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  #1  
Unread 09-19-2011, 11:47 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Hyleg and alcoccoden

Hello from me ,can someone help me or find the hyleg and alcoccoden for me in these natal charts,i am confused.Natal 1:08-14-1981 at 9:00 in the morning Lamia Greece and Natal 2:08-11-1982 at 13:30 noon in Lamia Greece too.I am trying 3 days to find them so to know the life span of me and my husband approximately.Thanks in advance for your answers.

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Unread 09-19-2011, 11:59 PM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Hello from me ,can someone help me or find the hyleg and alcoccoden for me in these natal charts,i am confused.Natal 1:08-14-1981 at 9:00 in the morning Lamia Greece and Natal 2:08-11-1982 at 13:30 noon in Lamia Greece too.I am trying 3 days to find them so to know the life span of me and my husband approximately.Thanks in advance for your answers.
paraskeyh, this link shows you how to post your natal charts to this forum http://www.astrologyweekly.com/forum...ad.php?t=12126 for that you need to go to astro.com, from there, if you choose Extended Chart Selection Page you can select from fourteen different house systems (the default is Placidus) but if you would like to choose another from those on offer, then you can.

here is a link to a pdf by Bernadette Brady on the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf (including a summary of the technique)
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Unread 09-20-2011, 02:09 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Thank you very much i will attach it
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Unread 09-20-2011, 03:53 PM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Why don't you just focus on life instead of death? seems a rather morbid interest and I don't believe there is a death signature that is 100% reliable. You could say your chart in 'ancient days' you could have died 2x, but with modern day medical science and interventions people are living longer and longer.

Having said all the aforementioned...

Hyleg
Definition of HylegThe Giver of Life. Said of a planet so located as to have influence upon the longevity of the native. It is one of the most complex and controversial subjects in the field of astrology, but which has fallen more or less in disfavour as the result of the concept that any attempt to predict the time of death is now generally considered unethical. When it had progressed to an aspect to the place of the Anareta, the taker-away of life, the native was presumed to have run his span and death ensued.
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/hyleg.php


http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/hyleg.html
http://www.astrology-x-files.com/x-files/hyleg.html
http://astrotribe.tribe.net/thread/ca4a7493-dab1-4d06-98b0-7e94873d7a01
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Unread 09-20-2011, 06:43 PM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
Why don't you just focus on life instead of death? seems a rather morbid interest
Everyone is entitled to have their own interests and opinions - clearly not everyone thinks death morbid. Medieval astrologers delineated death.

Western Predictive Astrology is some 2000 years old. Modern Psychological astrology has only developed over the last 100 years. Modern astrology normally passes for mainstream astrology in the West today and in its most watered down version is called Sun-Sign astrology. The fundamental difference is that Modern astrology cannot be used for accurate prediction and is basically character analysis.

Medieval or Western Predictive Astrology is a predictive Art that concerns itself not just with the temporal, worldly affairs of men and women, their societies and nations but deals with the deep spiritual and philosophical questions that lie at the root of Western civilisation and thought. It is the astrology that all the great masters of astrology, without exception, have studied. Source: Robert Zoller http://www.new-library.com/index.php
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Unread 09-21-2011, 09:30 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

I agree with you JUPITERASC, i attached the two charts.The first is mine and the second is the chart of my husband.
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  #7  
Unread 09-21-2011, 10:44 PM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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I agree with you JUPITERASC, i attached the two charts.The first is mine and the second is the chart of my husband.
The link to the pdf I posted initially at http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf has all instructions required to determine the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden.

If you need some assistance then scroll down to Page 11 which has an example chart (Charlie Chaplin) illustrating the method - so if you would like to, then read the information regarding how Charlie Chaplin's Hyleg and Alcoccoden have been determined and then apply the information to your charts.

If you need information regarding the Triplicities here's a link that would be useful for you http://www.skyscript.co.uk/triplicities.html
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Unread 09-21-2011, 10:59 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Ok thank you ,i 've read Bernadette and i will come up with some thoughts tomorrow cause i find this method a little bit difficult for me.Its the the first time wich i deal with this.I will present my thoughts and you will tell me where you think i m right or wrong
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Unread 09-22-2011, 01:30 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by paraskeyh View Post
Ok thank you ,i 've read Bernadette and i will come up with some thoughts tomorrow cause i find this method a little bit difficult for me.Its the the first time wich i deal with this.I will present my thoughts and you will tell me where you think i m right or wrong
Paraskeyh for the sake of clarity, it is important to notice that Bernadette Brady has used Alcabitius houses for all the charts she uses in order to illustrate her instructions for determining the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden of Charlie Chaplain's chart.

Whereas the charts you have posted are using Placidus houses.

On astro.com you can choose from fourteen different House Systems including Alcabitius Houses by clicking on Extended Chart Selection which brings you to a page on which you can then find the words 'House System' - click on 'default' and a drop down menu appears. From there, if you choose Alcabitius Houses for your charts, then when you delineate using Bernadette Brady's method there shall be no confusion caused by differing house systems.
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Unread 09-22-2011, 04:09 AM
dr. farr dr. farr is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

The Alchabitius house system was actually developed in the 7th century by the neo-Classical astrologer, Rhetorius. It later swept through the Islamic astrological world and was the dominant-indeed pretty much the only-house system in use from the 9th century through the 14th century (the Porphyry system was a minority system, mostly in Europe, during those centuries) and it is still in general use in the Middle East today. The renowned 13th century astrologer, Guido Bonatti, exclusively used the Alchabitius house system format for all of his astrological applications (astro-medical, mundane, horary, elections, natal delineations)

I myself have no experience with this house format system, having adopted the whole sign house format over the past decade, after a long time previous use of Placidus...

Last edited by dr. farr; 09-22-2011 at 04:11 AM.
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Unread 09-25-2011, 11:46 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Paraskeyh for the sake of clarity, it is important to notice that Bernadette Brady has used Alcabitius houses for all the charts she uses in order to illustrate her instructions for determining the Hyleg and the Alcoccoden of Charlie Chaplain's chart.

Whereas the charts you have posted are using Placidus houses.

On astro.com you can choose from fourteen different House Systems including Alcabitius Houses by clicking on Extended Chart Selection which brings you to a page on which you can then find the words 'House System' - click on 'default' and a drop down menu appears. From there, if you choose Alcabitius Houses for your charts, then when you delineate using Bernadette Brady's method there shall be no confusion caused by differing house systems.
Οh my God what a mistake! Thanks for pointed it to me i will check it.
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Unread 09-25-2011, 11:49 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
The Alchabitius house system was actually developed in the 7th century by the neo-Classical astrologer, Rhetorius. It later swept through the Islamic astrological world and was the dominant-indeed pretty much the only-house system in use from the 9th century through the 14th century (the Porphyry system was a minority system, mostly in Europe, during those centuries) and it is still in general use in the Middle East today. The renowned 13th century astrologer, Guido Bonatti, exclusively used the Alchabitius house system format for all of his astrological applications (astro-medical, mundane, horary, elections, natal delineations)

I myself have no experience with this house format system, having adopted the whole sign house format over the past decade, after a long time previous use of Placidus...
It's good to know, i have never used any other system since today.
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Unread 09-26-2011, 12:35 AM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Ok now i have the charts but mars from astro com is in 1st house and with Kepler i calculate it in 12th house.Anyway
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Unread 09-26-2011, 01:05 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Ok now i have the charts but mars from astro com is in 1st house and with Kepler i calculate it in 12th house.Anyway
Pages 9 & 10 at this link already previously given http://www.bernadettebrady.com/Pdfs/Hyleg.pdf explain clearly how to find the Hyleg - there are several methods you can use to find the Hyleg and out of interest, you can experiment with all. It is good to practice and understand for yourself how the method is applied
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Unread 09-26-2011, 01:12 AM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

My chart(the first): According to Bonatti's Method(correct me if i'm wrong)Sun must be the Hyleg because its Diurnal chart and sun is in 10th in masculine singn.BUT noone from the planets wich have dignity(ruler,exalt,tripl and term i dont know if face or detri counts) make aspect with sun only saturn detri or detrium (i dont know what this word means).So the Sun cannot be the hyleg because it hasnt got Alcoccoden.Second ,the moon cannot again be the Hyleg cause is in feminine sign but in 6th house,i dont know if the conjuction with the 7th house counts, look at the chart for help.So the only thing wich must be the hyleg is the Part Of Fortune(my chart is Preventional) cause Jupiter has the greatest dignity and makes a square with it too.Venus also makes aspect with the Part of Fortune(conjuction)but has smaller dignity there,so Jupiter is the Alcoccoden.Jupiter in Scorpio in 12th house conjucts ascedant and Mars and makes an opposition with moon in taurus,a square with venus in cancer in the 9th house and a very fortunate sextile with mercury in Virgo the 10th.So if i am correct i take the jupiters Lesser or Middle years?And what i am going to do with the other planets?I need your guidance..

Last edited by paraskeyh; 09-26-2011 at 01:18 AM.
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Unread 09-26-2011, 01:59 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by paraskeyh View Post
My chart(the first): According to Bonatti's Method(correct me if i'm wrong)Sun must be the Hyleg because its Diurnal chart and sun is in 10th in masculine singn.BUT noone from the planets wich have dignity(ruler,exalt,tripl and term i dont know if face or detri counts) make aspect with sun only saturn detri or detrium (i dont know what this word means).So the Sun cannot be the hyleg because it hasnt got Alcoccoden.Second ,the moon cannot again be the Hyleg cause is in feminine sign but in 6th house,i dont know if the conjuction with the 7th house counts, look at the chart for help.So the only thing wich must be the hyleg is the Part Of Fortune(my chart is Preventional) cause Jupiter has the greatest dignity and makes a square with it too.Venus also makes aspect with the Part of Fortune(conjuction)but has smaller dignity there,so Jupiter is the Alcoccoden.Jupiter in Scorpio in 12th house conjucts ascedant and Mars and makes an opposition with moon in taurus,a square with venus in cancer in the 9th house and a very fortunate sextile with mercury in Virgo the 10th.So if i am correct i take the jupiters Lesser or Middle years?And what i am going to do with the other planets?I need your guidance..
If a planet is situated in a sign which opposes its own it is said to be in detriment, a word which literally means to be harmed or damaged. Since a planet's own sign is regarded as its stronghold, it follows that the furthest sign from this should be viewed as its most vulnerable position.

1. Using Bernadette Brady's favored Alcabitius Houses, your sun is in the 9th at 18 Leo 25 39 (because cusp of 10th house begins at 19 Leo 30 02) Sun is therefore not in 10th but according at least to Ptolomy can be Hyleg since Sun is in 9th

2. Bonnati says (a) if the sun is in the 1st 11th or 10th and in a feminine sign then it is Hyleg
alternatively (b) if the sun is in 7th, 8th or 9th house and in a masculine sign then it is Hyleg
therefore according to Bonnati Sun in 9th in masculine is Hyleg and Ptolemy agrees
Ptolemy says Sun is Hyleg because Sun is in 9th House


Next we seek a planet in aspect to Leo Sun that has greatest dignity in degree occupied by Hyleg Sun

Saturn is in detriment in Cancer and Leo, so Saturn is indeed in detriment in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun... however nevertheless Saturn does have some dignity in the degree occupied by the Sun because Sun at that degree is in the Face of Saturn

Note that Saturn in this chart is at 17 Libra 47 42 in its own Terms as well as being in its Exaltation sign of Libra.

Sun is in close sextile with Saturn therefore Saturn (only just) qualifies as Alcoccoden

Lets check if any other planets are aspecting Sun
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Unread 09-26-2011, 02:06 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Exalted Taurus Moon aspects Sun by square but has no dignity at the degree occupied by the Sun therefore Saturn remains Alcoccoden for the time being, at least according to Ptolemy

Next step is to check out Mars and Jupiter both of whom are in square aspect to Leo Sun
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Unread 09-26-2011, 02:12 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Scorpio Jupiter has no dignity at the degree occupied by Leo Sun so is immediately out of the contest as is Scorpio Mars for the same reason (although Mars is strong being in own Domicile, Triplicity, Term and Face)

Saturn appears to have won the contest by being the sole contender who has any dignity at all in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun

Would you agree or disagree?
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Unread 09-26-2011, 04:45 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??
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Unread 09-26-2011, 05:28 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by dr. farr View Post
Mercury seems at least to be a contender re to the 8/11/82 natal chart:
-in its sign of both rulership and exaltation (and flowing toward its exact exaltation degree in Virgo)
-in an elevated degree of Virgo
-in its own term (whether Egyptian of Ptolemaic terms are considered)
-posited in the angular 10th Alchabitius house (would be in the 11th succedent in whole sign)
-Mercury is always in sect (according to Abu Mashar and others) so diurnal/nocturnal wouldn't really apply as a consideration re to Mercury re to the issue of sect
-Dorotheus of Sidon and other early Greco/Roman authors would also have considered a Virgo Mercury as being in its triplicity, since they gave Virgo 4 triplicity rulers (unlike any ofther sign, Mercury being considered a night triplicity lord of Virgo; however, since this is a diurnal chart, considering Mercury as being in its triplicity, might be doubtful)
-Mercury is in applying sextile to the ascending degree
-Moon/Mercury are within 22 minutes of a perfected (partile) trine, although the Moon is just barely seperating from the perfect aspect (Moon is seperating by a mere 22 minutes of arc)

...what do you think??
According to Ptolemy and Bonatti method (at least as outlined by Bernadette Brady) and as previously delineated

1. (a) Ptolemy says Leo Sun is Hyleg.
(b) Bonatti agrees Leo Sun is Hyleg

2. Any planetary candidate for Alcoccoden must (a) aspect Hyleg (b) have some dignity in the degree occupied by Hyleg - Saturn fulfils this rule

3. However Virgo Mercury is Disjunct/Inconjunct Sun therefore not in classical aspect to Leo Sun Hyleg and cannot be Alcoccoden

I agree Strong Virgo Mercury is in good aspect to Taurus Moon - however, according to Alcabitius Houses Moon is in 6th House therefore cannot be considered as Hyleg

We are using Alcabitius Houses simply because that is the house system of choice for Bernadette Brady who has illustrated her method (which is derived from Ptolemy, Bonatti et al by using Alcabitius...) Obviously different results would have been obtained by using an alternative House system, such as Whole Sign for example
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Last edited by JUPITERASC; 09-26-2011 at 06:23 AM.
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Unread 09-26-2011, 08:20 AM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

Right, makes sense (within the context of the Alchabitius house system model being used)

Note that in whole sign, the Moon is in the angular 7th house.

Actually in practice I have little experience with Hylegs, etc: I myself have always been satisfied with taking the Pars Hyleg, for all purposes, whic, in my line, have mostly been for astro-therapeutic delineations...
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Unread 09-26-2011, 07:40 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

1. Using Bernadette Brady's favored Alcabitius Houses, your sun is in the 9th at 18 Leo 25 39 (because cusp of 10th house begins at 19 Leo 30 02) Sun is therefore not in 10th but according at least to Ptolomy can be Hyleg since Sun is in 9th

With Kepler my sun is in tenth,with astro.com calculations is in 9 house so what to do?

... however nevertheless Saturn does have some dignity in the degree occupied by the Sun because Sun at that degree is in the Face of Saturn

Where did you see it?

Sun is in close sextile with Saturn therefore Saturn (only just) qualifies as Alcoccoden

Lets check if any other planets are aspecting Sun [/QUOTE]
No other planet aspects the sun except Saturn,i dont see any aspects with moon ,mars and jupiter.Am i doing something wrong?
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Unread 09-26-2011, 07:52 PM
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
Scorpio Jupiter has no dignity at the degree occupied by Leo Sun so is immediately out of the contest as is Scorpio Mars for the same reason (although Mars is strong being in own Triplicity, Term and Face)

Saturn appears to have won the contest by being the sole contender who has any dignity at all in the degree occupied by the Leo Sun

Would you agree or disagree?
Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?

Last edited by paraskeyh; 09-26-2011 at 07:56 PM.
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Unread 09-27-2011, 12:53 AM
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JUPITERASC JUPITERASC is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Ok if sun then is the Hyleg and Saturn is Alcoccoden then i add the Middle or the Greater years of Saturn? I ask this because Saturn is in very good condition by sign but in bad house. Second thing i want to know is:Saturn isnt make any aspects only the sextile with the Hyleg sun ,so what to do,should i add the Hyleg lesser years and the middle as months or i keep only saturn?
If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet.
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Unread 09-27-2011, 12:10 PM
paraskeyh paraskeyh is offline
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Re: Hyleg and alcoccoden

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Originally Posted by JUPITERASC View Post
If any other planet were in the 12th house then that would be an accidental debility but we are considering Saturn, the greater malefic who has accidental dignity in 12th House because 12th is the house of Saturns Joy.

So Libra Saturn is in Exaltation, in own Terms, in House of Joy 12th, sextile Leo Sun whose degree is in the Face of Saturn therefore Saturn is fit to be Alcoccoden (at least according to Bernadette Brady's advice which uses Alcabitius Houses)

Although Hyleg Sun is in Leo and Leo is a sign in which Saturn is in detriment, Saturn has minor dignity by Face in the degree occupied by Leo Sun and in my view there is sufficient reason to take the Greater Years of Saturn. However, I would be interested to learn dr. farr's viewpoint on this particular aspect.

Deborah Houlding of Skyscript tells us that the use of planetary joys is very ancient - it was a prominent consideration in classical astrology and has remained a pertinent factor throughout traditional texts. There is good reason to believe that some house meanings have developed as a result of the strong association between the planets and their houses of joy. Manilius referred to a planet in its house of joy as being in its temple, illustrating the very deep and profound relationship that exists between the house and its associated planet.
I agree (relief).So i dont count th Hylegs years at all?
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