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Houses & cusps For discussions on houses and house cusps (i.e. planets on angles, house stelliums and so on)


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  #51  
Unread 12-27-2011, 03:56 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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LOL like she needs to know where any planets are at She can tell by the color they give off





lol lol lol lol


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  #52  
Unread 12-27-2011, 05:21 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Moog View Post
I was doing some research into Gauquelin's work when I stumbled upon this very interesting blog post that is relevant to much of the conversation in this thread. Enjoy!

http://hermeticum.wordpress.com/2010...unk-astrology/

Interesting link, thanks Moog-while there are some parts of the article which I find rather problematic, I can quite go along with most of what that article has to say, particularly about the whole sign format.
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  #53  
Unread 12-27-2011, 08:52 AM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
There is a way to prove or disprove, just no one has figured it out yet.
So *why* making sweeping statements that you cannot back up??
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  #54  
Unread 12-27-2011, 03:28 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I make sweeping statements I cannot back up to counter others' sweeping statements that they cannot back up.

Imagine if multiple house systems were correct. Imagine if there were multiple legitimate interpretations of aspects. Imagine if we constantly had to change things to suit ourselves under the assumption that some system out there is right. Imagine if everything was so vague one could generally not tell truth from falsity. Oh wait, it's already like that.
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  #55  
Unread 12-27-2011, 03:36 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
I make sweeping statements I cannot back up to counter others' sweeping statements that they cannot back up.

Imagine if multiple house systems were correct. Imagine if there were multiple legitimate interpretations of aspects. Imagine if we constantly had to change things to suit ourselves [yes I see you do this quite often around here...really not a good habit to get into]under the assumption that some system out there is right. Imagine if everything was so vague one could generally not tell truth from falsity. Oh wait, it's already like that.

Well you still sound *very confused* perhaps come back after ten years of study and research and talk with conviction and knowledge....

Astrology cannot be learned overnight or reading a few cookbooks, it's like learning a new language....
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  #56  
Unread 12-27-2011, 03:38 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I already know how to do modern. Modern is learn-able in about a couple of weeks. People only bother with modern because they don't know that its system of prediction doesn't work.
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  #57  
Unread 12-27-2011, 03:52 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Thanks for that retinoid, and also here's some useful information from dr. farr regarding the correct use of whole sign houses. Not everyone is aware of the fact that whole sign houses incorporate an additional factor relating to the Ascendant degree that when taken on board and utilised when interpetating or delineating an astrological chart means that whole sign houses are being used as originally intended
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Originally Posted by dr. farr
Cusps: Today (and for the past thousand years or so) we define cusps as "borders" (coasts),

but that is not the original meaning of the word "cusp": it means "point" such as cuspal teeth (bicuspids) and the point of a sword

- so originally the term cusp meant the "point" of something, and in astrology originally the "cusp" of the house meant its "point";

now, when quadrant systems were developed, this "point" of the house came to mean its "beginning", which later came to mean its "border", ie, the "border" between one house and the other.

And later astrology also began using these "borders" (cusps) for various prognostic applications (Charles Carter came to believe that, for timing of events, the "cusps" of the Campanus house system gave the best results, among the various quadrant house systems)

But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree "borders" of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!

In whole sign, the "cusp" retained its original meaning, not as a "border" but rather as A POINT

-and that POINT (cusp) for EACH house, was the sensitive point of that house, viz, the sensitive point in whole sign houses - each house - that is the "cusp" of each house - is a direct projection from the ascending degree.

Example:
-the ascending degree of a chart is 18 Taurus: what are the house cusps (sensitive points, original meaning of the word "cusp") in the whole sign houses of this chart?
Cusp of 1st house = 18 Taurus
Cusp of 2nd house = 18 Gemini
Cusp of 3rd house = 18 Cancer
Cusp of 4th house = 18 Leo
Cusp of 5th house = 18 Virgo
Cusp of 6th house = 18 Libra
Cusp of 7th house = 18 Scorpio
Cusp of 8th house = 18 Sagittarius
Cusp of 9th house = 18 Capricorn
Cusp of 10th house = 18 Aquarius
Cusp of 11th house = 18 Pisces
Cusp of 12th house = 18 Aries

Now it is these "cusps" (sensitive degrees, original meaning of the word "cusp" as a "point") that are (and were) used for progressions, timing of events, etc, and the fact is that they work for these purposes, quite well (in expert hands)

Whole sign does not use the BORDERS between houses (always 0 degree of any sign) for anything,

but it DOES use "cusps" (points in the house, projected from the exact ascending degree) for timing (and other) delineative purposes.

Whole sign suddenly vanished (both in the West and in Vedic astrology) during the same period of time - ie, late 8th to early 9th century - this sudden disappearance suggests a sudden turn in astrological thinking and practices, rather than a gradual supplanting of a less effective traditional method (whole sign) by a new and more effective method (rheotrius/alchabitius in the West, and the closely related to whole sign Equal house, in Vedic astrology)

For me, there is only 1 reason I switched to whole sign - it worked better (FOR ME)

I could care less if it were the oldest house system (which it is) or whether it was invented by Badda Bing at Barney's Beanery in Bayonne, 10 years ago:
only things I consider are:
-does it seem to make sense?
-does it "taste good" to me (ie, does it "feel right" to me)
-and, if yes to the above, does it work (producing delineations and predicitions) better than what I have previously been doing?

Well, whole sign did all that, for me, so I switched; but I am not going to try to convince anyone of anything about it, except for beginners - to you who might just be starting out, I would say: try whole sign first, and see how well it might work for you...
So then dr farr is advocating the equal house system since that is exactly what the equal house system is...In the equal my mars is in the 5th house (not the sixth house) and my uranus is conjunct moon and venus in the 7th house and not the 8th house.
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  #58  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:08 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

Equal and whole sign are not the same.

With equal, each house begins 30 degrees exactly after the previous house. The process begins with the ascending degree. So 15 degrees Gemini ascendant, 15 degrees Cancer is house 2 etc. There would be 12 equal segments of 30 degrees from the ascending degree.

Whole sign, 15 degrees Gemini is the ascendant point. But the whole of Gemini is the first 'house' The whole of Cancer is the 2nd 'house'. Seperately, the ascending degree is considered the most 'sensitive point' in each house. A planet on that degree in any house is very influential in that house. There would be 12 houses of 30 degrees, and each house is an entire sign. The sign on the ascendant is the first sign/house, and the ascending degree is just a point within the 1st house.


This is where the argument that Ptolemy either misinterpreted or improved upon whole sign comes from, I believe.
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  #59  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:11 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I think some images would help illustrate that idea, and better show the differences between whole/equal. I might make some.
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  #60  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:12 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by Rebel Uranian View Post
I already know how to do modern. Modern is learn-able in about a couple of weeks. People only bother with modern because they don't know that its system of prediction doesn't work.

No one can learn all there is to learn about astrology in two weeks, this is *sheer arrogance and immaturity again...*
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  #61  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:14 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Originally Posted by retinoid View Post
So then dr farr is advocating the equal house system since that is exactly what the equal house system is...In the equal my mars is in the 5th house (not the sixth house) and my uranus is conjunct moon and venus in the 7th house and not the 8th house.
Not exactly retinoid, dr. farr is not advocating the equal house system at all! Read the post carefully.

dr. farr says (quote)
"But now notice this: in whole sign the cusps are NOT the 0 degree 'borders' of sign/houses at all, and never were so regarded!"


(a) The BORDERS OF WHOLE SIGN HOUSES ARE ALL AT 0
(b) AND IN ADDITION,
whole sign houses have sensitive points that seem very similar to Equal house BUT those sensitive points are CONTAINED WITHIN each whole sign house.

dr. farr says (quote)
"In whole sign, the 'cusp' retained its original meaning, not as a 'border' but rather as A POINT"

so, using whole sign as originally used, then THE ASCENDANT DEGREE IS THE SENSITIVE DEGREE/CUSP THAT IS CONTAINED WITHIN each whole sign house BUT the border of each house is 0 of each house - that is why it is the whole sign house system because each complete sign IS a whole house

whole sign house system as originally used included a kind of "equal house"
idea BUT CONTAINED WITHIN whole/complete/entire signs

ie in whole signs
(a) each house is a sign
(b) each house has a sensitive point/cusp within it that is the same degree as the ascendant

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moog View Post
I think some images would help illustrate that idea, and better show the differences between whole/equal. I might make some.
Great idea Moog
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 12-27-2011 at 04:17 PM.
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  #62  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:15 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I don't think it's really a good or useful thing to disparage modern astrology (and/or it's practitioners) or even treat it as a singular thing.
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  #63  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:15 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

Yes, but I'm not learning all there is to learn about astrology in two weeks unless modern is all there is to learn about astrology. Since modern is not all there is to learn about astrology, it is not impossible to learn modern astrology in two weeks. Since it is not impossible to learn modern astrology in two weeks, it is possible to learn modern astrology in two weeks. That is, unless you give a better premise.

There is no single unified modern astrology so I shouldn't be saying that. But it's still logically true based on your premise.
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  #64  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:22 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Yes, but I'm not learning all there is to learn about astrology in two weeks unless modern is all there is to learn about astrology. Since modern is not all there is to learn about astrology, it is not impossible to learn modern astrology in two weeks. Since it is not impossible to learn modern astrology in two weeks, it is possible to learn modern astrology in two weeks. That is, unless you give a better premise.

There is no single unified modern astrology so I shouldn't be saying that. But it's still logically true based on your premise.
see now, you're trying to be clever with words and trying to twist things, grow up!
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  #65  
Unread 12-27-2011, 04:29 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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I don't think it's really a good or useful thing to disparage modern astrology (and/or it's practitioners) or even treat it as a singular thing.
Quite Moog
wilsontc did say:
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Originally Posted by wilsontc View Post
a50,......... That is partly because there is such an overlap between "modern" and "traditional" methods and many "modern astrologers" use some "traditional" techniques as well as modern in their interpretations (e.g., Mars ruling both Aries and Scorpio).
About the new forum,
Tim
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  #66  
Unread 12-27-2011, 05:41 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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I don't think it's really a good or useful thing to disparage modern astrology (and/or it's practitioners) or even treat it as a singular thing.
I agree, Moog, just like I don't think it's a really good or useful thing to disparage traditional astrology, or even house systems...which, as always seems to be the touchiest subject here. Several posters on this thread have mentioned their affinity for a particular house system based on how they fit their own, personal charts. Wouldn't it make more of an informative discussion to give specific reasons as to why astrologers here prefer one system over the other (as dr. farr has done many times.) Just as an example, I see a lot of similarities between Equal House and Whole sign, with the major difference being that I (in all my newly studying perspective) believe Equal house to give more importance to the houses (numbers 1 through 12) than to the signs themselves. I also see little difference between the many types of quadrant based systems.

What seems most important for anyone trying to find the best "fit" for themselves is to look at charts, and charts, and charts, and decide how they are best able to "see" the symbolic language that astrology is. The astrologer is the interpreter, as well as the artist.

I also don't think it's conducive to learning to suggest that members should study for 10 years before they are able to post their thoughts and opinions, or to suggest on the open forum that they lack maturity and need to "grow up." Though, I will say that, irrespective of age, maybe that isn't such bad advice for more than one member...
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  #67  
Unread 12-27-2011, 05:48 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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see now, you're trying to be clever with words and trying to twist things, grow up!
No, I'm being logical and you're not being logical and therefore being illogical. If I can't do anything better, I'll be a lawyer.


@tsmall

I think I'll make a thread for detailed discussion of house systems and what they mean. I still think anything besides whole signs is a hassle.

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-27-2011 at 05:50 PM.
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  #68  
Unread 12-27-2011, 06:02 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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I agree, Moog, just like I don't think it's a really good or useful thing to disparage traditional astrology, or even house systems...which, as always seems to be the touchiest subject here. Several posters on this thread have mentioned their affinity for a particular house system based on how they fit their own, personal charts. Wouldn't it make more of an informative discussion to give specific reasons as to why astrologers here prefer one system over the other (as dr. farr has done many times.) Just as an example, I see a lot of similarities between Equal House and Whole sign, with the major difference being that I (in all my newly studying perspective) believe Equal house to give more importance to the houses (numbers 1 through 12) than to the signs themselves. I also see little difference between the many types of quadrant based systems.

What seems most important for anyone trying to find the best "fit" for themselves is to look at charts, and charts, and charts, and decide how they are best able to "see" the symbolic language that astrology is. The astrologer is the interpreter, as well as the artist.

I also don't think it's conducive to learning to suggest that members should study for 10 years before they are able to post their thoughts and opinions, or to suggest on the open forum that they lack maturity and need to "grow up." Though, I will say that, irrespective of age, maybe that isn't such bad advice for more than one member...
This is interesting tsmall, whole sign preceded Equal House. The names of these two systems are a pointer. Equal House focuses on the Houses. Whole sign focuses on the Sign.

And yet of the two, whole sign includes Equal House - two for the price of one?
The sensitive points/cusps of whole sign acting as an "Equal House" CONTAINED WITHIN whole sign.

Equal House is missing the whole signs from which it was separated - perhaps as byjove has hinted - by Ptolemy

Equally interesting is the idea that if a house system "works only for your own chart" then in what sense is that house system "working"?
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No, I'm being logical and you're not being logical and therefore being illogical. If I can't do anything better, I'll be a lawyer. @tsmall I think I'll make a thread for detailed discussion of house systems and what they mean. I still think anything besides whole signs is a hassle.
Now there's an idea! Law is ultimately the logical pedantic interpretation of fine points of argument that you may well find quite fun Rebel Uranian.
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Unread 12-27-2011, 06:30 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

[QUOTE=tsmall;346640]I agree, Moog, just like I don't think it's a really good or useful thing to disparage traditional astrology, or even house systems...which, as always seems to be the touchiest subject here. Several posters on this thread have mentioned their affinity for a particular house system based on how they fit their own, personal charts. Wouldn't it make more of an informative discussion to give specific reasons as to why [there are plenty of here if you use our search feature]astrologers here prefer one system over the other (as dr. farr has done many times.) Just as an example, I see a lot of similarities between Equal House and Whole sign, with the major difference being that I (in all my newly studying perspective) believe Equal house to give more importance to the houses (numbers 1 through 12) than to the signs themselves. I also see little difference between the many types of quadrant based systems.
[you will never get any kind of agreement concerning house systems, so why bother. I have on this or another thread today, advised members of a new sub forum for Trads......]

What seems most important for anyone trying to find the best "fit" for themselves is to look at charts, and charts, and charts, and decide how they are best able to "see" the symbolic language that astrology is. The astrologer is the interpreter, as well as the artist.[Exactly!]

I also don't think it's conducive to learning to suggest that members should study for 10 years before they are able to post their thoughts and opinions, or to suggest on the open forum that they lack maturity and need to "grow up." [really my comments were directed to a 14year old minor on here, not to members in general......]Though, I will say that, irrespective of age, maybe that isn't such bad advice for more than one member...[/QUOTE]

thank you, I think it must be confusing to newbies, to read so many different accounts without explanations of whether they are Modern or Traditional and/or which house system they use. Thankfully, most here do have the common sense to mention it though. Besides with this new sub forum any threads wanting Trad response will sim[ly get relocated to that forum.....
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Unread 12-27-2011, 06:32 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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No, I'm being logical and you're not being logical and therefore being illogical. If I can't do anything better, I'll be a lawyer.[please do, I mean it please doooooo]


@tsmall

I think I'll make a thread for detailed discussion of house systems and what they mean. I still think anything besides whole signs is a hassle.

Why not frequent the Trad sub forum with your 'logic' and sparkling whit....
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  #71  
Unread 12-27-2011, 06:35 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Why not frequent the Trad sub forum with your 'logic' and sparkling whit....
Are Logic and sparkling wit not welcome everywhere on this forum?
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Unread 12-27-2011, 06:44 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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Are Logic and sparkling wit not welcome everywhere on this forum?
depends who it's coming from, certainly a sense of humour is paramount when dealing with underage minors on here .....
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  #73  
Unread 12-27-2011, 06:48 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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depends who it's coming from, certainly a sense of humour is paramount when dealing with underage minors on here .....
I'm not old enough to be a minor yet? Aww man...

P.S. My Ascendant is Capricorn which makes me old I also have Pluto in a pretty much exact hard aspect to my Sun/Moon midpoint. I think you missed that one. This is probably a result of my Pluto: I don't really care what you say to me. If I feel bad then that's my fault.

Last edited by Rebel Uranian; 12-27-2011 at 06:52 PM.
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Unread 12-27-2011, 07:03 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

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I'm not old enough to be a minor yet? Aww man...
Never mind Rebel Uranian, your Capricorn Ascendent automatically enrols you as a member of the Young Fogey's Club

In any event Time shall pass, so make the most of being old while you are young


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P.S. My Ascendant is Capricorn which makes me old I also have Pluto in a pretty much exact hard aspect to my Sun/Moon midpoint. I think you missed that one. This is probably a result of my Pluto: I don't really care what you say to me. If I feel bad then that's my fault.
If you feel bad, that is your choice - not your fault
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Unread 12-27-2011, 09:53 PM
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Re: Which house system is right for you? Any precise way to "know"?

I don't understand what dr farr means by the sweet spot (ascendant degree). Equal houses start on the ascendant degree (in each sign). Does dr. farr accept that even if a planet is in a house but not past an ascendant degree (for example 5 degrees scorpio mars when the ascendant is in 18 degrees)? In a whole chart mars would be in the 'scorpio' cusp house, but in an equal house it wouldn't and may be in the house before it.
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