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  #76  
Unread 02-26-2010, 06:12 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

i used to think all houses are equal until i found K.P method of astrology (this is based on vedic but not totally) which went to the minute detail of a horoscope by calculating exact position of cusps and planets and their sublords
this method follows unequal placidus and it proved me right in 100% charts i've seen

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  #77  
Unread 02-27-2010, 03:08 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by Modcleopatra View Post
I prefer Placidus. The wikipedia article is TERRIBLY unclear as to how the MC works in the Equal or Whole House Systems, with this bizarre statement, in bold, that somehow attempts to clear it up. That statement does not do it for me. No one as of yet has been able to explain it to me. Ah well.

Interestingly, Placidus was popularized as a reaction to the current trend of heliocentrism going on during the Scientific Revolution in Europe, by none other than the Catholic Church. (So even those who believe astrology is a work of the devil and goes against Christ can still use Placidus, nice.)

Placidus is the most recent form of house systems. Hellenistic Astrology, beginning in the 1st and 2nd centuries BCE, used Whole House. Equal House became popularized later on, and Placidus, as I said, is the most recent and modern of the house systems. There are issues with it, namely the issues with house size as the latitude increases or decreases significantly from the equator.

I like that Placidus is geocentric. While our solar system is obviously not (right guys, right? we orbit the sun I think...), we are BORN on the earth, not the Sun. Our center, our grounding, is in the Earth. So our experience of the stars if from our place on the Earth. We are reaching for the Sun, the Moon, etc.


At least, those are my thoughts.


mod.
Hi Mod Cleo!

Yeah, I notice that sometimes the explanations are terrible. Well, from my understanding, Whole Sign and Equal consider the MC and 10th to be directly related, but not necessarily the same. The 10th retains it's significance, but the MC adds 'individualism', by having a position of it's own. It can fall in the 9th-11/12th, not sure if it's limit is the 11th or 12th my bad! So whatever is going on with your 10th, having MC in 9th adds an element of affairs of that house, e.g. travel, work related to teaching, religion, philosophy etc. while having it in the 11th involves a more ideas-driven career, society or perhaps involve friends. Having the MC point in the 10th re-doubles career ambition and suggests a success-hungry personality which places world-achievement likely above all else.

These are very basic interps. of course which I'm just doing to fill in where Wiki should have. I think the above will show how it works. I'm interested in your ideas about helio vs geo-centric perspectives. I don't think I've considered the systems from that angle before, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of this debate!

Astrologer50's point on Placidus house-skewing is all-too clear for me, a number of my houses are shrunk drastically and a number enlarged. So that continues to be a perhaps fatal flaw in Placidus, the solution?
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  #78  
Unread 02-27-2010, 04:09 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

w
Quote:
hile having it in the 11th involves a more ideas-driven career, society or perhaps involve friends.
I don't feel having MC in my 11th suggests career or involves friends or even large organisations. The sign MC is just as important in Equal as in any other house system. I have never seen an MC in 12th or 7th, so maybe just 8,9,10,11th houses.

MC is same as MC in ANY house system. Having the starting point of 10th house cusp is just as important has the starting point of any house cusp 2,3,5,6th etc.

http://www.astrolozy.com/article19.asp

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z...0house&f=false
page 168 onwards.

"-Margaret Hone puts forth an excellent argument in favor of Equal House in her book, "Applied Astrology" which is why it is the default for SkyViewZone.
Jeff Mayo and the Faculty for Astrological Studies also favors this house system."
http://www.skyviewzone.com/birthinfo...sexplained.htm

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrolo...rial/hone.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Hone

"Margaret Hone, Charles Carter, and others founded an educating body called the The Faculty of Astrological Studies in 1948 in England. Carter was the first principal, succeeded by Hone, who was herself succeeded by Jeff Mayo. And while the FAS doesn't today call itself a teaching body as Hone and Carter did in the 1950s and 1960s, its courses are available online through Deb Houlding's excellent site. The course of study is operated by other thoughtful English astrologers. The Astrological Association they cofounded there ten years later still exists."

Floating MC issue

"The issue of the Midheaven (MC) often not being aligned with the 10th house in the equal-houses system is often cited. The Midheaven is considered a point of ambition and reknown, and some find it essential for it to be associated with the 10th house which deals with career and public image."
http://www.astrologyindepth.com/House#Floating_MC_issue

"I prefer the Equal House system, for several rea­sons. For example, it matches the sizes of the Zodiac signs, which are equal, and it is the oldest system, supported already by Ptolemy. Furthermore, it keeps the aspecting relations between the Houses intact - a relation that helps a lot in understanding the Houses and interpreting them in the chart."
http://www.horoscoper.net/astrology/houses.htm

Last edited by astrologer50; 02-27-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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  #79  
Unread 02-27-2010, 04:33 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by RockFish View Post
I'm willing to research more deeply. I'll stick with Placidus for now, but I have to get my lazy self to look for the origins of each system. I think this will help, I really need to know the reasoning behind each system and then decide which one seems more plausible according to my own points of view on astrology.


With the little I know, Equal makes a lot of theoretical sense, but Placidus has been accurate so far. Mind still bogged.
So how's the research going? Anything new, anything strange?
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  #80  
Unread 02-27-2010, 05:44 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

“Grant Lewi used the Equal house system. Some twentieth century English astrologers promoted it because it did away with the great extremes of house sizes at latitudes far from the equator. It's also found in many traditional systems. But, since houses are measured in equal 30 degree arcs from the Ascendant, the Midheaven is excluded from the house building equation. I like Rudhyar's idea that we must include the Midheaven (vertical axis or "spine" of the chart) because "we don't live lying down."
http://www.stariq.com/Main/Articles/P0001054.htm

“Equal house system is the only system that is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit. The zodiac is erected in the plane of the Earths orbit around the Sun which comprises of a 360 degree circle that surrounds the Earth. The mid-heaven is often more, or less than ninety degrees (three signs) from the ascendant, therefore it is not often placed on the tenth house cusp, but marked where it appears in the mid-heaven according to the latitude and longitude of birth. The mid-heaven is taken as an important point; it is the point of self-mastery.”
http://marianneohagan.com/house.htm

“The simplest approaches, the equal-house and whole-sign methods, merely require knowledge of the ascendant or ascending sign, and an equal division throughout the rest of the zodiac eliminates the need for any complicated calculations
Yet recent research into classical astrology has created a renewed interest in these simple techniques from a more scholarly perspective. The point of strength is that, regardless of the originating theory behind house division, in practice at least, classical astrologers tended to tie the houses to the signs, apparently concurring with Pelletier, who wrote in defence of the equal house method”
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/houprob4.html

Last edited by astrologer50; 02-27-2010 at 06:31 PM.
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  #81  
Unread 02-27-2010, 06:09 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
I have never seen an MC in 12th or 7th, so maybe just 8,9,10,11th houses.
You may never see chart with the MC in the 12th or 7th unless you have the chart of someone born in a place like this:

http://www.trondheim.com/content.ap?thisId=1117609752

Then, if the AC is close to 0 Capricorn, the MC will be in the 12th.
If the AC is close to 0 Cancer, the MC will be in the 7th.
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  #82  
Unread 02-27-2010, 09:14 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

“The equal house system calculates the degree of the Ascendant, which is used as the cusp of the first house. Some astrologers do not like this system because it does not equate the 10th house cusp with the Midheaven (which indicates the degree that is highest in the sky above the horizon at the place of birth). However, the Midheaven can certaintly still be noted in this house system as well as any planet forming an aspect to that angle.”

http://www.astrolady.com/housesystems.php
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  #83  
Unread 02-28-2010, 04:38 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Byjove,

By jove, you've done it! You've finally explained to me just what the MC actually means in whole house/equal house. It also gave me lots of food for thought. Delish!

Thank-you.

Now, I seem to rather like the potentials of these house systems. I ran my own chart in those house systems, and saw some changes which I could agree with. Of course, I also find Placidus still valid, but also the K.P. method someone else spoke of. That one produced unique results that placed me in the middle of Equal House and Placidus. Indeed fascinating.

I'm curious why Placidus is the default? I mean, I have found this to be the case in some of the computerized readings I've received, a reading from a live astrologer, and of course, astro.com.

Now, as far as my position about Placidus and geocentrism... as I understand it. The other models place the Sun as the center, and treat planet placements in relationship to the Sun as the center. Essentially you're looking at say Venus, from the Sun's perspective when the chart is drawn that way. Astronomically accurate of course, and if you are perhaps very dedicated to the Sun as one's center, this may not bother you too much.

But then my deal is this: we are born on the Earth. Our perspective and experience is with the Earth as our center. (Hence why we used to think of it that way.) We experience say, Venus, from the Earth, not from the Sun. We see Venus from the Earth's perspective. Our lives are produced by our earthly existence. (Even if you're visiting other planes, your body, your ego, your memories, etc, are with you because of your time here on Earth.) So to me, it makes more sense to start with the Earth, and then look to the planets and the Sun. We also actualize our astrology on the Earthly plane, not on the Solar one. That is our vision, our desired manifestation, the center which we aim for. At least that's how I see it. Essentially, I believe the stars compel, not impel. When we place ourselves on Earth, and treat that as our perspective, we allow space for free will vs. fate. Astrology is not our destiny, but a discussion, a story if you will, about our experiences. It makes more sense, to me at least, to begin with the Earth as my center. I am an Earthling, looking to the stars for guidance. I am not on the Sun, examining another me on Earth. Ok maybe I am, but I have a lot of Capricorn, so I like the first example because it seems more practical.

Anyway, Placidus, as I said, is Earth Centered (just like the Catholic Church wanted it), and while for a lot of reasons I can't believe I'm saying this, I prefer to look at my experience that way. I am but an insect, and my world revolves around me as that little bug.

mod.

Quote:
Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Hi Mod Cleo!

Yeah, I notice that sometimes the explanations are terrible. Well, from my understanding, Whole Sign and Equal consider the MC and 10th to be directly related, but not necessarily the same. The 10th retains it's significance, but the MC adds 'individualism', by having a position of it's own. It can fall in the 9th-11/12th, not sure if it's limit is the 11th or 12th my bad! So whatever is going on with your 10th, having MC in 9th adds an element of affairs of that house, e.g. travel, work related to teaching, religion, philosophy etc. while having it in the 11th involves a more ideas-driven career, society or perhaps involve friends. Having the MC point in the 10th re-doubles career ambition and suggests a success-hungry personality which places world-achievement likely above all else.

These are very basic interps. of course which I'm just doing to fill in where Wiki should have. I think the above will show how it works. I'm interested in your ideas about helio vs geo-centric perspectives. I don't think I've considered the systems from that angle before, and I don't think I'll ever get tired of this debate!

Astrologer50's point on Placidus house-skewing is all-too clear for me, a number of my houses are shrunk drastically and a number enlarged. So that continues to be a perhaps fatal flaw in Placidus, the solution?
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  #84  
Unread 02-28-2010, 04:43 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
With placidus and very high latitudes it screws around with the houses too much. For example it moves my stellium of planets for fourth to second and that really affects the whole chart and it's intrepretations.

I was born in UK and at certain times of the night when aqu and pisces are rising it seems to really mess around with the size of the houses disproportionally. Placidus seems ok if there are hardly any movements of planets, but when there are huge differences that's when your own discernments are important, cos as I said earlier to have to analayse which glove fits...
I dont like skewed houses either than occur near the poles for instance.
I use equal or whole sign system as it gives a more even distribution but that may be my Libran planets talking. I am fortunate in that no house system changes anything very much in my chart. Years of watching transits and progressions to your planets in the various houses will give you a clue to what works for you.
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  #85  
Unread 02-28-2010, 04:48 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
“The equal house system calculates the degree of the Ascendant, which is used as the cusp of the first house. Some astrologers do not like this system because it does not equate the 10th house cusp with the Midheaven (which indicates the degree that is highest in the sky above the horizon at the place of birth). However, the Midheaven can certaintly still be noted in this house system as well as any planet forming an aspect to that angle.”

http://www.astrolady.com/housesystems.php
I tend to agree that the MC is connected to the 10th house and any time it strays too far away from that high point is not valid in my view. Most systems use the ascendant as the crucial point for the rest of the chart and the asc, desc. MC and IC angles remain the same even when the other house cusps may vary. The time of birth delineates the chart and makes it unique.
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  #86  
Unread 02-28-2010, 11:46 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Well said Mod Cleo, and I have to say this kind of material is invigorating this thread...the expansion of materials and ideas and the extra viewpoints not only keeps it relevant but widens it's ability to guide or explain...very good, I like this one!

As for Placidus, I like your argument Mod Cleo, I'm sold! But, my houses are very uneven in Placidus, and I've been reluctant to accept Placidus before now because it's interpretations are too flattering for me to handle...

I've been doing plenty of research on the three main systems mentioned in this thread and am happy to read on. Also, someone mentioned before that they liked Placidus too but were unsure about something: look for Solar Arcs, that may help!
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  #87  
Unread 02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

I'm glad that argument worked for you Byjove! Perhaps others will like it too. From what I have read I have yet to see another argument like that one. I guess because the whole idea of the Earth as the Center is well, kind of out of fashion.

Anyway, just as the Earth being the Center of the Universe is flattering, so too is your Placidus Chart! Interestingly enough my Equal House Chart is quite alleviating to read. My whole house, though a bit confusing (so is my ASC just an extra-defined point, like the MC?), is interesting to me, because it places Libra in my 10th house, as opposed to Scorpio with Pluto. Equal House just shoves those two qualities down towards the 11th house cusp. The Scorpio 10th house seems to fit more, but that could be because I've spent my whole life conceptualizing myself that way, and because Mars as the traditional ruler is, for my solar return this year, currently in the 10th house.

Ah well. I will try solar arcs. Good idea.

Any thoughts as to why Placidus became the default? Anyone?

mod.
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  #88  
Unread 02-28-2010, 04:25 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Well Mod Cleo,

I think I can help you again. The only reason I've come across anywhere for the original popularity of Placidus is because it was the most available at the time. I believe it was very expensive (probably because of the time-consumption) to have calculations made, so other calculations weren't popular. Ease of calculation and low-cost, such as that of today enables that. Anything I've read about that time said Placidus de Tito was a very influential person at the time, and when he started using that method, it rolled.

What time did the Catholic Church start persecuting astrologers? Did the Placidus calculation thrive as the oppression was lifting? Because anything popular then would be uplifted...

Of course the above isn't drenched with details, I'm sure there will be others who can fill in the gaps, but that's as much as I know about why Placidus took off in such popularity, and it seems to continue today mostly because of wide-spread use, which has always been my primary reason for investigating alternative house systems...
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Unread 02-28-2010, 08:54 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Hi again Byjove,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question!

It appears that ease of Placidus is directly related to economics. Oh how telling!

I am not precisely sure when the Catholic Church began persecuting astrologers, but I know that, according to the wikipedia article (a chancy source at best, I know), that around the time of the push towards Heliocentrism (forgive me, but perhaps the 1700s? Scientific Revolution?), the Catholic Church got pretty upset.

As I know, Catholicism has both shaped and blasted astrology, perhaps for its pagan roots. True to form however, and in a desire to maintain control (just speaking in terms of history, not meant as a jab to anyone), when it found the opportunity to continue to push geocentrism, it went for it, even if it meant using astrology to do so.

So I think, Byjove, the Catholic Church, used astrology when it was practical to do so (when the Placidus model came about and functioned in terms of geocentrism), and then blasted it when it wasn't (the earlier heliocentric models such as Equal House and Whole House). The Catholic Church undoubtedly had a hand in the popularity of Placidus.


Oh my, my my, just another case of "doing it cause everyone else was doing it and because the Church said it was OK."



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Unread 03-08-2010, 08:49 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Wow!

I just had a look at Johnny Depp's chart (I've become fascinated by his odd nature, and found the natal sun/saturn trine I hoped for) but I just noticed how even looking his houses look with Placidus....is everyone else's houses as even? I'm going to snoop on here to check...I had no idea by comparisson, that mine in
Placidus were really that skewed...wow. Oh oh, maybe back to equal just for the
sake of fixing that?
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  #91  
Unread 03-08-2010, 09:56 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
Wow!

I just had a look at Johnny Depp's chart (I've become fascinated by his odd nature, and found the natal sun/saturn trine I hoped for) but I just noticed how even looking his houses look with Placidus....is everyone else's houses as even? I'm going to snoop on here to check...I had no idea by comparisson, that mine in
Placidus were really that skewed...wow. Oh oh, maybe back to equal just for the sake of fixing that?
You live at a much higher latitude and have an AC that is closer to 0 Cancer.
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  #92  
Unread 03-09-2010, 02:53 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by byjove View Post
So how's the research going? Anything new, anything strange?
I found a very very good text, I'm not sure if it is widely known or not, but it is a novelty to me:

http://www.smoe.org/arcana/diss1.html

I found this in chapter two:

Quote:
The planets may radiate influences, the signs of the zodiac modify them, but the mundane houses relate the influences to a particular time and place, which usually means to a particular individual. This practice was probably invented by Greeks, since it assumes a spherical earth. This is done by extending the planes of the individual's horizon and meridian until they cut the zodiac, dividing it into four sections.
It seems the idea of houses stemed from the importance attributed to rising and setting planets. The very first astro-texts we have (dating some centuries B.C.) actually seem to give a lot of importance to such planetary positions, and/or whether planets are visible (above the horizon). Later on, these points, AC, DC and MC turned into the backbone over which people would draw a chart. It isn't hard to see how people would see great meaning in rising and setting planets, since the idea of rising and setting as image and metaphor to life and death, to awakening and sleeping, has always been very strong. Not to mention how the ancient peoples considered planets to be Gods and followed their movements with respect and care, for example, praising the Sun when it would come out.

Later on, they would not only cut a chart with the four cardinal points, but subdivided the four slices into three parts each, possibly in order to built a correlation between the twelve signs and twelve houses, although we can't be sure. How each of these parts came to be, for example, "house of siblings" or "house of children" is an information that probably no one possesses and will always be open to especulation.

The cardinal points are used in order to cast a chart according to the place and time it represents (birth or event). So the four points actually come from a concrete need, the need to cast an accurate chart that represents the specificities of the location in a certain hour, the look of the sky in the place and moment of birth. As for the succedent and cadent houses, I still don't see how they actually represent something vaguely tangible like top of the sky, or eastern and western horizon; they are divisions that "represent human experience" and their origins are rather obscure; therefore it all seems very random to me.

I realize this post didn't touch the issue of house systems, it ended up as some questioning of the existence of houses in general.

From personal experience, I've seen houses can be very accurate, but that is empirism, which is valid, but not what I was looking for here.

Still looking, will post if I find something else,

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  #93  
Unread 03-09-2010, 03:16 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Anyway, Placidus, as I said, is Earth Centered (just like the Catholic Church wanted it), and while for a lot of reasons I can't believe I'm saying this, I prefer to look at my experience that way. I am but an insect, and my world revolves around me as that little bug.
Actually, the catholics shot what they saw and hit what they didn't see.

Horoscopes have to be human-centered and, like someone else said above, we inhabit the Earth, so, is seems astrology it the only activity in which their geocentric ways were actually fitting.

What use is there for a heliocentric astrology, if none of us was unlucky enough to be born on the exploding surface of the Sun?
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Unread 03-09-2010, 09:59 AM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Oh no! More questioning!

Please let there be a strong hand that comes down and makes a firm decision for
me...! My head was raging last night while sleeping trying figure out which house system would 'fix' the skewed Placidus chart (some houses are 45 DEGREES!! So the 11th & 5th take up a QUARTER of the chart alone).

And if there's a full move to a different system, I lose my bright lights in the 10th (and feel less special) and gain more 9th (time to pack the bags).

And if I ask my mother about my birth one more time, she'll probably just starting
making it up to just give me an answer, or disown me

(insert higher intervention here: )
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Unread 03-09-2010, 04:20 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

Hello Byjove et. al,

How do people feel about Whole House vs. Equal House?

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Unread 03-09-2010, 05:31 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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I agree with and it is a very vexed question. For me personally there is not a whole lot of difference with the various methods and in that I am fortunate. The MC IC Ascendant and Descendant all remain the same and that is important.
Actually, that's not true. The Asc stays the same but the MC/IC will change with different house systems. This is the one problem I have with equal and whole house systems.

Edit: what I meant to say is the "house cusp" changes with equal and whole, meaning the IC/MC would be different from the 4th/10th house, obviously the MC is still there within the house. What I wonder then, is the house cusp on the 4/10th just as important then as the MC/IC? Does anyone know??

Last edited by Vista; 03-09-2010 at 06:23 PM.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 06:47 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by Vista View Post
Actually, that's not true. The Asc stays the same but the MC/IC will change with different house systems. This is the one problem I have with equal and whole house systems.

Edit: what I meant to say is the "house cusp" changes with equal and whole, meaning the IC/MC would be different from the 4th/10th house, obviously the MC is still there within the house. What I wonder then, is the house cusp on the 4/10th just as important then as the MC/IC? Does anyone know??
It is NOT as important MC/IC but just as important as 2nd, 3rd, 5, 6th etc. THE most important thing to remember is IF planets move houses due to Equal or unequal house systems.

IF one person (like myself) has stellium in taurus in 4th, then in placidus it moves them TWO whole houses into 2nd house -- this is a major difference, for which there has been many a discussion on here and nothing will convince me that my stellium should be in 2nd house. I'm a home bird, work from home, live and breath family. Love to entertain (venus in 4th) like a beautiful home to, have expensive tastes (as all taureans do). Mercury in 4th communications to and from home, everything in my chart points to 4th house......
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Unread 03-09-2010, 07:08 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

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Originally Posted by astrologer50 View Post
It is NOT as important MC/IC but just as important as 2nd, 3rd, 5, 6th etc. THE most important thing to remember is IF planets move houses due to Equal or unequal house systems.

IF one person (like myself) has stellium in taurus in 4th, then in placidus it moves them TWO whole houses into 2nd house -- this is a major difference, for which there has been many a discussion on here and nothing will convince me that my stellium should be in 2nd house. I'm a home bird, work from home, live and breath family. Love to entertain (venus in 4th) like a beautiful home to, have expensive tastes (as all taureans do). Mercury in 4th communications to and from home, everything in my chart points to 4th house......
Astrologer50, thank you for the response. I see what you are saying and that makes sense. In the case with my chart, Whole house system shows the most change in my chart, and really that only move two of my planets into different houses.
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Unread 03-09-2010, 08:27 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

that's why only proper analysis and investigation will help unravel 'where' this or that planet 'expresses' itself properly....
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Unread 01-07-2014, 08:17 PM
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Re: Equal house or Placidus?

I find that placidus is more accurate than equal house for me, especially in regards to my moon and jupiter's placement. I originally started with equal house, but I always had trouble with an inacurracy with my moon in 10th. Under the placidus system, the moon is actually in my 11th house, which matches me much better. There are several other differences caused by placidus, but this one stands out the most to me.
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