one should display the chart in sidereal zodiac (common Lahiri works
).
It doesn’t necessarily mean that Valens used the sidereal zodiac!
By the typical contemporary astrologers this could be explained by the fact,
that the positions of planets assessed by ancient authors were very often a few degrees off, comparing to modern calculations.
Especially for Mercury, which orbit was the hardest to observe due to proximity of the Sun.
For Mercury and Saturn the 2 degrees here changes a lot – because they change signs there.
Though it’s still intriguing that everything falls to “right place” in sidereal… '


'....But if you’d inspect the Anthology of Valens clearly,
you’ll see that he regards the zero degree Aries as placed 8 degrees before the Vernal Point.
This was a very popular view in the early Hellenistic astrology,
and it comes directly from the Babylonian sources
.
Both Greek and Babylonian material we now have access to utilized only few versions of placing of the vernal Point.
The two most popular were 8° Aries and 10° Aries.
So we have authors using this or that starting point of the Zodiac, but it is always a whole number of degrees.
But based on that we can’t call it a Sidereal astrology and not a Tropical one.....'


'....How the system was seen at these time lies somewhere inbetween the Tropical and Sidereal or stellar zodiac tied to the stars.
But because these two zodiacs coincided tightly at that time it is impossible put one or the other in the Ancient Greek’s mouths.
Becuase that would be like forcing them to separate the two conjoined things and deciding which one they regard as a superior one and diminish the other.
This is later and contemporary astrologers’ problem, not the Ancients’....'
http://gregoryrozek.com/en/valens-an...grade-planets/
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Unread 12-29-2014, 02:50 PM
Arena Arena is offline
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Re: Hyleg and Alcocoden

Yes I do know that astrologers are getting good results with both tropical and sidereal. It is just that I find the sidereal seems to speak louder to me, more clearly. And the whole sign houses are a dime. So I guess I am more into the old traditional methods now, discovering a lot by that.

I do use the outer modern planets to guide me as well though, although not as rulers of signs, more like co-influencing effect on charts.

But since I see that Omni is using traditional methods, and since I consider him a real gem to this forum - I am a bit surprised that he does not consider whole sign houses (although alcab was also used) and he is not considering comparing the charts with sidereal as well (since there are lots of substantial evidence that it was the zodiac used in those olden days) ... just to see if the number of years would be more accurately measured that way.

I would like to see it done in this thread - not with any intention of having another sidereal vs. tropical debate or heated discussion ... but rather to just look into it to see if it will give us some insights. I might take on the project myself with help from you traditionalists if I will have time in coming weeks.
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